Tyranids(40K) Vs Zerg(Starcraft)

[ShadowFireLance]

AAAAnd lets see what happens, Assume A full Tendrail of Hive Fleet Behemoth, And for added fun, Swarmlord is here.
The Zerg have had the Planet for a while, And Have any Troop Type that can be done.
However, Tyranids Have only 1 Domanitrix, And 4 Hirophent's.
And Any questions before We try to figure out who would win?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Don't we have enough of these on the board already?

[ShadowFireLance]

? I...Have not seen any?

[Forum Explorer]

you may have missed them but we did have a Borg vs Tyranids Vs Zerg Vs Flood thread. Or was it Orks instead of Tyranids? Not really important though.


Anyways I'm saying the Tyranids. There are more of them with better air support and actual bio-titans even if you did limit them to 5. Plus the Tyranids get their most powerful and greatest commander who could one shot Kerrigan, let alone anything else the Zerg could throw at it. The Tyranids also win at ranged combat and infiltration. They have in combat spawners who support their basic troops with their abilities as well as psychic powers.

[Tavar]

Best answer I've seen in these threads is that we lose, as the Zerg and Nid's basically absorb the other, becoming one, even more dangerous threat.

[Chess435]

Best answer I've seen in these threads is that we lose, as the Zerg and Nid's basically absorb the other, becoming one, even more dangerous threat.

I'm fairly certain Glyphstone was the one who came up with that. :smallsmile:

[Brother Oni]

I'm fairly certain Glyphstone was the one who came up with that. :smallsmile:

Probably because he's also getting tired of these threads and his mod instincts are getting twitchy. :smalltongue:

[Fan]

Tyranids win in a sweep possessing bio weapons that sweep even Protoss quality weaponry out of the park, have in combat spawning pools to rival the Zerg's own capabilities, and all the zerg units are literally watered down equivalents in every way.

[Killer Angel]

Given that Zergs are a scaled down version of Tyranids, my money goes on the stronger critters.

[Selrahc]

Tyranids win in a sweep possessing bio weapons that sweep even Protoss quality weaponry out of the park, have in combat spawning pools to rival the Zerg's own capabilities, and all the zerg units are literally watered down equivalents in every way.

Literally watered down? Like with a hose? :smalltongue:

[Fan]

Literally watered down? Like with a hose? :smalltongue:

Yes, a hose right into the gene pool.

[Cen]

Aren't Zerg and Tyranides basically the same thing?

[Killer Angel]

WAIT!
It's a draw (http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/616)! :smallbiggrin:

[Brother Oni]

Aren't Zerg and Tyranides basically the same thing?

While the concepts are similar, the Zerg are toned down Tyranids, since the 'nids have more units and options from the tabletop, not to mention rulesets for completely different scales (Battlefleet Gothic and Epic).

[shadow_archmagi]

Yeah, the Zerg start running out of units once you hit siege-tank size. The Tyranids keep going for awhile.

[TheSummoner]

Aren't Zerg and Tyranides basically the same thing?

In the way that a domestic housecat and a lion are both cats, yes. They are basically the same thing.

[Killer Angel]

Yeah, the Zerg start running out of units once you hit siege-tank size. The Tyranids keep going for awhile.

Well, Ultralisk are bigger (http://www.google.it/imgres?q=zerg+ultralisk&hl=it&sa=X&biw=1497&bih=818&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=SMLKiRgi4UJ6KM:&imgrefurl=http://www.freewebs.com/hydralisk924/apps/photos/photo%3Fphotoid%3D27811282&docid=IdNnpRKW0GqFiM&imgurl=http://www.freewebs.com/hydralisk924/photos/Zerg%252520Pictures/Ultralisk.jpg&w=500&h=293&ei=U8hlUPzXHISB4gSr9oAI&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=193&sig=112115458508669651204&page=1&tbnh=112&tbnw=191&start=0&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0,i:77&tx=61&ty=27).
Even if these dimensions, are not confirmed by the StarCraft Ghost Opening cinematic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XVsTrLW_04U#t=253s)(where the ultralisk is smaller, but still decisely bigger than a tank).

Not that this will make some real difference, anyway.

[Eldan]

Hm. Still smaller than a Hierophant, but much more massive. The Hierophant really looks rather fragile (and certainly is. People I know have endless problems with the model).

