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Doc_Pippin
2012-09-27, 04:28 PM
So one of my players who is a Halfling Rogue brought up a difficult to handle hurtle to realism in the game. During a huge fight He performed very well, while playing completely in character and without power gaming. (An Orc barbarian tried to grapple him but he had readied an action to throw his bandoleer of Alchemist's Fires and Acids 12 in all on his own square when the Orc entered it, and so much more Halfling highjinks) Anyway as a reward for his and the rest of the group's great session I decided to dish out a little extra loot. One in particular was a Ring of Lockpicking. It was found on the severed hand of one of the Orcs. I expected the Halfling to be really excited because he always had difficulty picking locks effectively and mostly had to have the wizard knock things. But when the loot was being divided he said flat out that the ring wouldn't/shouldn't fit. The Finger size of the Orc would be far to large for a halfling's. even the Orc's pinky would be thicker than the Halfling's thumb.

It raised the question could a craftsmen or even a PC with enough ranks in the correct craft resize magical rings, hem in cloaks, shirts, and the like, and even recycle boots and keep thier magical properties. Or would the act of cutting out part of the object constitute destroying it's magical properties.

Zanatos777
2012-09-27, 04:31 PM
Magic items like rings automatically resize.

Deathkeeper
2012-09-27, 04:35 PM
I'm almost positive that this is permitted to a degree. One size difference is usually acceptable from what I've seen.

Gamer Girl
2012-09-27, 04:36 PM
In most editions of D&D, magic items automatically re-size to fit any wearer. You would need a really Hard Old School game for there to be no re-sizing.


It's just one of the Game Things, like everyone speaks Common.

Belril Duskwalk
2012-09-27, 05:01 PM
In most editions of D&D, magic items automatically re-size to fit any wearer. You would need a really Hard Old School game for there to be no re-sizing.


It's just one of the Game Things, like everyone speaks Common.

2nd edition had a whole chart for the chances that a suit of magical armor would fit a character of a different race than it was designed for. I don't think details were ever given on rings, I always assumed they were auto-resizing. If it's good enough for Tolkein it's good enough for me. In 2nd, Boots and cloaks I would kick into a similar camp as armor, perhaps with a favorable boost because cloth is more forgiving than metal.

3.5 and onward? guess I'm not as familiar with the armor size-matching rules there.

Doc_Pippin
2012-09-27, 05:04 PM
Magic items like rings automatically resize.

Not to disreguard your statement but I tried using that as a statement and all of my players nearly exploded, "Armor and weapons don't also resize excetre egnosium, blah blah, Even the weapon property sizing is a testiment to the need for appropriately sized gear. It really strains believablity to think every ring, boot, shirt, and cloak auto sizes to its new owners. More to the direct campaign you would think that it would have to be some certain additive to allow that property and any egotistical megalomaniac would never add that to his creations because he just knows he cant be beaten and that no one will ever be able to take his gear

Very Powerful Items like the One Ring would be large and by exceptions because they are so incredibly powerful that resizing would be the smallest of its powers but I don't think every ring should auto size.

If a very low level ring were to be found and the party new it was made of a metal that could be worth more than the enchanted ring's worth what would stop an huge+character from taking and smelting the ring. It auto sized to him when he took it so how its 3-4 times its normal size and therefore 3-4 times as much vaulable material in the ring. That makes all precious metals worthless because any level of enchantment can then stretch and essensially just create these precious metals

Rainbownaga
2012-09-27, 05:16 PM
Not to disreguard your statement but I tried using that as a statement and all of my players nearly exploded, "Armor and weapons don't also resize excetre egnosium, blah blah, Even the weapon property sizing is a testiment to the need for appropriately sized gear. It really strains believablity to think every ring, boot, shirt, and cloak auto sizes to its new owners. More to the direct campaign you would think that it would have to be some certain additive to allow that property and any egotistical megalomaniac would never add that to his creations because he just knows he cant be beaten and that no one will ever be able to take his gear

What happens if he gets fat? Gets a magical graft? Use alter self? Is reincarnated as another race? Ascends to demonhood?

A magic item is a big investment and it would suck to have to take off your +3 ring of awesome just because you have swollen fingers.

Doc_Pippin
2012-09-27, 05:17 PM
I'm almost positive that this is permitted to a degree. One size difference is usually acceptable from what I've seen.

