Trickery Devotion

[Emmerlaus]

I wanted to ask... I can use Bluff skill as a swift action with the feat Trickery devotion. If I win, the opponent think the fake is the real me... (ability gained at lvl. 5)

Question: Does it count as feinting, for making the opponent flatfooted and use sneak attack?

Im making a rogue/clistered cleric archer character and wanted to know if it counted as a feint.

[only1doug]

I'd recommend checking with your GM because his is the only opinion that matters here.

[nyjastul69]

I wanted to ask... I can use Bluff skill as a swift action with the feat Trickery devotion. If I win, the opponent think the fake is the real me... (ability gained at lvl. 5)

Question: Does it count as feinting, for making the opponent flatfooted and use sneak attack?

Im making a rogue/clistered cleric archer character and wanted to know if it counted as a feint.

There may be some confusion here. The flatfooted condition doesn't allow for sneak attack. Sneak attack applies when one is flanked or when one is denied their dexterity bonus to AC. A successful feint attempt doesn't make a creature flatfooted, it denies them their dex bonus to AC. I don't know what the the Trickery Devotion feat does. If it makes someone flatfooted it doesn't necessarily allow for SA.

Edit: As an example, a Barbarian with Uncanny Dodge can be caught flatfooted but not denied their dex bonus to AC.

[only1doug]

There may be some confusion here. The flatfooted condition doesn't allow for sneak attack. Sneak attack applies when one is flanked or when one is denied their dexterity bonus to AC. A successful feint attempt doesn't make a creature flatfooted, it denies them their dex bonus to AC. I don't know what the the Trickery Devotion feat does. If it makes someone flatfooted it doesn't necessarily allow for SA.

Trickery devotion creates a duplicate of the PC with a few HPs, Unless the bluff is made the enemy will know which is the real PC and which the duplicate. OP is asking if suceeding on the Bluff (and convincing enemy that the duplicate is the real PC) will allow him sneak attack benefits in the same way as a feint would (otherwise the benefit is that the enemy wastes their attack on the duplicate).

[nyjastul69]

Trickery devotion creates a duplicate of the PC with a few HPs, Unless the bluff is made the enemy will know which is the real PC and which the duplicate. OP is asking if suceeding on the Bluff (and convincing enemy that the duplicate is the real PC) will allow him sneak attack benefits in the same way as a feint would (otherwise the benefit is that the enemy wastes their attack on the duplicate).

If Trickery Devotion acts like the feint special attack, it can't cause a creature to be flatfooted. The feint special attack causes a creature to be denied their dex to AC. I don't see how flatfooted is relevant here.

Edit: If Trickery Devotion causes the flatfooted condition SA does not necessarily apply. If Trickery Devotion denies one their Dex to AC SA may very well be applicable. I know what feint does, it denies one their dex to AC bonus. This allows for SA. The flatfooted conditon doesn't necessarily allow for SA.

[only1doug]

If Trickery Devotion acts like the feint special attack, it can't cause a creature to be flatfooted. The feint special attack causes a creature to be denied their dex to AC. I don't see how flatfooted is relevant here.

Edit: If Trickery Devotion causes the flatfooted condition SA does not necessarily apply. If Trickery Devotion denies one their Dex to AC SA may very well be applicable. I know what feint does, it denies one their dex to AC bonus. This allows for SA. The flatfooted conditon doesn't necessarily allow for SA.

Trickery devotion does neither of these.
It does not specifically cause the target to be flatfooted.
It does not specifically cause the target to lose dex bonus to AC.

It creates a duplicate of the PC and offers a swift action bluff check that causes the target to think that the duplicate of the PC is really the PC and that the PC is really the duplicate.

[nyjastul69]

Trickery devotion does neither of these.
It does not specifically cause the target to be flatfooted.
It does not specifically cause the target to lose dex bonus to AC.

It creates a duplicate of the PC and offers a swift action bluff check that causes the target to think that the duplicate of the PC is really the PC and that the PC is really the duplicate.

If what you say is accurate then the Trickery Devotion feat cannot ever allow for SA. Unless of course it allows for flanking. There are only two conditions that normally allow SA, denied Dex to AC or being flanked.

Edit: I found TD. It has nothing to with the flatfooted condition. It allows for bluff to be used as a swift action in combat. Bluff can be used to feint in combat. Feinting can deny Dex to AC. Denied Dex to AC can allow for SA. The TD feat can allow for SA, but flatfooted has nothing to with it.

[Twilightwyrm]

Short Answer: No
Long Answer: Strictly speaking no, because it perceives both of you as different beings, and is thus wary of both of you, even if it thinks the other one is you. This being said, you can use your double to flank, and thus potentially give you a sneak attack anyways.

[nyjastul69]

As I reread TD it shoudn't allow for the Feint special attack. The bluff check is specific to 'the image is you (and vice versa)'. TD doesn't seem to allow for the general Bluff as the Feint special attack. I don't see how the simulacrum can be used as a flanker as it doesn't threaten any squares, a key condition for flanking.

Edit: This is how I read the RAW. I'd allow for the spell to feint, but I wouldn't allow it to flank.

[Emmerlaus]

Thanks you guys for the answers :)

My mistake to have said flatfooted, I should have just mentionned feinting in combat wit the feat...

So in short, I can use it to feint... and the Rogue handbook (a Fistful of D6) say I can use it to flank, as well as Twilightwyrm. But Im not sure it can be done as the sneak attack say that it have to be the rogue that is flanking. So I will ask my GM is opinion about flanking but as I readed in Player Handbook, I dont think it can be done.

So I will ask my DM if I can do it. I wanted feedback first and while it cause more a debate then I thought it would, I think, in the end, that the answer was mostly positive (for feinting), thanks you guys!

[Garwain]

If your target thinks that the other you is real, then you are flanking if positioned properly. flatfooted or feighting is a seperate mechanic.

[prufock]

There may be some confusion here. The flatfooted condition doesn't allow for sneak attack. Sneak attack applies when one is flanked or when one is denied their dexterity bonus to AC. A successful feint attempt doesn't make a creature flatfooted, it denies them their dex bonus to AC. I don't know what the the Trickery Devotion feat does. If it makes someone flatfooted it doesn't necessarily allow for SA.

Edit: As an example, a Barbarian with Uncanny Dodge can be caught flatfooted but not denied their dex bonus to AC.

"A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity."

Sneak attack applies when you lose Dex to AC.
Flat-footed makes you lose Dex to AC.
Therefore, sneak attack applies when you are flat-footed.

The barbarian's (and Rogue's) Uncanny Dodge ability is a special exception.