Most useless things in 3.5 in terms of powergaming.

[Morithias]

I'm looking for new stuff to experiment on after my experiment with the business rules.

So far I've experimented on the following.

- Monk
- Truenamer
- Business Rules

Anything else you people can think of that's really quite useless in terms of power? I like to experiment with the weak stuff, cause well. Anyone can break a chain-gating wizard you know.

[Zombimode]

- Truenamer


Try playing a single classed Marshall. Then play a single classed Truenamer. Then, I dare you, come back here and say that a Truenamer is useless.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Commoner, unless you are chicken infested or into basket weaving.

[Diovid]

Try playing a single classed Marshall. Then play a single classed Truenamer. Then, I dare you, come back here and say that a Truenamer is useless.
A Marshal optimizing social skills and utilizing Leadership wouldn't be that bad actually.

As for the topic at hand: traps, non-magical ones that is.

[nedz]

Any non casters :smallbiggrin:

Take a look at Dragon Shaman some time, or Healer.

[Wise Green Bean]

Monk is plenty useful. Just not alone, and not for more than a few levels. Carmendine monk is great for wizard gishes. And a few levels of monk can be quite good for lots of other builds.

[Alabenson]

The Toughness feat.

Even back when I was just starting out, when I thought monks were awesome and druids and bards were underpowered, I knew that Toughness was worthless.

[Slipperychicken]

Skill Focus: (Speak Language). I saw it on a "Worst Feat Ever" thread. It literally has no effect, because there are no Speak Language checks in the entire game.

Focused Lexicon (feat): Increases your Truenaming DCs by +2. Not the Save DCs, the Truenaming DCs. Yes, you can spend a feat to be make Truenaming even harder for yourself.

[HunterOfJello]

Focused Lexicon (feat): Increases your Truenaming DCs by +2. Not the Save DCs, the Truenaming DCs. Yes, you can spend a feat to be make Truenaming even harder for yourself.

That may be the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. There's nothing better than kicking someone while they're already down.

~

Also, an optimized Marshall could be a somewhat interesting character in a group of 5+ people. The class would be much improved if they got to use multiple minor auras at once over time like the Binder gets multiple vestiges. I think that it could be much improved as a buffer class for a group with a few homebrew changes or homebrewfeat allowances. It's still great as a dip though. I'm powerfully tempted to dip into it on my Sorcerer//Druid since I'd get +16 to overcome SR on all my spells.

[BowStreetRunner]

Has anyone ever used the CW Samurai class? Just about every samurai build I have ever encountered didn't actually use this class.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Has anyone ever used the CW Samurai class? Just about every samurai build I have ever encountered didn't actually use this class.

Takahashi no Onisan by ShneekeyTheLost (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726) and his legendary duel with Beardfist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125885)

(Be sure to read the notes in Takahashi's sheet)

[Rejakor]

So many more classes can optimize diplo/leadership than the marshal, and better (binder, any caster, any incarnum character, rogue, etc), and they can do it trivially, without having to invest their entire class into it. The Truenamer is literally better than the Marshal, except for a dip for cha to init.

Also Monk is actually useful in 'powergaming' for a 2 level dip for feats and evasion.

Shadowcaster is useless.

Swashbuckler is relatively useless.

most faerun stuff

wilder is useless comparatively

lurk is pretty terrible

soulborn is useless

[StreamOfTheSky]

Any non casters :smallbiggrin:

Hey! Fighters have a use!

The wizards take them out to the battlefields of the abyss to power-level to 14, Diablo-style, to harvest pieces of their equipment as material components for the Heroics spell. :smalltongue:

Why not just learn Eschew Materials?

When reached for comment, a spokesperson for the wizard guild simply said, "this is easier."
:D

[RFLS]

Acolyte of the Skin. Possibly the most worthless PrC out there.

[Ingus]

Focused Lexicon (feat): Increases your Truenaming DCs by +2. Not the Save DCs, the Truenaming DCs. Yes, you can spend a feat to be make Truenaming even harder for yourself.

Nothing can beat this. My vote would have gone to Truenamer, but this feat bring sucking to a very next level.
Pure genius: take the worst class ever and make it suck just a little more. Just for fun. In your face, optimizers!

