Arcane Options for A Mid-Tier Party?

[Palanan]

I have a prospective player who's not sure what class he'd like to play, and he's leaning towards wizard.

But so far I've enjoyed running a small, mid-tier party with a martial bent, and I'd like to suggest some arcane options which are less wizard-like and more suitable for the campaign as it stands.

Apart from beguiler and duskblade, is there anything else that would provide some decent arcane support without overshadowing the rest of the group? The player doesn't have any clear idea of what he wants, and right now I'm just looking for some options to consider.

[eggs]

Bard, Dread Necromancer and Warmage fit (and there's a ton of homebrew for DN/Warmage/Beguiler-like classes for other specializations).

Shadowcaster, Dragonfire Adept and Warlock aren't technically arcane casters, but they aren't far from the concept.

[Diovid]

Dread Necromander, Bard, Factotum, Warlock, Warmage, Hexblade and Spellthief are all arcane(ish) classes that are tier 3 or tier 4.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by eggs
...and there's a ton of homebrew for DN/Warmage/Beguiler-like classes for other specializations....

Ordinarily I steer well clear of homebrew, but I really like the idea of beguiler-style arcane specialization. Is there any good homebrew along those lines you'd recommend?



EDIT: I assume the Dread Necromander looks something like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Andrias_davidianus_01.JPG)?

:smalltongue:
.

[hex0]

Trickster Spellthief variant is pretty solid.

[Palanan]

Thanks for the mention...but alas, a spellthief might have trouble in this particular campaign; not enough handy spellcasters to borrow from.

Part of the broader issue is that the player has no real character concept--which, I'm discovering, really irks me. I dislike filling party roles as such, and would rather let people run with their own ideas, but the player seems more interested in doing "whatever the party needs."

Right now I'm tempted to nudge him towards a duskblade. He mentioned he wanted to do something TWF, so maybe that would work on a duskblade chassis?

[Spuddles]

Twf and duskblade won't work out very well. Duskblade is actually a blaster; I wouldn't consider it arcane support in the traditional way.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

TWF arcane caster? Lightning Warrior, since it sacrifices so much power for flavor it should fit right in with a mid-tier party....


Maybe Mystic Ranger with Magical Training (Wizard) and Sword of the Arcane Order. He'll get access to a given spell level at the same level a Sorcerer would up to 5th level spells, and he can add any spells he finds to his spellbook.

Mystic Ranger loses proficiency in melee martial weapons, but give him Claws of the Beast (MIC) if starting high enough level and he should be hooked on getting the rest of the set. Otherwise an Elf race will give him some standard martial swords, probably Snow Elf from Frostburn since he'll still need an Int 15 to use 5th level Wizard spells.


A TWF Bard could work out, if he gets the right feats/items, though he'll probably need flaws (which can be taken after 1st level as long as it's still during character creation). I'd get Melodic Casting, TWF, Versatile Performer, Weapon Finesse, Snowflake Wardance, replace the Suggestion music ability with Song of the Heart, maybe even Somatic Weaponry, and use Gloves of the Balanced Hand to gain ITWF. Cast Inspirational Boost and use a Badge of Valor to increase Inspire Courage, and pick up Words of Creation at 6th. For flaws, my first picks would be Loudmouth (-4 Diplomacy and Move Silently) and Arcane Performer (must make a Perform check DC 10 + spell level each time he casts a spell or it fails) from Dragon 324. Consider using Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) , and the Bardic Knack ACF in PH2 is pretty good.

[Wise Green Bean]

Bard with the sublime chord prestige class is basically heavily gimped sorcerer, along with most of the normal bard stuff too. I'd call it tier 3 still, or very very very low tier 2.

[ThiagoMartell]

TWF arcane caster? Lightning Warrior, since it sacrifices so much power for flavor it should fit right in with a mid-tier party....
I wouldn't do that, the loss of a familiar would be crippling!

[Jeff the Green]

Bard with the sublime chord prestige class is basically heavily gimped sorcerer, along with most of the normal bard stuff too. I'd call it tier 3 still, or very very very low tier 2.

Definitely tier-2.

You can also handily nerf sorcerer down to... well, probably still tier-2, but a much lower tier two by applying the battle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) ACF. Fewer spells known and per day in exchange for casting in light armor, a d8 hd, and medium BAB.