I can seen somewhat of a transfer here but I think that it would be more drastic I mean even between humans a female ring size of 7 would never in their wildest dreams go on a man's size 11 finger

I think a tiny character could mostlikely use a large or huge sized ring for a braclet and and any larger as a really heavy belt. but a alfling would be sized like a child for rings size 4 estimate the average human male has size 10 and Large beefy men ( used for Orc example) would were approximately 15-16 ring size. So a child's size 4 and an Orc's size 15 would never really fit it would slide off as soon as it was put on


What happens if he gets fat? Gets a magical graft? Use alter self? Is reincarnated as another race? Ascends to demonhood?

A magic item is a big investment and it would suck to have to take off your +3 ring of awesome just because you have swollen fingers.

As true as that may be for some BBEGs Im just even thinking of a normal mind set. Not from a gamer's perspective buying a ring today is a huge investment with the same restraint on sizing issues (minus the magical ones) but people still but 10,000 dollar rings because they can. When buying a ring one doesn't plan of getting fat, dieing and being brought back as a new creature, grafting limbs onto ones body, or completely changing species. Only people who plan to do those things in the end ever would and a vast majority of people will never see ort plan that far ahead. That leads to the same question though could someone resize a magical ring if one of these things happened and suddenly the ring is worthless until fixed

I would think a low level spell with the material component of whatever the ring was made of could be added to the world to fix the problem of going up in size but what would one need to go down sizes not more metal but... how to resize the fing without giving the player the excess metals so as to stop the normal use of using that spell to harvest metals from ores

Jeraa
2012-09-27, 05:34 PM
THe DMG (3.5, page 213) has this to say:


When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.

Armor and weapons don't resize, but jewelry does.

Doc_Pippin
2012-09-27, 05:40 PM
THe DMG (3.5, page 213) has this to say:



Armor and weapons don't resize, but jewelry does.


I understand that the DMG states this, but Thats why I brought the issue to the Playground. If we want to use RAW for everything than every campaign will end at level 1 when i flood the universe with chickens from my level 1 commoner. We Homebrew the world and house rule things to add more intelligent facets to the game. As I explained above the magical resizing rule seems terrible IMO so I would like to see what the other Playgrounders thought on the topic of resizing rings

A Magical Vest made for Halflings should not ever Fit a Mountain giant why should their rings?

BootStrapTommy
2012-09-27, 05:48 PM
Seriously, dude? Seriously? You're the DM. You could have just said "the ring resizes itself for the wearer". It's already a magic ring, so not likes its stretch. And if you don't want that to effect the price, you ARE the DM.

Or just tell him to stop being a buzz-killing little prick and wear the damn ring!!!

Dr Bwaa
2012-09-27, 05:54 PM
That makes all precious metals worthless because any level of enchantment can then stretch and essensially just create these precious metals

To be fair, this is pretty much already the case. Don't think too hard about the economy of D&D; you'll break your brain (chickens, tippytraps, there's no limit to the reasons normal economics don't function). Besides, this particular use probably wouldn't work--resizing jewelry (as RAW) presumably uses an effect similar to the one bestowed on your equipment by Enlarge Person and the like--when you take it off, or perhaps when it ceases to be enchanted (ie you melt it down), it returns to its "normal" size, so you can't abuse it for infinite gold.


A Magical Vest made for Halflings should not ever Fit a Mountain giant why should their rings?

Honestly it seems like your mind is already made up, so I'm a bit unclear why you're even asking. Did you only want our opinion on non-magical, craft-check resizing of jewelry/etc? If that's the case, and you're dead-set against magically-resizing jewelry, I don't really see what choice you have but to allow a craft check to resize magic items. Honestly I'd probably allow it anyway, unless you desperately want to keep tabs on the size of the appendages of the enemies you throw at the party.

Or just retcon the whole thing to say he was wearing it as a toe ring (because the vast majority of rings in the world are now going to be much too small for Orc fingers, right?).

BootStrapTommy
2012-09-27, 06:07 PM
"Armor and weapons don't also resize excetre egnosium, blah blah, Even the weapon property sizing is a testiment to the need for appropriately sized gear. It really strains believablity to think every ring, boot, shirt, and cloak auto sizes to its new owners. More to the direct campaign you would think that it would have to be some certain additive to allow that property and any egotistical megalomaniac would never add that to his creations because he just knows he cant be beaten and that no one will ever be able to take his gear"

>Fantasy role-playing setting that includes elves, dwarves, dragons, demons, multiply planes and dieties and MAGIC.
>Players have a hard time believing that common items with magical properties resize to fit them.

