Healer Multiclassing?

[FaerieDrgn]

So, I'm new. Hi guys. Here is my situation. I play a healer in my D&D group. Not from the miniatures book, but a revamped one. I love playing her, but the problem is, because her vows and the nature of the healer, she is very non-violent, and gets walked on by the group a lot. She has a lot of good ideas, and I think she could be a leader (our group is kind of missing that sort of a person), but again, the group walks all over her, ignoring just about everything she says. She has saved their lives many many many many times, yet they still don't respect her. So I was thinking of maybe taking a level or few in the Marshal class. I like the idea of the auras (giving buffs almost instantly without using spells sounds wonderful to me), and I suppose it would sort of fit with her backstory, but the problem is she is non-violent. I am afraid that if she does take a level or few in Marshal, everyone will expect her to fight, and kill. If she does, I have a feeling that she might lose all her healing ability (I actually know that this would happen), and I would end up having to start from the beginning (meaning some of my class levels might be switched to something else like cleric). With multiclassing to Marshal, I am hoping I can fufill the leader position, and not get ignored and stepped on all the time. Any ideas or suggestions?

I am a level 9 healer. Cha 20, Wis 18, Int 16, Con 12, Dex 10, Str 8

Also, my DM gave the Marshal manuvers and changed a few details of the class.

[HunterOfJello]

Marshall really isn't very good after the 1st or 2nd level. It's a 1-2 level dip class. You can only use 1 minor aura at a time, so getting a second one isn't going to help you much at all.

If you want to help your party out without going offensive, then you could consider the Bard class. Their songs are very useful if used properly. You could also consider prestige classes that would give you debuff or better buffing spells. Players respect buffing and debuff. They aren't going to respect pure healing. What features does your revamped Healer have? What level are you and what level is everyone else?

Also, other players respect for your character is linked to how much they respect you, not how much they respect your character.

How far does your pacifism extend? Will you not attack an enemy with a spell that blinds them or stops them from attacking others? Would you use a Charm spell on an enemy to shut them down?


edit: I won't say that Marshall is terrible and you should avoid it. I will say that there are LOTS of other options and some of them might be preferable for you. For instance, a single level of Binder would give you access to the Naberius vestige which gives you a list of very good nonviolent abilities. Here's a quick list: Command living target within 30ft as a supernatural ability at-will with a 5 round cooldown, you can take 10 on diplomacy and bluff checks and make a rushed diplomacy check (full-round action) without a penalty (normally it has a -10 penalty). It also has an improved healing rate for both ability damage (now 1/round!!!) and drain (now 1/hour!!!), Disguise Self at-will as a standard action, and improved use of a number of untrained skills equal to your con modifier (so... 1) per day that now count as trained. All of this for 1 level.

[BowStreetRunner]

It's hard to know for sure without more details about your character, but I would seriously recommend looking at prestige classes in the Book of Exalted Deeds. It sounds like BoED is right up your character's alley.

[Psyren]

This sounds more like a roleplay problem. Your character has a fairly high charisma - is she timid and shy? Are they ignoring your character in-character, or are they actually ignoring you, the player? Charismatic individuals should be, if not the total center of attention, at least hard to ignore when they have something to say. If your group is disregarding that, multiclassing may not help.

[Snowbluff]

Find out how to qualify for Radiant Servant of Pelor. Then find some undead and give them some healing! Toast them good! (Assuming your vows allow for slaying undead)

[only1doug]

To me it sounds like the problem is the other players unwillingness to listen to your plans rather than any weakness in your characters class. This probably needs OOC discussion rather than multiclassing that doesn't fit your character concept. Tell the other players that you would like them to listen to your IC ideas occasionally and then IC take a firmer stance, your characters aversion to violence does not mean she has to be walked all over.

"Listen up, here's the plan, try things my way or go buy a lot of healing potions...."

[Kaje]

"Listen up, here's the plan, try things my way or go buy a lot of healing potions...."

If this healer has the same code as the MiniHB version, that'll make it fall.

[only1doug]

If this healer has the same code as the MiniHB version, that'll make it fall.

Oh, my poor friend, it isnt that i don't wish to heal you, unfortunately today i didn't think to prepare any healing spells, after all if you had done as i suggested no one would have been injured... (healers dont get spontaneous healing, just fill the spell slots with other spells).

[Kaje]

Ahh, genius.

[only1doug]

Take touch of healing reserve feat and prepare one cure moderate wounds, now all the other spell slots can be used for other spells and you can still heal your party all day long (up to 1/2 their maximum).

[FaerieDrgn]

This healer does get spontaneous healing. This is where it was taken from: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133118

It isn't changed much, except some of the spells.
The problem is more that the other characters in game don't respect my character because she refuses to fight, or kill, or really hurt anything. I suppose its more of a misunderstanding sort of thing, but the more i try to explain, the more they ignore me or try to fight my views (in character).

