Birth of a God.

[LanSlyde]

Story Time!

So, long story short, our current DM has a preference for torturing his PCs and eldritch horrors. So when a player in our group decides he wants to play a binder our DM decided to implement a random table on the off chance he wanted to summon things blindly. So, the player (lvl8) decides at the beginning of meet he's going to try to summon blindly.

He rolls in the high 30s on his binder score twice for two separate vestiges.

The dm rolls on his random tables. I've got the seat directly to his right. I see the rolls. 100 and 99.

Now, this is a player that normally has consistently bad rolls. Absolutely terrible rolls. Rolls that make me shiver just thinking about them.

I'll reiterate, rolled stupid high on his binder check, then got a 100 and 99 respectively.

This man brings Azathoth and Great Cthulhu himself into the Prime material.

The great arcane tower that we have been exploring was ripped asunder as roiling pink nuclear fire pierces the heavens and forms a great tree in the sky as Azathoth manifests.

The seas around the island this once-magnificent tower rests upon rushes away and the tower itself is pushed upwards as R'lyeh itself rushes to the surface. Somehow, we all make our will saves to avoid insanity in the presence of these great and terrible entities.

The power of these two are enough to drive our little binder to madness as his mind is assaulted by the very embodiments of primordial insanity itself. The combined might of these two beings inhabiting his body elevate him to the power of other primordial beings such as Asmodeus and the Queen of Blades herself.

He could only contain their power for a short minute. But during that time he remade reality... Ripping the planes of the Gray Wastes of Hades, four levels of the Abyss, and four levels of Bator right out of the inter-planar network and reforms them into his image as single plane of existence. Now, the denizens around the tower, and the inhabitants of those planes, were reshaped into his image. Creating a whole new race, which he scattered across the planes and gave them the ability to infect others with his taint and thus spread the Word of Chaos. Basically in the blink of an eye, he tore reality asunder while the other divines could do nothing but watch helplessly. Then created a whole new race and enough followers to officially elevate him to Divine Rank 10.

Oh, his final act before losing the might of the Elder Gods was to recreate the tower as a living draconic sentient construct, which can no longer be touched by the presence of Primordial Beings such as himself. Now, me and the surviving PCs are hauling ass north to avoid the backlash of this void in reality that was his Ascension. Also, the dragon-city is following us. So far it seems pretty chill.

Finally, he's officially pissed off all the other gods. Even Ao was like "wtf mate?".

The end. Discuss!

[legomaster00156]

I laughed so hard, and was at the same time thoroughly impressed.

[Laserlight]

Not quite so epic, but....

From a game I deny having any involvement in:

Tony: The first thing I want to do is call up Honest Abdul: "I have money to burn!"
DM: Hearing the word "money", Honest Abdul appears at your elbow with a happy smile. "What items of most excellent quality can I offer you, for a price just barely enough to keep my pitiful children from starving?"
Tony: "I want to buy a copy of the Necronomicon. I'll offer everything I have, plus a guitar string."
DM: Ooooookay. Honest Abdul has a copy, certainly, and if you're offering everything you have....plus a guitar string...he'll certainly make the trade. What do you do next?
Tony: I read it. Aloud.
DM: Tony...I know you know better. You really want to do this?
Tony: Oh yes. Definitely.
DM shrugs, reaches under table, pulls out a giant Cthulhoid figure and puts it on the map.
DM: You know, I spent two months trying to figure out a way to trick you guys into doing that, and you do it voluntarily in the first three minutes.
Tony: When you run a game, it just brings out my urge to destroy the entire world.

[Slipperychicken]

So.. there's at least a 1/1000 chance of calling in Cthulhu, every time you Bind? By probability, if you're binding one vestige each day, the whole Mythos should be tearing up the Prime Material every few years or so.

[LanSlyde]

So.. there's at least a 1/1000 chance of calling in Cthulhu, every time you Bind? By probability, if you're binding one vestige each day, the whole Mythos should be tearing up the Prime Material every few years or so.

So silly, you can bind "known" vestiges. Or you can attempt to contact something randomly. He just happened to roll the two highest numbers on the table.:smalltongue:

[Blueiji]

The Demented One actually made Vestiges based off the Cthulhu mythos.

They're located in these four threads. One, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68757) two, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68834) three, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69093) and four. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85280)

[Terumitsu]

Hey! I don't torture... Just.. Give you guys enough rope is all. I can't help it that there is always one person who apparently took Craft: Noose.

[Psyren]

Finally, he's officially pissed off all the other gods. Even Ao was like "wtf mate?".

The end. Discuss!

Not sure what there really is to discuss about a scenario like that. You did the right thing (i.e. haul ass), so... yay? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NiceJobBreakingItHero)

[LanSlyde]

Hey! I don't torture... Just.. Give you guys enough rope is all. I can't help it that there is always one person who apparently took Craft: Noose.

As I said earlier, your a terrible person and you should feel bad.

[Laserlight]

Hey! I don't torture... Just.. Give you guys enough rope is all. I can't help it that there is always one person who apparently took Craft: Noose.

That is Truth.

[Arcanist]

Finally, he's officially pissed off all the other gods. Even Ao was like "wtf mate?".

...


Hey! I don't torture... Just.. Give you guys enough rope is all. I can't help it that there is always one person who apparently took Craft: Noose.

... If you ever do a PbP, can you add me to it? :smallbiggrin: ALSO! If you live in an adjacent state to Colorado, I will gladly make the commute to come and play in your games :smalltongue:

[Aharon]

So, long story short, our current DM has a preference for torturing his PCs and eldritch horrors.

At least he's an equal opportunity torturer :smalltongue:

[ThiagoMartell]

Not sure what there really is to discuss about a scenario like that. You did the right thing (i.e. haul ass), so... yay? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NiceJobBreakingItHero)

Omg, you linked. There goes the rest of my shift.

[Psyren]

Omg, you linked. There goes the rest of my shift.

You're welcome :smallbiggrin:

[LanSlyde]

In all seriousness tho, what would you guys have done in that situation?

[Psyren]

In all seriousness tho, what would you guys have done in that situation?

What you described, though visually cool, was essentially a cutscene. There's nothing to really do in that instance but run, and wait for the plot hook that will eventually (potentially) lead to you fixing everything - possibly gaining a lot of levels in the interim.


Well, I suppose you could have stuck around instead, but I can't imagine what a level 8 party could do to impact events of that magnitude.

[Aharon]

Well, depends on the character. I played a chaos-worshipper once, she probably would have stayed, in awe, and died.

[ExemplarofAvg]

He's Divine Rank 10,
You worship him.
You get your spells, you now can never go against your deity's code.
You can ask him for favours directly.
And you tell me what the race he made was, I want to know.

[LanSlyde]

He's Divine Rank 10,
You worship him.
You get your spells, you now can never go against your deity's code.
You can ask him for favours directly.
And you tell me what the race he made was, I want to know.

While it's interesting, I don't like the idea of worshipping such a being. As soon as one of us comes up with racial stats and what-not I'll post it.

[Black Cross]

Hey! I don't torture... Just.. Give you guys enough rope is all. I can't help it that there is always one person who apparently took Craft: Noose.

With our group it's usually less "Craft (Noose)" and more "in trying to perform amazing rope tricks, little Timmy failed to notice the nearby cliff and tumbled over the edge. As he fell the rope found its way around his neck and the rest is told by the headless body at the bottom of the gorge alongside the smashing new paint job."

Your less than healthy obsession with ancient and terrible eldritch abominations from beyond the stars often leads to the eventual strangulation of any normalcy to be had in what might have otherwise been just a regular f**k up. On the other hand, that sort of thing just happens to cling to you like a bad rash. If you knew how many times I had to re-roll when you used The Hat because it rolled 10,000: The Stars Are Right...

That said, it makes for an exciting tale of one poor bastard (who likely just wanted to bind the vestige of an ancient and powerful chef so he could use his abilities to craft himself a sandwich) summoning the very essence of everything WRONG with the universe and then proceeding to somehow turn it around and achieve some manner of munificently benevolent benefit. Also, it provides a picture perfect example of "the best laid schemes of mice and men" going awry. Kind of sorry I had to miss it. However, knowing my luck, if I HAD been there he would likely have failed miserably to maintain control of his mind. He would likely then have gone bats**t insane and killed everyone. It all worked out for the best. Here's to next week's session and a swift end to things with tentacles on their face asking the party if they'd like a moustache ride!

