JM's Fallacy: UMD = not weak

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I want to take a bit of time to provide a service to the community as a whole.

I've heard, frequently, 'but he's got UMD so he doesn't suck, he can just be a mini-wizard'.

This is a fallacy. I shall use the term 'JM's Fallacy', due to it's most infamous use in the 'Joker Monk'. I really don't want to bring up Old Baggage, so suffice to say, the majority of this build's power is cross-class ranks in UMD, followed by partially charged wands.

Succinctly stated thusly: Claiming that access to UMD increases an individual class's relative strength as compared to other classes is false because every class has access to UMD

Now then, here's why:

EVERY CLASS CAN UMD. Some do it better than others, and for these classes, it might be viable. Warlock and Artificer, for example, can Take 10 on UMD checks, which is unique, and a valid reason for citing it as a source of power. However, these are the exception, not the rule. And even then, a +10 Competence bonus to UMD check item is 10k, and functionally does the same thing.

So other than these two exceptions, citing UMD as a reason why a class doesn't suck is succumbing to this fallacy.

The only way UMD might affect the power of a class is if it were flat prohibited from it. That would be a downgrade in power. But since there are no classes in 3.5 like this in the game, it isn't an issue.

This is one of the main reasons why Vow of Poverty really isn't all that good after all. The bonuses you get are trivial to what you can get out of WBL appropriate gear.

DC of 20 is all you need to use wands. You can hit that fairly easily, even with cross-class ranks, as the Joker Monk threat pointed out. The only thing you'd really want a higher UMD for is something like 9th level scrolls for cheese purposes. Let's look at those numbers, shall we?

To use a 9th level scroll, first you will need to emulate an Int or Cha score of 19+, assuming you don't already have it. Since you are using UMD, your Cha score is probably at least pretty decent. But if it isn't at 19+, that's going to be a DC 34 check. Using the scroll itself is DC 37.

Now then, if you are making a cheese UMD build, you've got several options to twink out your UMD check, most of them are used by Truenamers to make the class able to use its sole mechanic even possible to be used. Blow a feat to make it a class skill, and you should have enough ranks to hit this consistently. If you want to do it earlier, Item Familiar, Competence Bonus items, and a Circlet of Persuasion can all help do this fairly easily.

A +20 to UMD item costs (20^2 = 400) * 100 = 40,000gp. A +10 is only 10k. Either of these will trivialize most UMD checks you ever need to make.

In short, please don't try to say 'well this class doesn't suck completely because it has UMD!', because when all is said and done, every class can get it. Some might have to jump through a hoop or spend a bit of WBL on it, but everyone can do it with minimal difficulty.

This message brought to you by the number 1337, and the letters O and P.

[Spuddles]

You conclusion is incorrect. UMD is awesome. All classes get it. Therefore, all classes are awesome.

[Alienist]

You conclusion is incorrect. UMD is awesome. All classes get it. Therefore, all classes are awesome.

Your conclusion is incorrect. If all classes are awesome, then the tier system is worthless. And around here, that would be blasphemy.

[kitcik]

Your conclusion is incorrect. If all classes are awesome, then the tier system is worthless. And around here, that would be blasphemy.

You are both only partially correct.

All classes (including commoner, as we have seen) are awesome.

Tier 1 classes are AWESOMER.:smallbiggrin:

[Tvtyrant]

I disagree with you Schneeky. The concept of 'suck' is generally tied not to the existence or lack of unique features, but the ability to contribute in a meaningful way to the party. A monk sucks because it cannot tank, cannot DPS, and isn't very good at lockdown. This means it usually sits there and slips at the enemy, while the other members of the party can kill the thing in 1,000 effective ways, and while the monk can avoid falling to its death they can fly, teleport, and see the future.

UMD allows any party member to contribute to the party in a meaningful way. The fact that anyone can buy magic items does not detract from this, for the same reason that everyone having gold pieces doesn't make them less valuable.

In essence I disagree with your definition of suck.

[eggs]

In the same vein as everybody being able to use WBL or other build resources to UMD efficiently, everybody is able to use WBL to UMD to Wizard efficiently. But whoever has to invest fewer resources has a material advantage.