I think it's safe to say you need to get a new play group. Because there's something wrong with them. Willful suspension of disbelief is key to fantasy. Without you just sound like a fool talking about how absurd it is that the sky is blue.

JellyPooga
2012-09-27, 06:11 PM
First off, I would like to applaud you and your group for sticking to your guns on this one! If that's the way you guys want to play it, go for it. I'd hesitate to speak for others, but I'm fairly sure that most people glaze over details like this with the whole "magical resizing" thing or by not even considering it. That you want to put this detail in is, as I say, laudable.

As for a ruling on adjusting magical items, if it were my game I'd probably allow anyone with the requisite Item Creation feat to perform the job for a nominal fee of 1/10th of the items original cost, maybe. Dunno, that's just my gut instinct, so it's something I might reconsider if someone complained too hard about it. However, I'd also allow a certain amount of leeway with regards to using over- or undersized items...many people, for example, wear rings (such as wedding rings) on a pendant if their fingers swell (such as when they get older), so I might let a halfing wear a medium sized ring as an amulet instead and still get the magical benefit. Similarly, a medium sized cloak might be usable as a make-shift small robe with a few added sashes and pins or a small necklace could be wrapped around a medium sized forearm in place of a bracer.

Obviously if this kind of thing began to be misused, then I'd clamp down on it, but for one off cases like the one in the OP, then it might be an option.

Doc_Pippin
2012-09-27, 06:15 PM
{Scrubbed}

BootStrapTommy
2012-09-27, 07:14 PM
{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Do you realize how absurd it is to question the realism of fantasy? It's fantasy. The very feature which makes it fantasy is that it contains the absurd. If people can fly by challenging a "mysterious energy" into their body and lifting themselves off the ground, the stretch to the fact that all rings resize for the wearer is not that much farther. In fact, that's almost less of a stretch. Why get caught up on that when that might only serve to create problems?

The very key to fantasy is the willful suspension of disbelief. It's full of the absurd and of things that are not real and could never happen. For it to work with a rational mind, a rational mind must leave it presumptions at the door and suspend disbelief which arises from the encounter with the absurd. Fantasy is crazy, and for it to entertain, you must accept that it is. It is fantasy after all.

Fantasy is the UNREAL. So there is a measure of absurdity in trying to apply the REAL to the UNREAL. This is, admittedly, something most people tend to do however. Very simply there is no huge problem with what your friends are doing, but they should expect to run into problems if they do so, and they should expect that at a point they just have to swallow their rationalism and accept the fantasy as it is, absurd.

It's futile to try and apply realism to every aspect of fantasy.

Deathkeeper
2012-09-27, 07:17 PM
{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

It's also common that something that IS, in fact, magical can be explained as being magical.
And my groups were perfectly intelligent and we ran on the universal jewelry rule and had magical items all the time, so the two qualities of a group are not mutually exclusive.

hobbitkniver
2012-09-27, 07:23 PM
It's futile to try and apply realism to every aspect of fantasy.

Exactly, the game already contains things that don't exist in real life like magic and monsters. I don't see the purpose in nitpicking the size of fingers since it just takes away the fun of the game.

JellyPooga
2012-09-27, 08:15 PM
...it just takes away the fun of the game.

For you and others who've posted here, maybe, but do not presume that the same set of ideals applies to everyone. Fun for some is imagining that a magical ring doesn't resize to fit whoever wears it. Fun for these people is overcoming or compensating for the fact that they've got a powerful artefact that, right at this minute, they cannot use.

The point is not that magical rings cannot resize in any given fantasy, but rather that they don't resize in this particular fantasy. I don't think anyone would argue that because magic exists that the potential for resizing can't exist, just as it's absurd to argue that because magic exists that resizing must exist.

Rainbownaga
2012-09-27, 09:54 PM
There is already a precident for re-sizing things manually.in 3.5: full plate armor.

Boots would be the.worst for this. What are the chances that the drow you just killed has your boot size? And what is the penalty for badly sized boots? In an evil campaign you could kill creatures deliberately for their footwear, but its a little tacky. And how would you resize boots anyway?

Addit: discussions about 'its magic, deal with it' never seem particularly helpful.

tyckspoon
2012-09-27, 10:05 PM
And how would you resize boots anyway?