Edit: It sucks even fluff-wise. Your power is solely based on speech and when you learn to speak more fluently... well, it got worst.
Basicly, it says that Truenaming is all about gibberish and trash talk.
(Uh, maybe Sylvester Stallone is the greatest truenamer ever)

[JKTrickster]

Dear lord why do WoTC have such terrible grammar when it comes to these things?

It's like no one bothered to look over their stuff for clarity....

[Blisstake]

Acolyte of the Skin. Possibly the most worthless PrC out there.

I don't know, the Blighter gives it some serious competition...

[nedz]

I don't know, the Blighter gives it some serious competition...

Oh - if its bad PrCs your looking for, we can start with:
Dwarven Defender, Arcane Archer, Order of the Bow Initiate.

[Hanuman]

Saintly Warforged Monk with Vow of Poverty

WF
—Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, effects that cause
the sickened condition, and energy drain.

—A warforged does not need to eat, sleep, or
breathe

SAINT (2 levels of XP, which you can pay in the future, essentially +0)
-Immune to petrification, cold, electricity and lightning AND fire res 10

-60'DV

-At-Will FREE ACTION 20'r double-strength circle against evil + globe of invulnerability that emits light

-Fast Healing 1/2 your HD

-AC Bonus = To Wisdom

-ALL SAVE DC's INCREASED BY +2

-+1d6 Melee vs evil

-DR5 @ low level DR10 @mid level

-+2 con and wis +4cha

VoP

-bonus feat every 2 levels

-at level 1 +4AC bonus, +1 every 2 levels

-enough ability score enhancement to make the pointbuy DM weep

-bonus to melee attacks of about +1 every 5 levels

-Freedom of movement (Ex) at level 14

-Regeneration and True-Seeing at high level

[GreenSerpent]

So many more classes can optimize diplo/leadership than the marshal, and better (binder, any caster, any incarnum character, rogue, etc), and they can do it trivially, without having to invest their entire class into it. The Truenamer is literally better than the Marshal, except for a dip for cha to init.

Also Monk is actually useful in 'powergaming' for a 2 level dip for feats and evasion.

Shadowcaster is useless.

Swashbuckler is relatively useless.

most faerun stuff

wilder is useless comparatively

lurk is pretty terrible

soulborn is useless

Evidently you've never played a Truenamer.
I will agree Monk is useful for a 2 level dip, but not much more than that. 2 levels in Monk can add some useful abilities.

Shadowcaster may seem useless, but it's a solid tier 3/4. Decent skill list, mysteries are actually pretty good (and very strong in the case of Shadow Time).

Swashbuckler is pretty poor, I'll admit.

Most Faerun stuff... look at Incantrix, Hathran, and Halruun Elder for a start. Or Divine Disciple, Runescarred Berserker, Spelldancer... the list goes on.

Lurk... isn't too terrible, but was made obsolete by Psychic Rogue and Psychic Assassin.

Soulborn needs fixing, I'll agree on that.

[eggs]

Shadowcaster is useless.

most faerun stuff

wilder is useless comparatively

lurk is pretty terrible
Either you're setting an arbitrarily high bar for classes you don't like or you don't know what you're talking about.

EDIT: Or what GreenSerpent said.

[Alabenson]

Oh - if its bad PrCs your looking for, we can start with:
Dwarven Defender, Arcane Archer, Order of the Bow Initiate.

If you want truly ungodly horrible, look no further than Cryokineticist from Frostburn. It's as though WoTC looked at the Pyrokineticist and thought "hey, this is way too powerful, we need to nerf it stat!"

Every ability Cryokineticist has is numerically inferior to Pyrokineticist, on top of the fact that Cryokineticist has much steeper prereqs, thus ensuring that you're losing manifester levels when you take it, while Pyrokineticist could theoretically be taken by literally any class.

[Snowbluff]

3.5 Soulknife is yuck. I am still trying to figure out why I would play this over anything else. And I am one of the people who loves Starcraft!

[hotjer]

craft (basket weaving) -> optimize it with your business idea?

Take flaws and feats that decreases your will and fortitude saves

One level-dip in all the worst classes you can find

That is what came out top of my head.