In the case of something like Wizard v. Expert w/ items, it's a huge advantage. The Expert has to cough up tens of thousands of gp per day to even begin to keep up.

In the case of a Fighter using Crown of the White Raven-type items and Martial Scripts to play Warblade, it's a smaller advantage. The Fighter has to cough up a few thousand gp a day to match the Warblade's abilities.

In the case of a Ninja using a custom competence item to match the Rogue's UMD, it's smaller still. But it's still additional resources for the Rogue - maybe enough for Boots of Speed or a Belt of Battle or Wings of Flying Feathered Wings graft.

In any case, saving resources makes a build better. And having UMD in-class saves resources. Not a lot, but at low to mid-levels, it can be pretty meaningful.

[Water_Bear]

I disagree with you Schneeky. The concept of 'suck' is generally tied not to the existence or lack of unique features, but the ability to contribute in a meaningful way to the party. A monk sucks because it cannot tank, cannot DPS, and isn't very good at lockdown. This means it usually sits there and slips at the enemy, while the other members of the party can kill the thing in 1,000 effective ways, and while the monk can avoid falling to its death they can fly, teleport, and see the future.

UMD allows any party member to contribute to the party in a meaningful way. The fact that anyone can buy magic items does not detract from this, for the same reason that everyone having gold pieces doesn't make them less valuable.

In essence I disagree with your definition of suck.

The problem with that definition is that contributing through UMDing wands is something so simple that you could pay a low-level Expert hireling to follow you around and do nothing but UMD wands and you end up with the same result, except they only cost a gold piece or two a week as opposed to the Monk's full share of treasure. Heck, the party Sorcerer/Wizard could have their Familiar do it for free and it would be much much better than the Monk.

If all your class can really claim is that they have cross-class access to a skill which operates off of their sole dump-stat, which they then have to dump their already strained WBL into supporting with consumables, then that is about as clear a statement that the class sucks as is possible.

[olentu]

Isn't this just the commoner test.

[ericgrau]

I thought this was going to be why rogues shouldn't be such a high tier.

The real key here is that all classes get magic items. Some need to pay more to get a spell, but they still get it. And with a parabolic cost curve, paying double or triple usually only means being 1 level lower. Or... if it's really that critical to get them cheaper then dip a single level of a class for max UMD ranks or for items that use that class' magic (e.g., wizard 1 to use ALL wizard wands and staffs).

I once saw a wizard 10 vs. fighter 20 thread which was ludicrous because with level 20 wealth the fighter can outcast the wizard. And that's not cheating. Magic items are an expected and essential part of the D&D system.

So basically with magic items the non-spell problems of non-casters isn't as bad as you might think. For any class. Sure casters can grab them too but then they run into theurge syndrome so it's not as special. And on topic any class can dip a single level for it (or cross-class it later) so getting UMD isn't a big deal.

[Tvtyrant]

The problem with that definition is that contributing through UMDing wands is something so simple that you could pay a low-level Expert hireling to follow you around and do nothing but UMD wands and you end up with the same result, except they only cost a gold piece or two a week as opposed to the Monk's full share of treasure. Heck, the party Sorcerer/Wizard could have their Familiar do it for free and it would be much much better than the Monk.

If all your class can really claim is that they have cross-class access to a skill which operates off of their sole dump-stat, which they then have to dump their already strained WBL into supporting with consumables, then that is about as clear a statement that the class sucks as is possible.

Really? Because a low level expert is going to die instantly, and familiars are not a lot less squishy (and cost the caster xp when it inevitably dies). So yes, in a world where enemies sit there and let you pound on them they can do the same thing, but in a real game this is not a viable alternative.

And say you have a monk with a wand of Polymorph. This can get the Monk out of their sad, MAD world and into the light of usefulness. Suddenly the Monk can actually hit things! Even if you ban Polymorph (it is broken), there is still Aspect of the Earth Hunter. Give the same thing to an expert and you get 20 HP of getting itself killed.

I'm not disagreeing that the tiers are relevant, but a well built character from a weaker class can still contribute using UMD except in the world of TO.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think you guys may be misunderstanding the fallacy. The point is not that UMD is not strong, or that having UMD as a class skill is not a power boost. The point is that a class should be evaluated in light of the unique things it can do, rather than saying that it's useful because it can spend wealth to be strong.