[LanSlyde]

With our group it's usually less "Craft (Noose)" and more "in trying to perform amazing rope tricks, little Timmy failed to notice the nearby cliff and tumbled over the edge. As he fell the rope found its way around his neck and the rest is told by the headless body at the bottom of the gorge alongside the smashing new paint job."

Your less than healthy obsession with ancient and terrible eldritch abominations from beyond the stars often leads to the eventual strangulation of any normalcy to be had in what might have otherwise been just a regular f**k up. On the other hand, that sort of thing just happens to cling to you like a bad rash. If you knew how many times I had to re-roll when you used The Hat because it rolled 10,000: The Stars Are Right...

That said, it makes for an exciting tale of one poor bastard (who likely just wanted to bind the vestige of an ancient and powerful chef so he could use his abilities to craft himself a sandwich) summoning the very essence of everything WRONG with the universe and then proceeding to somehow turn it around and achieve some manner of munificently benevolent benefit. Also, it provides a picture perfect example of "the best laid schemes of mice and men" going awry. Kind of sorry I had to miss it. However, knowing my luck, if I HAD been there he would likely have failed miserably to maintain control of his mind. He would likely then have gone bats**t insane and killed everyone. It all worked out for the best. Here's to next week's session and a swift end to things with tentacles on their face asking the party if they'd like a moustache ride!



That was probably the most beautiful thing I have read in a while. Remind me to give you shiny bits ingame.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

"Nice trick"

"What, you can do better?"

"Yep"

"Then do it."

Quoth the Kobold: "Pazzu, Pazzu, Pazzu"

[Slipperychicken]

Quoth the Kobold: "Pazzu, Pazzu, Pazzu"

"What's Pazzu? Is that some kind of weird Kobold dish?"

[Madara]

"Nice trick"

"What, you can do better?"

"Yep"

"Then do it."

Quoth the Kobold: "Pazzu, Pazzu, Pazzu"

That's beautiful sir, absolutely beautiful

[LanSlyde]

"What's Pazzu? Is that some kind of weird Kobold dish?"

Pazuzu is one of the Lords of the Abyss, who is surprisingly reliable about granting the wishes of those who summon him by speaking his name 3 times.

[karkus]

"Nice trick"

"What, you can do better?"

"Yep"

"Then do it."

Quoth the Kobold: "Pazzu, Pazzu, Pazzu"

I though that his name was "Pazzuzu..."

Edit: Now I remember; he had around 3 different names, and those were 2 of them.

[AuraTwilight]

I wanna see the stats for this race, plane, and the domain of this deity if and when they become available!

[LanSlyde]

I wanna see the stats for this race, plane, and the domain of this deity if and when they become available!

Information will be posted as it becomes available.

[Duboris]

From the sounds of it, I hope you guys like killing multiple eldritch abominations at the same time.

[TuggyNE]

From the sounds of it, I hope you guys like killing multiple eldritch abominations at the same time.

Who doesn't? :smalltongue:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

From the sounds of it, I hope you guys like killing multiple eldritch abominations at the same time.

Eh, it's an interesting minor diversion for most T1 classes. Clerics, in particular, find it more tedium than challenging. Divine Spellpower + Holy Word = win.

[Black Cross]

Provided said eldritch abomination wasn't built similarly to an Elder Evil. In which case, screw your divine powers. No seriously. And your god's powers while their at it. :P Also, if any encounter provided for the PCs is "tedious" rather than challenging, then the DM is clearly doing something wrong.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Provided said eldritch abomination wasn't built similarly to an Elder Evil. In which case, screw your divine powers. No seriously. And your god's powers while their at it. :P Also, if any encounter provided for the PCs is "tedious" rather than challenging, then the DM is clearly doing something wrong.

Evil Extraplanar Outsider + Holy Word = Buh-bye. Banishment FTW.

Do not pass go, do not make a saving throw, do not collect $200. Have a nice day, back in R'hylea where you belong.

Also Killed, Blinded, Deafened, and Paralyzed, but those are minor compared with booting you out of the Prime.

[Aharon]

Yeah, because all evil extraplanar outsiders are behaving as if a bad videogame AI controlled them, and not the DM, who may be as well-versed in optimization as you are.

There are lots of ways around this particular trick. I don't doubt your ability to come up with more tricks, but killing DvR 10 creatures is by no means easy or tedious if the DM knows what he is doing as well as you do.

[Terumitsu]

Gonna hop in here right quick and say something about this bit on holy word being useful in such a situation. Given how I've fluffed the Elder and Eldritch beings of primordial existence before time and space in my setting, they're not bound by the alignment axis and, as such, just look at such things with an amused smirk.

'Table trumps text,' and so on. Personally, I think it is to their benefit anyway as they are supposed to work in ways that are strange and alien to mortals and those of similar mind. Actually makes them.. Well, inscrutable and strange rather than just a block of stats.

Theory crafting is fine and fun and all, yes, but sometimes it seems to be forgotten that the 'rules' and such are more akin to guidelines subject to the whims of the group playing.

[Duboris]

Gonna hop in here right quick and say something about this bit on holy word being useful in such a situation. Given how I've fluffed the Elder and Eldritch beings of primordial existence before time and space in my setting, they're not bound by the alignment axis and, as such, just look at such things with an amused smirk.

'Table trumps text,' and so on. Personally, I think it is to their benefit anyway as they are supposed to work in ways that are strange and alien to mortals and those of similar mind. Actually makes them.. Well, inscrutable and strange rather than just a block of stats.

Theory crafting is fine and fun and all, yes, but sometimes it seems to be forgotten that the 'rules' and such are more akin to guidelines subject to the whims of the group playing.

I don't know if there was any "Bite" to that, but I got a nice grin out of reading it.

It doesn't sound like a bad idea to make Eldritch Abominations "Alignmentless" which, by all means, throws half a cleric's ideas out the window.

[Exirtadorri]

I'm very curios to know what class and stuff the guy was who summoned pure and raw myth into reality. This sounds like something i'd really like to get to know. Also, what table was this or was it all homebrew? This could be very fun for a game I have running right now. Although, it's strictly PF

[Terumitsu]

He was playing a Binder from the Tome of Magic.

The 'Random Bindings' table, though, is all strictly homebrew. Was a list of things from across the spectrum although the last five were eldritch horrors in which I threw in there just for fun. I basically set it up as a way to get some interesting new bindings if he didn't want to go through the entire process of making a new one in a manner similar to researching a new spell or something.

[Exirtadorri]

Ah. Ok. That makes me sad. Ill look into converting it into a pf class

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't know if there was any "Bite" to that, but I got a nice grin out of reading it.

It doesn't sound like a bad idea to make Eldritch Abominations "Alignmentless" which, by all means, throws half a cleric's ideas out the window.

Banishment spell works as well. Not automatic, but you can make the contested check effectively impossible with Divine Spellpower + Cracksticks. Doesn't kill him, but it removes him as a problem.

Kill Cthulu? Even easier. See also: Mailman. See also: Stuffy doll exercise. Eat an arbitrary amount of damage until you simply fall over. Or Titan/Solar Gate Chain (I don't think the Solars would be upset for being infini-summoned to combat an Elder God bent on destroying the whole mythos). Or Ice Assassins.

The problem with Lovecraftian Mythos in D&D is that in Lovecraftian mythos, you aren't powerful enough to kill deities. In fact, you aren't powerful enough to survive a run-in with a single cultist. In D&D, dieticide can be an amusing pastime by about level 10.

Cthulhu: "I can kill GODS!"

Any T1 class: "Phhth, is that all? Come on, I thought you said you were a challenge"

C: I can drive you insane!

T1: I'm an omnicidal hobo who gains power by ruthlessly slaughtering my opponents. I think I'm pretty much beyond that by now.

C: Well, I can warp reality itself!

T1: Old hat.

C: But... but...

T1: Let's face it, you've been replaced. I'm far scarier, more insane, more powerful, and in general, more of a threat to reality than you are.

C: *cries in a corner*

[Black Cross]

I hate when this kind of thing comes up, mostly because I dislike having to point out something that should be quite clear to experienced players. Elder evils are, to be sure, potent beings of evil. However, they're typically fairly low in CR for purposes of challenging parties. Additionally, they typically take forms like aspects or avatars. There are no actual rules that allow for a party to ever truly face the full power of such an entity. (Unless you lose; in which case, the "rules consist of everyone pretty much getting screwed to some degree or another.) Even with the scale down, these tiny fragments of evil are still a bane to divine casters. When taking into perspective the true power of a Great Old One, we equate it more to the full power of an elder evil rather than what the party actually faces. For purposes of this example, I'll use the elder evil I consider to be my personal favorite: Pandorym.