[Silva Stormrage]

3.5 Soulknife is yuck. I am still trying to figure out why I would play this over anything else. And I am one of the people who loves Starcraft!

Pathfinder actually did a pretty good job fixing it. 3.5's version does suck horribly.

Truenamers are kind of odd for this. As they DON'T suck horribly with high optimization (I would put them better than CW Samurai worse than fighter and probably better than monk). But just are unplayable with low optimization.

Also as a side note I think commoner's are pretty bad unless you count Chicken Infested :smalltongue:

[Snowbluff]

optimization.

Also as a side note I think commoner's are pretty bad unless you count Chicken Infested :smalltongue:

Chicken Infested is blatantly overpowered, though. It has far too many applications for just about anybody.

[Silva Stormrage]

Chicken Infested is blatantly overpowered, though. It has far too many applications for just about anybody.

Still not many DM's allow Dragon so I don't always count it as 3.5. Though assuming it is allowed, Aristocrat sucks too :smalltongue:

[LTwerewolf]

most faerun stuff


Incantrix and planar shepherd would like a word.

[Alabenson]

Incantrix and planar shepherd would like a word.

Umm...Planar Shepard is Eberron, not Faerun.

You're right about the Incantrix, though.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Planar Shepherd is from Eberron though.

Edit: Swordsage'd

[Morithias]

craft (basket weaving) -> optimize it with your business idea?


Actually craft would be useless since it's a low risk business meaning it bring in profit mod times 5 gp instead of 50 gp for high risk.

Basically if you want to optimize business, you have to be a shopkeeper, NOTHING else works, except maybe tavern.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Swashbuckler is relatively useless.

Eh, not with Daring Outlaw.

[LTwerewolf]

Umm...Planar Shepard is Eberron, not Faerun.

You're right about the Incantrix, though.

So it is, my mistake, however the arcane devotee isn't a horrible PrC for a sorcerer.

[Malkav]

Healer.

Had a friend play a healer. It was really annoying as the DM.

[Amphetryon]

How did this get to Page 2 without Divine Mind coming up yet?

[Eldariel]

Shining Blade of Heironeous! Gain abilities you'd gain anyways as spells by giving up said spells! Glorious! Much like the Warpriest PRC; basically you just give up the normal way of gaining said abilities (and so much more) to gain just said abilities in an extremely restricted manner.

[nedz]

Had a friend play a healer. It was really annoying as the DM.

What ?
Why did you find it annoying ?
Suppose they had played a Cleric ?

[Venger]

Acolyte of the Skin. Possibly the most worthless PrC out there.

Ten people, (myself included) will disagree with you there. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252923) Maybe the Rag and Bone Man will change your mind, maybe not, but either way, it's far from the worst class in the game.


What ?
Why did you find it annoying ?
Suppose they had played a Cleric ?

this is why (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw)


having to modify the game for a really weak character is actually much harder than having to modify it for a really strong one. especially when they're in the same party.

[Doug Lampert]

Pathfinder actually did a pretty good job fixing it. 3.5's version does suck horribly.

Truenamers are kind of odd for this. As they DON'T suck horribly with high optimization (I would put them better than CW Samurai worse than fighter and probably better than monk). But just are unplayable with low optimization.

Also as a side note I think commoner's are pretty bad unless you count Chicken Infested :smalltongue:

Tier 6 is the tier for "this class hopelessly sucks" and includes the CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, and Commoner.

But Truenamer is the class WITHOUT a tier. It isn't in tier 6. Consequently it follows that the problem with the Truenamer is NOT that it hopelessly sucks, because there's a tier for that. Truenamer is better than commoner (baring chicken infested) after all.

The problem with Truenamer is that the scaling mechanism (truenamer check bonus) simply doesn't work as intended, it should go up by a fairly steady about +2 or +3 per level for the class to scale appropriately (+2 to keep up with DC's, +3 because sometimes you should get more powerful or reliable with level), instead it goes up by +1 per level, or +6 if you upgrade your item, or +N for item familiar, or +M for joining the whatever assembly, or +??? if you do something else, or +41 from level 20 to 21.

There are more than enough bonuses available, but when you get them and how big they are vary too much from campaign to campaign and character to character for the class to be properly classified.

