Traps are overpowered[3.5]

[Kansaschaser]

Okay, I've been playing the current trap finder in our D&D game so I started to read more in depth about traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm).

I saw an "Inflict Light Wounds" trap. It's activated by touch and automatically resets every round. I causes 1d8+1 damage to living targets. You get a Will save for half damage.

The reason this trap caught my eye is because we have a Vampire in our group that always seems to have a difficult time getting healing. Our healer rarely memorizes inflict spells. So for a cost of 500gp and 40xp, we could put this "trap" on a masterwork lock. Then the Vampire could wear this lock around his neck on a string so it's underneath his clothing/armor and he would get 1d8+1 healing every round.

Am I right about that? Could the reverse be true? Could we get "Cure Light Wounds" on a trapped lock and the non-undead of our party benefit from this trick?

It just seems....broken! :smallconfused:

[Dusk Eclipse]

You sir, have discovered the bases of the Tippyverse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007).

[Piggy Knowles]

Yeah, this is a pretty common complaint about the trap mechanics.

Honestly, it just doesn't bear too much thinking about it. If special traps are allowed, it completely breaks open all the other magic item creation rules and balances.... you end up with unslotted, at-will magic items for a price that's only a tiny fraction of their actual worth. You can even trigger reset mechanisms so that you can make them work multiple times in a round. It's bad.

On the other hand, if traps follow the normal item creation rules, they become prohibitively expensive and no dungeon would use them, taking away a pretty fun element to the game.

So again, I choose to just not think too hard about it.

[Kansaschaser]

Yeah, this is a pretty common complaint about the trap mechanics.

Honestly, it just doesn't bear too much thinking about it. If special traps are allowed, it completely breaks open all the other magic item creation rules and balances.... you end up with unslotted, at-will magic items for a price that's only a tiny fraction of their actual worth. You can even trigger reset mechanisms so that you can make them work multiple times in a round. It's bad.

On the other hand, if traps follow the normal item creation rules, they become prohibitively expensive and no dungeon would use them, taking away a pretty fun element to the game.

So again, I choose to just not think too hard about it.

Even if you arn't allowed to create custom traps, if everyone in your party played an undead of some kind and bought the "Inflict Light Wounds" traps on tiny items like locks and necklaces, you'd be set for healing.

[Telonius]

Here's my take on that kind of thing...

If an effect (most likely something the devs overlooked) is so ridiculously simple and beneficial that every character who could have it, would - then it is completely ineffective. You can assume that pretty much everyone in the world has it, so each person gets its benefits - meaning they all cancel out.

[Eldan]

Pretty bad, yes. Tippy included automatically reseting create food traps to create a post-scarcity society. There's too much you can do with them. Imagine a Disintegrate trap used as a drill.

[Randomguy]

I think it's more along the lines of "custom magic items are broken". Traps are just custom magic items, but much less expensive for some reason. Which makes them even more broken.

[Kansaschaser]

Pretty bad, yes. Tippy included automatically reseting create food traps to create a post-scarcity society. There's too much you can do with them. Imagine a Disintegrate trap used as a drill.

How do you get a "Disintegrate" trap to work against an object? None of the triggers listed would work against an object (at least not that I can tell).

[HunterOfJello]

How do you get a "Disintegrate" trap to work against an object? None of the triggers listed would work against an object (at least not that I can tell).

Animate Object :smalltongue:

[Piggy Knowles]

How do you get a "Disintegrate" trap to work against an object? None of the triggers listed would work against an object (at least not that I can tell).

Make a self-resetting trap with the trigger that pressure is applied to the front of the trap. Push the trap against what you want to be disintegrated. It will continue to fire disintegrates until whatever you are pressing it against is no more. Voila - disintegrate drill!

[willpell]

Here's my take on that kind of thing...

If an effect (most likely something the devs overlooked) is so ridiculously simple and beneficial that every character who could have it, would - then it is completely ineffective. You can assume that pretty much everyone in the world has it, so each person gets its benefits - meaning they all cancel out.

That doesn't really work though. If everyone is getting the benefit of, say, a bulletproof forcefield, that's going to mean that bank robbing is a much more profitable occupation because nobody can shoot the thief as he flees. Putting everybody on the same level doesn't necessarily mean that the level in question has not changed compared to where they were all standing before. If everyone can get, say, magic items more cheaply, then the benefit of ICFs to characters who invest in them goes down, and the effectiveness of highly item-dependent classes go up; the paradigm has definitely shifted.

[Novawurmson]

I don't particularly like traps for the most part; I feel like they're an unfun way to force somebody to play a class with a disable traps feature (not that I don't like skillmonkeys, I just don't like parties being forced to have a specific class feature). They're mostly all-or-nothing skill rolls/saving throws with not much real relevance to the plot.