Depends on what dimension of it is mis-sized.. and a bit on how durable/resistant to change you think a particular magic material is, I guess. If it's just width, you can stitch in new material or just stretch it out a bit.. Leather is pretty flexible, and you can reshape it fairly permanently if you can soak it and then let it dry around a form of the new shape it needs to be (preferably not the intended wearer's actual foot, because that's just begging for Fort saves against interesting diseases and skin conditions.) If the foot length is wrong, that's a bigger problem.. I suppose you could cut the toe/heel section out and either just leave it open or put an extended one on, possibly with a Spellcraft/relevant Know/Craft check to ensure that the modifications you make don't interfere with the magic.

Doc_Pippin
2012-09-27, 10:29 PM
{Scrubbed}

TuggyNE
2012-09-27, 10:47 PM
{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I'm fairly sure this has little to do with occupation; I'm a computer programmer, and I personally have no problem with most magic items resizing on their own. It's just not worth it to me to figure out a more detailed explanation for how and when and why they resize; I'd prefer to just get on with it already.

Mind you, it's not even that I love unrealistic fantasy either: I enjoy pondering how a science could be constructed from the energy flows that cause what uneducated commoners call "magic", for example.

In the case of magic items resizing, though, the whole process of creating them is too abstract (in my opinion) for it to be worthwhile to detail one particular aspect so much more thoroughly, and there's not necessarily a whole lot of obviously interesting things that that would affect: all it would mean is some PCs semi-randomly don't get to use some loot. What does it add? What intriguing implications does it have? I have trouble thinking of any.

If you can, good for you; if you can't avoid trying to figure out every last nitpicky little bit, I feel for you.

OK, maybe I was wrong at the beginning; perhaps my occupation does have something to do with this, in being able to cleanly cut off my inquisitiveness once it reaches far enough down into abstractions. I dunno. (It's a useful skill, and I recommend it.)

TL/DR: It doesn't make perfect sense, but nothing does, and this arguably makes "enough" sense for many people to just accept it and go on.

Doc_Pippin
2012-09-27, 10:54 PM
I'm fairly sure this has little to do with occupation; I'm a computer programmer, and I personally have no problem with most magic items resizing on their own. It's just not worth it to me to figure out a more detailed explanation for how and when and why they resize; I'd prefer to just get on with it already.

Mind you, it's not even that I love unrealistic fantasy either: I enjoy pondering how a science could be constructed from the energy flows that cause what uneducated commoners call "magic", for example.

In the case of magic items resizing, though, the whole process of creating them is too abstract (in my opinion) for it to be worthwhile to detail one particular aspect so much more thoroughly, and there's not necessarily a whole lot of obviously interesting things that that would affect: all it would mean is some PCs semi-randomly don't get to use some loot. What does it add? What intriguing implications does it have? I have trouble thinking of any.

If you can, good for you; if you can't avoid trying to figure out every last nitpicky little bit, I feel for you.

OK, maybe I was wrong at the beginning; perhaps my occupation does have something to do with this, in being able to cleanly cut off my inquisitiveness once it reaches far enough down into abstractions. I dunno. (It's a useful skill, and I recommend it.)

TL/DR: It doesn't make perfect sense, but nothing does, and this arguably makes "enough" sense for many people to just accept it and go on.

And See "Person who shall still remain nameless" this is a great statement for having the auto resize. And I appreciate having both a for and against

Deathkeeper
2012-09-27, 11:23 PM
I'm an engineer (almost) and I don't have a problem with it either. And it isn't really nice to consistently insinuate that people who don't agree with you are lacking in intelligence or are childish in any way. D&D does not support realism in most cases; there are a multitude of topics explaining how standard physics, chemical properties, and economics simply don't work when applied to a game, especially this one. Bottom line, there are already a number of physics errors, and the DM not writing a manifesto on how magic works is not going to make it any worse or create any more. If your players are all hitched up to have a mostly realistic but still somehow magic fantasy adventure, that's fine. But please don't tell people that they are somehow lacking common sense by wanting to keep things simple and, well, magic.

NotScaryBats
2012-09-27, 11:57 PM
The fact that the DMG explicitly has RAW for this instance is enough for me.