[Spuddles]

I think you guys may be misunderstanding the fallacy. The point is not that UMD is not strong, or that having UMD as a class skill is not a power boost. The point is that a class should be evaluated in light of the unique things it can do, rather than saying that it's useful because it can spend wealth to be strong.

I don't understand why everything comes down to a pissing contest. Schneeky seems to be committing a fallacy in his argument, or way of thinking. I call it the pissing contest fallacy, whereby useful and powerful, though non-unique abilities are discounted, ignored, or underused, because a wizard could do it better.

[Tvtyrant]

a class should be evaluated in light of the unique things it can do, rather than saying that it's useful because it can spend wealth to be strong.

So then the wizard is useless as well, since everything it can do can be replicated with magic items. A Wizard or Sorcerer is literally an empty chassis with spells on top, and spells can be replicated with WBL. That is the reason the Artificer is stronger than them after all.

If you want to argue that a class is inferior because it doesn't have as easy a time replicating those features, I would agree with you. But 3.5 doesn't do unique things, it just has unique ways to do the same things. A Swordsage's shortrange teleport isn't much different from a wizard's short range teleport except that the mechanic for accessing it is.

Edit: I am going to bow out of this one. We are going to have to just disagree on the fundamental concept of useless.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't understand why everything comes down to a pissing contest. Schneeky seems to be committing a fallacy in his argument, or way of thinking. I call it the pissing contest fallacy, whereby useful and powerful, though non-unique abilities are discounted, ignored, or underused, because a wizard could do it better.

Not because a wizard could do it better, but because EVERY CLASS can do it.

When everyone has the option to UMD, it no longer becomes a source of power, and becomes background noise. Attempting to say 'this class is powerful because it can UMD' is tantamount to saying 'this class is powerful because it lets me roll dice'.

[kardar233]

I think what Shneeky's proposing is that UMD is the baseline power level for classes; a class that can't do anything well can still UMD. A class's power should then be determined by what it does in combat that is (even situationally) better than spending your actions UMDing stuff.

[Darius Kane]

Does that mean that Rogue, Bard, Warlock, Artificer, Expert etc. drop a tier or something?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Does that mean that Rogue, Bard, Warlock, Artificer, Expert etc. drop a tier or something?

They never went up a tier because of UMD. Warlock and Artificer are a specific exemption by being the only two classes who can Take 10 on UMD.

[Psyren]

My only issue with this thread is that, like Truenaming, it relies on custom items to be effective. Without the assumption of Burger King Magic-Mart, many of these non-UMD characters fall flat, particularly those for whom Charisma is a dump stat as well. While it is true that, yes, any class can UMD - doing it reliably (without custom items) is very difficult for some classes, causing them to waste actions or even wealth.

This is an issue because some DMs do in fact use treasure tables, or run modules with predefined loot. Others do allow the PCs to craft their own gear, but only stuff that exists in a sourcebook rather than being a guideline for creation.

Allowing custom items is tantamount to DM assistance, which is exactly the hallmark of lower-tier classes; they need more help to get by. A class with UMD built-in can just buy the wands, scrolls etc. without needing that extra assistance, thus it is stronger than one that does (all other parameters being equal.)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My only issue with this thread is that, like Truenaming, it relies on custom items to be effective. Without the assumption of Burger King Magic-Mart, many of these non-UMD characters fall flat, particularly those for whom Charisma is a dump stat as well. While it is true that, yes, any class can UMD - doing it reliably (without custom items) is very difficult for some classes, causing them to waste actions or even wealth.

This is an issue because some DMs do in fact use treasure tables, or run modules with predefined loot. Others do allow the PCs to craft their own gear, but only stuff that exists in a sourcebook rather than being a guideline for creation.

Allowing custom items is tantamount to DM assistance, which is exactly the hallmark of lower-tier classes; they need more help to get by. A class with UMD built-in can just buy the wands, scrolls etc. without needing that extra assistance, thus it is stronger than one that does (all other parameters being equal.)