That's quite appart from the typos, and mistakes, and ommisions, and poor writing like the feat that makes you worse, and...

But again, it isn't worthless, there's a tier for that and I don't think anyone seriously claims that truenamers belong in that tier.

DougL

[nedz]

having to modify the game for a really weak character is actually much harder than having to modify it for a really strong one. especially when they're in the same party.

I know this, and have experienced it - ironically with someone who normally plays a Wizard (Don't ask, yes a wizard can be T5). But if someone wants to play a healer, you just leave them too it. Having played similar characters I understand their shtick (long time ago, I'm over it now). For reference - go and watch the episode about the medic from Band of Brothers.

[God Imperror]

- Business Rules


A merchant prince / Legacy champion might beg to differ.

[Silva Stormrage]

Tier 6 is the tier for "this class hopelessly sucks" and includes the CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, and Commoner.

But Truenamer is the class WITHOUT a tier. It isn't in tier 6. Consequently it follows that the problem with the Truenamer is NOT that it hopelessly sucks, because there's a tier for that. Truenamer is better than commoner (baring chicken infested) after all.

The problem with Truenamer is that the scaling mechanism (truenamer check bonus) simply doesn't work as intended, it should go up by a fairly steady about +2 or +3 per level for the class to scale appropriately (+2 to keep up with DC's, +3 because sometimes you should get more powerful or reliable with level), instead it goes up by +1 per level, or +6 if you upgrade your item, or +N for item familiar, or +M for joining the whatever assembly, or +??? if you do something else, or +41 from level 20 to 21.

There are more than enough bonuses available, but when you get them and how big they are vary too much from campaign to campaign and character to character for the class to be properly classified.

That's quite appart from the typos, and mistakes, and ommisions, and poor writing like the feat that makes you worse, and...

But again, it isn't worthless, there's a tier for that and I don't think anyone seriously claims that truenamers belong in that tier.

DougL

I understand why the truenamer is so weak and it takes SERIOUS optimization to make truenaming semi useful. However, they DO get 3/4 BAB and UMD. UMD alone can make them more useful than a CW Samuri.

[shadow_archmagi]

Dear lord why do WoTC have such terrible grammar when it comes to these things?

It's like no one bothered to look over their stuff for clarity....

For the sake of fairness

1. Grammar is tricky stuff. It's easy for *us* to complain about the occasional mistake, but writing 400 pages of interlocking rules without anything contradicting anything isn't an easy task even for professionals.

2. WOTC isn't unique in this. Rogue Trader has piles of ordinary typos, and my group is starting to run into weird rules-lawyer hair-splitting grammar issues already. (Like the difference between one attack per turn and one attack per round)

[Eldariel]

1. Grammar is tricky stuff. It's easy for *us* to complain about the occasional mistake, but writing 400 pages of interlocking rules without anything contradicting anything isn't an easy task even for professionals.

They have, however, failed in checking it. Having written some articles myself, WoTC books should never pass quality control with how many simple mistakes they contain. All it takes is a bunch of people proofreading it and the mistakes are gone. I find it really surprising they've put basically no effort into that part especially when they employ a number of writers; somebody would need to make sure it's cohesive. There are amateur circles that do a better job with quality control than WotC does and that's kinda unforgivable for a multimillion dollar company.

[IdleMuse]

How did this get to Page 2 without Divine Mind coming up yet?

I played a Divine Mind/Ranger in a Psionic-only game with a cheesy Intimidate build.. I can't remember why I picked it over Psychic Warrior, but in a very specific application it didn't seem as awful as everyone makes out.

My pet peeve class is Favoured Soul, although it's obviously a high tier simply by nature of its spell list.

[RebelRogue]

Half-plate armor.

And appearantly the 'ta' syllable in incantatrix :smalltongue:

[Morithias]

A merchant prince / Legacy champion might beg to differ.

That's basically what the original one was. Open a shop in the middle of nowhere, use your optimized income to open more shops, and just keep multiplying shops.

Healer...healer isn't that bad...if you use sanctified spells and "mastery of day and night" (Free maximize on all cure spells. AWESOME)

[God Imperror]

That's basically what the original one was. Open a shop in the middle of nowhere, use your optimized income to open more shops, and just keep multiplying shops.