[LTwerewolf]

I don't particularly like traps for the most part; I feel like they're an unfun way to force somebody to play a class with a disable traps feature (not that I don't like skillmonkeys, I just don't like parties being forced to have a specific class feature). They're mostly all-or-nothing skill rolls/saving throws with not much real relevance to the plot.

Our dm usually saves things for when there already is someone like that in the party. If we don't have a trapfinder, we don't tend to run into traps. He's always been very much against the typical party roles, and usually tries to steer us away from that.

[Kansaschaser]

I don't particularly like traps for the most part; I feel like they're an unfun way to force somebody to play a class with a disable traps feature (not that I don't like skillmonkeys, I just don't like parties being forced to have a specific class feature). They're mostly all-or-nothing skill rolls/saving throws with not much real relevance to the plot.


Our dm usually saves things for when there already is someone like that in the party. If we don't have a trapfinder, we don't tend to run into traps. He's always been very much against the typical party roles, and usually tries to steer us away from that.

Unfortunatly, our DM is not like that. I may be able to find traps (as a Scout), but I can't diable them since Disable Device is not a class skill. We have been "punished" on several occasions because we are unable to destroy or diable a trap. We have had several characters die. Each time soneone brings in a new character, they don't have a way or diabling traps and the DM punishes us even more.

Edit: That's the main reason I was reading over traps to see how I could handle them without using Diable Device. It appears someone is going to have to pick up an Adamantine Weapon in order to "break" the device.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Unfortunatly, our DM is not like that. I may be able to find traps (as a Scout), but I can't diable them since Disable Device is not a class skill. We have been "punished" on several occasions because we are unable to destroy or diable a trap. We have had several characters die. Each time soneone brings in a new character, they don't have a way or diabling traps and the DM punishes us even more.

Edit: That's the main reason I was reading over traps to see how I could handle them without using Diable Device. It appears someone is going to have to pick up an Adamantine Weapon in order to "break" the device.

Check Complete Adventurer's Errata it added Disable Device to the scout's class skill and worse comes to worst, just start taking cross-class ranks

[prufock]

If everyone is getting the benefit of, say, a bulletproof forcefield, that's going to mean that bank robbing is a much more profitable occupation because nobody can shoot the thief as he flees.

If everyone has a bulletproof forcefield, the the tellers and civilians have no reason to fear the robbers, so robbery becomes LESS profitable.

[LTwerewolf]

Unfortunatly, our DM is not like that. I may be able to find traps (as a Scout), but I can't diable them since Disable Device is not a class skill. We have been "punished" on several occasions because we are unable to destroy or diable a trap. We have had several characters die. Each time soneone brings in a new character, they don't have a way or diabling traps and the DM punishes us even more.

Edit: That's the main reason I was reading over traps to see how I could handle them without using Diable Device. It appears someone is going to have to pick up an Adamantine Weapon in order to "break" the device.

Shatter may do the trick on a lot of things, dispel magic also working on a lot of things. Arcane sight should basically make traps glow, remove curse for curse traps, summon monster 1 to trigger te trap while the rest stand behind cover, stone shape can wall off the trap while still walking around it. All of these things can be placed in wands.

Edit: remember that anything a mundane can do, a wizard or cleric can do better. And safer. And usually more quickly.

[Kansaschaser]

Check Complete Adventurer's Errata it added Disable Device to the scout's class skill and worse comes to worst, just start taking cross-class ranks

It did!?!? :smallfurious: Damn, I really need to start paying attention to the errata!

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yeah; but it also makes it so skirmish doesn't trigger if you move using a mount :smallsigh:

[Kansaschaser]

Yeah; but it also makes it so skirmish doesn't trigger if you move using a mount :smallsigh:

Oh, that doesn't bother me. I've been using the Sudden Leap maneuver to gain my Skirmish and then do a full attack or Rapid Shot. Although, I can only do that every other round.

Having Diable Device would greatly improve my character's abilities out of combat.

[Roland St. Jude]

If everyone has a bulletproof forcefield, the the tellers and civilians have no reason to fear the robbers, so robbery becomes LESS profitable.Or, as Telonius first suggested, it remains exactly as profitable as it was before because the ubiquitous bulletproof forcefield forces bank robbers to threaten with bombs/blades/alternative weapon and law enforcement to respond with tasers/foam spray/other alternative weapon.

I'm not saying Telonius' premise is universally true, just that it seems to work okay for the example that's been foisted on him.

[Deepbluediver]

My biggest question is: why do the traps automatically reset without a continuous source of magical input? (or to put it another way, why is the Permenancy spell so cheap?)
There is also the problem with letting characters pick their own stuff via the magic-mart method of enchanted item production. Yes it's the easiest method for the DM to use, but it also introduces by far the most player-side abuses.