[The Glyphstone]

I'm fairly certain Glyphstone was the one who came up with that. :smallsmile:


Probably because he's also getting tired of these threads and his mod instincts are getting twitchy. :smalltongue:

That thread was a long time ago, but I do remember it, and I stand by the statement.:smallbiggrin:

[Cen]

In the way that a domestic housecat and a lion are both cats, yes. They are basically the same thing.

But doesn't it apply to all of Starcraft?

Protoss are Eldar but weaker
Terrans are Space Marines but weaker
Zerg are Tyranides but weaker

In their respective universes they fill exactly the same spot and fulfill the same role.

[Forum Explorer]

But doesn't it apply to all of Starcraft?

Protoss are Eldar but weaker
Terrans are Space Marines but weaker
Zerg are Tyranides but weaker

In their respective universes they fill exactly the same spot and fulfill the same role.

Pretty much. Starcraft was originally based off 40K afterall. (Or was that Warcraft?)

[Tvtyrant]

Pretty much. Starcraft was originally based off 40K afterall. (Or was that Warcraft?)

Can't it be both? :smalltongue:

[Kitten Champion]

They're all pretty much Heinlein redux.

Except space elves, which are...well, Spock.

[Eldan]

They were both pretty much explicitly based on Warhammer and 40k. I remember reading that they approached GW about making a game from their properties and were turned down, so they changed just enough to make it look unique.

[MLai]

I remember reading that they approached GW about making a game from their properties and were turned down, so they changed just enough to make it look unique.
And GW is still kicking themselves.

[GloatingSwine]

And GW is still kicking themselves.

Andy Chambers, who was the guy at GW who was basically the boss of the 40k product line at or around the time Starcraft came out, is now a Creative Director at Blizzard....

So, y'know, the stalker crush that Blizzard have on GW properties went pretty far.

[Weezer]

They were both pretty much explicitly based on Warhammer and 40k. I remember reading that they approached GW about making a game from their properties and were turned down, so they changed just enough to make it look unique.

I think that was with Warhammer Fantasy and Warcraft and when Blizzard went to make Starcraft 4 years later they did the same thing with 40K, but minus trying to license anything.

[TheSummoner]

Pretty much, yeah.

I wonder... Did they approach Dreamworks at any point about geting a lisense for a Kung Fu Panda game? Because that would explain quite a bit...

[The Glyphstone]

Pretty much, yeah.

I wonder... Did they approach Dreamworks at any point about geting a lisense for a Kung Fu Panda game? Because that would explain quite a bit...

Like how they got a time machine?:smallbiggrin:

[TheSummoner]

Wait... They have a time machine? :smallconfused:

Explain please?

[Tiki Snakes]

Pandarans (Or however you spell it) are older than Kung-Fu-Panda. They were in the Warcraft 3 expansions at least.

Not that the theory is entirely without merit. I can't help but wonder if there would be a mists of pandara without the Kungfu Panda films.

[TheSummoner]

Oh, gotcha now.

Yeah, they were in WC3. As an easter egg. As a joke. As a small nod to the fact that one of the creators likes pandas (they were also on Illidan's weapon for the same reason).

But as you said, they would't be making an expansion based on that if it wasn't for the popularity of the movies.

Or if you prefer, as their preview for it said... "First we were there. Then we went over there. But soon, for no apparent reason whatsoever, we will be going over there" :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

Oh, gotcha now.

Yeah, they were in WC3. As an easter egg. As a joke. As a small nod to the fact that one of the creators likes pandas (they were also on Illidan's weapon for the same reason).

But as you said, they would't be making an expansion if it wasn't for the popularity of the movies.