Then hire ALL the adventures in the world and ALL the monsters.


Healer...healer isn't that bad...if you use sanctified spells and "mastery of day and night" (Free maximize on all cure spells. AWESOME)

A cleric does it better (far better)... and a cleric with spontaneous healing domain / radiant servant of pelor 2 goes even further... Maximized empowered cure spells. Add combat medic for kickers and imbued healing / sovereign speaker to get loads of domains and effects.

[Amphetryon]

I played a Divine Mind/Ranger in a Psionic-only game with a cheesy Intimidate build.. I can't remember why I picked it over Psychic Warrior, but in a very specific application it didn't seem as awful as everyone makes out.


What did it have over Ardent, out of curiosity?

[legomaster00156]

That's basically what the original one was. Open a shop in the middle of nowhere, use your optimized income to open more shops, and just keep multiplying shops.
Let's play Fantasy Tycoon! :smallbiggrin:

[Medic!]

Has anyone ever used the CW Samurai class? Just about every samurai build I have ever encountered didn't actually use this class.

Ok, so TRUE STORY (That will probably make most of the community here cry, for which I claim double point bonus on this post)


If you're brave enough, step into my spoiler'd version of the Playground...in Bizarro world (where monks are cool, wizards are no more powerful than anyone else, and toughness can save your life)
So, there we were, in a planar mansion at level 14? I believe?

Our party, consisting of an Adamantine Holy Keen Vorpal Speed Fullblade wielding Paladin/Vassal of Bahamut (dude in his 30s), A VoP monk (me in my late 20s), I wanna say a rogue and a sorcerer maybe (a 10yr old and a teenager)? and our new swap-out character, a CW Samurai. (The player was playing a cleric, didn't like it, felt useless b/c he rolled less than 8 and didn't beat a dragon's SR one time, was a pretty emo guy all around. Guy in his late teens.)

I just wanna stop right here for a second and let all that soak in. Lotta DM fiat runnin 'round to be sure. In fact I'm 90% sure at this point we had already been getting loot from the Epic Level Handbook. The VoP monk was mine, and had turned down the offer of flight or some cool ability as "loot." The paladin and monk were overshadowing the rest of the party in a pretty hefty way since day 1 (pre-samurai).


ANYWHO There we were. We trek through the plane of Valhalla or w/e plane it is where you get some FH and are rez'd every time you die for free etc etc, continual war, good times. Suddenly we run into a Balor and a Pit Fiend, side by side. We're having a good time, the pizza is flowing, the dice are rolling. We're all family and this is how we spend friday nights. The encounter starts, and the Aura of Fear or w/e checks get rolled. Paladin - Immune ofc. Monk - Doesn't fail saves, ofc. Samurai - Immune. Rest of the party - Sprinting like madmen over the corpses we left behind us that day.

Round 1: Samurai gets SPLATTED like NASTY NASTY splatted. Like buried alive in an avalanche of damage dice and suffocated to death dead, but without the alive part. His contribution from here on out is fairly minimal and probably will be overlooked, if that's ok with everyone else.

The battle goes on, with the monk "off-tanking" the pit fiend while the paladin gets wailed on by the balor a bit, and in a round or two the monk and pally manage to kill the pit fiend. The next part of the fight was a flying clash between the paladin and the balor while the monk went "Whelp...I think I'll just hang out here on the ground like a cool-guy."

All of a sudden, SPLAT! The paladin comes crashing to the ground, a broken heap of dead (at -11 hp...toughness coulda saved his life), and the balor's still airborne going "MUHAHAHAHA" thinking OH MAN MONK CAN'T GET ME! The monk then makes his contribution to the balor's decreasing HP pool via Ki Blast (or as we affectionately referred to it: The Kamahamehahaha) wich was around 3d6+10-12ish damage on a 60ft ranged touch IIRC.

Balor dies.

This was upsetting enough to our paladin that he elected to retire the character, and use him as a back-story NPC in a later campaign.

Anywho that's my story about CW Samurais. Hope you enjoyed it. A little closure: The samurai's player never played that PC again either. Damn I loved that (elven, HA!) monk though.