DMG - 'Rings auto resize, size should not be an issue'

ME - 'I never even bothered to consider that, but okay'

Kol Korran
2012-09-28, 01:13 AM
I would sidestep the whole question of should things resize automatically or not. This is the OPs' game, this is the way the players like it. Lets try to answer the actual question, shall we?



It raised the question could a craftsmen or even a PC with enough ranks in the correct craft resize magical rings, hem in cloaks, shirts, and the like, and even recycle boots and keep thier magical properties. Or would the act of cutting out part of the object constitute destroying it's magical properties.

I would argue that anyone that can make the ring/ boots/ other article that depends on size could reasonably change the size to fit other characters. So i'd say you need the item creation feat to do so. How much should this cost? not sure, but I'd hazard it's not too much... up to 1/20- 1/10 of the original price? I think that would be a fair exchange. for being able to now using the desired item.

Or you can make a low level spell (0-1st level I'll assume) that can be used for this purpose that characters might take in a wand- instant duration, changes one size category or such? an investment in such a wand could be a wise thing.

I hope this helps.

willpell
2012-09-28, 01:22 AM
Even the weapon property sizing is a testiment to the need for appropriately sized gear.

The sizing property allows an item to fit an entirely different category. It's the difference between armor for a human and armor for a giant or a pixie; if the change in size is not at least 100% or so, you don't need the property.

If auto-resizing bothers you from a suspension-of-disbelief perspective, you could get rid of it; if you custom-pick treasures for your players, just don't give them any inappropriately-sized items unless they're intended only as saleable / tradeable money. (If you roll items instead, it's more acceptible for them to get some things that aren't right, though you should definitely check your dice if it becomes too consistent a pattern.) Anything that you want them to use should be right-sized, or else you're just playing keep-away: "Look, this treasure is perfect for you OH NO IT SNOT HAHA TROLLED".

Letting everything resize is just a way to help your players have fun; if it's not working then change it, but don't get too hung up on making your game realistic UNLESS your crowd wants it that way. Entertaining your players is more important than creating some dramatic masterpiece with your flavor text; save the so-realistic-it-leaps-off-the-page writing for an actual page (whether book or web), not a table which has players who don't want to be randomly disappointed.

Krazzman
2012-09-28, 02:36 AM
Ok, I read not every line that was written here but I got the point that RAW is not really in question.

If you still use the rule that armor and such things need to be made +1 first before any special abilities then say that the sizing for jewelery and boots and such is of the same use as the +1 for weapons and armors. As such every magic ring IS made with the ability to resize to its new owner. The same goes for necklaces, shirts, shorts, cloaks, boots etc.

This is at least a sane way to give your player the benefits of the ring along with a still quite stupid but reasonable explanation.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

Ashtagon
2012-09-28, 04:04 AM
Not to disreguard your statement but I tried using that as a statement and all of my players nearly exploded, "Armor and weapons don't also resize excetre egnosium, blah blah, Even the weapon property sizing is a testiment to the need for appropriately sized gear. It really strains believablity to think every ring, boot, shirt, and cloak auto sizes to its new owners. More to the direct campaign you would think that it would have to be some certain additive to allow that property and any egotistical megalomaniac would never add that to his creations because he just knows he cant be beaten and that no one will ever be able to take his gear

Very Powerful Items like the One Ring would be large and by exceptions because they are so incredibly powerful that resizing would be the smallest of its powers but I don't think every ring should auto size.

If a very low level ring were to be found and the party new it was made of a metal that could be worth more than the enchanted ring's worth what would stop an huge+character from taking and smelting the ring. It auto sized to him when he took it so how its 3-4 times its normal size and therefore 3-4 times as much vaulable material in the ring. That makes all precious metals worthless because any level of enchantment can then stretch and essensially just create these precious metals

The correct response to the player is, "Well, this one resized itself to you when you picked it up. Fancy that! I wonder what other magical properties it has?"

Magic items should be things of wonder, not numbers on a spreadsheet.

Incorrect
2012-09-28, 04:30 AM
I would argue that anyone that can make the ring/ boots/ other article that depends on size could reasonably change the size to fit other characters. So i'd say you need the item creation feat to do so. How much should this cost? not sure, but I'd hazard it's not too much... up to 1/20- 1/10 of the original price? I think that would be a fair exchange. for being able to now using the desired item.

Or you can make a low level spell (0-1st level I'll assume) that can be used for this purpose that characters might take in a wand- instant duration, changes one size category or such? an investment in such a wand could be a wise thing.