Or if you prefer, as their preview for it said... "First we were there. Then we went over there. But soon, for no apparent reason whatsoever, we will be going over there" :smallbiggrin:

It's a bit more complex than that - they've been very open about the design process that led to this, and it's easy to work out what they don't talk about.
-Blizzard: PANDAMEN! APRIL FOOLS!
~
-Blizzard: Wait, the fans like this idea?
Exec: Okay, throw your pandamen as a bonus feature into Frozen Throne.
~
Blizz: Wait, the fans really really like this?
Exec: Okay, start writing lore about these guys. And make a less stupid name than Pandamen...try Pandaren, that's totally original.
~
[Kung Fu Panda comes out]
Blizz+Exec: *no reaction, busy swimming in money and working on the Lich King expansion*
~
2010:
Exec: New expansion please, the hundred dollar bills in my money bit are getting crinkled.
Blizz: Crisis time guys...we've run out of pre-existing villains in the lore to set up as final expansion bosses, and we can't use Sargeras yet. Quick, someone think of a part of the world we haven't used, or we'll have to...make something original.
*collective gasps*
Other Blizz: What about those Pandaren Chris has been writing drunken fanfiction official lore about? Can they support an expansion?
Blizz: Good idea. Developers, make it happen. Make it awesome.
~
Fans: What? This is totally a Kung Fu Panda ripoff, these guys weren't in the lore till now?
Blizz: God dammit.

[deuterio12]

They were both pretty much explicitly based on Warhammer and 40k. I remember reading that they approached GW about making a game from their properties and were turned down, so they changed just enough to make it look unique.

Sigh, not this again...

Starcraft didn't rip off 40k. Both Starcraft and 40k ripped off the Starship Troopers books, that indeed had power-armored marines, alien bug hordes and psychic aliens mixed in all killing each other. 40k can't claim to have started the humans vs aliens as much as dreamworks can't claim to have started martial art pandas.

If Starcraft wanted to rip off 40k, they wouldn've included orcs and whatnot, and at least one terran melee unit, instead of a fully shooty faction.

[Tiki Snakes]

Sigh, not this again...

Starcraft didn't rip off 40k. Both Starcraft and 40k ripped off the Starship Troopers books, that indeed had power-armored marines, alien bug hordes and psychic aliens mixed in all killing each other. 40k can't claim to have started the humans vs aliens as much as dreamworks can't claim to have started martial art pandas.

If Starcraft wanted to rip off 40k, they wouldn've included orcs and whatnot, and at least one terran melee unit, instead of a fully shooty faction.

Regardless of whether that is indeed the case, it would be easier to believe if Warcraft hadn't pretty much explicitely started as Warhammer Fantasy, you know?

[hamishspence]

The Bugs were shooters in the Starship Troopers books- not melee. They built spaceships, rather than growing them.

40k draws from a wide range of sources- just one of which is Starship Troopers. Dune's probably one: "lasguns" "God-Emperor" "Navigators" and so forth.

Andy Chambers worked for GW, and then for Blizzard. Though I think he transferred after Starcraft came out- it may be SC2 that owes more to his touch.

[Fan]

Sigh, not this again...

Starcraft didn't rip off 40k. Both Starcraft and 40k ripped off the Starship Troopers books, that indeed had power-armored marines, alien bug hordes and psychic aliens mixed in all killing each other. 40k can't claim to have started the humans vs aliens as much as dreamworks can't claim to have started martial art pandas.

If Starcraft wanted to rip off 40k, they wouldn've included orcs and whatnot, and at least one terran melee unit, instead of a fully shooty faction.

That's not even remotely true if you've ever actually read the novels.

Starship Troopers was a political essay with a veil of science fiction combat to act as a vehicle for the writers anti communist views, the conflict between the bugs and the troopers was there to serve as a back drop.

The bugs are also not the first to be represented as aliens, many series before that characterized Aliens as large intelligent insects.

The powered armor presented is also completely different in design, capability, and concept, and Starship Troopers is far from the first thing to ever posit a powered exoskeleton as a means of protection and enhancement of the human body beyond standard capability.

If any series in particular rips off Starship Troopers, it's Ender's Game. Though Card himself denies it.

[deuterio12]

Yes, because WH fantasy was such an original concept with humans against orcs with mages and demons in between. That Tolkien totally ripped off WH fantasy! And Dungeons and Dragons also ripped of WH fantasy! And Order of the Stick itself ripped off WH fantasy! Dwarves! Elves! ;)


The Bugs were shooters in the Starship Troopers books- not melee. They built spaceships, rather than growing them.

I'm pretty sure there were melee bugs, since the movies were full of them.

Also the zerg don't have space ships (they can just fly IN SPACE).



