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View Full Version : [3.5] Feat: Art of the Draw (PEACH?)



Adamantrue
2012-09-28, 09:59 AM
Normally, I would post a better initial draft of a Feat idea, and fish for some feedback. However, I've been a little burnt out for a bit due to work (with little hope for relief in the near future), and it seems to be clouding my creativity & concentration.

Its a Feat idea specifically meant for the CW Samurai (a Class I never thought I'd want to pay attention to), though other Classes could pick it up if they choose. This is meant to be inspired by Katana Draw Strikes and certain Samurai films/shows, but I don't think the game is capable of reflecting the reality with much accuracy, and not what I'm shooting for.
Art of the Draw [Tactical]
Your draw and strike is one fluid, deadly move.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +8, Intimidate 10 ranks, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), Improved Initiative, Quick Draw
Benefit: This feat allows the use of three tactical maneuvers, each of which requires the use of a katana (bastard sword).
Frightful Kiai: Your focus and confidence is inherently unnerving, and a single action can push an opponent over the edge. To use this maneuver, you must draw your katana and use it to make a successful melee attack in the same round. If you do, you may attempt to demoralize that opponent as a move action before the end of the round.
Wake the Sleeping Sword: Your draw and strike with the katana is one swift and powerful motion. To use this maneuver, you must make a full attack in the same round you draw your katana. If you do, the first attack deals triple normal damage. You may only wield the katana with one hand when making this first strike, and all remaining attacks (if any) are resolved as normal.
Clean the Blade: To use this maneuver, you must have initiated a duel of wills (Tome of Battle p27) during the encounter, and landed the attack that drops the chosen opponent. After that strike, as an immediate action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, you may sheathe your katana and initiate a new duel of wills against a different opponent. Note that an opponent's initiative is not altered in any way if they choose to submit.
Special: A fighter may select Art of the Draw as one of his bonus feats.
A samurai's Iaijutsu Master ability counts as Quick Draw the purpose of qualifying for this feat. An 8th level samurai may select Art of the Draw as his bonus feat if he gained Improved Initiative at an earlier level. Former Version
Art of the Draw [Tactical]
The first strike of your blade is often the last you'll need.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +8(?), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), Improved Initiative, Quick Draw
Benefit: This feat allows the use of three tactical maneuvers, each of which requires the use of a katana (bastard sword).
Insert Name 1 Here: After a successful melee attack with the katana, you may immediately sheathe your blade. This requires no action, does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity, and you may even do so when it is not your turn (such as after having made an Attack of Opportunity).
Insert Name 2 Here: Your draw and strike with the katana is one fluid, precise motion. The attack made immediately after you draw deals triple normal damage. You may only wield the katana with one hand when making this strike, and any remaining attacks (if any) are resolved as normal.
Insert Name 3 Here: Your instincts and practice brings your blade to bear as swift as a thought. You may draw your katana as an Immediate Action.
Special: A fighter may select Art of the Draw as one of his bonus feats.
A samurai with Iaijutsu Master and Improved Initiative qualifies for this feat. An 8th level samurai may select Art of the Draw as his bonus feat if he gained Improved Initiative at an earlier level. This looks rough, even with the way its worded. I'm not entirely sure these abilities are the best use of the idea either (maybe a method of making the opponent flat-footed, stunned, or dazed for example).

Ideas?

Kyuu Himura
2012-09-28, 05:43 PM
I'm not sure about the second option, it's better than the Ruby Nightmare blade (I don't know if that's intended) and you can do it every round. The other 2 are okay, I guess.

Lateral
2012-09-28, 09:05 PM
Umm, this lets you get triple damage on all attacks. That's probably a bad idea.

Kyuu Himura
2012-09-28, 09:57 PM
nah nah, triple damage on one attack every turn, not as bad as triple damage on all attacks ever, but still kinda bad.

Cieyrin
2012-09-28, 11:34 PM
How are Option 1 and 2 supposed to interact, exactly? You can freely sheathe after any attack and you deal triple damage after drawing and striking, so I'm not seeing how you're limited by it. Triple damage on every attack (+1 AoO, thanks to Option 3) seems to be happening. Seems a bit like overkill and not exactly in the spirit of samurai movies, novels and games, in which they make a deliberate sheathe before a major strike for that finishing move, which this doesn't really illustrate. Not to mention poor interactions with Iaijutsu Focus getting more damage. I'd...limit the number of times you can use some of these maneuvers or refactor quite a bit.

SamBurke
2012-09-28, 11:38 PM
This looks like you're designing a super-combo for the thing: unsheathe, murderize, re-sheathe. Rinse, dry, re-murder.