Frankly, the biggest design failures of D&D is that many MANY things seem like they where contructed in a vacuum, where the architect thought "This will work great against players when they do ABC, etc", when in reality, every player who plays more than one game says to themselves "ABC didn't work so well last time, lets try XYZ". And then the optimizers get their hands on it, and they say "If I use QBD, then I can completely reverse what this does and turn a crippling PC penalty into a broken PC advantage".

[Andreaz]

---unrelaetd to tippytraps---
My favorite trap consists of flooding your maze, passing through the refuse pit on the way.

Refuse pit, I must add, that is maintained by green slimes.
-----------------------------
You may resume your normal programming.

[Kansaschaser]

My biggest question is: why do the traps automatically reset without a continuous source of magical input? (or to put it another way, why is the Permenancy spell so cheap?)
There is also the problem with letting characters pick their own stuff via the magic-mart method of enchanted item production. Yes it's the easiest method for the DM to use, but it also introduces by far the most player-side abuses.

Frankly, the biggest design failures of D&D is that many MANY things seem like they where contructed in a vacuum, where the architect thought "This will work great against players when they do ABC, etc", when in reality, every player who plays more than one game says to themselves "ABC didn't work so well last time, lets try XYZ". And then the optimizers get their hands on it, and they say "If I use QBD, then I can completely reverse what this does and turn a crippling PC penalty into a broken PC advantage".

Yeah, it comes down to a question of: Just because I can, should I?

Just because I have access to an "Inflict Light Wounds" trap, should I buy it and use it on my Vampire companion?

Just because I can make custom traps, should I make a "Cure Light Wounds" trap for my other companions?

[Ashtagon]

Okay, I've been playing the current trap finder in our D&D game so I started to read more in depth about traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm).

I saw an "Inflict Light Wounds" trap. It's activated by touch and automatically resets every round. I causes 1d8+1 damage to living targets. You get a Will save for half damage.

The reason this trap caught my eye is because we have a Vampire in our group that always seems to have a difficult time getting healing. Our healer rarely memorizes inflict spells. So for a cost of 500gp and 40xp, we could put this "trap" on a masterwork lock. Then the Vampire could wear this lock around his neck on a string so it's underneath his clothing/armor and he would get 1d8+1 healing every round.

Am I right about that? Could the reverse be true? Could we get "Cure Light Wounds" on a trapped lock and the non-undead of our party benefit from this trick?

It just seems....broken! :smallconfused:

Here's my take on it.

Everything in the DMG is meant as a DM tool to enhance the setting, not as a player tool to get more powerful. And even that comes with an advisory that the DM should only allow such things in the setting under his control. If the DM doesn't want an inflict wounds trap in, then it simply won't exist and won't be possible to build it.

[ArcanaGuy]

Or introduce some sort of modifier. An always-available and beneficial trap defeats the purpose of a trap.


Make it so in the making of the trap ... it does a 'cure wounds' to the undead.
Make it so that after being overloaded (at the GM's discretion) the trap 'burns out' suddenly, and it can only fire 3 times a day, or 1 time a day ... or not at all, but instead explodes in a reverse of what it's been doing. So if it's been doing a 'cause light wounds' a hundred times... make it explode doing 10d8 cure in a ten-foot radius. But also make sure that this happening is *unpredictable*
Change the price of the trap to make it three or four times the cost of a wand.
Make it so that a trapped lock only resets if it's been in the same place for an hour to 'align to the local ley patterns.' They could still use it for undead healing during rest periods, but they won't be able to use it mid-combat.

[NichG]

First off, let me say that I agree that the easiest and most flexible solution is for everyone at the table to agree to have a blind-spot for certain exploits. A social contract not only prevents the abuse, but it prevents people trying to finagle their way around patches to the abuse.

That said, its interesting to think about how one would fix this by modification of the rules or even the fluff. The idea that a resetting magical trap needs a power source is a good start I think. It increases loot a lot (but then again a trap is an encounter, so why not have it give loot too?) but what if one just priced out traps the way you'd price out Eternal Wands or even just partially charged Wands?

The price for a resetting magical trap is 500gp * CL * Spell level. For a wand, its 750gp * CL * Spell level. So you could get a lot of charges out of such a thing if you priced it as a partially charged wand. A given trap probably shouldn't need to fire more than 5 times in its existence in realistic circumstances, and this gives you 20+.

One could even argue that traps as they are are unrealistically expensive. The treasure that a 'trap-filled vault' guards is probably more the traps themselves than whatever is within if you're going by gp value (barring priceless things of course). So make it so you can make a trap that uses 5 charges of a partially charged wand, and one-shot traps are using a single charge of said wand - instead of 50gp*SL*CL it becomes 15gp*SL*CL.

