Magic item casting a spell - SR and Savings throw DCs

[Leekos]

During a gaming session last night we (a party of four 6th level and one 7th level) encountered a very large, likely ancient, red dragon. It basically demanded that we strip every single magic item and leave it for him. We also knew that there was absolutely no chance of us taking it on.

While our Dragon Shaman was speaking to him, the Ranger/Druid decides to pull out his Luck Blade and says "I wish the dragon away.. far away.. in another plane".

Suddenly, everybody gets a deer in the headlights look. After the shock wore off, we started trying to figure out the mechanics of what would happen. We figured the most likely scenario would be that of a wish duplicating a spell, and that spell would be plane shift.

Now plane shift has Spell Resistance and a Will savings throw. The question that came up was, how do you determine the DC and SR check. I suggested that it would be the caster level of the magic item and the saving throw would be based off of the minimum stat score needed to cast the spell to create the item.

Using these numbers, the ranger surprisingly overcame Spell Resistance, and then to our surprise, the DM rolled a 5 for the Will save.

We know that we now have an extremely angry red dragon that will spare nothing to hunt us down, but at least we bought ourselves some time.

My question is, did we handle this (more or less) correctly; from the mechanical aspects of the wish, to the proper Spell Resistance and saving throw?

[jmelesky]

If it were an item that, when activated, cast plane shift, then I'm pretty sure you did it exactly right.

The wish indirection might conceivably complicate things (e.g. the DC might be based on it being a level 9 spell rather than level 7), but you probably handled that fine.

[Psyren]

Now plane shift has Spell Resistance and a Will savings throw. The question that came up was, how do you determine the DC and SR check. I suggested that it would be the caster level of the magic item and the saving throw would be based off of the minimum stat score needed to cast the spell to create the item.

Correct on both counts. Thus, the caster level of his luck blade's Wish would be 17 and the will save would be DC 23: 10 + 9 (9th-level spell) + 4 (19 minimum casting stat needed for a 9th-level spell.)

For future reference, the relevant rules are here:


Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers

Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.

Staffs are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DC.

Most item descriptions give saving throw DCs for various effects, particularly when the effect has no exact spell equivalent (making its level otherwise difficult to determine quickly).


Caster Level for Weapons

The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description.


Luck Blade

Strong evocation; CL 17th

Note however that your Wish did not have to duplicate Plane Shift - Wish can transport the dragon all by itself. But there is little functional difference between the two approaches in any event (unless there was a dimensional lock/anchor or something similar around.)

[dextercorvia]

The only thing I would have done differently is let the Wish use the transport travelers ability, which would have made the Will save based on the 9th level spell.

[Psyren]

The only thing I would have done differently is let the Wish use the transport travelers ability, which would have made the Will save based on the 9th level spell.

No need - even when duplicating a lower-level spell, Wish always uses the save DCs of a 9th-level spell. (That's why I said that, in this instance, there was no functional difference between Wished Plane Shift vs. Transport Travelers)

[dextercorvia]

No need - even when duplicating a lower-level spell, Wish always uses the save DCs of a 9th-level spell. (That's why I said that, in this instance, there was no functional difference between Wished Plane Shift vs. Transport Travelers)

I realized that after I posted. Thanks for the clarification.

[TuggyNE]

Incidentally, had your Ranger been slightly more savvy, you could have been rid of the dragon forever: plane shifting to the Positive Energy Plane will kill nearly anything in short order. (Other planes are also fairly hostile, but PEP is arguably the most dangerous and hardest to protect against.)

[Jeraa]

Incidentally, had your Ranger been slightly more savvy, you could have been rid of the dragon forever: plane shifting to the Positive Energy Plane will kill nearly anything in short order. (Other planes are also fairly hostile, but PEP is arguably the most dangerous and hardest to protect against.)

Not likely, at least for dragons. Its only a DC 20 Fortitude save to avoid exploding, and if the dragon really was an Ancient Red Dragon as the OP guessed, it would only fail that save on a Natural 1 (it has a +28 Fortitude save). Even an adult red dragon can only fail the save on a natural 1 (+18 fortitude save).

And once you remember that the dragon also casts spells as both a sorcerer and a cleric, the dragon could just Plane Shift back.

[TuggyNE]

Not likely, at least for dragons. Its only a DC 20 Fortitude save to avoid exploding, and if the dragon really was an Ancient Red Dragon as the OP guessed, it would only fail that save on a Natural 1 (it has a +28 Fortitude save). Even an adult red dragon can only fail the save on a natural 1 (+18 fortitude save).

That was, in fact, my point. Given 20+ rounds, you are going to roll a 1.


And once you remember that the dragon also casts spells as both a sorcerer and a cleric, the dragon could just Plane Shift back.

Ahh, fair enough, assuming it knows plane shift. (Although in that case you wouldn't really have solved much anyway, since all it would need is plane shift + teleport and bam, red dragon staring you in the face again.)

[Psyren]

Ahh, fair enough, assuming it knows plane shift. (Although in that case you wouldn't really have solved much anyway, since all it would need is plane shift + teleport and bam, red dragon staring you in the face again.)

Without Greater Teleport, it could still end up pretty far off target even if it was able to get back right away.

[TuggyNE]

Without Greater Teleport, it could still end up pretty far off target even if it was able to get back right away.

Well yeah, but it has an excellent chance of arriving on target (no less than 75% even if it had never been there before and didn't stop to scry again), as opposed to its chances of surviving without plane shift, which are basically nil.

[tyckspoon]

Incidentally, had your Ranger been slightly more savvy, you could have been rid of the dragon forever: plane shifting to the Positive Energy Plane will kill nearly anything in short order. (Other planes are also fairly hostile, but PEP is arguably the most dangerous and hardest to protect against.)