First, lets go over the ways he slowly cripples your divine casters as his presence becomes known, as well as when you have to face him:


SIGN: SEAL OF BINDING

This sign manifests as a glyph that spreads across the sky and increasingly
interferes with planar communication and transportation.
Faint: Conjuration (calling, summoning, and teleportation)
and divination spells and similar spell-like abilities are impeded,
meaning that a caster must succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 20
+ the level of the spell) or lose the spell or spell slot without effect.
In addition, spells that forcibly return creatures to their native
plane, such as banishment and dismissal, automatically fail.

Moderate: As faint, but in addition, summoned creatures no
longer return to their native planes. When a summoning spell’s
duration expires, the summoned creature is no longer under the
caster’s control.
Divine spellcasters have difficulty drawing on the Positive
Energy and Negative Energy planes, and they cannot communicate
easily with their deities. Divine spells are cast at –1 caster
level, and turn or rebuke attempts take a –5 penalty on the check
and damage rolls.

Strong: As moderate, but in addition, a conjuration (teleportation)
spell or similar spell-like ability has a 20% chance of a
mishap (see teleport, PH 293), regardless of familiarity with the
destination. The spell fails, and the caster and all others affected
by the casting each take 5d6 points of damage.
The connection with the transitive planes and the Outer
Planes grows more tenuous. Divine spells are cast at –2 caster
level, and turn or rebuke attempts take a –10 penalty on the
check and damage rolls.

Overwhelming: All conjuration (calling, summoning, and
teleportation) effects cease to function. Divination effects that
contact extraplanar beings (such as commune and contact other
plane) are likewise foiled. Divine spellcasters attempting to
replenish their spells for the day incur a 20% chance per spell
of not gaining the spell or spell slot. Divine spells are cast at –4
caster level, and turn or rebuke attempts take a –20 penalty on
the check and damage rolls.
-----------------
Then there's:
Divine Enervation (Su): All divine spellcasters lose the ability
to regain spells so long as they remain within 1,000 miles
of a mind shard of Pandorym. This interdiction does not
interfere with spellcasting.

Divinity Siphon (Su): As a standard action, a mind shard of
Pandorym can form a siphoning bond with a creature
within 90 feet that can cast divine spells or has a divine
caster level of at least 1st. The caster must make a DC 48
Will save to resist this ability. If the bond is established,
the caster gains 1d4 negative levels per round. For each
negative level the caster gains, the mind shard heals 20
hit points. The bond lasts for up to 10 rounds, or until the
mind shard breaks it or the caster dies. A caster who receives
as many negative levels as Hit Dice dies and rises
as a dread wraith in the following round.
A mind shard can have only one siphoning bond active
at a time. Maintaining a bond requires no effort.

Anathematic Secrecy (Su): A mind shard of Pandorym is immune
to all divine divination spell effects.

Also, we have his Elder Evil immunities.

Immunities (Ex): Elder evils have immunity to polymorphing,
petrification, and any other spell or ability that alters their
form. They are not subject to energy drain, ability drain, ability
damage, or death from massive damage. They are immune to
mind-affecting spells and abilities. Most elder evils have immunity
to a specific energy type, depending on their nature.

He also has non-detection as cast by a 20th level caster, so there's that to keep you from sniffing him out.


Next, let's take a peek at the big bad "himself". What you actually end up fighting is NOT Pandorym himself, or even the full brunt of his consciousness. What you actually fight is just a tiny fragment of his mind. Essentially, you are doing battle with, "You know, I never realized how much I like cheese." I'm not saying Pandorym does or does not like cheese, merely that this type of fleeting thought that oozes out of the crystal is CR 25... Oh, and did I mention that, "Did I remember my keys," has 50HD? I should have; it's kind of important.

Extrasolar eldritch abominations of the magnitude of a Great Old One are on the same level of power as Pandorym's unified body and mind. Given that they themselves qualify as Elder Evils, they eat your divine casters and crap them out into a corner to watch as the Lovecraftian horror creams the rest of your party. That is, unless you brought a wizard to the fight. Even at that point, you're not facing some puny aspect of a greater being; you're actually skipping the middle man and going right to facing the greater being.

If you have a competent DM sitting in the chair, you're NEVER going to just steamroll an encounter. The only trouble is centered in the fact that, if you build an encounter to specifically withstand awesome casters, you'll typically end up benching the melee brutes. Not saying they can't contribute at all, but they'll more or less be useful in the same way that a napkin is useful. Thus, unless you've got a gished out party and/or have dipped heavily into the Velveeta, no. Just no.

As for your banishment idea:

Body: Pandorym’s physical component does not truly exist as a body in the multiverse but is a conduit to the incomprehensible reality of its home. It manifests as a 30-foot-diameter sphere of annihilation (DMG 279), but no being—not even a deity—can control it, even using a talisman of the sphere. Any attempt to control the Gargantuan orb instead causes it to slide 90 feet toward the creature. Touching the entity with a rod of cancellation destroys the rod and causes Pandorym’s nonbody to slide into the square
from which the rod touched it. With the seal of binding sign in effect, spells that force an extraplanar creature away do not affect Pandorym. However, a gate spell cast on it has a 5% chance of sending it back to its transdimensional prison (nothing happens otherwise).
Like a sphere of annihilation, Pandorym’s non body destroys everything it touches, aside from deities.
The ancient wizards hid Pandorym’s body in a secret location in a distant part of the kingdom, far from the crystalline prison that holds its mind.

Pandorym does not approve, and you can't even USE gate when the Overwhelming sign is in effect. Thus, there goes your Titan/Solar gate idea. Besides, he's the only real printed encounter that pretty much states that, if you lose, it's game over, there are no survivors, everyone is obliterated, and this "universe" is no more.

Now, please stop attempting to crush the DMs (and, by proxy, our) fun. When I want a challenge, I play D&D with my group (or play the original NES Ninja Gaiden or XCom, whichever strikes my fancy) because we have a competent set of DMs who know how to challenge their players. If I want to just walk over things with no regard to my personal safety, I go play a videogame that has a god-mode option (or God of War, because why not).

[Sith_Happens]

Stuff

You know, I was going to spend a few sentences pointing out to Shneekey that he obviously either glossed over the phrase "Elder Evil," or has not read the book of that name to know that such a being generally comes pre-packaged with its own unique variety of "(Su): Screw your puny magic. Especially divine magic. Seriously, if your DM even let you play a cleric in this campaign then you should smack him upside the head with the PHB." But a full breakdown of the toughest one in the book works too.:smalleek:

[LanSlyde]

So... Teru, did either you or Zamori figure out racial traits for the squidbillies that Hakon/Azathoth/Cthulu created? Also, have we figured out the divine traits for our level 8 (lol) lesser deity?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I hate when this kind of thing comes up, mostly because I dislike having to point out something that should be quite clear to experienced players. Elder evils are, to be sure, potent beings of evil. However, they're typically fairly low in CR for purposes of challenging parties. Additionally, they typically take forms like aspects or avatars. There are no actual rules that allow for a party to ever truly face the full power of such an entity. (Unless you lose; in which case, the "rules consist of everyone pretty much getting screwed to some degree or another.) Even with the scale down, these tiny fragments of evil are still a bane to divine casters. When taking into perspective the true power of a Great Old One, we equate it more to the full power of an elder evil rather than what the party actually faces. For purposes of this example, I'll use the elder evil I consider to be my personal favorite: Pandorym.

First, lets go over the ways he slowly cripples your divine casters as his presence becomes known, as well as when you have to face him:


SIGN: SEAL OF BINDING

This sign manifests as a glyph that spreads across the sky and increasingly
interferes with planar communication and transportation.
Faint: Conjuration (calling, summoning, and teleportation)
and divination spells and similar spell-like abilities are impeded,
meaning that a caster must succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 20
+ the level of the spell) or lose the spell or spell slot without effect.
In addition, spells that forcibly return creatures to their native
plane, such as banishment and dismissal, automatically fail.

Moderate: As faint, but in addition, summoned creatures no
longer return to their native planes. When a summoning spell’s
duration expires, the summoned creature is no longer under the
caster’s control.
Divine spellcasters have difficulty drawing on the Positive
Energy and Negative Energy planes, and they cannot communicate
easily with their deities. Divine spells are cast at –1 caster
level, and turn or rebuke attempts take a –5 penalty on the check
and damage rolls.