LordErebus12
2012-09-29, 12:24 AM
I'm not sure about the second option, it's better than the Ruby Nightmare blade (I don't know if that's intended) and you can do it every round. The other 2 are okay, I guess.

option 1: fine, but quick draw already allows this to happen whenever you want.

option 2: perhaps you roll damage three times, taking the best of the three rolls.

Option 3: abused far too easily (with combination of options 1 and 2, plus quick draw)

also, noting that quick draw stacks, allowing you to draw weapon, attack for x3 damage, then sheath weapon. this also allows it to happen on AoO's.

Honestly, i wouldnt allow it as written. far to easy to abuse.

with a mid level build: each round i could charge, dealing about 6d10+210 damage before multiplying it by x3 because of this feat. sickening, to be frank.

Terazul
2012-09-29, 12:50 AM
Edit:
option 1: fine, but quick draw already allows this to happen whenever you want.
Nu uh. Quick Draw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickDraw) lets you draw as a free action. Nothing about sheathing.

To clarify, the reason people are saying "You get triple damage on every attack" is the fact that [1] Lets you sheathe your weapon as a free action if you hit. [2], lets you deal triple damage after you draw your weapon. You seem to have written this with the intent on the first attack you perform after drawing gets the damage, and then to pull it off again, you use the third tactical to draw it again. What you forget, is that in your prerequisites you have Quick Draw... which lets you draw your weapon as a free action anyway.

So you could, in fact, just charge at someone with pounce, Draw [Quick Draw], Attack for ludicrous amounts of damage [2], Sheathe [1], and then Draw again [Quick Draw] for the second attack, and so on. You only need the third ability for Attacks of Opportunity. To put in line with what you're going for, you made want to add a benefit from the damage once per turn kinda dealy.

LordErebus12
2012-09-29, 01:08 AM
Edit:
Nu uh. Quick Draw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickDraw) lets you draw as a free action. Nothing about sheathing.


Drawing and sheathing a blade requires the same effort and time, ive never considered those actions any different, but if you must really consider them different actions, that is fine with me.

Either way, i believe the abilities the feat (as written) grants are far too powerful for just one feat to grant (despite the prerequisites).

DracoDei
2012-09-29, 02:22 AM
Note that option 1 requires you to HIT. If you miss you have a problem. I agree it is still overpowered, but at least there is SOME limitation.

Ammutseba
2012-09-29, 06:24 AM
It would be substantially easier if option 2 just provided a bonus to an iaijutsu focus check. +10, for instance. Substantial, enough to add two dice, but not nearly as game changing as triple damage.

Terazul
2012-09-29, 07:34 AM
Drawing and sheathing a blade requires the same effort and time, ive never considered those actions any different, but if you must really consider them different actions, that is fine with me.
Not me deciding that or making a ruling. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#draworSheatheaWeapon) That's simply just the way it works. One provokes an AoO, the other doesn't, etc etc.


It would be substantially easier if option 2 just provided a bonus to an iaijutsu focus check. +10, for instance. Substantial, enough to add two dice, but not nearly as game changing as triple damage.

Probably a good idea. Plus, it's tactical in that it doesn't always apply; Still requires that you get the target flat-footed somehow. Usually the tactical feats have a small bit of synergy with each other, (the third one is still p. good if you're focusing on Iaijutsu) but usually not a combo in and of itself.

Cieyrin
2012-09-29, 09:23 AM
It would be substantially easier if option 2 just provided a bonus to an iaijutsu focus check. +10, for instance. Substantial, enough to add two dice, but not nearly as game changing as triple damage.


Probably a good idea. Plus, it's tactical in that it doesn't always apply; Still requires that you get the target flat-footed somehow. Usually the tactical feats have a small bit of synergy with each other, (the third one is still p. good if you're focusing on Iaijutsu) but usually not a combo in and of itself.

I don't think this is written with Iaijutsu Focus in mind, given it's working with CW Samurai, not OA Samurai.

And I did miss that you need to hit to make with the resheath at no action cost, so I suppose that does limit it somewhat. Still, I think Option 2 should definitely be 1/rd or something similar to prevent multiblade madness or similar.

Ashtagon
2012-09-29, 09:48 AM
Drawing and sheathing a blade requires the same effort and time, ive never considered those actions any different, but if you must really consider them different actions, that is fine with me...

Sheathing a blade does require a bit more care than drawing it. Unless of course you don't might the risk of accidentally sheathing it in your thigh...