I hope this helps.

This was my exact thoughts :smalltongue:
It even brings a bit of nice fluff into the world.
I would say either 1/20 of the price to have a craftsman change the size.
Or make a level 1, duration: instantaneous, spell that changes the size of magical items.

Belril Duskwalk
2012-09-28, 05:50 AM
I would think a low level spell with the material component of whatever the ring was made of could be added to the world to fix the problem of going up in size but what would one need to go down sizes not more metal but... how to resize the fing without giving the player the excess metals so as to stop the normal use of using that spell to harvest metals from ores

I like this idea...
Second level spell, Resize Item- Material component is whatever the magic item you have is made of. Amount needed scales by the amount of alteration. One size category up needs a little material, two needs a bit more, etc. Make sure the amount needed for the spell is more than you would need to physically get the job done. When you scale the item down, you get no materials back. Say that the magic consumes the material as a fuel source for the process of shrinking the item.

nedz
2012-09-28, 06:13 AM
If I am reading the OP correctly, the problem is that the RAW about rings resizing breaks their verisimilitude.

Now you could just stick to RAW, but that is likely to be unsatisfactory.

You could try some fudge: The halfling wears it on his thumb, The Orc had it on his little finger, The halfling wears it or on a Hand of Glory, ... or some such idea. But this might be seen as the fudge that it is.

I think it might be best to go with the players sense of how this works.
Verisimilitude is possibly more important then the rules, certainly in this case.

What would be the consequences ?
The Halfling doesn't get a bonus to some skill, instead he gets a share of the market value when they sell it. This might actually be preferable to the player since it gives the player agency.

In my experience parties routinely miss up to half the possible loot anyway, so I wouldn't worry about this too much.

Joe the Rat
2012-09-28, 08:38 AM
Going back to the original question:

It depends on how hard you want it to be to resize things. If you want it to be difficult and/or expensive, have it require the appropriate Craft Item feat. Beyond or beside that, set a DC to whatever level of impossibility you're comfortable with. Maybe it's an easy job (15) if you have the right Feat, but a bit tricky (25?) otherwise.

Having a spell that shifts an item by one size category (Somewhere between Shrink Item and Alter Self in terms of effect, except permanent) would be a simple solution - and one that could legitimately be applied to anything else that needs resized. This would give you a way to rescale that fire giant's flaming sword into something a bit easier for your barbarian to use. For something of this magnitude, a lvl 2/3 spell is probably in order.

Being a bit nicer, if you allow for the magic to be retained, you could probably use a variation of Mending to make magic clothes & jewelry rescale. Tailoring as 0-level, or a higher level version that specifically works for magic items.

Personally, I prefer using accommodation.
(That, or imply a Tolkien Sequel Retcon: Tell him that it magically shrinks overnight, almost as if it wants to be worn, and chuckle with sinister undertones.)

Doc_Pippin
2012-09-28, 09:41 AM
I like the spell addition and the craft abilities these are all great ideas for solving these problems. But I think I like Joe the Rat's version of re-fluffing mending to activate a believable auto-size the best. It easily fixes the all rings are made EXACTLY the same way so they ALL AUTO SIZE problem without forcing the players to take an Obscure homebrew spell with no other practical applications. I think it will work beautifully for my group thank you.

Mafic
2012-09-28, 09:55 AM
To the OP:

I think this is being way overthunk(?). Why not just say that the ring was initially intended for a smaller medium creature and that the Orc wore it on his pinky. The halfling could wear the ring on his thumb, or if he really wants perhaps his big toe. I don't believe there is anything stating which digits a ring must be on.

Doug Lampert
2012-09-28, 10:37 AM
The sizing property allows an item to fit an entirely different category. It's the difference between armor for a human and armor for a giant or a pixie; if the change in size is not at least 100% or so, you don't need the property.

Yep, TRY putting someone who's 4'1" and someone else who's 7'11" in the same suit of half-plate. Yet in D&D land that NON-MAGICAL half-plate automatically fits them both, the only thing that ever gets resized within a single size category is full plate armor.

But that half plate made for someone 4'1" tall won't fit someone 3'11" tall. Yeah, right. In practical terms finding an item at random that fits you should be about a 5% chance even for characters of the same size class and a roughly 0.0% chance for other size classes unless you're right on the edge of your size class (in which case you maybe get 2% of small items and 3% of medium fitting).