Strong: As moderate, but in addition, a conjuration (teleportation)
spell or similar spell-like ability has a 20% chance of a
mishap (see teleport, PH 293), regardless of familiarity with the
destination. The spell fails, and the caster and all others affected
by the casting each take 5d6 points of damage.
The connection with the transitive planes and the Outer
Planes grows more tenuous. Divine spells are cast at –2 caster
level, and turn or rebuke attempts take a –10 penalty on the
check and damage rolls.

Overwhelming: All conjuration (calling, summoning, and
teleportation) effects cease to function. Divination effects that
contact extraplanar beings (such as commune and contact other
plane) are likewise foiled. Divine spellcasters attempting to
replenish their spells for the day incur a 20% chance per spell
of not gaining the spell or spell slot. Divine spells are cast at –4
caster level, and turn or rebuke attempts take a –20 penalty on
the check and damage rolls.
-----------------
Then there's:
Divine Enervation (Su): All divine spellcasters lose the ability
to regain spells so long as they remain within 1,000 miles
of a mind shard of Pandorym. This interdiction does not
interfere with spellcasting.

Divinity Siphon (Su): As a standard action, a mind shard of
Pandorym can form a siphoning bond with a creature
within 90 feet that can cast divine spells or has a divine
caster level of at least 1st. The caster must make a DC 48
Will save to resist this ability. If the bond is established,
the caster gains 1d4 negative levels per round. For each
negative level the caster gains, the mind shard heals 20
hit points. The bond lasts for up to 10 rounds, or until the
mind shard breaks it or the caster dies. A caster who receives
as many negative levels as Hit Dice dies and rises
as a dread wraith in the following round.
A mind shard can have only one siphoning bond active
at a time. Maintaining a bond requires no effort.

Anathematic Secrecy (Su): A mind shard of Pandorym is immune
to all divine divination spell effects.

Also, we have his Elder Evil immunities.

Immunities (Ex): Elder evils have immunity to polymorphing,
petrification, and any other spell or ability that alters their
form. They are not subject to energy drain, ability drain, ability
damage, or death from massive damage. They are immune to
mind-affecting spells and abilities. Most elder evils have immunity
to a specific energy type, depending on their nature.

He also has non-detection as cast by a 20th level caster, so there's that to keep you from sniffing him out.


Next, let's take a peek at the big bad "himself". What you actually end up fighting is NOT Pandorym himself, or even the full brunt of his consciousness. What you actually fight is just a tiny fragment of his mind. Essentially, you are doing battle with, "You know, I never realized how much I like cheese." I'm not saying Pandorym does or does not like cheese, merely that this type of fleeting thought that oozes out of the crystal is CR 25... Oh, and did I mention that, "Did I remember my keys," has 50HD? I should have; it's kind of important.

Extrasolar eldritch abominations of the magnitude of a Great Old One are on the same level of power as Pandorym's unified body and mind. Given that they themselves qualify as Elder Evils, they eat your divine casters and crap them out into a corner to watch as the Lovecraftian horror creams the rest of your party. That is, unless you brought a wizard to the fight. Even at that point, you're not facing some puny aspect of a greater being; you're actually skipping the middle man and going right to facing the greater being.

If you have a competent DM sitting in the chair, you're NEVER going to just steamroll an encounter. The only trouble is centered in the fact that, if you build an encounter to specifically withstand awesome casters, you'll typically end up benching the melee brutes. Not saying they can't contribute at all, but they'll more or less be useful in the same way that a napkin is useful. Thus, unless you've got a gished out party and/or have dipped heavily into the Velveeta, no. Just no.

As for your banishment idea:

Body: Pandorym’s physical component does not truly exist as a body in the multiverse but is a conduit to the incomprehensible reality of its home. It manifests as a 30-foot-diameter sphere of annihilation (DMG 279), but no being—not even a deity—can control it, even using a talisman of the sphere. Any attempt to control the Gargantuan orb instead causes it to slide 90 feet toward the creature. Touching the entity with a rod of cancellation destroys the rod and causes Pandorym’s nonbody to slide into the square
from which the rod touched it. With the seal of binding sign in effect, spells that force an extraplanar creature away do not affect Pandorym. However, a gate spell cast on it has a 5% chance of sending it back to its transdimensional prison (nothing happens otherwise).
Like a sphere of annihilation, Pandorym’s non body destroys everything it touches, aside from deities.
The ancient wizards hid Pandorym’s body in a secret location in a distant part of the kingdom, far from the crystalline prison that holds its mind.

Pandorym does not approve, and you can't even USE gate when the Overwhelming sign is in effect. Thus, there goes your Titan/Solar gate idea. Besides, he's the only real printed encounter that pretty much states that, if you lose, it's game over, there are no survivors, everyone is obliterated, and this "universe" is no more.

Now, please stop attempting to crush the DMs (and, by proxy, our) fun. When I want a challenge, I play D&D with my group (or play the original NES Ninja Gaiden or XCom, whichever strikes my fancy) because we have a competent set of DMs who know how to challenge their players. If I want to just walk over things with no regard to my personal safety, I go play a videogame that has a god-mode option (or God of War, because why not).

Again, a trivial challenge. You -really- should hop over to the Stuffy Doll challenge thread to have an idea of what a T1 character can pull off.

I'm not trying to ruin anyone's fun, I'm trying to point out how absolutely silly it is to try and run a horror genre game of any flavor in D&D. The mechanics of D&D is set up for 'yes you can', while any horror genre should have rules set up along the lines of 'no you can't'.

Any of the base classes (yes, even the Monk) are horridly overpowered for a proper horror genre game. The rules and mechanics simply favor being able to kill literally anything, because that's generally what PC's do.

In a classic horror genre game, your main character isn't going to be a cleric able to call down miracles or wizards capable of re-writing reality. If anything, these are the antagonists... crazed cultist priests capable of warping reality with the power of elder beings or arcane wizards who have been driven mad with knowledge of the cosmos. In D&D, it's an accepted archetype for players. PC's, particularly Clerics, Wizards, Druids, and Sorcerers, warp reality far more than any eldritch evil. And they do it on a daily basis.

In other words, it would take so many house-rules (such as the ones listed in your post, which aren't even particularly effective at limiting PC power) to get it to sort-of work that you might as well use a different system of mechanics. I hear there's this game called Call of Cthulhu which might do well. But 3.5? Just has too high a power curve for PC's to work effectively as a horror game.

[HunterColt22]

Compressed for reading sake.

There is more to horror and survival than the pure power of the PC. :/ House rules don't even have to be used at a given time considering that horror can be injected into the scenario at certain points of the campaign where the PCs simply can't deal with it at the time because of their current status, and what they have access to at that moment or sequence.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There is more to horror and survival than the pure power of the PC. :/ House rules don't even have to be used at a given time considering that horror can be injected into the scenario at certain points of the campaign where the PCs simply can't deal with it at the time because of their current status, and what they have access to at that moment or sequence.

I've never encountered such. Encounters tend to be either 'we can take this' or 'too powerful, retreat so we can power up to beat it'. There's very little 'horror' involved. Besides, with how easy it is to become immune to mind-affecting (Protection from Evil at least suppresses it) which includes most fear effects, horror really isn't something a typical PC is capable of.

The only way to introduce something the PC's simply can't deal with is to DMPC or CR+8, and even then, only at low (1st through 5th) levels. Both of those strategies are difficult to pull off without either looking like an arse-pull or being arbitrary 'rocks fall, everyone dies'.

Let's face it. When the 'weak sister' of the party is dishing out some few thousand damage a round, eldritch horrors really aren't that scary.

It's why I'm not a fan of the horror genre in general. Evil wins because good is stupid. It's just as boring as a self-insert fantasy fulfillment mary sue story. The only difference between Eleminster and Elder Evils is that the former makes everyone worship him through fanatic devotion and the latter through insanity and fear.

[Kazyan]

Again, a trivial challenge. You -really- should hop over to the Stuffy Doll challenge thread to have an idea of what a T1 character can pull off.

The amount of optimization required to kill the Stuffy Doll even in one of its much earlier incarnations is anathema to horror games anyway; it has nothing to do with T1 characters. If you took the same attitude towards the Soulborn that you did with a Wizard, you wouldn't enjoy the genre.

Also, Cthulhu-stomping behavior of T1s is only true in high optimization, where the stories aren't really about physical conflict anyway and you're using tools beyond the Gentleman's Agreement of many groups. In mid-op, a few Gibbering Orbs will murder a level 15 wizard.

