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View Full Version : Be Anything [3.P Class Challenge Brainstorm]



Hanuman
2012-09-26, 05:00 AM
Alright guys, this is your chance to show off your big fat brains, help design/refine a base class!

Several years ago I begun working on a base class that could basically be anything and do anything. No I'm not talking about a wizard, I'm talking a shifting, evolving, changing and undoing class. One that a player never has to re-roll, never has to take a PrC and never has to multiclass or gestalt.

Now before I start going into details over the draft of this project, I'd like your input on balance and approach from a fresh perspective, without knowing the exact workings, and how you would accomplish this yourself.

Criteria (Don't worry if you don't fill them all, or even know them all):
1) The main stat must be Charisma

2) Almost all class choices must be subject to change later, excluding skillpoints, attribute and feat placement.

3) The class must be able to perform the following competently (preferably above: absolute minimum half-advancement such as from classes like the psionic warrior or the bard), but never at the same time, such as changing what it can do per day or per encounter:

-Beatstick (Bonus Feats or other customizations + Rage)
-Dex Combatant (Melee or Range Capable + Fun)
-Rogue/Ninja (Sneak Attack + Rogue Talents + Ki Pool + Tricks)
-Psionic (All powers + PP system + Augments)
-Arcane Caster (All Spells + Spells per day)
-Divine Caster (All Spells + Turn/Rebuke + Wildshape(P) + Spontaneous Casting)
-Martial Maneuver User (Maneuvers + Stances)
-Ortho's Ozodrin (Features + Primary Stomach + Devour)
-Draken's Evolutionist (Mutations + Teratomorph)
-Binder (Pacts, Vestiges, ect)
-Summoner (Eidolon + Evolution)
-Bard (Bardic Knowledge + Bardic Performance(P)
-Spellthief (Stealin yo spells)
-Trapsmith (In-Combat Traps)
-Soulweaver (Reweave Spirit)
-Dread Necromancer (Undead Horde)
-Soulknife(P) (Mindblade)
-Gunslinger (Deeds + Grit)
-Witch (Hex)
-Artificer (Infusion)
-Hellreaver (Holy Fury + Divine Succor)
-Unarmed (Such as monk, UA Swordsage or Fistbeard Beardfist)
-Geomancer (Drift)
-Warlock (Invocations)
-Factotum (Inspiration Points + Trapfinding)
-Incarnum Classes (Incarnum + Chakra Bind)
-Kanachi's Dimensional Conduit (Doubles + Riftstride + ect)
-Others (Ones I haven't thought of right now.)

4) No proficiencies granted, but able to have a full weapon/armor/shield proficiency just due to class skills if desired by the player.

5) No class skills granted, the player may choose which ones they want.

6) Hit die and skillpoints per level are not static, they can be high or low at level 1 and the player can choose to improve them but not shrink them.

7) The class must be power balanced for a Tier 1-3 player array :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

---

Post your thoughts about the concept, feelings you have, ect.

It can be done!

Djinn_in_Tonic
2012-09-26, 07:43 AM
The sheer number of options you want to include makes this overly complicated for a class. You'd need to tie things to feats or some other thing: this current model would simply be to complex and unwieldy, as you're basically trying to make a non-class modular system INTO a class. :smalleek:

It could be done, but balancing it would be basically impossible: it would either be to weak, or far to strong, depending on the level of ability it gets in all of those things. I don't think there's much of a middle ground, honestly (in combat there might be, but out of combat...it can do to much if it's even half competent).

So basically, I'd never try. I'd take another approach: I'd use my Chameleon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100597) as a core, and then design Mask feats for each of the classes I'd choose to utilize. That keeps it relatively simple, and limits the player to things he or she feels he/she will use, without creating option bloat.

Looking at the list you suggested, however, I definitely feel the bloat of to many options. I also think such a class wouldn't have enough of its own identity, which is important for class design.

