Druid advices needed!

[Kalegkos]

Hello dear giant forum :smallcool:

Looong time no see. Anyhow i would like some advise on a druid issue i am having. I play a 15 level druid. Actually 7 level druid and 8 level summoner, from the Relics and Rituals book.

I just feel that druid as summoner is not what i was expecting and i am not that excited. So i want to search from the beginning the druid and know more things about the gameplay, options and advices. What i'm asking is : What do you think of druid as class and if you were given a 15th level druid what would you do with him, stay just a druid? Get a prestige? A thing i hear often is that druids are one of the classes that don't even need a prestige.. I'm bit confused.. ((Books allowed 100% are the core 3.5 books+Complete Divine. Others i have to ask my DM first)).

Thnx for spending some time viewing my thread and i'm even more thankfull for some answers :smallbiggrin: All have a great day!

[theUnearther]

Answer would depend on what you want out of your druid, so forgive me if I speculate on that.

But first, it is said that druids don't need no stinkin' prestiges because they are STRONG on their own. For comparison, the other two first tiers in the core rules, wizard and cleric, don't get any class feature worth mentioning.
A cleric's turn undead is ridiculously useful, but since you don't get any more daily uses out of more levels, it cannot be a consideration for staying in the class.
A wizard's feats are either metamagic or item creation. If you wanted metamagic there are better classes to get it from. If you wanted item creation, that only really helps you if your game master is somewhat open to custom items, and in that case you can just take two feats, wands and some non-consumable, and live with the extra cost for breaking slot affinity.
The druid, on the other hand, has three features that it hurts to lose, and they are very rarely all advanced by the same prestige class.
But this all only matters if you are what the forums (not just this one) call an optimizer. You do not have to be one, it is not even better to be one; but thanks to the nature of the internet, most people in all forums ARE, and you'll see a lot of advice/opinions tailored to that segment of the fandom. You just need to learn how to ignore it or, preferably, take what you need out of it.

That said, if you ARE trying to be an optimizer, the prestige you want is called Planar Shepherd. It's the only one I've seen named as actually improving on a pure druid. Not sure where it's from, I thought it was in core but it's not in the SRD.

On the other hand, if you went for summoning because you thought it would be cool to summon things, I'm going to semi-recommend the Malconvoker. It's probably from Fiend Folio or one of the Fiendish Codices.
It's a class that must be good and its whole gimmick is summoning fiends and other inherently evil creatures, and tricking them or forcing them to work for good. So it can have the potential to rekindle your love for summoning things.
Don't get me wrong, taking levels in this class will make you weaker, in several ways I don't recall offhand; but if you are the kind of player that can live with that, and who already expressed an interest in summoning things, then you may like it.

Now, two predictions.
First, someone will come chew me for having recommended the malconvoker. I dealt with that above, and am technically doing so here, but chances are it will happen still. Either you agree or disagree with them, in either case you can just ignore it. It neither adds nor detracts from my point, taken as a whole.
Second, somebody will likely come recommend the Summoner from pathfinder. I have not read it but I hear it's quite good. However, it is a base class, which would mean scrapping your character and starting a new one. That's why I did not recommend it.

And two questions.
What exactly is it about summoning that failed to live up to your expectations? It'd be easier to help you fix your problem if we know what your problem IS.
And, what does your relics and rituals summoner give you? It may open other options that I'm not aware of, but which may interest you.

[Kalegkos]

Answer would depend on what you want out of your druid, so forgive me if I speculate on that.

But first, it is said that druids don't need no stinkin' prestiges because they are STRONG on their own. For comparison, the other two first tiers in the core rules, wizard and cleric, don't get any class feature worth mentioning.
A cleric's turn undead is ridiculously useful, but since you don't get any more daily uses out of more levels, it cannot be a consideration for staying in the class.
A wizard's feats are either metamagic or item creation. If you wanted metamagic there are better classes to get it from. If you wanted item creation, that only really helps you if your game master is somewhat open to custom items, and in that case you can just take two feats, wands and some non-consumable, and live with the extra cost for breaking slot affinity.
The druid, on the other hand, has three features that it hurts to lose, and they are very rarely all advanced by the same prestige class.
But this all only matters if you are what the forums (not just this one) call an optimizer. You do not have to be one, it is not even better to be one; but thanks to the nature of the internet, most people in all forums ARE, and you'll see a lot of advice/opinions tailored to that segment of the fandom. You just need to learn how to ignore it or, preferably, take what you need out of it.

That said, if you ARE trying to be an optimizer, the prestige you want is called Planar Shepherd. It's the only one I've seen named as actually improving on a pure druid. Not sure where it's from, I thought it was in core but it's not in the SRD.

On the other hand, if you went for summoning because you thought it would be cool to summon things, I'm going to semi-recommend the Malconvoker. It's probably from Fiend Folio or one of the Fiendish Codices.
It's a class that must be good and its whole gimmick is summoning fiends and other inherently evil creatures, and tricking them or forcing them to work for good. So it can have the potential to rekindle your love for summoning things.
Don't get me wrong, taking levels in this class will make you weaker, in several ways I don't recall offhand; but if you are the kind of player that can live with that, and who already expressed an interest in summoning things, then you may like it.