If you really must have true recharging traps, have e.g. 'Energy Transformation Field' be a required spell in their construction, and require them to suck spell levels from somewhere. Maybe there's a natural phenomenon that produces the spell energy of a few dozen spell slots each day that you can hook into your trap complex, creating 'geothaumically powered' traps. If the PCs find such a trap and remove it, it stops working (but similarly, if they disconnect it from the grid, it stops working).

[Kansaschaser]

Or introduce some sort of modifier. An always-available and beneficial trap defeats the purpose of a trap.


Make it so in the making of the trap ... it does a 'cure wounds' to the undead.
Make it so that after being overloaded (at the GM's discretion) the trap 'burns out' suddenly, and it can only fire 3 times a day, or 1 time a day ... or not at all, but instead explodes in a reverse of what it's been doing. So if it's been doing a 'cause light wounds' a hundred times... make it explode doing 10d8 cure in a ten-foot radius. But also make sure that this happening is *unpredictable*
Change the price of the trap to make it three or four times the cost of a wand.
Make it so that a trapped lock only resets if it's been in the same place for an hour to 'align to the local ley patterns.' They could still use it for undead healing during rest periods, but they won't be able to use it mid-combat.


That is all through DM fiat. Now, if the DM made some traps "burn out", that would make my job as the trap finder/disabler much easier.

He uses too many trap against us to do something like that though.

[ArcanaGuy]

Oh, right, you're not the DM.

Um ...

Well, then, start off simply going to the DM and tell him, "I think I found a rule breaker ... " and talk with him about what you can do about this. Find out how the *DM* wants to handle it.

[Kansaschaser]

Oh, right, you're not the DM.

Um ...

Well, then, start off simply going to the DM and tell him, "I think I found a rule breaker ... " and talk with him about what you can do about this. Find out how the *DM* wants to handle it.

Ha! :smalltongue: You're hilarious. I'm gonna abuse the crud out of traps against the DM since he's been using them so much against us.

He shot down my use of Runes (Runecaster Prestige Class):smallmad:, which I didn't think was overpowered. So I'm gonna break his world with traps that he doesn't think is overpowered.

[ericgrau]

Two solutions:
1. Don't let it be portable. A portable enchanted item is a magic item not a trap.
2. The creation guidelines are only guidelines, not rules; don't allow any abuse. At will healing in particular is something that would never be allowed on a custom magic item, so it shouldn't be allowed on a trap either. Inflict light wounds is a bit of an oversight since they probably weren't thinking about undead. Really it should be removed too or else it should have no effect on undead.

[Kansaschaser]

Two solutions:
1. Don't let it be portable. A portable enchanted item is a magic item not a trap.
2. The creation guidelines are only guidelines, not rules; don't allow any abuse. At will healing in particular is something that would never be allowed on a custom magic item, so it shouldn't be allowed on a trap either. Inflict light wounds is a bit of an oversight since they probably weren't thinking about undead. Really it should be removed too or else it should have no effect on undead.

Well, we have dealt with "portable" traps already in his world. There have been trapped treasure chests, lock boxes, cages, music boxes, weapons, and masterwork locks.

So it's a little late for the DM to say, "Sorry, no portable traps." :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

Well it could at least be a huge item like a heavy chest. Lock boxes might have gone too far for a spell, but they're reasonable for poison needles.

Still he could retcon inflict/cure.

[Kansaschaser]

Well it could at least be a huge item like a heavy chest. Lock boxes might have gone too far for a spell, but they're reasonable for poison needles.

Still he could retcon inflict/cure.

Chests are not "huge". A normal treasure chest fits inside a normal 5ft square. It holds 2 cubic feet of material and up to 200 pounds. The chest itself only weighs 25 pounds. The dimensions of the chest alone would allow several of them to fit inside a 5ft square.

[ericgrau]

Yet anything over 2 feet wide can't get into the mouth of a bag of holding. You need a 20,000 gp portable hole. That's where the inconvenience starts. Even if you have the strength it's a real pain.

[Kansaschaser]

Yet anything over 2 feet wide can't get into the mouth of a bag of holding. You need a 20,000 gp portable hole. That's where the inconvenience starts. Even if you have the strength it's a real pain.

There would be no point to put it into a bag of holding. It has to be "touched" for it to work. I could see a medium sized creature with one or two of these things strapped to it's back.

If you were to play a Large or Huge creature, you could have even more of them strapped to your back. Each one of them doing something different.

Of course, the enemies could determine that the "chests" on your back are giving you a benefit of some kind and sunder them. Or, if they grapple you, they may start to get the benefit of the "trap" as long as they fail their save since it only requires touch to activate.

Oh, and our DM has abbused the crud out of grapple. He uses it almost every fight and it's really frustrating.

[Psyren]

I don't particularly like traps for the most part; I feel like they're an unfun way to force somebody to play a class with a disable traps feature (not that I don't like skillmonkeys, I just don't like parties being forced to have a specific class feature). They're mostly all-or-nothing skill rolls/saving throws with not much real relevance to the plot.