The problem going with bard is that we already have a bard, and I don't want to step on toes in that respect.



"Listen up, here's the plan, try things my way or go buy a lot of healing potions...."
I've sort of done this before. Something happened to my character in which she was not around, and the party pretty much started dropping. And quickly too. They pretty much begged that I bring my healer back, and I did, more because I love playing her.



Players respect buffing and debuff. They aren't going to respect pure healing. What features does your revamped Healer have? What level are you and what level is everyone else?

Also, other players respect for your character is linked to how much they respect you, not how much they respect your character.

How far does your pacifism extend? Will you not attack an enemy with a spell that blinds them or stops them from attacking others? Would you use a Charm spell on an enemy to shut them down?

I tend to buff them a lot, and save them from the brink of death almost every battle we fight... Everyone is either level 8 or 9. I would attack an enemy with a spell that would stop them, but the problem is, my touch attack is only +4, and I'm usually healing throughout the whole battle due to the brute force tactics of my party members.

The feats I have are: Augment Healing, Touch of Healing, Sacred healing (fast healing 3), vow of nonviolence, and improved initiative

[Gnaeus]

It sounds to me like it is less of an issue about respecting a character and more about how players want to play the game. If you are in a party that loves combat, you are probably never going to stop them from instigating combat. It isn't much different from a paladin in a neutral party or a necro in a good party. When you bring a character into play who has basic ethics fundamentally different than all the teammates, you are starting the problem. Why would a bunch of violent, murderous hobos driven by a lust for gold and a desire for combat (aka a typical adventuring party) want to listen to plans generated by a pacifist. Her plans are guaranteed not to get them what they want... a good fight. If you find a way to reduce the combats, I would anticipate a very negative reaction IC or OOC.

I suggest retiring the character and rerolling something more in line with the attitudes of the group. Maybe ask if the next game could be exalted and you could return to the character then.

[FaerieDrgn]

Funny thing. This campaign was supposed to be all about exploration and discovery. Everyone wanted to discover some ancient civilization. But it turned into a mess clean up campaign (considering we let lose a demon, even though I TOLD them they shouldn't). But instead of talking to NPCs that are reasonable, the first thing they do is hack and slash. A new player joined our ranks, and his character almost got killed because the party's hack and slash-yness. It was definitely a good thing I was there... I don't prevent the party from killing or anything, I just present a different way of going about things. I have definitely give up a lot in the ways of a traditional healer/pacifist.

(And with our record, we NEED a healer. We tried playing without one a few sessions and the party was almost totally wiped. All in all, two of us have died but came back one way or another, another two people has gone through two characters each, and after every battle i'm fixing broken bones and putting goo back into people. And it's not the DM's fault that we are in this shape. I think we have fought only a couple of things that were our level, every thing has been lower level things like knolls)

But with this multiclass thing, I'm hoping that I can prove to them that I don't need them, that I can choose to leave at any time, and that THEY need me. That if they want me to stick around longer, they should at least take my ideas into consideration. I'm with the party because of in game reasons, pretty much they are my adopted family. I would very much like to keep my character, I am just asking for suggestions on multiclassing or prestige classes.

[navar100]

Go on strike. Don't heal the party. Let them learn what it means not to have you around. If they still don't respect you, leave. Not necessarily only in character. You have a meta-game problem, not a character ability problem.

[Psyren]

I would very much like to keep my character, I am just asking for suggestions on multiclassing or prestige classes.

I still think this is the wrong approach. You're caught between two very poor scenarios - forcing your playstyle on them, or being forced to go along with theirs. Simply adding abilities to your build that will help you do the former (or browbeating them all by withholding your healing) is treating the symptoms rather than the root cause of the problem.

I think the real issue here is the DM. BoED specifically states that if players play Exalted characters, the DM should give them an opportunity to have their beliefs rewarded - that sometimes they will be able to take a villain prisoner and/or redeem him, without him escaping and making them feel that their noble intentions are naive and foolish.

In other words, right now your party isn't listening to you because the DM hasn't given them a reason to. Slaughtering every opponent they come across hasn't had any negative consequences, so they see no reason to take a more peaceful approach, or even to hear one out. He's basically making it so that your vow has no real point but to hamper your own character, when what he should be doing is rewarding you for taking a much more difficult path than the rest. So I would sit down with him and find out if that's the way things are going to be long-term.

[animewatcha]

The 'slaughter all's. Are they doing this to all kinda of species or just humanoids and/or monstrous humanoids? If just humanoids and/or monstrous humanoids, are they being rendered 'helpless' and/or 'defenseless' ?

