A Few Crit Questions

[ColossusCrusher]

So, my group just started a new 3.5 campaign and I rolled up a critfish (the thread looking for build advice is somewhere in the archive here). Both my DM and I were a bit curious about a few interactions:

Does Lightning Mace's critical threat bonus attack apply to things that are immune to crit or enchanted by Fortification? So if I were to roll a 16 (Keen Kukris FTW) against a zombie, would I get a bonus attack?

Does Blood in the Water stance gain stacks against crit-immune enemies? Would I roll to confirm, not add bonus crit damage but add a stack for later, or just not get stacks period? How would immunity to criticals be different from Fortification in this regard?

Does the untyped bonus from BitW stacks get multiplied by crits? It's an untyped bonus, and I know that the XdY+Z formula is multiplied (which is why Collision gets crit bonuses), but I'm unsure about the stacks. As an aside, would Strike of Perfect Clarity or other such direct enhancements to damage (the +100 damage Iron Heart strike) be multiplied?

[HunterOfJello]

So, my group just started a new 3.5 campaign and I rolled up a critfish (the thread looking for build advice is somewhere in the archive here). Both my DM and I were a bit curious about a few interactions:

Does Lightning Mace's critical threat bonus attack apply to things that are immune to crit or enchanted by Fortification? So if I were to roll a 16 (Keen Kukris FTW) against a zombie, would I get a bonus attack?

I'm not completely sure on this one. Lightning Maces may be an exception to the ordinary rules on this because Lighning Maces adds an extra attack when you roll a Threat, not a critical hit. Whether you can threaten an enemy who is immune to critical hits, I dunno.


Does Blood in the Water stance gain stacks against crit-immune enemies? Would I roll to confirm, not add bonus crit damage but add a stack for later, or just not get stacks period? How would immunity to criticals be different from Fortification in this regard?

Blood in the Water doesn't work if you didn't critically hit the enemy. You can't critically hit an enemy who is immune to crits. Ergo, you can't use blood in the water on enemies immune to critical hits. I'm not sure if Fortification has different rules.


Does the untyped bonus from BitW stacks get multiplied by crits? It's an untyped bonus, and I know that the XdY+Z formula is multiplied (which is why Collision gets crit bonuses), but I'm unsure about the stacks. As an aside, would Strike of Perfect Clarity or other such direct enhancements to damage (the +100 damage Iron Heart strike) be multiplied?

I think the exact definition of what is and isn't multiplied has changed over time. The Rules Compendium says that "Extra damage isn't multiplied" while the SRD says that "extra damage dice" aren't multiplied. I believe that the most current source is the SRD itself.

As a rule if damage is expressed in dice it is not multiplied. If it is expressed as a nonvariable number, then it is. Therefore, BitW would get multiplied.

HOWEVER, there is an exception to this for Strikes specifically. ToB says on page 43 that, "you do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a
successful critical hit". So, BitW would get multiplied since it is a stnce, but Strike of Perfect Clarity would not because it is a strike.

[BowStreetRunner]

Blood in the Water doesn't work if you didn't critically hit the enemy. You can't critically hit an enemy who is immune to crits. Ergo, you can't use blood in the water on enemies immune to critical hits. I'm not sure if Fortification has different rules.

Just keep in mind that if you are fighting a mixed group of opponents - some enemies who are immune to crits and some who are not - that while you cannot raise the Blood in the Water bonus by making attacks against immune enemies, any bonus you have due to scoring crits against non-immune enemies still applies against both immune and non-immune enemies.

[Curmudgeon]

I think the exact definition of what is and isn't multiplied has changed over time. The Rules Compendium says that "Extra damage isn't multiplied" while the SRD says that "extra damage dice" aren't multiplied.
No, the definition has never changed in 3.5 D&D. Here's what Rules Compendium says on page 17:
Sometimes damage is multiplied, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage dice and add all modifiers multiple times. Total the results. Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage, such as those dealt by precision damage abilities (see page 42), are never multiplied. (That matches what Player's Handbook says on page 134.) Non-dice bonuses to damage (STR modifier, numeric weapon enhancements, Knowledge Devotion bonus, Craven sneak attack bonus, & c.) are all multiplied.

[HunterOfJello]

No, the definition has never changed in 3.5 D&D. Here's what Rules Compendium says on page 17: (That matches what Player's Handbook says on page 134.) Non-dice bonuses to damage (STR modifier, numeric weapon enhancements, Knowledge Devotion bonus, Craven sneak attack bonus, & c.) are all multiplied.

I misspoke. It hasn't changed. It was never absolutely clear which of the two definitions was correct since the books were internally inconsistent.



"Exception: Bonus damage over and above a weapon’s normal
damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, is not multiplied when you score a critical hit."



"Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal
damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, are never multiplied."



"Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage, such as those dealt by precision damage abilities (see page 42), are never multiplied."



"Extra damage beyond a weapon’s normal damage, such as that dealt by precision damage abilities (see page 42) or the f laming property of a f laming sword, isn’t multiplied when you score a critical hit."



Both the PHB and Rules Compendium cite "extra damage" and "extra damage dice" as not qualifying based on which page and section of the book you read.

[BowStreetRunner]

I misspoke. It hasn't changed. It was never absolutely clear which of the two definitions was correct since the books were internally inconsistent.

Both the PHB and Rules Compendium cite "extra damage" and "extra damage dice" as not qualifying based on which page and section of the book you read.

Note that where they state "Bonus Damage" or "Extra Damage" instead of "Extra Damage Dice" the examples they list (sneak attack, flaming sword, precision damage) all refer to effects that add extra damage dice, not merely extra points of damage. I agree that they should have stated Damage Dice however.