Technically, you're not forced to have Trapfinding any more than you're forced to have feather fall. You can trigger a lot of traps simply by sending a disposable summon ahead of the party; failing that, there's always buffing up the beatstick and using him to facecheck, followed by a little extra healing afterward.

So I don't see a problem with them (as intended) at all. It's an easy way to make the skillmonkey shine.

Self-resetting beneficial traps are another issue though.

[ericgrau]

Pick up armor spikes and make it your main weapon, magical enchantments and all, if you always grapple. Review the grapple rules: you can full attack. Get potions of enlarge person and use liberally. Casters should get still spell and combat casting, or combat casting and wait for dimension door (already stilled by default). In the mean time suggestion is also stilled by default, but it's kind of mediocre.

Back on topic you're still jumping through hoops, especially if you also want a bag of holding or handy haversack. Or putting it into the trunk, it's 2 or more move actions to get anything inside. Otherwise your inventory is limited. And even then I wouldn't allow cure or inflict or any overly spammable spell. Other spells would be totally fine with me (and hilarious btw: large rustic trunk shocking grasp attack :smallbiggrin:).

[Kansaschaser]

Pick up armor spikes and make it your main weapon, magical enchantments and all, if you always grapple. Review the grapple rules: you can full attack. Get potions of enlarge person and use liberally. Casters should get still spell and combat casting, or combat casting and wait for dimension door (already stilled by default). In the mean time suggestion is also stilled by default, but it's kind of mediocre.

Most of our group can't wear armor (monks and spellcasters). The rest of us are limited to light armor. As a Scout, I'm limited to light armor. Can you even add armor spikes to leather armor? I always thought they could only be added to armor that was made mostly of metal.


Back on topic you're still jumping through hoops, especially if you also want a bag of holding or handy haversack. Or putting it into the trunk, it's 2 or more move actions to get anything inside. Otherwise your inventory is limited. And even then I wouldn't allow cure or inflict or any overly spammable spell. Other spells would be totally fine with me (and hilarious btw: large rustic trunk shocking grasp attack :smallbiggrin:).

I'd be willing to stick to the limitations of the trapped trunks in order to gain it's benefits. Plus our DM has allready allowed trapped locks, so that's what I'm going to use.

[hamishspence]

SRD doesn't mention that as a requirement. Not sure how it would look though. Maybe like studded leather but more extreme.

[Jeff the Green]

A little off-topic, but if (when) your DM decides to nerf your traps, a good solution for curing your vampire is wands. Lesser vigor should work and is the cheapest, but inflict light wounds will work too.

[Kansaschaser]

A little off-topic, but if (when) your DM decides to nerf your traps, a good solution for curing your vampire is wands. Lesser vigor should work and is the cheapest, but inflict light wounds will work too.

Lesser Vigor works on Undead? :smallconfused:

If that's true, we have a Druid that uses that spell all the time.

[Kelb_Panthera]

This sort of thing is why I've always ruled that magical traps have to be placed on something that's fixed to a non-mobile structure. You can put a magical trap on a lock, in a door, in the wall of a building. You cannot put a magical trap on a padlock on that same door, nor could you put a magical trap on a lock in a door in a halfling caravan's wagon.

The fluff reason is that magical traps draw their magic from arcane formulae that target an object at a particular point of reference. Mobile objects and structures don't have that point of reference. Obviously exceptions exist, permenanced symbol of X spells being just one example.

@traps being too binary: this is exactly why dungeonscape added rules for encounter traps. I highlly recommend that book if you want traps to be a thing.

[Kansaschaser]

This sort of thing is why I've always ruled that magical traps have to be placed on something that's fixed to a non-mobile structure. You can put a magical trap on a lock, in a door, in the wall of a building. You cannot put a magical trap on a padlock on that same door, nor could you put a magical trap on a lock in a door in a halfling caravan's wagon.

The fluff reason is that magical traps draw their magic from arcane formulae that target an object at a particular point of reference. Mobile objects and structures don't have that point of reference. Obviously exceptions exist, permenanced symbol of X spells being just one example.

@traps being too binary: this is exactly why dungeonscape added rules for encounter traps. I highlly recommend that book if you want traps to be a thing.

So in your world, what do you define as "non-mobile"?

A trap is placed inside a castle, so it works as a normal trap. However, if the castle becomes mobile(floating/walking) at a later date the traps stop working?

If you say that the trap works just fine, then at what point do you say that a mobile domicile is too small for it to work?

What if several traps were placed inside a mansion that later becomes mobile?

Same for a large house?

A small house?

An outhouse? (somewhat funny if you think about it.)

A chest?

A box?

A lock?

[Kelb_Panthera]

So in your world, what do you define as "non-mobile"?