Adamantrue
2012-09-30, 04:35 PM
OK, I just broke out my copy of Oriental Adventures (haven't used it in a while), and refreshed my memory on the Iaijutsu Duels.

Focusing on the 2nd ability...

I didn't intend for the Feat to allow you to constantly sheathe & redraw with each iterative attack. Honestly, it didn't even occur to me that it was an option, no matter how obvious it is to me now that it's been pointed out.

If I were to state that you could only do this to each opponent once per encounter, would that mitigate the problem enough? It would match my intentions more, and I think it would compare much better against Ruby Nightmare Blade (x3 Power Attack returns VS probable x4).

I also do want a rules clarification. Things like Power Attack or Weapon Specialization would be included whenever damage is multiplied (such as a Critical Hit, Mounted Lance Charge, or Ruby Nightmare Blade), but bonus damage dice (such as from Sneak Attack, various ToB Strikes, or Iaijutsu checks) are not, correct?

Cieyrin
2012-09-30, 05:23 PM
If I were to state that you could only do this to each opponent once per encounter, would that mitigate the problem enough? It would match my intentions more, and I think it would compare much better against Ruby Nightmare Blade (x3 Power Attack returns VS probable x4).

Probably pretty safe that way. Perhaps weaker than a maneuver now but safer.


I also do want a rules clarification. Things like Power Attack or Weapon Specialization would be included whenever damage is multiplied (such as a Critical Hit, Mounted Lance Charge, or Ruby Nightmare Blade), but bonus damage dice (such as from Sneak Attack, various ToB Strikes, or Iaijutsu checks) are not, correct?

Bonus dice are never multiplied. Only flat bonuses are.

Adamantrue
2012-10-01, 08:47 PM
You know, the more I think about it, the more I think that the x3 damage isn't the problem (even if you do it multiple times against the same opponent during an encounter), its the free sheathing of the blade.

All else being equal, its possible to pull off Ruby Nightmare Blade every-other round, and you can get x4 Power Attack returns each time (with something interesting to do in between I'm sure).

Taking the free sheathing out of the equation, you could Quick Draw, strike, take a 5 ft step, and re-sheathe the blade every round for x3 Power Attack returns. It'd be a bit much, but it'd be relatively in-line with the Maneuver (gets a little foggy with enhancement bonuses & such, but in the ballpark).

You also couldn't combo them off each other with drastic results, the way multipliers work & the fact that the Feat explicitly states a 1-handed swing, you'd still end up with only a x4 to Power Attack (though you still get a minor overall boost with weapon damage, enhancement bonuses & such).

Leap Attack would get pretty much the same results, since it increases the Power Attack damage only & you're limited to 1-handed strikes.

I suppose the worst thing that could happen is if they carry multiple katanas, dropping the one they are holding & drawing a new one for each iterative attack or an AoO. Is the wording of Option 2 ambiguous enough to make this a possibility RAW, or is the "and any remaining attacks (if any) are resolved as normal" part prevent this? How should it be cleaned up to make it clearer?

Adamantrue
2012-10-02, 10:16 AM
Art of the Draw [Tactical]
The first strike of your blade is often the last you'll need.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +8(?), Intimidate 10(?) ranks, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), Improved Initiative, Quick Draw
Benefit: This feat allows the use of three tactical maneuvers, each of which requires the use of a katana (bastard sword).
Frightful Kiai: Your focus and confidence is inherently unnerving, and a single action can push an opponent over the edge. If you draw your katana and immediately use it to make a successful melee attack, you may attempt to demoralize that opponent as a Move Action.
Wake the Sleeping Sword: Your draw and strike with the katana is one fluid and powerful motion. When making a full attack immediately after you draw your katana, the first attack deals triple normal damage. You may only wield the katana with one hand when making this first strike, and all remaining attacks (if any) are resolved as normal.
Clean the Blade: To use this maneuver, you must have initiated a Duel of Wills (Tome of Battle p27) during the encounter, and landed the attack that drops the chosen opponent. After that strike as an Immediate Action, you may sheathe your katana and initiate a new Duel of Wills against a different opponent. Note that an opponent's initiative is not altered in any way if they choose to submit.
Special: A fighter may select Art of the Draw as one of his bonus feats.
A samurai's Iaijutsu Master ability counts as Quick Draw the purpose of qualifying for this feat. An 8th level samurai may select Art of the Draw as his bonus feat if he gained Improved Initiative at an earlier level. Trying to step away from what I thought were minor abilities, these seem like more interesting maneuvers. I'm also trying to be more careful, concerning the wording and possible abuse. I still don't think x3 damage would be overpowered, after removing an inherent ability to "machine gun" draw strikes in a single round, or even do them in back-to-back rounds thanks to the feat alone. I suppose you could still do it every round if you carried multiple katanas, or burned Move Actions with a Belt of Battle.