40k draws from a wide range of sources- just one of which is Starship Troopers. Dune's probably one: "lasguns" "God-Emperor" "Navigators" and so forth.

Indeed.

That still isn't an excuse to claim that other games ripped off 40k when 40k basically ripped off all their stuff from other sources.

In particular because Starcraft has no god-emperors, navigators, lasguns, inquisition, knightly orders, etc, etc.

Again following the previous example, just because a game has orcs and humans and monsters and magics doesn't make it automatically a WH fantasy ripoff, since that had already been done quite a lot by other people before.

[Selrahc]

40k draws from a wide range of sources- just one of which is Starship Troopers. Dune's probably one: "lasguns" "God-Emperor" "Navigators" and so forth.

Yep. And Judge Dredd is another. I think those are the main three that melded to form a large part of the background for early 40k.



I'm pretty sure there were melee bugs, since the movies were full of them.


The movie was very much not in the same vein as the book.

[hamishspence]

Also the zerg don't have space ships (they can just fly IN SPACE).

Due to capturing giant space beasts, "zergifying" them, and turning them into transports, yes.

The rest of the zerg, to cross that much space, need to be carried- though some can leave their carrier to attack- Mutalisks, Scourge, and so on.

[deuterio12]

Point being that nids growing big ships to carry them is a key part of their faction, while the zerg have no direct analogue, using the overlords as both light transports and extensions of the overmind.


Yep. And Judge Dredd is another. I think those are the main three that melded to form a large part of the background for early 40k.

Since we're at it, 40k SM themselves have strong elements of the laysman series.

Also metal rock. Just look at the first edition of 40k.

[Weezer]

Yes, because WH fantasy was such an original concept with humans against orcs with mages and demons in between. That Tolkien totally ripped off WH fantasy! And Dungeons and Dragons also ripped of WH fantasy! And Order of the Stick itself ripped off WH fantasy! Dwarves! Elves! ;)


I'm pretty sure there were melee bugs, since the movies were full of them.

Also the zerg don't have space ships (they can just fly IN SPACE).


I'm sorry, you cannot talk about the movie in relation to the book. The director didn't even read the bloody book and rather than making something that had anything to do with the book he made a satire of an incorrect and ignorant conception of what the book was about.

[hamishspence]

Point being that nids growing big ships to carry them is a key part of their faction, while the zerg have no direct analogue, using the overlords as both light transports and extensions of the overmind.


The Zerg also have larger ships- in the SC manual- overlords are really more of a "dropship" analog.

[Tiki Snakes]

Again following the previous example, just because a game has orcs and humans and monsters and magics doesn't make it automatically a WH fantasy ripoff, since that had already been done quite a lot by other people before.

However if a game specifically starts it's development cycle as a version of a certain franchise and then fails to get the licence, it's pretty fair to say that it is derived from it even if they change enough details for it to go on to be it's own unique and valid thing.

That said, yes, Warhammer Fantasy is pretty derivative (though at least it derives from a wide enough mishmash to be original in it's own way), and 40k started as just Warhammer Fantasy in Space, before picking up other concepts and elements along the way.

[deuterio12]

The Zerg also have larger ships- in the SC manual- overlords are really more of a "dropship" analog.

In the first SC cutscenes when we see the swarm traveling between planets, it's just overlords and mutalisks and their other flying units, which can even "warp-jump" of sorts by themselves.

[hamishspence]

Been a while since I've seen it- but even if the leviathans are not shown on screen- there's the manual account of their existence.

Not sure why the cutscene wouldn't show them.

SC2, however, does:

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Leviathan

[Tiki Snakes]

Zerg depictions in the first game were inconsistent, as the art and concepts involved were still evolving as the game was being developed. By SC2, things have had time to be decided upon and stablised conceptually, so it's possibly a better source for that kind of thing. Apparently.

[deuterio12]

So you admit that "gasp" Starcraft actually developed a lore of its own? Because I could swear there were a bunch of people claiming it was all a complete rip-off just a few posts ago.

Also the leviathan is an actual campaign unit in SC 2.

[hamishspence]

Which was the point I was trying to make- that the Zerg do have a direct analogue to Tyranid Bioships- that was hinted at in the SC1 manual, and shown in the SC2 game.