A trap is placed inside a castle, so it works as a normal trap. However, if the castle becomes mobile(floating/walking) at a later date the traps stop working?Yep. The magic's point of reference just got up and left, so the magic stops working.


If you say that the trap works just fine, then at what point do you say that a mobile domicile is too small for it to work?

What if several traps were placed inside a mansion that later becomes mobile?

Same for a large house?

A small house?

An outhouse? (somewhat funny if you think about it.)

A chest?

A box?

A lock?

All of the above are completely non-functional as magical traps. Mechanical traps will work just fine, and traps that use the normal formulae for determining magic items are possible, but the magical trap formulae cease to function if the item they are attached to moves in relation to the fixed terrain around it. Rune circles (RoS) make a nice alternative for your floating fortress or walking mansion.

Edit: misremembered the rules for rune circles :smallredface:

[Kansaschaser]

Yep. The magic's point of reference just got up and left, so the magic stops working.



All of the above are completely non-functional as magical traps. Mechanical traps will work just fine, and traps that use the normal formulae for determining magic items are possible, but the magical trap formulae cease to function if the item they are attached to moves in relation to the fixed terrain around it. Rune circles (RoS) make a nice alternative for your floating fortress or walking mansion.

Technically, everything on the planet is "moving". The earth is revolving around the sun. The planet is spinning. Heck, if all you have to do is "move" the traps in an entire dungeon to nullify them, then everytime there is an earthquake that shifts the continents a few inches(sometimes a few feet), then all magic traps on that continent stops working.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Technically, everything on the planet is "moving". The earth is revolving around the sun. The planet is spinning. Heck, if all you have to do is "move" the traps in an entire dungeon to nullify them, then everytime there is an earthquake that shifts the continents a few inches(sometimes a few feet), then all magic traps on that continent stops working.

The technicality of the earth moving doesn't necessarily apply to your D&D campaign world. Even so, the point of reference is the world itself, not the world's place in the universe.

As for the earthquake, I'm comfortable allowing a little bit of wiggle room, after all that lock in the door in my example moves through an arc a few feet long every time the door is opened, doesn't it. A severe enough earthquake could disrupt the magical traps just like it could set off the mechanical ones. Your dungeon might be crumbling at that point though.

[Lord_Gareth]

Technically, everything on the planet is "moving". The earth is revolving around the sun. The planet is spinning. Heck, if all you have to do is "move" the traps in an entire dungeon to nullify them, then everytime there is an earthquake that shifts the continents a few inches(sometimes a few feet), then all magic traps on that continent stops working.

Down this road lies breaking down fortresses with immovable rods. If ye value your sanity, walk not down it.

[Studoku]

Lesser Vigor works on Undead? :smallconfused:

If that's true, we have a Druid that uses that spell all the time.
RAW, it works. It grants fast healing instead of healing with positive energy like the 'cure x wounds' line so there's nothing that says it does the opposite to undead.

On the other hand, this interpretation means that undead are fine on the positive energy plane so consult your DM before use.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Down this road lies breaking down fortresses with immovable rods. If ye value your sanity, walk not down it.

If a high-pressure portable gas tank can not only break through cinderblock, but carve a neat little circle in it just from pure blunt force, the immovable rod would do nothing more than leave a small hole shaped like the rod.

[Gavinfoxx]

You wanna break his game using items?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14zilT4WGOyHM0AfpG4-GmD2FkgDg1HZ9HC1cTleQHds/edit

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14zilT4WGOyHM0AfpG4-GmD2FkgDg1HZ9HC1cTleQHds/edit

[TuggyNE]

Lesser Vigor works on Undead? :smallconfused:

If that's true, we have a Druid that uses that spell all the time.

Fast healing works on anything, living, mechanical, or undead. So yeah, it works just fine.


RAW, it works. It grants fast healing instead of healing with positive energy like the 'cure x wounds' line so there's nothing that says it does the opposite to undead.

On the other hand, this interpretation means that undead are fine on the positive energy plane so consult your DM before use.

Sadly, RAW for the PEP is terribly written, and undead are fine in at least two ways: first, fast healing granted heals them; second, they're immune to the Fort-save-or-explode (because it's a Fort save, and doesn't affect objects).

Yeah, RAW is terribly written.

[Jeff the Green]

RAW, it works. It grants fast healing instead of healing with positive energy like the 'cure x wounds' line so there's nothing that says it does the opposite to undead.

There are, if I'm not terribly mistaken, also undead that naturally get fast healing.

[ericgrau]

Sadly, RAW for the PEP is terribly written, and undead are fine in at least two ways: first, fast healing granted heals them; second, they're immune to the Fort-save-or-explode (because it's a Fort save, and doesn't affect objects).

Yeah, RAW is terribly written.