Hitting a DC 20 check is easy, even without custom items. A level 1 character, with a +0 charisma modifier, and no ranks, has at least a 5% chance of making it. Even if you just put cross-class ranks into it, you'll be hitting it in no time.

[nedz]

I'm not sure whether you were referring to the Anti-Batman Joker build or the UMD Monk Handbook (Link deliberately withheld) ? I'm guessing the latter, but its probably moot.

UMD is good in the hands of a Warlock or a Artificer obviously, but otherwise?

UMD is essentially a way of converting your WBL to power.

Should you find your self in a low wealth or low magic setting then UMD is probably not something you should focus on; again obvious, but it does seem to keep happening to me.:smallfrown: There are other, more reliable, roads you can travel.

Most of the 'broken' powers a caster can access are much harder for the UMDer since Wands are only low level and this is the usual tool used.
Can you UMD a Timestop, or a PAO, or ... ?

Relying on items is an inherent limit on your options, unless you can make them quickly.

I think its a good and useful skill, but it can never make you a high tier unless you can also break WBL.

The case in point is rather like the lucky Rogue with the Rod of Wonder. Such characters can turn encounters around, and its usually memorable, but mainly because its unlikely.

[Psyren]

Hitting a DC 20 check is easy, even without custom items. A level 1 character, with a +0 charisma modifier, and no ranks, has at least a 5% chance of making it. Even if you just put cross-class ranks into it, you'll be hitting it in no time.

That covers wands, so you've got up to 4th-level spells. How about scrolls and equipment? The fighter who gets the scroll of Wish could be in a very good spot, or in a lot of trouble - did he pump Cha and cross-class enough ranks for a 37 DC?

The difference between him and the rogue/warlock in that case becomes nontrivial.

[Kurald Galain]

The relevant questions are,

(1) which level are we talking about? At low level, UMD is too unreliable to be practical.
(2) does the character have UMD as a class skill? If not, this doubles the minimum level for the character to effectively use it.
(3) does the character's class have a reason to have high charisma? If not, add another 3-5 levels before you can use it.

Of course there are some ways around that, but straightforwardly a thirteenth-level monk has about the same UMD as a first-level bard, around +8. That's a big difference.

[Psyren]

The relevant questions are,

(1) which level are we talking about? At low level, UMD is too unreliable to be practical.
(2) does the character have UMD as a class skill? If not, this doubles the minimum level for the character to effectively use it.
(3) does the character's class have a reason to have high charisma? If not, add another 3-5 levels before you can use it.

Of course there are some ways around that, but straightforwardly a thirteenth-level monk has about the same UMD as a first-level bard, around +8. That's a big difference.

Precisely. Obviously, at level 20 things like this don't matter as much; well, at 20 Truenamers are T1 too. It's a totally different game on the way up there.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That covers wands, so you've got up to 4th-level spells. How about scrolls and equipment? The fighter who gets the scroll of Wish could be in a very good spot, or in a lot of trouble - did he pump Cha and cross-class enough ranks for a 37 DC?

The difference between him and the rogue/warlock in that case becomes nontrivial.

A single feat fixes this problem and grants access to UMD as a class skill. Argument nullified, moreso for your particular example of Fighter since he's got more feats than he can shake a stick at.

[Augmental]

A single feat fixes this problem and grants access to UMD as a class skill.

Which feat are you referring to?

[Darius Kane]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/alternativeSkillSystems.htm#skillKnowledge

[ericgrau]

I think you guys may be misunderstanding the fallacy. The point is not that UMD is not strong, or that having UMD as a class skill is not a power boost. The point is that a class should be evaluated in light of the unique things it can do, rather than saying that it's useful because it can spend wealth to be strong.

No, not when the system is specifically designed to do the opposite and being without magic items hurts noncasters much more than casters. Everything must be evaluated together. Wealth itself is part of the system and campaigns that ditch it run into serious problems. You have to switch game systems if you want to do that and have it work. It's a bigger part of D&D than dungeons or dragons. You can have a superb campaign without those, but going without magical gear will ruin it.

[Darius Kane]

You can have a superb campaign without those, but going without magical gear can ruin it.
Fixed that for you.

