Lawful Good Nazi

[Wise Green Bean]

So I'm thinking it over, and trying to figure exactly where a character fits in terms of alignment. He is a member of a secret police in a place very much like Nazi Germany. He hates the racial minority, fully believes they are sub-human, and believes they deliberately sabotage his country, are out to destroy it. This isn't the case, but it's what he is told and it's what he believes. So his job is to break into the homes of this minority, drag them away in the middle of the night, and turn them in for questioning and potential execution to the legitimate government. He sees no problem with this, believes he is doing a service to the community that he loves. In his everyday life, he's a good guy. He has a day job, puts most of his income towards supporting his family. His father died in the army during a war related to the ethnic struggle. So as much as it rubs to think of a good Nazi, is that what he is? LG? He doesn't understand he's bringing innocents to their deaths, he's not doing it for revenge. What do you think?

[hoverfrog]

Certainly lawful as he is obeying the commands of the law and serving the community.

I think it helps to put this into context though.

You're a dwarf and you live in a highly structured dwarven society run by just laws. Everything works well and most people are happy. Somehow goblins have infiltrated your society. These deceiving, violent, thieves prey on the weak, cause disruption in your beautiful country, despoil the land, etc. Is it not your duty to drive these goblins away? They aren't human beings, they are barely more than wild animals and your society would be better off without them.

When it is dwarves and goblins there isn't really an issue but when it's Germans and German Jews (both obvious human to out 21st century sensibilities) it becomes less clear cut. I think that you could have a case to call yourself Lawful Good because as far as you are aware then people you are "removing" are no more than goblins.

When you make that revelation that they are more than that then you probably would feel in need of some atonement.

[Endelehia]

He strikes me more as LN.You said it yourself,"he doesn't understand that he is bringing innocents to their deaths",rather he is blindingly following the law. That means he hasn't a developed sense of morality regarding human lives other than his fellow countrymen.
In the end intentions and beliefs are not enough to deem an act as good.Like the known quote says "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

[Killer Angel]

He doesn't understand he's bringing innocents to their deaths, he's not doing it for revenge. What do you think?

this kind of misunderstanding will last very shortly. When you start dragging away from their homes crying peoples, when you divide children from their mothers, when they cry their innocence and ask you to help them for the love of your god, a LG will start questioning its task.
That, or very soon you'll be LN... for a starter.



I think it helps to put this into context though.

You're a dwarf and you live in a highly structured dwarven society run by just laws. Everything works well and most people are happy. Somehow goblins have infiltrated your society. These deceiving, violent, thieves prey on the weak, cause disruption in your beautiful country, despoil the land, etc. Is it not your duty to drive these goblins away? They aren't human beings, they are barely more than wild animals and your society would be better off without them.


It's the same. You could need more time, but sooner or later a real LG will ask itself if ALL those goblins are really so evil...

[Hanuman]

LE

{Scrubbed}

Gods don't freaking care about philosophy, only that the player is intending their actions or not. Alignment is cosmic law.

There is no mens rea for an accident, that's the only concern of intentions to the player as it applies and victim of circumstance is subject to grace (when or if it applies), not exception.

Anyway, nazis have a disrespect for life and a gratification of ego and super-ego of actions that cause suffering to innocent sentient creatures.

LE

[Incorrect]

LG would be to try and find a peaceful solution. Perhaps finding the minority another place to live.

I would say that this is LN. He is clearly using force against the defenseless by dragging people out of their homes at night. I assume that he is delivering them to a reasonably fair interrogation and trial.


But he is not out right killing them, that would be evil, at least they have a chance of surviving the interrogations if they are not part of the resistance or whatever.

[hamishspence]

"Neutral people have compunctions against harming the innocent"- PHB. This guy doesn't seem to- though it's unwillingness to admit that his victims are "the innocent".

Still, judging beings by "what they are", rather than "what they've done" is a hallmark of LE.

[Hanuman]

^hamishspence always knows what he's talking about for alignments

[hoverfrog]

Still, judging beings by "what they are", rather than "what they've done" is a hallmark of LE.As far as the Nazi guy is concerned they've done bad things though. After all they deliberately sabotage his country, are out to destroy it. It isn't just that they're short and ugly and have green skin.

[Rejakor]

There were Lawful Good germans in the german armed forces in WWII.

In the Heer, in the Luftwaffe, and in the Kriegsmarine, there are documented cases of people I would definitely call Lawful Good, straight up, no holds barred. And this is me, I very much doubt any more than 0.01% of the population is Lawful Good.

There might have been some in the SS at the start of the war, but as time went on and the SS became more obviously Evil, the Lawful Good people tended to get weeded out, because even the densest guy could see the obvious evil and cruelty occurring, and as time went on even the Lawful Good guys in the Heer/Luftwaffe/Kriegsmarine started getting weeded out/shot etc.

So yeah, it's totally plausible to play some guy who slowly realizes that the orders he's being given are evil and rebels against that.

[awa]

thing is your also doing it to children who could not possibly be undermining the nation and all that and even if they were they wouldn't be guilty of it.

so like some other people he might be lawfully good for a little while but he will either realize what is going on and either stop or change alignment.
becuase at some point the punishment is worse then the crime (even if the crime was real)

the dwarf analogy is flawed becuase the goblins only recently snuck into the dwarf city where as the jew analogs have been there for generations.

If hes preconceptions are more important to him then doing the right thing he will also change alignment. I suppose if he was intensely stupid he could get away with it.

anyway even if you ignore the minority issue a nazi knock off would be doing enough unrelated evil things to cause it's supporters to fall anyways.

for example depending on the nature of the "questioning" that might be enough to lose the good alignment right their.

[DigoDragon]

LN if he's clueless about what his job is doing with innocent people and just does the job without question. LE if he knows what's going on.

[Analytica]

I agree, this guy is either LN or LE, or otherwise LG with a very poor Wisdom score who does not actually reflect over their everyday experiences but interprets everything according to his set of preconceived notions. By which I mean _very_ poor Wisdom score, like 6.

[Roland St. Jude]

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