Infernally Clay
2012-09-26, 08:13 AM
I'd also suggest looking at the Factotum. For the most part, a Factotum seems like what you're trying to accomplish.Cunning Brilliance is a 19th level ability that lets you mimic any base classes' Extraordinary 15th level class ability for about a minute. Tweaking it and making it a scale with your class level instead might be interesting. At 20th level, you might allow a 20th level character to mimic even Supernatural class abilities.

I would make it a daily thing, regardless, instead of having a minute-long duration. In terms of scaling with your level, ¾ progress sounds good. So starting at 4th level, you can mimic one 3rd level extraordinary class ability of another class. At 8th level, you can pick a 6th level ability. At 12th, two 9th level abilities. At 16th, two 12th level abilities. At 20th, then, two 15th level abilities - extraordinary or supernatural.

Hanuman
2012-09-26, 04:26 PM
Good feedback, fact19=any15 Ex, and I'm leaving the option open for some good /encounter ideas, but it's looking pretty good at /day changes.

The chameleon is interesting and relative, and great work on it btw, thats exactly what the mask PrC should have been in 3.5. Why is it locked?

I'll be using the chameleon's reference tables for a decent chunk of my balance datapoints, and major respect Djinn becuase if I wasn't planning to set up this with a fluid purchase system I'd probably just go with your class and re-fluff it as an alternative fluff with some minor ACF tweaks and about 10 more masks.

Datapoints referenced by chameleon:
-Divine Caster (All Spells + Turn/Rebuke)
-Unarmed (Such as monk, UA Swordsage or Fistbeard Beardfist)
-Dex Combatant (Melee or Range Capable + Fun)
-Rogue/Ninja (Sneak Attack)
-Binder (Pacts, Vestiges, ect)
-Arcane Caster (All Spells + Spells per day)
-Warlock (Invocations)
-Martial Maneuver User (Maneuvers + Stances)

Datapoint balance references not covered in this thread:
-Beatstick (Bonus Feats or other customizations + Rage)
-Rogue/Ninja (Rogue Talents + Ki Pool + Tricks)
-Psionic (All powers + PP system + Augments)
-Divine Caster (Wildshape(P) + Spontaneous Casting)
-Ortho's Ozodrin (Features + Primary Stomach + Devour)
-Draken's Evolutionist (Mutations + Teratomorph)
-Summoner (Eidolon + Evolution)
-Bard (Bardic Knowledge + Bardic Performance(P)
-Spellthief (Stealin yo spells)
-Trapsmith (In-Combat Traps)
-Soulweaver (Reweave Spirit)
-Dread Necromancer (Undead Horde)
-Soulknife(P) (Mindblade)
-Gunslinger (Deeds + Grit)
-Witch (Hex)
-Artificer (Infusion)
-Hellreaver (Holy Fury + Divine Succor)
-Geomancer (Drift)
-Factotum (Inspiration Points + Trapfinding)
-Incarnum Classes (Incarnum + Chakra Bind)
-Kanachi's Dimensional Conduit (Doubles + Riftstride + ect)
-Others (Ones I haven't thought of right now.)

I'm happy how this is going, keep it up!

Djinn_in_Tonic
2012-09-26, 05:17 PM
The chameleon is interesting and relative, and great work on it btw, thats exactly what the mask PrC should have been in 3.5. Why is it locked?

It's locked because it's an old thread. I believe they locked a lot of old thread in a recent forum purge.


I'll be using the chameleon's reference tables for a decent chunk of my balance datapoints, and major respect Djinn becuase if I wasn't planning to set up this with a fluid purchase system I'd probably just go with your class and re-fluff it as an alternative fluff with some minor ACF tweaks and about 10 more masks.

I'd be really careful...this is what has me worried about your creation. That Chameleon variant is VERY powerful...probably more powerful than the average game table wants...due to its incredible array of options. You're suggesting giving even MORE room for options and flexibility. That's concerning.