This work better?

DracoDei
2012-10-02, 01:35 PM
To prevent the machine-gunning, you might put some 1/round limits on there. Of course, the re-sheath is flavorful, and what is really needed is a 1/round limit on the iajatsu skill (if one is using that, this may need to intended to be INSTEAD of that).

Adamantrue
2012-10-02, 02:02 PM
I thought the Iaijutsu Focus skill effectively had a once-per-encounter limit (barring shenanigans (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186283)), as it only deals additional damage against a flat-footed opponent?

Does the way its worded now still allow more than one x3 strike in a round? I thought specifically stating the first strike in a full attack would solve that problem. Dag nabbit...

Terazul
2012-10-02, 03:41 PM
I thought the Iaijutsu Focus skill effectively had a once-per-encounter limit (barring shenanigans (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186283)), as it only deals additional damage against a flat-footed opponent?
There are numerous ways to make someone flatfooted after initiative has been run through. Like Grease! Or Marbles. And so on.

DaTedinator
2012-10-02, 03:44 PM
I think with the current changes it seems fine. It's clean and flavorful, and I can't think of any ways to break it that aren't already inherently cheesy (though I'm admittedly not the most well-informed when it comes to breaking melee).

Adamantrue
2012-10-02, 05:41 PM
There are numerous ways to make someone flatfooted after initiative has been run through. Like Grease! Or Marbles. And so on. Well, you could do the same thing with Iaijutsu Focus, Spirited Charge, and Quick Drawing Lances. It could actually be worse there, as you can two-hand a Lance for x6 Power Attack returns. Shenanigans...

I suppose I should specify whether or not Clean the Blade provokes an AoO. And Wake the Sleeping Sword, that wording still seems sloppy. Need a go-ahead on the Prerequisites too.

Adamantrue
2012-10-06, 01:27 PM
Cool, the Forum is back up. Back to work...
Art of the Draw [Tactical]
Your draw and strike is one fluid, deadly move.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +8, Intimidate 10 ranks, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), Improved Initiative, Quick Draw
Benefit: This feat allows the use of three tactical maneuvers, each of which requires the use of a katana (bastard sword).
Frightful Kiai: Your focus and confidence is inherently unnerving, and a single action can push an opponent over the edge. To use this maneuver, you must draw your katana and use it to make a successful melee attack in the same round. If you do, you may attempt to demoralize that opponent as a move action before the end of the round.
Wake the Sleeping Sword: Your draw and strike with the katana is one swift and powerful motion. To use this maneuver, you must make a full attack in the same round you draw your katana. If you do, the first attack deals triple normal damage. You may only wield the katana with one hand when making this first strike, and all remaining attacks (if any) are resolved as normal.
Clean the Blade: To use this maneuver, you must have initiated a duel of wills (Tome of Battle p27) during the encounter, and landed the attack that drops the chosen opponent. After that strike, as an immediate action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, you may sheathe your katana and initiate a new duel of wills against a different opponent. Note that an opponent's initiative is not altered in any way if they choose to submit.
Special: A fighter may select Art of the Draw as one of his bonus feats.
A samurai's Iaijutsu Master ability counts as Quick Draw the purpose of qualifying for this feat. An 8th level samurai may select Art of the Draw as his bonus feat if he gained Improved Initiative at an earlier level. Cleaned up the wording a little bit more. I'd considered letting you use Wake the Sleeping Sword on a Charge in addition to a Full Attack, but Shock Trooper/Leap Attack shenanigans would make that entirely too potent.

Any last observations about the Feat as-is, good or bad?

Cieyrin
2012-10-06, 02:23 PM
Looking pretty good, though if you want to clean it up a bit more, you may wish to add the Fighter tag to the feat name, which'll save you space in the Special section explaining that.

DracoDei
2012-10-06, 06:29 PM
Looking pretty good, though if you want to clean it up a bit more, you may wish to add the Fighter tag to the feat name, which'll save you space in the Special section explaining that.
I THINK it is traditional to do it both places, but you would be better off asking my loyal nemesis Debihuman about that.

Adamantrue
2012-10-06, 07:19 PM
Going by Complete Warrior, PH2, and ToB, it looked like the Fighter tag was dropped in favor of the line at the end. Even the Player's Handbook didn't have the tag listed.