You may now resume your normally scheduled programing.

[Morithias]

Let's play Fantasy Tycoon! :smallbiggrin:

If that's an actual game I want it. I love the tycoon series of games.

[legomaster00156]

If that's an actual game I want it. I love the tycoon series of games.
So far as I know, it is not. This is just what this Commoner's path to ultimate power looks like.

[eggs]

I remember Samurai coming up relatively often in early 3.5 gishes (for Raumathari Battlemage entry, and there was some part of its skill list that was advantageous over normal Fighter... Concentration, maybe?) and melee builds (for Exotic weapon master and the same skill angle for Kensai).

But even in the builds that play up its strengths, its abilities are even more easily outdone than the other token stinkers like Divine Mind and Soulknife (DM's Ectopic Ally is, well, something and their respective Hidden Talent ACFs can be useful in things like Warmind builds).

[Twilightwyrm]

Acolyte of the Skin. Possibly the most worthless PrC out there.

For casters, most definitely. For Warlocks, much less so actually.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Tier 6 is the tier for "this class hopelessly sucks" and includes the CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, and Commoner.

But Truenamer is the class WITHOUT a tier. It isn't in tier 6. Consequently it follows that the problem with the Truenamer is NOT that it hopelessly sucks, because there's a tier for that. Truenamer is better than commoner (baring chicken infested) after all.

The problem with Truenamer is that the scaling mechanism (truenamer check bonus) simply doesn't work as intended, it should go up by a fairly steady about +2 or +3 per level for the class to scale appropriately (+2 to keep up with DC's, +3 because sometimes you should get more powerful or reliable with level), instead it goes up by +1 per level, or +6 if you upgrade your item, or +N for item familiar, or +M for joining the whatever assembly, or +??? if you do something else, or +41 from level 20 to 21.

There are more than enough bonuses available, but when you get them and how big they are vary too much from campaign to campaign and character to character for the class to be properly classified.

That's quite appart from the typos, and mistakes, and ommisions, and poor writing like the feat that makes you worse, and...

But again, it isn't worthless, there's a tier for that and I don't think anyone seriously claims that truenamers belong in that tier.

DougL

Getting the truenamers truespeak check high enough to reliably activate his ability at least a couple of times per day is trivial even if all you have is core + ToM.

The notion that Truenamer requires a bachelor's degree in optimization to function is patently false.

It's somewhere around T4-5.

[Rejakor]

Eh, not with Daring Outlaw.

In terms of powergaming? Still useless.

There is nothing you want BAB for as a rogue that is worth taking levels in swashbuckler.

Even as a factotum a 3 level dip in swash for int to damage isn't really supportable at anything above tier 4.

The reason rogue is powerful is it gets lots of skillpoints and you can use skills to do things like be hidden forever and shoot wands at people, i.e. be a crappy casterficer.

Sneak Attack is not what makes it good and I wish people would stop thinking Sneak Attack is amazing. 1d6 = 3 damage. 3 VERY CONDITIONAL DAMAGE. Think of it as fire damage, if that helps you visualize conditional. You only get it about 1/2 the time assuming intelligent monsters, and about 1/3rd of the time assuming hard DMing. That's with flanking buddy, blink etc. Lots of stuff shuts it down, and you have to waste actions getting into position/getting ready to get it.


Daring Outlaw is great if you want to make a tier 4 swordfighter and don't want to do a lot of op.

Not exactly 'powergaming', though.

A 'powergamed' dex/int based swordfighter stays away from swashbuckler like the horrific dead cow it is.

[Rejakor]

For casters, most definitely. For Warlocks, much less so actually.

The only reason to play a warlock is the invocations.

Acolyte of the Skin doesn't advance invocations every other level.

In exchange you get some crappy NA, some crappy DR, and a crappy fear gaze.



Colour me ridiculously unimpressed.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Acolyte of the Skin. Possibly the most worthless PrC out there.

I disagree. It may be mostly useless, but the 100-foot, no save, 10 minute shaken on everybody is not bad, and the stat bonuses are... not unwelcome, at least. Poison 2/day is also okay.

It doesn't wow, by any stretch, but it's not terrible.