Hmm, so infinite hp undead should be the dominate denizens of the PEP. But RAW says instead it's virtual devoid of creatures and "(Undead are almost impossible to find on this plane, however.)".

I think RAI is that the PEP damages undead, but it is very poorly written. I was a bit surprised when I tried to planeshift an undead baddy there in a recent RAW challenge.

For lesser vigor I wouldn't necessarily say that it damages undead. I'd go by the fluff. Hmm... the fluff is vague :smallfrown:. But based on what it doesn't heal it seems to be a form of accelerated natural healing. IMO it should have no positive nor negative effect on undead, since they cannot heal by resting. But by RAW it heals them.

[Psyren]

If a high-pressure portable gas tank can not only break through cinderblock, but carve a neat little circle in it just from pure blunt force, the immovable rod would do nothing more than leave a small hole shaped like the rod.

But what happens when you place 10 of them, or 20? As they carve through the bedrock of a fortress (repeatedly in fact, as the world continues rotation) how long will it take for said fortress to be supported on swiss-cheese-lattice and crumble?

Furthermore, can I jump and then manifest Immovability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/immovability.htm) to fly against the planet's spin/burrow through rock myself?

[TuggyNE]

I think RAI is that the PEP damages undead, but it is very poorly written.

Well, yes, definitely. Fast healing is, however, entirely the wrong mechanic for that.


For lesser vigor I wouldn't necessarily say that it damages undead. I'd go by the fluff. Hmm... the fluff is vague :smallfrown:. But based on what it doesn't heal it seems to be a form of accelerated natural healing. IMO it should have no positive nor negative effect on undead, since they cannot heal by resting. But by RAW it heals them.

Actually that's not quite correct; from the undead type description:
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.

Implied is that intelligent undead can heal by resting. (And, of course, fast healing is specifically called out as working either way.)

[Spuddles]

You sir, have discovered the bases of the Tippyverse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007).

According to eponymous author Tippy, the basis of the Tippyverse is Teleportation Circle... not traps.

[Kelb_Panthera]

According to eponymous author Tippy, the basis of the Tippyverse is Teleportation Circle... not traps.

^this. The resetting food trap is just iconic, not necessary.

[tyckspoon]

According to eponymous author Tippy, the basis of the Tippyverse is Teleportation Circle... not traps.

Depends on what aspect you're thinking about. Teleportation Circles are one of the keystones of the Tippyverse, yes- they connect the world and allow for a more modern style of travel, trade, and communication. But basically the same job could be done with traps of Teleport (Greater) and Teleport Object. One of the other key parts of Tippyverse, tho, is creating a world where the basic requirements of food and shelter are no longer serious problems.. and the scale required to do that *does* require trap abuse in order to deploy effects like Endure Elements and Create Food and Water on a large order that it changes the society.

[ericgrau]

Implied is that intelligent undead can heal by resting. (And, of course, fast healing is specifically called out as working either way.)
Ah nevermind then. Lesser vigor away on the vampire. By RAW fast healing of course works on undead, and by fluff I'd say only unintelligent undead and constructs are unaffected by lesser vigor.

[willpell]

If everyone has a bulletproof forcefield, the the tellers and civilians have no reason to fear the robbers, so robbery becomes LESS profitable.

Perhaps "robbery" is the wrong word, but "theft" in general works a lot better if nobody can stop the thief through violence. You just wait for an opportunity to grab some unguarded cash and then stroll away.

[Eldariel]

Our dm usually saves things for when there already is someone like that in the party. If we don't have a trapfinder, we don't tend to run into traps. He's always been very much against the typical party roles, and usually tries to steer us away from that.

We actually just removed Trapfinding and allowed everyone to find and disable all traps. Seems to work well enough. PF did something similar, with Trapfinding giving a scaling bonus to finding/disabling traps and enabling disarming magic traps.

Which makes sense, sorta, and isn't so crippling since anybody can find those magic traps and they can be disabled through magical means even if your trapfinder can't touch them.

[willpell]

Most of our group can't wear armor (monks and spellcasters). The rest of us are limited to light armor. As a Scout, I'm limited to light armor. Can you even add armor spikes to leather armor? I always thought they could only be added to armor that was made mostly of metal.

Spiked leather (not really armor, but you can make it thicker without trouble) is a thing that exists in real life - I won't link any images since they'd get into NSFW territory fast if I wasn't careful, but I'm sure you've seen a dog collar with metal spikes that's made out of leather, it's very possible. Whether spiked Padded Clothing should work is more of a question, but it's not like anyone wears that anyway.


I'd be willing to stick to the limitations of the trapped trunks in order to gain it's benefits. Plus our DM has allready allowed trapped locks, so that's what I'm going to use.

The DMG specifically grants the DM to just say "Sorry guys, I screwed up" and then retcon his own continuity in order to remove system abuses. Though from your description, your DM may not be reasonable enough to admit such a need.