This is a problem that has to be solved from level 1 on, the DMG solves it one way, you want a different way, but once you've opened this can of worms it should apply to approximately 100% of found items. So make sure your solution is simple and easy to implement.

Deepbluediver
2012-09-28, 11:23 AM
The obvious solution is to just have it resize automatically (as practically every other poster has mentioned) but I would have taken a different approach.

If I can't wear it as a ring, then find a jewelsmith to convert it into a fancy necklace, cloak pin, badge, etc. If I got the item from a Large creature I'd argue I should be allowed to wear it as a bracelet. This is a case of the player needing a little more imagination to work with the DM I think.

Elf: *sigh* I guess I'll take the ogre-mage's magic staff, maybe I can break it down for the magical components.
Gnome: And I want his enchanted cloak!
Elf: What?!? It's gonna drag behind you like the world's worst bridal train!
Gnome: Nah, I got a plan. Remember that village we saved from goblins a little while back?
Elf: Yeah....
Gnome: I bet I can convince the local tailor to restitch this into a wicked awesome suit!
Elf: But...what...that's not...you....Wait I sec! I want the magic cloak!
Gnome: Nah-ah-ah! I called dibs! Besides, your big enough I doubt you'd get more than a spiffy set of pants out of it!
Elf: *grumble mumble grumble*

theNater
2012-09-28, 12:28 PM
It easily fixes the all rings are made EXACTLY the same way so they ALL AUTO SIZE problem without forcing the players to take an Obscure homebrew spell with no other practical applications.
Why wouldn't all rings be made with this handy property? All magic rings are made through the Forge Ring feat, which suggests some standard baseline process. And with most spellcasters being mortal, it's reasonable to assume a magical ring will outlast the person for whom it was crafted. Making rings resize as a standard part of the design lets their owners pass it along to others with minimal fuss.

Zeful
2012-09-28, 02:12 PM
Well to bring up an alternate point of view: 90% of all gear shouldn't fit the PCs without some kind of alteration then. Hand and ring sizes, belt and inseam, shirt and shoe size, hat size; they only need just a little bit of variation to make it problematic to fit and wear. Suddenly none of the gear they gather from their enemies can be used, and what can be used are just assorted weapons, so they have to sell all of their loot at 1/2 price, run around to find a blacksmith/armorer to get them custom built gear, run to find various tailors and cobblers for other misc items, and then they need to find the various spellcasters they need to enchant all this stuff for them.

Congrats, the players have consented to do 4 times the work for not accepting a small inconsequential detail of the setting.

beforemath
2012-09-28, 03:57 PM
I agree that while things like this add flavor to the campaign, it can also add something that really sells your setting -- consistency. If the world your players live in have consistent rules and they can expect things to work the same way in every situation, then the setting just feels more real.

That being said, there are some mundane solutions to the problem at hand (:smallbiggrin:):

1. Wear the ring over a glove. Gloves add bulk to your finger. A gloved halfling thumb could believably be around the size of a bare orc ring finger.

2. Use a ring spacer or a ring guard (image search for ring spacer or for ring guard). They sell these in modern jewelry stores and they're simple devices. There's no reason they shouldn't exist in your world.

3. Have a jeweler craft a ring-chain-bracelet (image search for ring chain bracelet) device to basically tie the ring onto his finger. He could probably do this with twine before he gets to town and requests one.

4. Some combination of the above (e.g. glove + spacer).



(That being said, *I'm* a fan of any magic item resizing, with the understanding that enchanted items are worth more than their raw materials, broken magic items revert to their original sizes, and trying to sell a huge magic item that shrinks when the vendor grabs it will illicit a response of, "Hey! What are you trying to pull, here!?")

Jay R
2012-09-29, 10:20 AM
He's doing something cool with role-playing. Go with it, and improvise.

"After a little experimentation, you discover that you can wear it over a left glove while picking locks with your right hand. It's still a little big, but it's a small matter to sew it to the glove."

Knaight
2012-09-30, 01:40 PM
Congrats, the players have consented to do 4 times the work for not accepting a small inconsequential detail of the setting.

Which is even better given that changing the size of things is utterly trivial magic by D&D standards. The spells involved (Shrink Item, Enlarge Person, etc.) are largely low level, and given that having items shrink around you makes them much less prone to falling off by accident, and that they are absurdly expensive to begin with it should be downright standardized.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2012-10-01, 01:48 PM
The 4e Enchant Magic Item ritual lets you resize magic armor as one of its effects. I don't think it would be too difficult to come up with a new ritual or repurpose that ritual to make other magic items fit.