[FaerieDrgn]

It is to just monsters and humanoids. Half the things that are our level tend to escape because we are too beaten to do anything, and the other half of things are dead as a doornail because we (or they considering who i play) kill them. They don't believe that anything or anyone could give us information we need for things.

As for confronting the group about problems, we have. We spent a whole session on it. The consensous was that I was pretty much the root cause of the party problems because of my characters beliefs. Because I try to come up with different ideas on how to solve problems aside from "kill them all". Because I try to avoid the violence that isn't neccessary.

I've done the "not go to gaming" thing. And it solved the drama part of gaming, but it also almost killed the party several times. In one night. For a couple of sessions. So a healer is definitely needed, but clerics are also almost non-existent in this world. I've also tried to play a melee character, but again, problem stated above. And I love playing the healer, maybe I'm hoping too much that diping a level or two into a differet class might change things. And it might, or might not. I'm hoping that maybe they would respect me (my character) more if she did learn how to fight.

[Gnaeus]

You know, it is possible to make a character that can heal who isn't a pacifist.

Also, from a strictly optimization perspective, if the only thing that is keeping people alive is in-combat healing, your other casters are not pulling their weight. In most cases in 3.5, locking down or killing enemies are much more effective in keeping comrades alive than healing PCs in combat.

[Kaje]

You know, it is possible to make a character that can heal who isn't a pacifist.

Also, from a strictly optimization perspective, if the only thing that is keeping people alive is in-combat healing, your other casters are not pulling their weight. In most cases in 3.5, locking down or killing enemies are much more effective in keeping comrades alive than healing PCs in combat.

Not if you're actually playing the healer class.

[FaerieDrgn]

Now that I think about it, the only casters in the group are the bard (who also happens to be an orc, so instead of casting, he's more buffing and smash 'em to bits character) and me. The others are all melee and happen to like to use me as a tank, seeing as I'm the healer and hard to kill. So actually most of my healing was going to myself to keep me alive so I could keep the party alive. That was ended recently seeing as I now have a body guard, and its now MUCH easier to heal the party, and also one of our players switched over to a true "tank" character, but problems stated above.

I would use hold person more often if i knew that they weren't going to straight out kill the target of the spell, and if we weren't actually dying all the time. Before anything else is said, we are facing things that are lower than we are. The DM actually said that he was having fun coming up with fun and creative ways to beat us with lower level monsters, because we are so disorganized. Hence the reasoning behind the "leader-y" marshal class i was thinking of.

[Gnaeus]

Not if you're actually playing the healer class.

Right.

Problem: I am a pacifist in a group of axe murderers
Solution: Play something that can co-exist with your party members
Problem(2): but the axe murderers need someone who can heal
Solution(2): play something that can heal that isn't a pacifist. Archivist springs to mind. Druid. Cleric (although he says they are rare). Heck, as violent as these guys are, play a dread necro. Change the line of reasoning to: if you want heals, just let the tomb taint your soul. I bet you get more takers. On the + side, you can then question NPCs even AFTER they have been pointlessly slaughtered!
:smallcool:

[prufock]

The problem is more that the other characters in game don't respect my character because she refuses to fight, or kill, or really hurt anything.

Taking levels in a so-called "leadership class" is not going to change this. I'm not sure how you think multiclassing is supposed to help. Because it's not going to do this:


But with this multiclass thing, I'm hoping that I can prove to them that I don't need them, that I can choose to leave at any time, and that THEY need me.

You've already proven that they need you. You've said that your character was away for a part or whole session, and that they almost got wiped out. They already know this. They've practically begged you to bring your character back. Nothing is going to change by multiclassing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm going to throw in my vote with the people that are saying this is not an IC problem that multiclassing (or any other part of your character's mechanics) will fix.

Either A) the other players are simply not going to listen, period, which is a much bigger issue than your character. In this case there's nothing you can do except walk away.

Or B) The other characters don't listen because you're not doing a convincing job of RP'ing a leader, in which case the problem is acting skill not a mechanics issue.

Leadership is an OOC skill that has to be legitimately developed if you want to apply it IC. Of course, this can run into issues of your friends getting irritated at you for being bossy if you're not careful. Unfortuantely, developing this skill-set takes significant amounts of time and effort, because it's a complex enough skill-set that one could write a book about it. Quite a few people -have- written books about it.

Good luck. You're probably going to need it.

[only1doug]

It is to just monsters and humanoids. Half the things that are our level tend to escape because we are too beaten to do anything, and the other half of things are dead as a doornail because we (or they considering who i play) kill them. They don't believe that anything or anyone could give us information we need for things.

As for confronting the group about problems, we have. We spent a whole session on it. The consensous was that I was pretty much the root cause of the party problems because of my characters beliefs. Because I try to come up with different ideas on how to solve problems aside from "kill them all". Because I try to avoid the violence that isn't neccessary.