If you're willing to look at psionics, there's the wilder, which is generally agreed to be tier 3. Psychic Warrior is as well, but it's pretty much set as a gish rather than a general caster.

If he really wants to go TWF, he could go with a battle sorcerer 4/swordsage 1/jade phoenix mage 10/whatever 5. That sets him 1-2 full spell levels behind a wizard of his level, and desert wind plus Shadow Blade plays well with TWF (particularly if you fold the entire TWF feat line into a single feat). It's also nice for your predicament by having decent built-in fluff that he can use as a base for roleplaying.

Edit: What are your other players playing?

[Palanan]

Thanks for the further suggestions, and let me make a couple of comments here:


Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
TWF arcane caster? Lightning Warrior, since it sacrifices so much power for flavor it should fit right in with a mid-tier party....

Please, please be careful with references like this. It took me a while, after reading through some older threads, to realize that "Lightning Warrior" is a forum in-joke rather than an actual build option. It might be a classic for experienced hands, but I'm not nearly familiar enough with the community to know all the moves, and this one really threw me.



Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
Maybe Mystic Ranger with Magical Training (Wizard) and Sword of the Arcane Order. He'll get access to a given spell level at the same level a Sorcerer would up to 5th level spells, and he can add any spells he finds to his spellbook.

In fact, I absolutely luuuuuuurrv the Mystic Ranger, and I'd been wondering if SotAO would be appropriate here. I'll definitely look into this one, thanks.


Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
What are your other players playing?

Urf. If only I knew.

--I say this because just a few minutes ago, another of my players just bailed on a character concept that we've spent weeks working out. He'd been working on an arctic druid, which was I concept I loved...but he's effectively new to 3.5, and a full-fledged druid is a real handful for a new player, so he's decided to try something that doesn't require three reams of paper to run at the table. I can't really blame him for that.

I also have a rogue/swashbuckler, and a rather problematic elven fighter-archer. It's a strangely martial party, much different than I'd first envisioned it, and right now I'm trying to recalibrate the campaign for every new character choice that comes up. I've had a couple people work up characters and then disappear on me, so I'm a little burned out on new characters right now.

:smallfrown:
.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Please, please be careful with references like this. It took me a while, after reading through some older threads, to realize that "Lightning Warrior" is a forum in-joke rather than an actual build option. It might be a classic for experienced hands, but I'm not nearly familiar enough with the community to know all the moves, and this one really threw me.

I should have put a link on it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126747#6), though google is pretty quick to find it. This was just the perfect situation to make that joke.


In fact, I absolutely luuuuuuurrv the Mystic Ranger, and I'd been wondering if SotAO would be appropriate here. I'll definitely look into this one, thanks.

As long as you control which spells he gets, it should be fine. He'd only get up to 5th level spells anyway, so it really slows down later on.


Urf. If only I knew.

--I say this because just a few minutes ago, another of my players just bailed on a character concept that we've spent weeks working out. He'd been working on an arctic druid, which was I concept I loved...but he's effectively new to 3.5, and a full-fledged druid is a real handful for a new player, so he's decided to try something that doesn't require three reams of paper to run at the table. I can't really blame him for that.

I also have a rogue/swashbuckler, and a rather problematic elven fighter-archer. It's a strangely martial party, much different than I'd first envisioned it, and right now I'm trying to recalibrate the campaign for every new character choice that comes up. I've had a couple people work up characters and then disappear on me, so I'm a little burned out on new characters right now.

:smallfrown:
.

For a cold-themed Druid with less paperwork, check out Spirit Shaman. The Druid spell list has most of the best cold-based spells in the game, and Spirit Shaman should be considerably easier to use for a newer player.

[Draz74]

Sorcerer and Psion really aren't hard to nerf down to "mid-tier." All you have to do is avoid the overpowered spells/powers.

That being said, it sounds like your player really wants more of a gish-type. Since he wants to use TWF.

I'm no Pathfinder expert, but I hear that the Pathfinder Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) is like the Duskblade, but better. (Mostly in a "can do things besides just deal lots of damage" way.) You could check it out.

A well-built Bard can work, but you'll need to be pretty familiar with Bard optimization, which involves diving into LOTS of different sourcebooks.