[Gavinfoxx]

How about 'is extremely likely' to ruin it?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Both custom items and Unearthed Arcana material involve DM approval. Also having to blow a feat to get one class skill is nontrivial in my experience (though I haven't played Fighter 20s).

[navar100]

Your conclusion is incorrect. If all classes are awesome, then the tier system is worthless. And around here, that would be blasphemy.

Proud to be a blasphemer!

[LeshLush]

You conclusion is incorrect. UMD is awesome. All classes get it. Therefore, all classes are awesome.
One man's modus ponens is another man's modus tollens.

[Mirakk]

This is just semantics, but I believe Exemplars can also take 10 on UMD checks, provided they have at least 13 ranks in the skill, and select it for one of their Skill Masteries ;)

[Kelb_Panthera]

This is just semantics, but I believe Exemplars can also take 10 on UMD checks, provided they have at least 13 ranks in the skill, and select it for one of their Skill Masteries ;)

This has been the source of some heated debate. Arguments exist both for and against this ruling.

@the original subject:

I think the feat shneeky's refering to is apprentice (spellcaster) in DMG2. Though if you allow the feat skill knowledge from UA (even though it's intended to be used in a generic classes campaign) that works too.

I honestly don't have an opinion on this one. The threshold for "useless" varies too much from person to person for an objective argument regarding the uselessness (or lack there-of) of anything in the 3.5 system.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

This has been the source of some heated debate. Arguments exist both for and against this ruling.

@the original subject:

I think the feat shneeky's refering to is apprentice (spellcaster) in DMG2. Though if you allow the feat skill knowledge from UA (even though it's intended to be used in a generic classes campaign) that works too.

I honestly don't have an opinion on this one. The threshold for "useless" varies too much from person to person for an objective argument regarding the uselessness (or lack there-of) of anything in the 3.5 system.
As with the Leadership feat, apprenticeship depends heavily on the social setting of the campaign, the actual location of the PC, and the group dynamics. You’re free to disallow this feat if it would disrupt the campaign.Sliiiightly more general than UA material, but you do have to commit at level 1 + RP restrictions.

[Twilightwyrm]

Having been involved in more than a few UMD involving arguments myself, I find that UMD = not weak is a rather poor representation of the arguments often being made. While I'm sure some crazy person out there has argued that anyone with sufficient ranks in UMD is effectively a mini-wizard (in part, I suspect, due to the rather bad habit of some optimizers to assume wealth is a non-issue in optimization), most often this is not the argument being made by those arguing its useful(/less)ness. Rather, it is often regarding the use of UMD on a smaller degree, such as disguising the relative power of a more limited spellcaster in comparison to another class without said spell casting, but with competing class features.
So, while it is indeed true that simply having the ability to acquire ranks in, and become fairly proficient with, UMD does not actually make any class any stronger (since all classes can do so), it does make the ability to cast spells of some spellcasters less special. In essence, it makes other classes less inherently powerful that people would seem to believe them to be, making the non-spell casting abilities of whatever said class is being compared to more competitive. This is of course, a barely notable drop in the pool for full spellcasters, as the simple existence of metamagic and other such class abilities proves, but for those wishing to argue that the adept is a more effective class than a fighter, on on par with a rogue, this should be a nontrivial consideration.

[Killer Angel]

I once saw a wizard 10 vs. fighter 20 thread which was ludicrous because with level 20 wealth the fighter can outcast the wizard. And that's not cheating. Magic items are an expected and essential part of the D&D system.

If I recall correctly, it was Wiz. 11 Vs Fighter 20, there were a couple of ties, and wiz. won 4 battles, while the fighter "only" 2.


In short, please don't try to say 'well this class doesn't suck completely because it has UMD!', because when all is said and done, every class can get it. Some might have to jump through a hoop or spend a bit of WBL on it, but everyone can do it with minimal difficulty.

The fact is that, even if all classes can get UMD, rarely they'll do it.
You'll see fighters without UMD, and rogues with it. And even the rogues, not all of them tend to have it.
Many players don't even look at the crossclass skills, because they tend to optimise (or at least, they think so) their resources, aka their few skills points, and what they see is a class that should sacrifice a lot of skill points to have a skill, that they're going to use a lot later than other classes that have UMD as class skill.