[Weezer]

So you admit that "gasp" Starcraft actually developed a lore of its own? Because I could swear there were a bunch of people claiming it was all a complete rip-off just a few posts ago.

Also the leviathan is an actual campaign unit in SC 2.

Umm, something can take direct inspiration and still be it's own thing. SC was directly inspired by 40K, but that doesn't mean that every detail is exactly the same or that in the 14 years since release it hasn't grown and changed. I don't think anyone has even come close to saying 'SC is just a carbon copy of 40k and thus worthless'. It's derivative, but that isn't bad. Paradise Lost is derivitave of the Bible, most fantasy is derivative of LotR, etc, etc.

[hamishspence]

So- Maybe go through the list of "approximate analogs"- see how they compare- where one might be expected to be weaker and one stronger?

Zergling/Hormagaunt
Ultralisk/Carnifex (maybe Hierodule if you're pushing it)
Hydralisk/Ravenor
Queen/Parasite of Mortrex
Mutalisk/Gargoyle
Guardian/Harpy

Any others?

[shadow_archmagi]

Yeah, I'm quite fond of Starcraft and also of 40k. Well, actually, I despise the multiplayer scene at large, but I enjoyed the campaigns and had good fun playing LANs with my friends back in the dialup days. The lore is actually pretty neat too.

That said, the parallels are pretty clear: even if Starcraft has gone its own direction since then, there's definitely genetic information in common between the two.

[The Glyphstone]

Blizzard doesn't go very far in trying to hide it, either, as I've pointed out other times this has come up - for example, one of the humor quotes for the Gryphon Rider in Warcraft III was "This Warhammer cost me Forty K".

[Kitten Champion]

Yeah, I'm quite fond of Starcraft and also of 40k. Well, actually, I despise the multiplayer scene at large, but I enjoyed the campaigns and had good fun playing LANs with my friends back in the dialup days. The lore is actually pretty neat too.

That said, the parallels are pretty clear: even if Starcraft has gone its own direction since then, there's definitely genetic information in common between the two.

It's pretty clear from the aesthetics, though that's where the similarities end. They aren't in the same genre, given that WH40K is a Gothic fantasy space opera, whereas SC is military science fiction with the science-aspect left tofu soft due to it being an RTS.

As far as the more substantive elements, SC is clearly lifting more directly from the Alien/Predator universe. Which was probably a better decision. Both WH and SC clearly used the Aliens aesthetics as the basis for their xenomorphs, WH40K in typical fashion, took them up to eleven. The Protoss have the weird mix of tribal hunters and super-advanced technology as seen in the Predator films. Whereas the Terran civilization mixes the post-capitalist crapsack world of the human colonists but with a more 19th century America flavour.

[deuterio12]

Umm, something can take direct inspiration and still be it's own thing. SC was directly inspired by 40K, but that doesn't mean that every detail is exactly the same or that in the 14 years since release it hasn't grown and changed. I don't think anyone has even come close to saying 'SC is just a carbon copy of 40k and thus worthless'. It's derivative, but that isn't bad. Paradise Lost is derivitave of the Bible, most fantasy is derivative of LotR, etc, etc.

What is bad that 40k fans believe that 40k created the whole "power armored soldiers against space bugs and psychic aliens", which they didn't. Thus you can't acuse other franchises of doing that thing that they've ripped off 40k, because they weren't the originators.

In particular since as Kitten Champion pointed out, there's a lot more diferences than similarities when you start digging in. Terran marines are basic grunts, they don't have an obsession with melee weaponry, the galaxy isn't on the verge of being overrun by a dozen alien factions, there's no gods or magic at all, no god-emperor, etc, etc.


Blizzard doesn't go very far in trying to hide it, either, as I've pointed out other times this has come up - for example, one of the humor quotes for the Gryphon Rider in Warcraft III was "This Warhammer cost me Forty K".

By your logic, WC III would be the one ripping off 40k, not SC. I clearly missed the part where footmen drop from orbit and start firing guns. :smallamused:

They have references to transformers, Monty Python, arnold scwharzeneger (and a lot of his movies), alien, and a lot more stuff. But of course by some twisted logic, a joke about warhammers counts as an admission of guilt.

If anything, 40k is a lot worst at this, outright making some of their characters if not whole organizations carbon copies of other media.