Ten people, (myself included) will disagree with you there. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252923) Maybe the Rag and Bone Man will change your mind, maybe not, but either way, it's far from the worst class in the game.

Ah, yes, there is the most recent Iron Chef. My entry was The Sacred Demon, if anybody cares to know.

[Rejakor]

Incantrix and planar shepherd would like a word.

That's why I said most.

Other than those jewels of design, most of it isn't worth spit and does essentially nothing.


Evidently you've never played a Truenamer.
I will agree Monk is useful for a 2 level dip, but not much more than that. 2 levels in Monk can add some useful abilities.

Shadowcaster may seem useless, but it's a solid tier 3/4. Decent skill list, mysteries are actually pretty good (and very strong in the case of Shadow Time).

Swashbuckler is pretty poor, I'll admit.

Most Faerun stuff... look at Incantrix, Hathran, and Halruun Elder for a start. Or Divine Disciple, Runescarred Berserker, Spelldancer... the list goes on.

Lurk... isn't too terrible, but was made obsolete by Psychic Rogue and Psychic Assassin.

Soulborn needs fixing, I'll agree on that.

Lurk gets to spend pp to do stuff that's incredibly underwhelming. Abilities don't interlock with anything else. Useless for powergaming. There was one thing where you dip lurk and use ardent to uncap something and then can do lots of ability damage or something, but that's so incredibly edge i'm going to ignore it.

Truenamer can be used for powergaming in incredibly obtuse ways, the marshal kind of can't. You can dip it for cha to init, but typically if you're using cha you don't want to be dipping stuff that doesn't advance your casting... it's very edge, and I made a specific exception for it. Even someone focused on party buffing with high cha (like a bard) doesn't want marshal, even in gestalt, you're better off going war weaver sorc, marshal's bonuses are just so piddly you don't even care if you have them or not.


Shadowcaster is useless for powergaming. It's low tier 4, at best, maybe high tier 4 on the levels it gets a few of it's overpowered abilities, but it requires such a huge level investment for literally anything worthwhile at all that there's nothing much you can do with it that can't be done better by nearly any other casting class. Even truenamer has more possible powergaming uses than shadowcaster.


My faerun point was that other than a few derpderpedly broken things (Hathran, Incantatrix, Runescarred Berserker, Spellderper, etc) every single other class, feat, prestige class, and magic item is utterly useless. Not even partially useful, there's no middle, it just goes 'useless' to 'what the **** is this'.


Had a friend play a healer. It was really annoying as the DM

Healer theoretically can be used for certain things. It's just slightly worse than the more obvious ways of doing it.

It does get an all-day unicorn at level 7 or whatever, that's pretty cool. If unicorns did anything worth having them around all day for.


Saintly Warforged Monk with Vow of Poverty

If only anything good came from the 'monk' part of that.

Monk 1/commoner 19 is as good as monk 20 in that build.


Ten people, (myself included) will disagree with you there. Maybe the Rag and Bone Man will change your mind, maybe not, but either way, it's far from the worst class in the game.

Iron Chef specifically is where people find useless/strange things and make them interesting/powerful.

Also, if you intended to link to a specific build, you did not. You linked to a thread.

[Venger]

Iron Chef specifically is where people find useless/strange things and make them interesting/powerful.

Also, if you intended to link to a specific build, you did not. You linked to a thread.

Well, yes. That's why I said it's not the worst in the game. It is not very good, which is why it was a secret ingredient in the first place, but there are several entries that could give even players who weren't playing at a handicap a run for their money.

I did indeed mean to link to the thread and not an individual post. if you just want to look at mine (the rag and bone man) there's a link in my signature, but I wanted people to be able to see all 10 dishes, not just mine.

[Divayth Fyr]

If Pathfinder counts, Monkey Lunge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/monkey-lunge-combat) and Prone shooter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/prone-shooter-combat) are serious competitors.

[dspeyer]

Ten people, (myself included) will disagree with you there. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252923) Maybe the Rag and Bone Man will change your mind, maybe not, but either way, it's far from the worst class in the game.


The Rag and Bone Man is a nifty character and build, but I don't think it would lose anything if AotS were replaced with Eldritch Knight and the skin thing demoted to pure fluff.