So, in theory, everyone can take UMD, but in many games, when PCs start from low level and the campaign won't pass lev. 10-12, you tend to see UMD used only by the ones that have it as class skill.

It'll end with 3 non-casters and only one of them with points in UMD. The man with an eye within blind men, yadda yadda.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The fact is that, even if all classes can get UMD, rarely they'll do it.
You'll see fighters without UMD, and rogues with it. And even the rogues, not all of them tend to have it.
Many players don't even look at the crossclass skills, because they tend to optimise (or at least, they think so) their resources, aka their few skills points, and what they see is a class that should sacrifice a lot of skill points to have a skill, that they're going to use a lot later than other classes that have UMD as class skill.Name me a calss with UMD as a cross-class skill that really needs all its skill points. In general, most characters do just fine without skills. The only character in a party regularly making skill checks are the Point Man (spot/listen), the Box Man (often the same character, OL and DD), and sometimes if someone has a Counterspell monkey, a Spellcraft check (of course, he won't NEED to UMD since he's probably got the relevant spells on his spell list already). Maybe a Knowledge Devotion build, but again, that's almost always got a spell list, which obviates the need for UMD in the first place.


So, in theory, everyone can take UMD, but in many games, when PCs start from low level and the campaign won't pass lev. 10-12, you tend to see UMD used only by the ones that have it as class skill.

It'll end with 3 non-casters and only one of them with points in UMD. The man with an eye within blind men, yadda yadda.

A player's decision to not capitalize on a class feature does not cause the class feature to cease to exist. Every class, bar NONE, can be set up to UMD. It doesn't make a class more or less powerful that they can do so.

This argument I've heard most often with Truenamers, because they have UMD as a class skill, they aren't a Tier Broken class. They can simply be a micro-sorcerer.

The counter to the argument, and the basis of this treatise, is that you can also do that with any other class in the game, so that does not indicate that the Truenamer class is mechanically strong, or even 'less weak'.

To put it another way: Even Commoner can be set up to UMD fairly easily (made easier by the fact that it can chose UMD as its one skill known). So trying to defend the relative strength of a class based on a mechanic which even the class designed to be the weakest in the game can use is just plain silly.

This is less about "This character is more powerful because I put ranks in UMD", and more about "Truenamers Rock/Suck Less because they have UMD as a class skill". One is a character choice, the other is implying that the class is uncommon in this... which it isn't.

UMD can be used to synergize with other class abilities, to increase net sum total power relative to its power level without UMD. However, the statement that a class is more powerful compared to another class because it can be used to build a mini-sorcerer with UMD is false because EVERY class can be built to be a mini-sorcerer with UMD.

[Azimov]

Assuming for a moment that the premise here is about looking at the unique things classes do, and that the hypothesis is also that any class can UMD. I would put forward an argument that use magic device should be factored in at least slightly to any class which has native synergy or ways to increase the power or utility of #Use Magic Device.

The Truenamer (although im horribly unfamiliar with it) does at least have ways of boosting a UMD check through their utterances> ( I think?) if that is the case then they can use the skill more easily, more cheaply and faster, gaining access to higher level scrolls and powers than say, a commoner set up to do the same thing. Similarly for a warlock with decieve item, they can use the skill better than a commoner, which makes it cheaper, which makes it more powerful on them than on a commoner.

Other than that modification, i would agree with Shneekey, UMD is (reasonably) universal, and merely having access to it does nothing for a classes power. However, having access to a class feature which makes you much better at it, should be considered.

To further expand the idea, Assume that raising UMD costs effort, both in terms of stat allowance, skill points and monetary investment in items (if nothing else a circlet of persuasion). If class A can get higher scores without sacrificing other aspects of their class utility then UMD is objectively a better choice (or at least a cheaper one) on that character than on Class B. Class A can "cast" higher level spell scrolls, activate more powerful items and contribute more.