So you can't run a horror game with high-op T1s. You can't run any other kind of game involving physical conflict, either. In mid or low op, horror would work fine.

[Arcanist]

Again, a trivial challenge. You -really- should hop over to the Stuffy Doll challenge thread to have an idea of what a T1 character can pull off.

I swear, you are paladin'ing my little Stuffy Doll *places in sig for convenience sake* :smallsigh:


In other words, it would take so many house-rules (such as the ones listed in your post, which aren't even particularly effective at limiting PC power) to get it to sort-of work that you might as well use a different system of mechanics. I hear there's this game called Call of Cthulhu which might do well. But 3.5? Just has too high a power curve for PC's to work effectively as a horror game.

So very true. CoC is much more effective for horrifying your players then 3.5 ed D&D. Even using Heroes of Horror the game does not get that scary because you always know that you can have a panic button ready just in case because you CAN have one. In a CoC game you don't get one of those, in fact sometimes the game will be purposely built to give you one when you don't need it and then suddenly take it away just to build more despair and fear for you... :smallamused: So if you want a Horror game, then play a game of Call of Cthulhu D20. The system can be adjusted to include other games as well (Hell, I played one based on Amnesia: The Dark Decent).

[Duboris]

In other words, it would take so many house-rules (such as the ones listed in your post, which aren't even particularly effective at limiting PC power) to get it to sort-of work that you might as well use a different system of mechanics. I hear there's this game called Call of Cthulhu which might do well. But 3.5? Just has too high a power curve for PC's to work effectively as a horror game.

So, should I be the first one to inform him that those aren't house rules, or can I just sit here with a ****ty grin for the rest of the day?

Also, 3.5, d20, whichever you play, based on the DM and his flavorful tastes, can easily make a DnD horror campaign.

At the end of the day, whether you homebrew/houserule the fact of the matter is, is that anything is possible in these games. When a T1 group is gonna have something thrown at it, you don't just throw 1 thing at it, you have a plethora of things that, if left unchecked, will kill you outright without questions.

An Elder Evil isn't going to show up unless the world, or wherever you are, is going to complete ****. Have you ever watched Berserk? It's the equivalent of the Arc Finale where Every single person you know and love is killed by minor eldritch abominations, and just to drive the point home the elder evil might just rape your love interest while you're pinned by like 5 evils, just cause it knows it can, and that's amusing.

Don't get me wrong, it's certainly killable, but I believe I need to make it more simple.

If you're being placed in a horror campaign, where the big bad is a fleeting thought of an elder evil, there's potentially 2 things that aren't going to happen if the DM wants to keep you in a sense of "Oh holy **** I'm going to die"

Thing 1: He won't allow T1 Equipment, and probably not even what's below that. If you want someone to play a horror campaign, the last thing you give them is a significantly good means to kill every "horror" that shows up. It's a game of running away, and only occasionally hurting something.

Thing 2: It won't be an advancing wall of doom.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I swear, you are paladin'ing my little Stuffy Doll *places in sig for convenience sake* :smallsigh:Credit where credit is due. I may not prefer to partake in progressive challenges like that, but it really does showcase a lot of why Tier 1 classes really are that overpowered.


So very true. CoC is much more effective for horrifying your players then 3.5 ed D&D. Even using Heroes of Horror the game does not get that scary because you always know that you can have a panic button ready just in case because you CAN have one. In a CoC game you don't get one of those, in fact sometimes the game will be purposely built to give you one when you don't need it and then suddenly take it away just to build more despair and fear for you... :smallamused: So if you want a Horror game, then play a game of Call of Cthulhu D20. The system can be adjusted to include other games as well (Hell, I played one based on Amnesia: The Dark Decent).

Indeed. D&D games just have too many win buttons and escape hatches to induce a level of horror. Heck, DimDoor, available by level 7, is an escape button. From that point on, it's practically impossible to trap a party somewhere they don't want to be.


So, should I be the first one to inform him that those aren't house rules, or can I just sit here with a ****ty grin for the rest of the day? I consider third party content just using someone else's house rules.


Also, 3.5, d20, whichever you play, based on the DM and his flavorful tastes, can easily make a DnD horror campaign.

At the end of the day, whether you homebrew/houserule the fact of the matter is, is that anything is possible in these games. When a T1 group is gonna have something thrown at it, you don't just throw 1 thing at it, you have a plethora of things that, if left unchecked, will kill you outright without questions.And each T1 class has ways of checking everything, yes even that.


An Elder Evil isn't going to show up unless the world, or wherever you are, is going to complete ****. Have you ever watched Berserk? It's the equivalent of the Arc Finale where Every single person you know and love is killed by minor eldritch abominations, and just to drive the point home the elder evil might just rape your love interest while you're pinned by like 5 evils, just cause it knows it can, and that's amusing.

Don't get me wrong, it's certainly killable, but I believe I need to make it more simple.

If you're being placed in a horror campaign, where the big bad is a fleeting thought of an elder evil, there's potentially 2 things that aren't going to happen if the DM wants to keep you in a sense of "Oh holy **** I'm going to die"

Thing 1: He won't allow T1 Equipment, and probably not even what's below that. If you want someone to play a horror campaign, the last thing you give them is a significantly good means to kill every "horror" that shows up. It's a game of running away, and only occasionally hurting something.

Thing 2: It won't be an advancing wall of doom.

Ahem...

"Oh sure, it works really well, you just remove half of the rules and two of the major underpinning mechanics of the game and it works just fine".

If you have to fix it to make it work, then it probably isn't the tool to use. Within every tool, there resides a hammer, but that doesn't mean that should be their primary use.

Remove equipment and half the classes in the game, and you really aren't playing D&D anymore. Wizards and Clerics are iconic classes, even in the Gygax days when you COULD effectively run a horror game with the rules.

Sure, you could eventually pare down the rules until you have something that could fit the genre, but it would be a mass and tangle of house rules to keep the party within the power limits you want. And even then, your players can ALWAYS find a way around it. I would take it as a personal challenge to break the game at that point. Or, you could use a system which is actually designed for it from the get-go. Heck, that's how Legend got started... from the old Test of Spite competitions.

I maintain my position: D&D 3.5 is a poor mechanical system to run a horror genre game in, because there is too much you'd have to change to be able to invoke much horror in your players.

[Sith_Happens]

So, should I be the first one to inform him that those aren't house rules, or can I just sit here with a ****ty grin for the rest of the day?

Refer to post #42. You would be the second to point it out.

EDIT:


I consider third party content just using someone else's house rules.

It's first-party though.


I maintain my position: D&D 3.5 is a poor mechanical system to run a horror genre game in, because there is too much you'd have to change to be able to invoke much horror in your players.

Past a certain level of optimization, yes, that is true. At least some of the people in this thread have conceded that point. The important part is that if you're attempting to run a horror game, there is (or at least should be) a gentlemen's agreement that the players won't resort to the sort of measures that can't reasonably be countered.

[Duboris]

Past a certain level of optimization, yes, that is true. At least some of the people in this thread have conceded that point. The important part is that if you're attempting to run a horror game, there is (or at least should be) a gentlemen's agreement that the players won't resort to the sort of measures that can't reasonably be countered.

In other words, if your going to play a horror game, make sure no PC has the "I want to be a brilliant, destructive, god of war" because that's bad.

Horror games are easy to play without removing *any* of the mechanics, you just have to keep optimization of characters to "Sub Par"

Which, judging from Shneeky's points of view, is a sin.

Also for the sake of not wanting to get into a heated discussion about Optimizing vs Not-Optimizing, I'm just going to let by-gons be by-gons and say that if I wanted to play a horror campaign, I would intentionally not attempt to become capable of killing the stuff that's chasing me through the hallways.

[Kazyan]

Which, judging from Shneeky's points of view, is a sin.

Not what he said, and I'm pretty sure this thread is about to get heated.

[Duboris]

Not what he said, and I'm pretty sure this thread is about to get heated.

changed accordingly.

[Sith_Happens]

changed accordingly.

Well, sort of...:smallsigh:

[LanSlyde]

Come on boys and girls, we have people eagerly awaiting stats for our recently created abominations. I really don't want to have to start a new thread simply to post said stats.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Not what he said, and I'm pretty sure this thread is about to get heated.

Nah, he's entitled to his opinions.

The problem is that you don't really need 'high op' to become practically immortal. Rope Trick means you can nova every encounter, because it's effectively a reset button, from about level four on. That's not optimization, that's a single 2nd level spell.

Once you get Dimension Door, by level 7, you're effectively unable to be trapped. Also by that time, you get Freedom of Movement and Death Ward from your Cleric.