On the other extreme, a Swordsage would be easy to make work mechanically (with TWF), but would require some pretty good re-fluffing skills before it truly feels like an "Arcane" class.

I suspect that your real best option is a multiclassed Gish build:

The classic Sorcadin (Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Sacred Exorcist 8) is very low Tier 2, and not too hard to deal with.
The classic Suel Arcanamach (Duskblade 3 / Hexblade* 3 / Suel Acanamach 4 / Abjurant Champion 5 / whatever 1 / Dragon Disciple 4) is a pretty well-rounded Tier 3. Its "real" class doesn't get going until Level 7, but until then, it's at least built on a Duskblade base, which you were thinking about using anyway.
Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) can be a good way to nerf a Wizard while making it more melee-friendly at the same time. Can also be used with Bard or (with a pinch of homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179198)) Duskblade. Not sure how TWF-friendly the last option is, though.
Hexblade can be made decent with proper application of PrCs, a la: Hexblade 5 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Crusader 1 / Jade Phoenix Mage 9.

* These Hexblade levels are mostly here for Charisma synergy and Full BAB. If you don't want the Hexblade's (semi-evil) flavor, feel free to replace these with 2 levels of Paladin and one level of Fighter or Warblade or whatever.


In fact, I absolutely luuuuuuurrv the Mystic Ranger, and I'd been wondering if SotAO would be appropriate here. I'll definitely look into this one, thanks.

Unless your party is playing at Level 10+, then Mystic SotAO Ranger is at least as powerful as a Wizard, with just as much difficulty for new players. I'd steer clear of this one if you're worried about the player hogging the spotlight.

[Doxkid]

A Bard, dragon shaman or Warlock.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Draz
Unless your party is playing at Level 10+, then Mystic SotAO Ranger is at least as powerful as a Wizard, with just as much difficulty for new players. I'd steer clear of this one if you're worried about the player hogging the spotlight.

Interesting, thanks. I hadn't realized the Mystic/SotAO ranger was quite that boss...I'd figured that the lack of good melee options, plus the fact that I control what arcane spells he receives, would keep him tamped down. But hey, I'm here to learn. :smalltongue:

Also, if I didn't mention it before, the party is just starting fifth level.

...and, I really do like duskblade, but I'm struggling within myself to keep from nudging anyone too hard in this direction. Sorcadin could also be interesting, but unless we go with something like a paladin of freedom, there will be all the standard paladin issues to deal with.


Originally Posted by Doxkid
...dragon shaman...

I thought about this one, too, although I find it somewhere between "oddly cool" and "hilariously weird." I ran one as an underboss in my last campaign, and he was...very badly calibrated on my part, so in melee he nearly murdered the party and was strangely ineffective otherwise.

I'm honestly not sure what I'd do with one as a PC, which I guess is a vote in its favor.

:smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

IMO a support wizard who doesn't try to break the game is fine. Especially with a lot of martial characters spells like haste and greater magic weapon are excellent and isn't merely playing dumb to be nice to others.

But okay I'll bite. A bard with pretty much the same spells. If any party members need a flanker, put ranks in tumble too. Can combine with all the other bard suggestions so far.

[Analytica]

He'd been working on an arctic druid, which was I concept I loved...but he's effectively new to 3.5, and a full-fledged druid is a real handful for a new player, so he's decided to try something that doesn't require three reams of paper to run at the table. I can't really blame him for that.

Wait, you allow druids but not wizards, in order to maintain a mid-tier party? :smalleek: I do not know about your players, but if I wanted to play a wizard, settled for a bard or something due to campaign style, then found out someone else got to play a druid, I would feel cheated. Maybe that is just me though.

[Draz74]

Wait, you allow druids but not wizards, in order to maintain a mid-tier party? :smalleek: I do not know about your players, but if I wanted to play a wizard, settled for a bard or something due to campaign style, then found out someone else got to play a druid, I would feel cheated. Maybe that is just me though.

No, not just you; that's a good point.

[Tvtyrant]

I would say... Font of Inspiration/UMD Factotum? It gets to cherry pick off the wizard's list, and can give itself extra actions to cast in. Have that UMD some magic items and you have a viable multicaster.