However there is other thing to consider and that is class Steroids. Putting a +10 strength score on a wizard using UMD is almost completely pointless, as is using UMD to emulate anything off the wizard/scor spell list, but put those same abilities on a chassis with a combat steroid (such as the ability to attack more times in a round, an increase to power attack return or something simiilar) and it becomes a better choice. It is possible that such considerations might raise the bar somewhat, the same spell access means different things to different characters. Wizards gain relatively little, warblades gain Bite of the X spells.

[Psyren]

A single feat fixes this problem and grants access to UMD as a class skill.

That's still one more feat than the rogue and warlock need to be good at it. Again, when you have plenty of feats at 20 this isn't a problem, but at level 3 or 8 when every component of your build is precious (e.g. you want to TWF and actually hit, or be a good archer, or regain psionic focus as a move action etc.) the opportunity cost is much higher. And even then, you need to find the skill points to actually put into it (no small feat for a fighter/barbarian) and your ability score mod is also more of a factor at low-mid levels.

Concerning the feat itself: assuming you meant Skill Knowledge, that's a variant that can't be assumed for all campaigns. Assuming you meant Apprentice, that has RP requirements that can't be assumed for all campaigns. All of your arguments depend on "with a perfectly permissive DM..." This may be a fine assumption at your table, but for this to be a true fallacy it has to apply to all situations, not just yours.

[Spuddles]

That's still one more feat than the rogue and warlock need to be good at it. Again, when you have plenty of feats at 20 this isn't a problem, but at level 3 or 8 when every component of your build is precious (e.g. you want to TWF and actually hit, or be a good archer, or regain psionic focus as a move action etc.) the opportunity cost is much higher. And even then, you need to find the skill points to actually put into it (no small feat for a fighter/barbarian) and your ability score mod is also more of a factor at low-mid levels.

Concerning the feat itself: assuming you meant Skill Knowledge, that's a variant that can't be assumed for all campaigns. Assuming you meant Apprentice, that has RP requirements that can't be assumed for all campaigns. All of your arguments depend on "with a perfectly permissive DM..." This may be a fine assumption at your table, but for this to be a true fallacy it has to apply to all situations, not just yours.

To be fair, UMD works much better in campaigns where you can go out shopping for wands of Wraithstrike &c.

[Augmental]

Expulsion: Grounds for expulsion include actions deemed destructive by the mentor, failing to pay tithes in a timely manner, or simply not spending the time required to study the chosen craft for an entire month. A character can also choose to leave an apprenticeship; although the apprentice can part on good terms with his mentor, the game effects are the same as if he were expelled. An expelled apprentice immediately loses the secondary benefits of this feat, and his apprentice class skills immediately become cross-class skills unless he possesses a level in a class that grants the skill as a class skill. A skill that becomes a cross-class skill begins to atrophy; the next time the character gains a level, any skill ranks in excess of his normal maximum skill ranks for a cross-class skill are lost forever.

So if you're a fighter with apprentice (spellcaster), your UMD abilities are pretty much on a timer since you won't be studying magic.

[Killer Angel]

Name me a calss with UMD as a cross-class skill that really needs all its skill points.

Well, without thinking too much, You named one: the monk.
Imagine that the DM says something about a short adventure, that will go from lev. 7 to lev. 9-10. A monk, which is pretty MAD and doesn’t focus on CHA, will have a very low UMD, so won’t put any rank at all in it. The rogue, on the other side...

Now, I snip the rest of your post; I agree with the idea behind your reasoning, and I could concede that it’s more an evaluation depending on builds, and your reasoning is generally more valid than mine, which is limited to low levels, but, as Psyren said, sometime if you don’t have enough money, levels, feats, you simply don’t consider UMD as a valid alternative.


Edit: Anyway, this doesn’t mean that a class with UMD as class skill, don’t suck.
But having it as a class skill, it’s easier and requires less investment and resources to use it, so, even if small, it's a bonus point.

[Jeff the Green]

So if you're a fighter with apprentice (spellcaster), your UMD abilities are pretty much on a timer since you won't be studying magic.

Why not? Doesn't taking ranks in UMD count as studying magic?

[Psyren]

Why not? Doesn't taking ranks in UMD count as studying magic?