Heck, your whole party can become immune to mind-affecting at 1st level with Protection from Evil.

These aren't uber optimization tricks, these are basic spells in the SRD that pretty much shut down any attempt at playing a horror genre.

It's simple... give a PC a problem, and he will find a solution. Send mind-affecting at the party, they will start spamming Protection from Evil to protect themselves. Start trapping them, they make sure to get access to Dimension Door, or Teleport, or something along those lines. It stops being a horror genre story and starts being a three-legged race between the GM to throw horrors at the party and the party making the horrors not so horrifying.

Expecting the party to not try and protect themselves is silly. They're adventurers it's their entire reason for existing... to overcome challenges. Handing them challenges is what a GM does. Overcoming them is what PC's do. You can't expect that they will willingly allow themselves to be vulnerable to a particular tactic over and over, can you?

At high-optimization, there is literally no challenge a PC cannot overcome. However, even at low-op, unless you are deliberately nerfing yourself by refusing to make intelligent choices about gear and spells, there's still no way to really make a horror genre campaign really work.

[Aharon]

@Shneekey
Rope Trick => Time Constraints may prevent this. Intelligent foes may mean you have to leave the dungeon, otherwise there could be nasty surprises. Also, do you really want to spend two of your second level slots on Rope Trick? They are the best thing you have at 4th level.

The other buffs work fine, but when you get them, the same question applies - every slot you use for freedom of movement or death ward can't be spent on offense.

Concerning the greater point: I think horror can work, if it depends on atmosphere and not on game abilities. All the stuff that's just comically overemphasized in the Book of Vile Darkness can make for a horrific game even if the players have tools to combat the BBEG. But I also agree that other games are far more suited for the genre.

[Sajiri]

Well this was an amusing read to start an otherwise mind-crushingly boring day of work :p Thankyou

[dascarletm]

Your point in general

I'm currently playing a horror campaign, Cthulhu and whatnot. We are using E6 rules, which have proven to work real good with this. We have T1 classes in the party and it isn't a problem. To play in a horror campaign you need to, well, play in a horror campaign.

It is up to the players as much as the DM to set the mood, and if you are going to be a jerk to the DM and ruin the mood he and everyone else is trying to obtain, then gtfo and play in a cookie-cutter DnD campaign :smalltongue:.

The wizard fights according to his character, not according to uber-optimization. Sure, he could have the power to kill all adversaries, but he instead focuses on keeping his sanity yet uncovering more dark secrets!


Horror campaigns work if the party wants to play in a horror campaign. It is usually the case that everyone decides that it is going to be such a campaign.

[Arcanist]

I'm currently playing a horror campaign, Cthulhu and whatnot. We are using E6 rules, which have proven to work real good with this. We have T1 classes in the party and it isn't a problem. To play in a horror campaign you need to, well, play in a horror campaign.

Well here's the thing... The moment your Wizard takes levels in Divine Oracle, he is effectively able to ruin the campaign (even if you're playing with Sanity rules. A craft (alchemy) 25 isn't that hard to make if you really put your mind to it). Also a Wand of Lesser Restoration isn't to hard to obtain as well :smallsmile:


The wizard fights according to his character, not according to uber-optimization. Sure, he could have the power to kill all adversaries, but he instead focuses on keeping his sanity yet uncovering more dark secrets!

The thing about a Horror game is that you aren't exactly fighting anything (maybe some cultist or something). You're surviving everything that comes at you and trying to... what is that thing? OH! Not die! :smallbiggrin:


Horror campaigns work if the party wants to play in a horror campaign. It is usually the case that everyone decides that it is going to be such a campaign.

Incorrect. Horror Campaigns only work if you can sweep the players up with the fear. A Gimmick, something in the room or an effect that can really scare the party and make the players feel like they are actually in the game.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm currently playing a horror campaign, Cthulhu and whatnot. We are using E6 rules, which have proven to work real good with this. We have T1 classes in the party and it isn't a problem. To play in a horror campaign you need to, well, play in a horror campaign.

It is up to the players as much as the DM to set the mood, and if you are going to be a jerk to the DM and ruin the mood he and everyone else is trying to obtain, then gtfo and play in a cookie-cutter DnD campaign :smalltongue:.

The wizard fights according to his character, not according to uber-optimization. Sure, he could have the power to kill all adversaries, but he instead focuses on keeping his sanity yet uncovering more dark secrets!


Horror campaigns work if the party wants to play in a horror campaign. It is usually the case that everyone decides that it is going to be such a campaign.

There are other mechanical chassis which work far more effectively for this style of play than D&D 3.5. As I said before, any tool can be used as a hammer, but that doesn't mean any tool should.

And hey, thanks for trying to label me the villian for playing D&D 3.5 instead of Call of Cthulhu with... yanno... D&D 3.5. I'm clearly at fault for wanting to use a screwdriver on screws instead of nails. Yep, silly me for wanting to use the actual rules in the PhB instead of wanting to put in so many house rules and gentleman's agreements that it is nearly unrecognizable.

When I want to play a mechanically balanced game where all characters can meaningfully contribute, I play Legend. When I want to play as a nearly helpless victim of a cruel and insane multiverse, I play Call of Cthulhu. When I want to destress by completely obliterating everything that shows up on the board, I play D&D 3.5.

I wouldn't use Call of Cthulhu if I wanted to play a game of high fantasy of Swords and Sorcerers. I certainly wouldn't play D&D 3.5 if I was worried about game balance. And I wouldn't play Legend if I wanted to create a character that can trivially curbstomp everything.

I therefore maintain: If you have to fix the system with gentleman's agreements or house rules to make it work, then it isn't functional for that purpose. Thus D&D 3.5 is a poor system for the Horror genre, because you have to deliberately build sub-par characters and ignore even the most basic tools which the game normally balances around the assumption of you owning in order to try and get it to work.

[Kazyan]

<Rope Trick, DimDoor, Protection from Evil, etc.>

Humm. Welp, that convinces me. If you get the ability to create a bubble of nigh-impenetrable safety at level 3, the DM can't make you feel very threatened, and 'fear doesn't work on me anymore' ruins the point of horror.

Once again, casters ruin everything. (Except it's not limited to casters, even. Paladins ignore fear, too...)

[Black Cross]

All right, folks. This has gone horribly off topic, and I'm partially at fault. Thus, let's just assume the following:

Pandorym, an ancient and unbelievably powerful evil from beyond the veil that separates universes, has finally had his mind rejoined with his body because the T1 took too bloody long trying to figure out how best to optimize his casting ability so that the entire party gets robbed of a fun gaming experience. Pandorym proceeds to destroy the Prime Material and the surrounding planes, everyone in them (including your now worthless T1), and this section of realty is no more. Please begin rolling up a level one character as we whisk you away to another time in another universe that is far removed from the horrors that have been witnessed here.

Now that this has been handled, let's leave some room for the discussion/posting of information concerning the offspring of Eldritch Power and PC insanity. Thank you. That is all.

Oh, and in case Shneekey thinks to claim "third-party" again, here's some educational material for you: Elder Evils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Evils)

[ryu]

slow time demiplane. See? A T1 doesn't have to care about time. A snarky one can do that with straight timestops and planar bubbles directly in front of the main villain.

[Arcanist]

slow time demiplane. See? A T1 doesn't have to care about time. A snarky one can do that with straight timestops and planar bubbles directly in front of the main villain.

Just to make it more funny, make a planar bubble of the Demiplane of Time. w00t Teleport through Time whenever you want! :smallbiggrin:

[ryu]

Can I enchant it to attach it to a carriage and refluff it? If so we're going meta.

[The Glyphstone]

Can I enchant it to attach it to a carriage and refluff it? If so we're going meta.

Only if you paint it blue.


Also,
Great Modthulhu: Play nice, people.



Yes, I am aware of the staggering irony.

[ryu]

Sweet. Now all we need is to fill multiple carriage tropes at once. I need an incredibly powerful old man sidekick, a band of misfit heroes, and approximately twenty time banditos for the ambush.

[Arcanist]

Only if you paint it blue.


Also,
Great Modthulhu: Play nice, people.



Yes, I am aware of the staggering irony.

I'm torn... I don't know if I should laugh a little, a lot, or just quake in fear at the horrific power that is the Great Modthulhu :smallconfused:

[ryu]

I can't speak for glyph, but my answer would be yes.