I've done the "not go to gaming" thing. And it solved the drama part of gaming, but it also almost killed the party several times. In one night. For a couple of sessions. So a healer is definitely needed, but clerics are also almost non-existent in this world. I've also tried to play a melee character, but again, problem stated above. And I love playing the healer, maybe I'm hoping too much that diping a level or two into a differet class might change things. And it might, or might not. I'm hoping that maybe they would respect me (my character) more if she did learn how to fight.

Given that the party is of the "Kill 'em all and loot the corpses" disposition I don't think your current character is ever going to positively influence them.

You say that you love healing, want to play in this group but want to be listened to more?
Unfortunately I would say that you will only get 2 of the 3 here, you can play a healer in this group but not get listened to, you can play a healer in a different group and get listened to or you can play <another character> in this group aand get listened to.

I would suggest you create a new character, some kind of lockdown or buffing caster to do crowd control so that your Group fight more efficiently (and thus don't need a healer quite as much).

[Wise Green Bean]

In the unlikely event that leadership(the feat, not the OOC social skill) isn't banned, you could have a very nice cohort with your CHA. A wizard with otiluke's resilient sphere could help with prisoner taking. Maybe a suggestion spell or two. And at the end you pat your cohort on the head and say 'very good, Billy', and you wave your finger at the group and say 'now don't kill them, they could be useful'. And when it turns out that they are useful, maybe the group changes their tune a little. If leadership is banned, could you get dominate person somehow? I looked around, most odd ways of getting spells are tailored to arcane spell casters. If your DM was willing to ignore the arcane-only clauses of the arcane disciple feat or wyrm wizard, you could do it. I don't know what cleric domain has dominate person, but there's so many of the buggers out now that something probably has it...
Heck, at your level, I imagine there's probably an item floating around that gives it daily.

Edit: Last thoughts. Sublime chord also falls under great prestige class you get fairly easily if not for the arcane only clause. And a grappler cohort/mind slave would also fit your general purpose and probably piss off the DM less.

[Twilightwyrm]

Actually, there is a solution that does not involve either a) retiring your character or b) becoming an ax murderer with the rest of your party. Based upon what I have seen of your character class, if you pick up Knowledge Devotion (Or Educated, if you want all knowledge skills, and don't care for Knowledge Devotion's second effect) and take Knowledge (Arcana) as a free Knowledge skill, you can qualify for Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil prestige class. It is only a 7 level prestige class, so you will still have a majority stake in your core character concept, but now with some potent defenses for both you, and your allies, to back up your healing. The veils you get can be employed in a strictly defensive manner, protecting your allies better, as well as setting up walls and dangerous zones on the battlefield. And hey, if the enemy decides to walk into your veil, you are not any more responsible than if they purposely stab them self in the foot with a dagger you left on the ground. Further, Knowledge Devotion will allow you to help your allies in a fight, allowing them to better know, and thus better combat whatever you happen to be fighting. It is also thematically fitting in that you all set out on a, dangerous, quest for discovery, that is to say, attempting to know more. Finally, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil will also advance your spell casting, meaning your ability to heal will be entirely unimpaired. Finally, since your power will now be having a visible manifestation, this will, whether consciously or subconsciously, contribute to your visible presence in a fight, meaning your allies are more likely to take you seriously.

Note on the Ethics of Using the Sevenfold Veils (Spoilered for Length): I admit was being slightly flippant when I was describing the enemy walking into the veils as being equivalent to them stabbing themselves with a dagger you just happened to leave there. There is an argument to be made within pacifist ethics that since you are deliberately blocking your enemies, or protecting your allies, with effects that deal damage, that this is a form of violence to be avoided by pacifists. However, I'm not convinced this view is entirely correct. Restricting movement, expressing visible deterrents, and otherwise keeping one's enemies from taking action is part and parcel to every form of non-violent resistance. Yes, a sit in, boycott, strike, or demonstration at a government, school, or place of business may bring media attention, it it also works by acting as a visible deterrent for those you are protesting, as well as blocking both normal business flow, impairing normal business operations. Without some consequence, any kind of resistance does not work. Even just healing your allies technically allows them to continue to inflict damage on others. One might argue that it is their choice to continue to do so, removing culpability on your part, but if this is so, the only difference between this and walling in your enemies is they are now choosing to get hurt. (Especially if you warn them that attacking your allies or passing through the walls will result in harm to them) You are a pacifist, and since you've been able to pull it off so far, you are to be congratulated. But this does not mean you cannot be reasonable regarding how you protect both yourself and others. Even if you do not do so with violence, you are still going to be coming into conflict with other bring, and so you must have alternative methods of resisting the attacks on yourself by the enemies both you, and your party, encounter.