[Kansaschaser]

Spiked leather (not really armor, but you can make it thicker without trouble) is a thing that exists in real life - I won't link any images since they'd get into NSFW territory fast if I wasn't careful, but I'm sure you've seen a dog collar with metal spikes that's made out of leather, it's very possible. Whether spiked Padded Clothing should work is more of a question, but it's not like anyone wears that anyway.

I've seen enough "adult only" websites to know what you're talking about without the need for pictures. I just don't think I'm willing to spend that much money to upgrade my armor. The Monk and the Druid in our group are both on Vow of Poverty and the other three characters are under geared. We are about 1-2 levels behind on WBL(Wealth By Level). Hell, I'm level 6 and I haven't been able to afford a magic weapon yet.


The DMG specifically grants the DM to just say "Sorry guys, I screwed up" and then retcon his own continuity in order to remove system abuses. Though from your description, your DM may not be reasonable enough to admit such a need.

I'm hoping that if I show him the really broken stuff about traps, he'll finally say, "Yeah, the Runecaster seems like an okay class now."

[willpell]

I've seen enough "adult only" websites to know what you're talking about without the need for pictures. I just don't think I'm willing to spend that much money to upgrade my armor.

Yeah, the appeal of spiked masterwork studded leather is pretty "niche"; I tend to do MSL a lot because I'm allergic to armor check penalties, but this is mostly me being a little silly. Spikes on armor are a vanity item that I add to characters who are meant to seem "prickly" or are trying to make a statement about how bada** they are (usually they're either Evil or Chaotic if not both). The 50-gp pricetag has never really bothered me, even if the item is all but useless. After all, I want nearly every one of my characters to invest in Tomes of Clear Thought once they can afford the 12.5K pricetag for even a +1, let alone saving up for the higher ones since the bonus doesn't stack; compared to this the price of one masterwork tool or vial of Silversheen makes little enough difference.


The Monk and the Druid in our group are both on Vow of Poverty and the other three characters are under geared. We are about 1-2 levels behind on WBL(Wealth By Level). Hell, I'm level 6 and I haven't been able to afford a magic weapon yet.

If you're level 6 and you can't afford a +1 sword (or a quarterstaff that's +1 on one end) then you're more like 2-3 levels behind; WBL for level 6 is 13,000 gp, and a +1 weapon is less than 3000, so you can afford it by level 3 if you don't buy anything else. If two of the characters are Vow of Poverty (and just so you know, Monks are not the best characters for VoP purposes, as it leaves him unable to get things like an Amulet of Mighty Fists which make up for some of his weaknesses; technically the Druid also suffers because VoP doesn't allow the use of a holy symbol, even if it's a 0-gp spring of plant, but it's pretty widely agreed that this is probably an oversight).

[Kansaschaser]

If you're level 6 and you can't afford a +1 sword (or a quarterstaff that's +1 on one end) then you're more like 2-3 levels behind; WBL for level 6 is 13,000 gp, and a +1 weapon is less than 3000, so you can afford it by level 3 if you don't buy anything else. If two of the characters are Vow of Poverty (and just so you know, Monks are not the best characters for VoP purposes, as it leaves him unable to get things like an Amulet of Mighty Fists which make up for some of his weaknesses; technically the Druid also suffers because VoP doesn't allow the use of a holy symbol, even if it's a 0-gp spring of plant, but it's pretty widely agreed that this is probably an oversight).

For expensive items, I've got:

Handy Haversack
Ring of Sustenance
Everlasting Feedbag (for horse)
Light War Horse
Leather Barding + Saddle
Masterwork Greatbow
Nightscale+1 Armor
Plethora of Arrows

This has taken most of my money. Last game session I had around 1,900 gold saved up. I'm now down to 1,100 gold because I had to purchase things we needed for our next adventure (plot items such as Unicorn Blood).

Oh, and we have to have EVERYTHING custom made. There are no stores where you can purchase readily made magic items(even though we are in a Metropolis). So I had to go a day without armor. In that 24 hour period, we ended up in 3 seperate battles.

If I hand my Masterwork Greatbow over to be enchanted with just a +1, I would have to wait 2 days. The DM would have to be very nice and not throw combat our way, which I doubt he would do.

[Deepbluediver]

For expensive items, I've got:
Oh, and we have to have EVERYTHING custom made. There are no stores where you can purchase readily made magic items(even though we are in a Metropolis).

Most of the DMs I've played ran their campaign world this way (they pretty much all learned how from the same guy, so hence the similarities). Loot was either given as specific items, or we had to track down some one who could make us what we wanted.

On the other hand since we mostly traded favors for gear it didn't feel quite so crippling. I've never been a fan of the "choose to spend your last gold piece on either arrows or food" type of advanture, so I can understand where your situation could be less enjoyable.