[dascarletm]

There are other mechanical chassis which work far more effectively for this style of play than D&D 3.5. As I said before, any tool can be used as a hammer, but that doesn't mean any tool should.
Just saying it works for us quite well, and a lot easier than going out and getting a new system when everyone is familiar with 3.5


And hey, thanks for trying to label me the villian for playing D&D 3.5 instead of Call of Cthulhu with... yanno... D&D 3.5. I'm clearly at fault for wanting to use a screwdriver on screws instead of nails. Yep, silly me for wanting to use the actual rules in the PhB instead of wanting to put in so many house rules and gentleman's agreements that it is nearly unrecognizable.
That was totally my point!
But seriously, I'm just giving my opinion on the matter, which was different than yours. That doesn't mean I'm trying to make you the villain.


When I want to play a mechanically balanced game where all characters can meaningfully contribute, I play Legend. When I want to play as a nearly helpless victim of a cruel and insane multiverse, I play Call of Cthulhu. When I want to destress by completely obliterating everything that shows up on the board, I play D&D 3.5. I wouldn't use Call of Cthulhu if I wanted to play a game of high fantasy of Swords and Sorcerers. I certainly wouldn't play D&D 3.5 if I was worried about game balance. And I wouldn't play Legend if I wanted to create a character that can trivially curbstomp everything.
That's great, I'm glad you own and are well versed in all those systems. Me and my friends on the other hand play maybe once a month or so? We've invested as much as we want to towards these games already. For us it works with little change to the rules.



I therefore maintain: If you have to fix the system with gentleman's agreements or house rules to make it work, then it isn't functional for that purpose. Thus D&D 3.5 is a poor system for the Horror genre, because you have to deliberately build sub-par characters and ignore even the most basic tools which the game normally balances around the assumption of you owning in order to try and get it to work.
Well that is totally a valid way of going about it. We just have a difference of opinion. Our game doesn't really have much house rules, just E6 which is used in many other games. To obliterate everything in your path you have to build toward it. Building not specifically to obliterate all that stand in your way isn't necessarily sub-par, when the par for the course is Horror Campaign level.:smallwink:


However no need to take my posts as personal slights toward yourself. I do quite respect you Sir Shneekey and did not mean to insult your character or play-style.


Well here's the thing... The moment your Wizard takes levels in Divine Oracle, he is effectively able to ruin the campaign (even if you're playing with Sanity rules. A craft (alchemy) 25 isn't that hard to make if you really put your mind to it). Also a Wand of Lesser Restoration isn't to hard to obtain as well :smallsmile:
E6, and he's not doing that stuff as it would be counter-productive to the type of game he wants to play :smallbiggrin:



The thing about a Horror game is that you aren't exactly fighting anything (maybe some cultist or something). You're surviving everything that comes at you and trying to... what is that thing? OH! Not die! :smallbiggrin:
True, true.


Incorrect. Horror Campaigns only work if you can sweep the players up with the fear. A Gimmick, something in the room or an effect that can really scare the party and make the players feel like they are actually in the game.
Incorrect? So horror campaigns won't work if everyone chips in to set the mood? They only work if they fit the above criteria?

We all just get really deep into the story, each participating. There has yet to be a gimmick or effect, and the mood has been adequate.:smallconfused:

[Arcanist]

E6, and he's not doing that stuff as it would be counter-productive to the type of game he wants to play :smallbiggrin:

How? It's called "surviving" :smalltongue:


Incorrect? So horror campaigns won't work if everyone chips in to set the mood? They only work if they fit the above criteria?

We all just get really deep into the story, each participating. There has yet to be a gimmick or effect, and the mood has been adequate.:smallconfused:

Lets see: atmosphere, player participation, gentlemen agreement, no magical items, level 6 limit, impossibly high sanity checks (otherwise you'll look silly). If the players chip in to set the mood then by all means :smallamused:

Player's scaring players is much better then player's killing players :smallsmile:

[dascarletm]

How? It's called "surviving" :smalltongue:


Oh he's surviving, but only by the skin of his teeth.

I usually find that no matter the power level the challenge will be the same anyway as the DM adapts. Well, unless it is a prewritten campaign.

anyway to the OP, I too am curious on the details of the event.

[Black Cross]

slow time demiplane. See? A T1 doesn't have to care about time. A snarky one can do that with straight timestops and planar bubbles directly in front of the main villain.

Provided that they have the foreknowledge that they would be required to engage in time manipulation to grant them a near limitless span of time in which to plot, scheme, or otherwise devise a plan of attack. Otherwise, it's metagaming (read: using the knowledge you possess out of character concerning the slowly emptying hourglass that counts down to the final confrontation and possible destruction of everything).

If metagaming's your thing, might I humbly suggest the Self-Aware Player Character prestige class that can be found in Bride Of Portable Hole: The Book Of Neurotic Fantasy from E.N. Publishing. Otherwise, simply consign yourself to the unspeakable end to all things that is Pandorym and simply enjoy your last moments in this realm of existence. After which, we politely urge you to return to the original discussion. ^.^

[ryu]

You realize time shenangins are engaged in as a common tactic regardless of dm planning at a truly high powered game right? As in stuff like this often happens for the express purpose of making the universe stand still while the pc plots right? Also if knowing the future is necessary divination isn't metagaming. It's metacharactering. Difference? The wizard is an insane control freak in game and uses the appropriate means to facilitate the knowledge used.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Provided that they have the foreknowledge that they would be required to engage in time manipulation to grant them a near limitless span of time in which to plot, scheme, or otherwise devise a plan of attack. Otherwise, it's metagaming (read: using the knowledge you possess out of character concerning the slowly emptying hourglass that counts down to the final confrontation and possible destruction of everything).Craft Contingency + Celerity obviates metagaming. I simply get an arbitrary amount of turns whenever something emits an area effect that includes me in the radius. Then I use the arbitrary number of turns to deal an arbitrary amount of damage that bypasses immunities to the offending creature before he has a chance to finish his action.

Assuming, of course, that the entire Divination college doesn't give it away before hand. But I'll assume, for your benefit, that the eldritch horror is immune to divination by virtue of being able to emit an arbitrary number of possible futures, being an incarnation of chaos, flooding any potential Divination spell with 'too many possibilities' and thus immune to the Divination college. It won't stop me from Planar Binding one of your minions and forcing the story out of him, of course, but it'll at least make me have to exert more effort than a couple of spells to figure it out before hand. Oh, wait... no it won't. It'll just make me burn a couple of divination spells before realizing that I need to switch tactics.

But then, I've been using 'summon/capture a higher-up minion of BBEG to squeeze the plan out of him' as a tactic since AD&D, so it's not exactly an unusual tactic.

Or, for even more lulzworthyness, summon an Ice Assassin just to be able to question it on its plans, since it possesses all knowledge the original has.


If metagaming's your thing, might I humbly suggest the Self-Aware Player Character prestige class that can be found in Bride Of Portable Hole: The Book Of Neurotic Fantasy from E.N. Publishing. Otherwise, simply consign yourself to the unspeakable end to all things that is Pandorym and simply enjoy your last moments in this realm of existence. After which, we politely urge you to return to the original discussion. ^.^

Only it's not metagaming, no matter how much you'd wish it was. Just reasonable precautions in a world in which eldritch horrors exist and can extinguish reality in the blink of an eye.

Quite frankly, I think this showcases precisely why D&D makes a poor system for a horror genre.

* In a horror game, you don't fight back, you try to survive. If you can fight back, it's no longer horror, it's action/adventure.

* It's impossible to keep PC's from fighting back in D&D 3.5.

* Ergo, despite your attempt at making a horror genre setting, it ends up being action/adventure because the PC's really *CAN* Punch Out Cuthulhu.

[Black Cross]

Only it's not metagaming, no matter how much you'd wish it was.

Oh, but you see, it is. How do I know this? Well, first you would have had to have had foreknowledge that you would need to facilitate the breaking of the space time continuum in order to even begin to prepare to obliterate Pandorym's mind shard and Obligatum VII, which means you'd need to know about Pandorym in the first place (at quite an early level), as well as possess knowledge as to his exact whereabouts. Otherwise, this DM would just assume you dithered about trying to come up with exactly the plan of attack you would need. Besides, if you NEED to fall back on the old "I spam nigh infinite moves" trick, you're just a bad wizard.


Just reasonable precautions in a world in which eldritch horrors exist and can extinguish reality in the blink of an eye.