Arcane casters in most editions of D&D can already use low-level spells to double or halve the size of a creature. I see no reason why, in a world with Medium and Small races, there wouldn't be low-level spells for permanently resizing magic items.

That said, magic items are dispensed by the GM. It's ultimately up to the GM to decide how this is going to work.

nedz
2012-10-01, 02:59 PM
That said, magic items are dispensed by the GM. It's ultimately up to the GM to decide how this is going to work.

Unfortunately not, the DM (OP) has already stated that he was quite happy with the RAW about these things resizing; but the players over-rode him. Which is good, IMHO, since the rules should be negotiated by the group rather than imposed.

Kalirren
2012-10-06, 09:31 PM
If the player was concerned about sizing, then 'he should have cut off the orc's hand and called it a hand of glory.

Kyberwulf
2012-10-09, 04:43 AM
Could you imagine the problems that will stem from this.

DM:You all are walking down the dirt path for a couple hours. Okay, you have to make foritude saves.

Players: What for?

DM: You are aren't wearing Properly sized Shoes. So you have to make a Fortitued save versus Blisters. and Possibly Back problems.

Players: Back Problems?

DM: Yeah, those Magical Armor and Robes you picked up has made all your Backpacks and pouches not sit right on your backs. Thus thowing of the weight distribution.

Player: But I am wearing robes? How does that work?

DM: Oh, yeah those are robes, but they where sized for a woman.
Oh also, You have also noticed that you lost that magical dagger you found.

Players: What Why?

DM: Well, the belt you found to strap the dagger on, wasn't sized right. The Sheath turned upside down while you where walking, and it managed to slide out cause you didn't secure the dagger well enough.



Not only that, shopping ( which already Takes more then it should) will take even LONGER, cause what are the odds of finding something you like, in your size, in a world where everything has to be costum made. Because remember, D&D is a Midevel-esque setting. Mass producing various types of clothes is a more modern idea.

Having a spell that resizes your magical iteams is kinda pointless too. If you have that spell, why wouldn't you just cast a permant spell of that into the item in the first place. Espcially if your making items to sell to random people in the first place.

Radar
2012-10-09, 05:09 AM
If those orcs were realy burly, the halfling could always fit the ring on his big toe. Problem solved within given constrains.

Mistwing
2012-10-09, 06:02 AM
Really making that big a deal out of this? Either just handwave if or wear it in some alternative way. I've had gnomes folding cloaks to adjust the size or whatever

but on another note: You do know halflings arn't THAT goddamn small right? thumb smaller than an orcs pinky? how tall is this halfling? 5 inches? honestly, from what I've seen of arts and measurements, a halfling is about the same size as a gnome. Which is about 3 feet, roughly. So pretty much the size of a child. You really think they have fingers that small? Especialyl if we're trying to be realistic, in which case the bones of such thin limbs would have to be so thin that being any melee class would be a ludicrous idea.

Porportions damnit. If we're gonna be realistic >_>

Honestly though. Does it really need to be that big a deal? I know that realism is indeed a good thing (a world has to work on it's own grounds) but most people don't play D&D to hear about excotic market values.

But if you enjoy such details to that degree, then yes. I'd say the enchantment would remain as long as the ring remains intact. Just have any blacksmith adjust it for a minor fee in the next town. There. Not such a big deal, was it?

Toofey
2012-10-09, 09:39 AM
In most editions of D&D, magic items automatically re-size to fit any wearer. You would need a really Hard Old School game for there to be no re-sizing.


It's just one of the Game Things, like everyone speaks Common.

Nope, magic rings have always resized, even in ODAD, they probably do in 3.5 to, not sure though.

I would point out the classic Fantasy story (LOTR) very specifically has halflings using a ring made for a very large person.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-10-09, 10:12 AM
Next time one of your players nitpicks about his in-game rewards, hit him with a rolled-up newspaper.

QuidEst
2012-10-09, 12:37 PM
It's a human ring- the Orc wore it on his pinky, and the halfling wears it on his thumb. Or he puts it on with a bit of cloth on one side between the ring and his finger to keep it on properly. There are a few simple workarounds for putting on a ring that's too big. Too small is harder, of course.