Datapoint balance references not covered in this thread:
-Beatstick (Bonus Feats or other customizations + Rage)
-Rogue/Ninja (Rogue Talents + Ki Pool + Tricks)
-Psionic (All powers + PP system + Augments)
-Divine Caster (Wildshape(P) + Spontaneous Casting)
-Ortho's Ozodrin (Features + Primary Stomach + Devour)
-Draken's Evolutionist (Mutations + Teratomorph)
-Summoner (Eidolon + Evolution)
-Bard (Bardic Knowledge + Bardic Performance(P)
-Spellthief (Stealin yo spells)
-Trapsmith (In-Combat Traps)
-Soulweaver (Reweave Spirit)
-Dread Necromancer (Undead Horde)
-Soulknife(P) (Mindblade)
-Gunslinger (Deeds + Grit)
-Witch (Hex)
-Artificer (Infusion)
-Hellreaver (Holy Fury + Divine Succor)
-Geomancer (Drift)
-Factotum (Inspiration Points + Trapfinding)
-Incarnum Classes (Incarnum + Chakra Bind)
-Kanachi's Dimensional Conduit (Doubles + Riftstride + ect)
-Others (Ones I haven't thought of right now.)

I'm happy how this is going, keep it up!

The Chameleon posted above could easily be tweaked to provide any and all of these through additional masks. I just haven't made them. :smalltongue:

Quellian-dyrae
2012-09-26, 05:21 PM
So...I was considering suggesting you take a look at Kanachi's Dimensional Conduit class, and then noticed you have it listed as one of the things you want the class to emulate.

Honestly, considering the scope you intend for this class, I don't think you'll find a much better baseline than the Dimensional Conduit. It seems like it does exactly what you want, and since the doubles are lower-level and capped at 7th level spells, it probably could even fit in with a Tier 1/Tier 2 party despite its massive versatility.

So yeah, that'd be my advice. Use that class for the base, and make any tweaks you feel necessary to make it more fully fit your vision.

Hanuman
2012-09-26, 05:54 PM
So...I was considering suggesting you take a look at Kanachi's Dimensional Conduit class, and then noticed you have it listed as one of the things you want the class to emulate.

Honestly, considering the scope you intend for this class, I don't think you'll find a much better baseline than the Dimensional Conduit. It seems like it does exactly what you want, and since the doubles are lower-level and capped at 7th level spells, it probably could even fit in with a Tier 1/Tier 2 party despite its massive versatility.

So yeah, that'd be my advice. Use that class for the base, and make any tweaks you feel necessary to make it more fully fit your vision.

@Doubles
I really enjoy doubles, as I am a fan of complication and happen to like making character sheets.

That being said, I really want to create a class that physically changes and quite radically. Doubles have some interesting balance datapoints though, and I really like the separation of spells-per-day from their ability to cast, as I do like the chameleon for it's version in part.

Personally I'm more inclined to "buy your baseclass, then sell it back and re-buy another" as an approach, personally I rather than max spell level and spell per day not even be a default and instead need to be part of the balance.


It's locked because it's an old thread. I believe they locked a lot of old thread in a recent forum purge.

I'd be really careful...this is what has me worried about your creation. That Chameleon variant is VERY powerful...probably more powerful than the average game table wants...due to its incredible array of options. You're suggesting giving even MORE room for options and flexibility. That's concerning.

The Chameleon posted above could easily be tweaked to provide any and all of these through additional masks. I just haven't made them. :smalltongue:

@Additional Masks
I'd gladly use additional datapoints if you felt like improving your class' array!
Of course you're going to be credited even though strictly speaking the chameleon's abilities aren't on the list yet.

@Locked
Honestly I'm surprised how little it was responded to considering it's potential and scope.

@Balance
Oh hell yes its hard to balance, it's a big dream and has taken a long time.
The trick is not letting the players have everything at once, like a divine caster can cast every spell, but not all the time and not too much utility per day. The real trick is the find balances on "how fast can the character change" and "how can maximum options be presented at any time but not an over-indulgence of the use of those options". Gradual change might be a good approach but I'm still considering options so I really appreciate the input.