If he's decided to burn a Wish on this (..what is a level 6 party doing with a Wish item anyway? A single Wish in a Luckblade is valued at nearly the entire party's standard WBL... although 'The DM is trying to cut back your excessive wealth' would be a pretty good explanation for 'suddenly an unbeatable dragon demands most of your magic gear in tribute.') he could also have just wished to send the party themselves to somewhere safe/wherever they were trying to get to and have that succeed without worrying about SR and saving throws.

[Leekos]

Thanks for the initial comments, all! Glad to know I got the basic math and mechanics mostly right.


Incidentally, had your Ranger been slightly more savvy, you could have been rid of the dragon forever: plane shifting to the Positive Energy Plane will kill nearly anything in short order. (Other planes are also fairly hostile, but PEP is arguably the most dangerous and hardest to protect against.)
The DM claimed that, as a 6th level ranger/druid, he wouldn't be familiar with the arcane spells. So the wish did as close to how he worded it as possible. "I wish the dragon away.. far away.. in another plane". As soon as I heard that last part (metagaming), my hopes sank a bit, because I knew that the first part could have been handled with a simple teleport.

Bottom line, the DM said the ranger wouldn't know enough about what spells to cast. In addition, this is all while the dragon shaman was talking to it (~12 seconds), so there wasn't time to strategize what spell to use. It panicked wish to try to keep us safe.


If he's decided to burn a Wish on this (..what is a level 6 party doing with a Wish item anyway? A single Wish in a Luckblade is valued at nearly the entire party's standard WBL... although 'The DM is trying to cut back your excessive wealth' would be a pretty good explanation for 'suddenly an unbeatable dragon demands most of your magic gear in tribute.') he could also have just wished to send the party themselves to somewhere safe/wherever they were trying to get to and have that succeed without worrying about SR and saving throws.
The DM doesn't really follow WBL. Magic items are rolled randomly. We could get crap loot, or we could get an artifact. He was following the module which says that the dragon randomly scans the forest and there is a 10% chance that it will find us, then demand all of our magic items. So he wasn't doing it specifically to bring us back into a specific WBL range.


Now on another note, any suggestions on what I/we can do to prepare for the dragon's inevitable return?

I am a Ranger 1/Warlock 5

The group is fairly low on the optimization scale. For example, I was going to take Enlightened Spirit, knowing that wasn't the most optimized choice, but thought it would keep me in line with the others. But I've since decided to probably go Warlock into Hellfire Warlock. Given the DM and the group, I will have to deal with the CON damage via wands of lesser restoration. Binding Nabarious and other tricks are likely to start arguments.

The level of ranger was for the BAB, ranger spells for wands, and (most importantly) the trapfinder ACF

Stats:
STR - 12
CON - 14
DEX - 22 (including gloves of dexterity)
INT - 16
WIS - 15
CHA - 16

Feats:
Able Learner
Weapon Finesse
Combat Expertise
Improved Initiative
Superior Finesse (Dex to damage instead of Str)
Spell Penetration

At the next level (level 7), I will get two bonus feats (campaign bonus) which will probably be Extra Invocations

That said.. Invocations:
Hideous Blow (I know, I know.. but it's been working)
Entropic Warding
See the Unseen

Next level I will take Flee the Scene and the bonus feats will give Eldritch Glaive and probably Baleful Utterance.


Magic items currently:
+1 Mithril Chain Shirt
+3 Ring of Protection
+2 Shortsword
+2 Gloves of Dexterity
+2 Cloak of Resistance
Chasuble of Fell Power

Just a note on magic items:
The more specific an item is, the less likely it will be available. I tried to buy a Greater Chasuble of Fell Power at the last town. The DM said that I only had maybe a 10% chance of it being available to purchase. (I think it was his way of saying "I don't think you should have another +2d6 to your Eldritch Blast yet"). The regular Chasuble of Fell Power I have only came because the NPC that sent us on our current mission granted us each a boon. Two of the other humans used it to get Dark Vision permanently, so it was basically a wish for each of us.

The rest of the party is a Dragon Shaman, an Arcane Disciple, a Ranger/Druid, and a Rogue (I don't know if the Rogue is multi-classed or not)

[Psyren]

Now on another note, any suggestions on what I/we can do to prepare for the dragon's inevitable return?


Gain levels :smalltongue:

If you have another Wish in that Luckblade, you can also use it to get the hell out of there if he shows up again too soon for you to handle. I hear Elysium is nice this time of year. Transporting yourselves instead of him will obviate the need for a save/SR.

[Leekos]

Gain levels :smalltongue:

If you have another Wish in that Luckblade, you can also use it to get the hell out of there if he shows up again too soon for you to handle. I hear Elysium is nice this time of year. Transporting yourselves instead of him will obviate the need for a save/SR.

Good point! I think it just so happens to have one more wish in it.

[Dr Bwaa]

Jesus, a Luckblade with 2+ wishes in it at ECL6? I want whatever treasure tables your GM is rolling on. And I second the notion that the best thing you can do when the dragon gets back is use that thing to plane shift the party someplace nice & safe.

[Jeraa]

Now on another note, any suggestions on what I/we can do to prepare for the dragon's inevitable return?

Gather stuff that does Dexterity damage. True dragons (at least the ones in the Monster Manual) all have a dexterity of 10 at all age categories. If you get that down to 0, the dragon can't fight back anymore, and you can take your time finishing it off (coup de grace, multiple ones if necessary).

Shivering Touch is a 3rd level cleric and wizard/sorcerer spell from Frostburn. 3d6 dex damage (average of 10.5 dex damage) with a touch attack (melee touch attack unfortunately), no save, though spell resistance applies.