No DM worh his salt is going to let you in on that little secret, though. Ours certainly doesn't. So there goes a second attempt at metagaming. :P

Additionally, Pandorym doesn't HAVE minions you could gain access to with Planar Binding. So, that idea's out the window. As for Ice Assassin, since you'd be creating a copy of Pandorym (which would be ruled impossible for obvious reasons, even with a 9th level spell), you'd end up breaking the world anyway. Congratulations on having that plan backfire. Even if you somehow managed to just make a copy of his mind, you still wouldn't learn much. Pandorym's mind is pretty much in the dark when it comes to knowing precisely where it is, and it only has ONE goal: the complete destruction of this "universe". Or, we could go one step further and assume you've cloned his body. I praise you on creating a worthless heap of unmoving mass that just sits there and does nothing. Some caster you are. Also, you seem to have forgotten that Ice Assassin has a range of Touch. :P

You were correct about using divinations, though:

Anathematic Secrecy (Su): A mind shard of Pandorym is immune to all divine divination spell effects.

Nondetection (Su): As the nondetection spell; continuous; caster level 20th. (DC 35)

However, the aforementioned scenario doesn't even involve fighting Pandorym's mind shard, or even his full consciousness, but the unified body and mind of said menace. You may not be aware of this, but Pandorym Unified has no stat block. Thus, your pathetic Wizard/IoSV/Incantatrix or whatever mind-numbingly game-breaking combination you've concocted is no worthless and is completely obliterated by the all powerful destroyer of worlds, along with everything else.

And don't get so full of yourself. Even if you succeeded in beating the mind shard, you'd didn't punch out Cthulu. >.> You just managed to temporarily drive, "I wonder what's for dinner," back into the crystal containing his full consciousness. :P

You're just ONE wizard. It took an entire cabal of super high level spell casters just to be able to lure him into the realm, let alone separate his consciousness from his body and trap him. Just give in. It's okay. You can stop fighting. It's over. Rest now, and enjoy the remaining discussion concerning the progeny of otherworldy terror and a madman's grab for ultimate power. n.n

[ShneekeyTheLost]

-Stuff-

Arbitrary ruling against rules as written does not disprove my point, it merely points out that you need to house-rule to get it to 'work'. Invoking 'Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies' still wouldn't kill the caster in question, although it may make him retreat to a different dimension temporarily. It's not like he doesn't have the time to contemplate his actions.

Quite frankly, there's dozens of ways of removing things that can't be removed from existence entirely. The easiest is the infinite damage trick, because damage works on everything. You should've hopped over to the How To Hide My Phylactery thread. Some of the suggestions posited were 'It'll keep anyone from getting to it, because it will remove it from existence entirely, which would screw over the lich in question'. Which would actually be perfect for this.

Collapsing the dimension it was in was a good way to cause it to cease to exist. Abusing Circle Magic to Banish it (using arcane rather than divine) simply removes it out of the Prime. It doesn't solve the problem, but it at least removes the threat.

Your problem is that you're trying a brute-force approach to say 'no', when that is the tactic which is least likely to work. Collapsing a dimension isn't going to stop a Wizard of even moderate optimization. Collapsing every nearby dimension won't either. At worst, it will cause him to temporarily retreat, giving him enough information to realize that he has a potentially annoying opponent which he needs to exert all of his effort into stopping, then proceeds to spend a few hundred years over the space of six seconds research the perfect way to stop it.

Which is why I maintain, still, that D&D is a poor choice for a horror genre game.

[Arcanist]

You may not be aware of this, but Pandorym Unified has no stat block.


The easiest is the infinite damage trick, because damage works on everything.

I'm reading this and thinking of the whole "How do you kill that which has no life?" :smallconfused:

[Black Cross]

I'm reading this and thinking of the whole "How do you kill that which has no life?" :smallconfused:

This guy, right here.

EDIT:


Abusing Circle Magic to Banish it (using arcane rather than divine) simply removes it out of the Prime. It doesn't solve the problem, but it at least removes the threat.

Also, you seem to have missed the "With the seal of binding sign in effect, spells that force an extraplanar creature away do not affect Pandorym. However, a gate spell cast on it has a 5% chance of sending it back to its transdimensional prison (nothing happens otherwise)," part of my earlier entry. It says nothing about divine spells, just spells that force extraplanar creatures away.

[Lord_Gareth]

I'm reading this and thinking of the whole "How do you kill that which has no life?" :smallconfused:

Well, you could make it live first. Or you can just strip away the bit that permits it to exist.

Black Cross, you're running into the general problem here that Wizards are overpowered. This is an acknowledged part of D&D 3.5. Fixing it has been the genesis of entirely new systems of gameplay - mere houserules will not work. I'd take Shneekey's advice and find another avenue of getting what you want out of this creature.

Or just run White Wolf, which also works.

[Black Cross]

Well, you could make it live first. Or you can just strip away the bit that permits it to exist.

Black Cross, you're running into the general problem here that Wizards are overpowered. This is an acknowledged part of D&D 3.5. Fixing it has been the genesis of entirely new systems of gameplay - mere houserules will not work. I'd take Shneekey's advice and find another avenue of getting what you want out of this creature.

Or just run White Wolf, which also works.

Thank you for the input, however I'm not house-ruling. These are all printed. Pandorym's Mind Shard is a printed creature that exists in the official WotC book Elder Evils. Everything concerning the discussion over metagaming is just logical thought progression.

As for White Wolf, I already play Exalted. I've looked at/done some of their other stuff. It's good material, and excellent for horror campaigns. However, the bad part about PC cheese is that anything you can do, the DM can do better (especially if he's a long time optimizer). I could've just made the BBEG some amped up Tier 1, but that's too cheap.

Outside of all this, I've gotten what I want out of Pandorym multiple times. He's one of my favorite End Game encounters. Why? Because he's good at eating even optimized Tier 1s. I also make it a point never to run him with the same group twice. They catch on that way. :P

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm reading this and thinking of the whole "How do you kill that which has no life?" :smallconfused:

By causing it to cease to exist. Collapsing the dimension it is currently inhabiting, Sphere of Annihilation, certain obscure things like 'putting it in a bag of holding, then destroy said bag of holding'.

After all, if it has no life, then it must by default (D&D 3.5 rules-wise) to an Object, so Shrink Object works on it. Drop it in a Bag of Holding. Destroy said bag of holding. It now ceases to be. It is gone. Finished. Deceased. This! Is an EX! ELDER EVIL!

Also, technically, having no life means they are Dead, so they can't affect anyone anyways.

[Black Cross]

By causing it to cease to exist. Collapsing the dimension it is currently inhabiting, Sphere of Annihilation, certain obscure things like 'putting it in a bag of holding, then destroy said bag of holding'.

After all, if it has no life, then it must by default (D&D 3.5 rules-wise) to an Object, so Shrink Object works on it. Drop it in a Bag of Holding. Destroy said bag of holding. It now ceases to be. It is gone. Finished. Deceased. This! Is an EX! ELDER EVIL!

Also, technically, having no life means they are Dead, so they can't affect anyone anyways.

Supposition is most unbecoming of you, good sir. Also, I think it might be a good idea for me to just burn the cup of straws before you hurt yourself grasping for them.

On that note, I concede the argument as I have neither the patience nor the inclination to indulge you further.

[dascarletm]

Also, technically, having no life means they are Dead, so they can't affect anyone anyways.

tell that to zombies. :smalltongue:

[Sith_Happens]

Pandorym's mind is pretty much in the dark when it comes to knowing precisely where it is, and it only has ONE goal: the complete destruction of this "universe".

Actually, Pandorym's goal is merely the obliteration of the gods and any decendents of the wizards that trapped it. Destroying the multiverse itself is what happens when it finds out it can't get home afterwards and throws a tantrum.

Incidentally, this means that a wizard can defeat a unified Pandorym, provided that by "defeat" you only mean "prevent from destoying the world." All it takes is to
1. Sit back and let Pandorym kill all the gods. This is probably a sticking point for most characters, but as written there's exactly nothing they can do about it anyways so they'll just have to deal...:smalltongue:
2. Whip up an epic spell that somehow allows travel to Pandorym's home-reality despite the effects of its sign.

------------

Now, to get back on topic... Could someone explain what exactly the topic is? That's kind of part of the problem.

[TuggyNE]

Now, to get back on topic... Could someone explain what exactly the topic is? That's kind of part of the problem.

The OP has long since been fully addressed; we're just maundering on with random tangents now. Business as usual on a forum?

[Black Cross]

More or less. Also, you are correct, Sith. I misspoke. In any event, at this juncture, the OP and myself are simply waiting for our fellow group member to finish making his new race so the OP can post it up here.