Only if you roleplay it; that whole section is designed around combining crunch with roleplay. That's the problem - it assumes a DM that won't care whether you behave as an apprentice should or not. It gives minimum guidelines (e.g. the tithe, any quests/tasks, and the PC must spend 8 hours per week with the mentor, and if that time is missed, must spend 16 hours the following week, and so on until expulsion in week 4) but notes that the DM can add their own and even make apprenticeship harder.

Furthermore, once you hit 5th level, you automatically graduate from your apprenticeship. Your max ranks in UMD stay at the maximum level, but unless you take levels in a class with UMD (or have Able Learner) you must purchase them at the cross-class rate.

Finally, DMG2 notes that the whole thing is perfectly optional and requires DM approval to even implement. Now, you can argue that all feats require DM approval in some way, but normal feats don't require DM participation (i.e. creating a mentor to make the feat work, coming up with apprentice tasks etc.) So a DM opting out of this one is much more reasonable than, say, banning Weapon Focus.

[Eurus]

Y'know, living off of consumables is not a particularly efficient way to go. Doc Roc once mentioned on these boards pulling out a pretty heavily specced scroll artificer and found it mediocre/unsustainable (my memory fails me). Potions are like scrolls but worse. And wands have some interesting nova potential with artificers, but as a character's main supplement it kinda hurts.

Wands tend to have very low caster levels unless you dump more money into them, which means they're even more short-duration and vulnerable to dispelling than normal. Plus they cap at 4th level spells, which means that they're not going to do much in the late-mid levels. Although really, 4th level wands are already expensive enough that I don't see them used often -- wands mostly lose their efficiency after about 2nd level spells. Psionic dorjes can be made above 4th level, which is hilarious, but also horrifically expensive, so I'm not factoring those in too much.

The reason people lambasted the Joker Monk was not entirely because of the whole partially-charged-wands debacle or because of the assertion that UMD alone makes a class viable. It was partly because wands aren't really that great. Sure, go ahead and count UMD in your class's assets. It greatly increases your versatility for a relatively low opportunity cost, since you can carry utility items at relatively low cost and skill points are weak anyway. But if you're breaking out the wands in every combat because you don't have anything better to do, that's a bad sign.

[Killer Angel]

Sure, go ahead and count UMD in your class's assets. It greatly increases your versatility for a relatively low opportunity cost, since you can carry utility items at relatively low cost and skill points are weak anyway. But if you're breaking out the wands in every combat because you don't have anything better to do, that's a bad sign.

Absolutely true. UMD is a useful tool... but you must use it carefully, 'cause you're burning resources.
UMD simply gives you the chance to be more versatile, and to use some additional trick.

[Lonely Tylenol]

RE: Apprentice feat:

What about the feat Cosmopolitan (http://dndtools.eu/feats/forgotten-realms-campaign-setting--19/cosmopolitan--440/), which doesn't have nearly any roleplay stipulations, and gives you a +2 on the check?

(And also isn't variant material?)

[Kelb_Panthera]

RE: Apprentice feat:

What about the feat Cosmopolitan (http://dndtools.eu/feats/forgotten-realms-campaign-setting--19/cosmopolitan--440/), which doesn't have nearly any roleplay stipulations, and gives you a +2 on the check?

(And also isn't variant material?)

Didn't know about that one. Does it work though? UMD used to be an exclusive skill, so obviously cosmopolitan wasn't supposed to give access to it.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Didn't know about that one. Does it work though? UMD used to be an exclusive skill, so obviously cosmopolitan wasn't supposed to give access to it.

It's dubious, since you're tacking a 3.0 feat onto a skill made non-exclusive (as all were) through the 3.5 skill revision, but it's an alternative to using variant rules.

There is also the Flexible Mind feat, which makes two skills you have ranks in in-class skills from the point you take it onward (and gives a +1 to each), but has a chaotic alignment. Less dubious than either of the other two (in spite of being Dragon Magazine).

[Psyren]

RE: Apprentice feat:

What about the feat Cosmopolitan (http://dndtools.eu/feats/forgotten-realms-campaign-setting--19/cosmopolitan--440/), which doesn't have nearly any roleplay stipulations, and gives you a +2 on the check?

(And also isn't variant material?)

Isn't that FR-specific (and regional to boot?) Though you can at least pump Knowledge (local) for that second barrier.