Now, two predictions.
First, someone will come chew me for having recommended the malconvoker. I dealt with that above, and am technically doing so here, but chances are it will happen still. Either you agree or disagree with them, in either case you can just ignore it. It neither adds nor detracts from my point, taken as a whole.
Second, somebody will likely come recommend the Summoner from pathfinder. I have not read it but I hear it's quite good. However, it is a base class, which would mean scrapping your character and starting a new one. That's why I did not recommend it.

And two questions.
What exactly is it about summoning that failed to live up to your expectations? It'd be easier to help you fix your problem if we know what your problem IS.
And, what does your relics and rituals summoner give you? It may open other options that I'm not aware of, but which may interest you.


I saw a wizard being a summoner, not the prestige just the way of play, and we could summon tons of big things in a round. I just rethought about the whole summoning thing. First of all the bonuses that the prestige gave me weren't that good to abandon the druidic ways. Low hp and saves. Druid on the other way has a respectable hp, good saves and some features that rock. The wild shapes, the immunity, the thousand faces, THE COMPANION!!!!!! and the "no aging effects". My companion right now is 7hd. My party is fighting CR20+, my panther can do nothing to them. So if i change to druid i can get him to 15hd with tricks and feats and make him a proper damage dealer.

The main problem is, should i just try a core druid? With a couple of summon feats so i can still have the joys of summoning? Hmmm..

The RR summoner gives you a Summon Natures Ally, depends on the level you choose him, for example i got him when i was doing Summon V. So a summon V would come as Summon VI but only for the type the Summoner's Patron is. Mine was a fire elemental so only fire creatures would come this way. Also the prestige gives you metamagic feats which you can ONLY apply on the summons that come 1 level higher. I don't know if you get my point :smalltongue:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Listed in order of importance, if you don't have any of the top three then you're doing it wrong:

1. Ring of the Beast in Complete Champion, lets you treat any Summon Nature's Ally you cast as though it was the next level higher version.

2. Greenbound Summoning feat, Lost Empires of Faerun. Gives any animals you summon the Greenbound Creature template from that same book, which makes it a plant creature with tons of benefits (DR, fast healing, natural armor and ability score bonuses, Wall of Thorns and Entangle spell-like abilities).

3. Ashbound feat, Eberron Campaign Setting. Makes your summon spells last twice as long, and gives your summoned creatures a +3 luck bonus on attack rolls.

4. Rashemi Elemental Summoning feat, Unapproachable East. Gives your summoned elementals the Orglash and Thomil templates from that same book, which adds some decent benefits and abilities (Engulf).

5. Augment Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#augmentSummoning), self-explanatory.

6. Imbued Summoning feat, PH2, plus Metamagic School Focus, CM. Not exactly great, but it can be useful. Note that if you imbue a single-target spell and summon multiple creatures they'll all still benefit from it.

[Gwynfrid]

Having experienced a bit (not much) with druid as summoner I can only say I always was very happy with it. The flexibility you gain from choosing your summoned creatures according to circumstances is invaluable. For example, say your wizard friend packs a punch with his fireballs, so the DM sends you opponents who are immune to fire. No problem for you, you have earth elementals at your disposal. Flying opponents ? You have that covered. Mind flayers are mind blasting the party to bits ? Just summon some giant vermin. Enemy is very mobile ? Creatures with Improved Grab will fix it for you. The bastards go invisible ? Tremor sense is the answer. Etc. With the same, good old spell, you can respond to a wide variety of threats.

The other benefit is tactical: Summoned creatures appear at the position you designate and attack immediately. Obviously, that means you can give them the advantage of flanking as soon as they show up. In addition, you can place them in a position to charge. Here goes the pouncing dire lion...

Of course you need the minimum package of Augment Summoning (Superior Summoning is great if you're playing Pathfinder). And, when summoning animals, a couple of animal-targeting buffs will give you a great bang for the buck. But I guess with your experience you know that already.

In my opinion, the reason you ran in trouble with your Druid 7 - Summoner 8 is, quite simply, multiclassing. That combo gives you lots and lots of spells, but severely reduces your caster level and the maximum level of spells you can cast. For example, you can't cast Animal Growth after you have called a bunch of animals to help. Even more importantly, at level 15, only having a 4th level summons in your arsenal is a major weakness: You will often need to call either a level 8 creature, or more likely, 1d3 level 7 creatures, which is a better option 66% of the time.

So my recommendation is, stick with full Druid with all 15 levels, pick your creatures with care and boost them with a few well-chosen spells. If your colleagues in the party have buff spells that target the group, ask them to include your summoned allies, they certainly can afford it (haste will do wonders for you). Don't bother with prestige classes until you have at least tried the regular version.

Good luck !

[Gandariel]

If you wanna be a summoner druid, the ones above me gave you great advice.

Anyway you asked a general question, and i'll try to answer, generally.

Druid is a very, very strong class.

The animal companion is, at first level, as strong as a level 1 fighter.
And it gets way better. There are some great forms (fleshraker dinosaur, Dire eagle).
And most of all, you can cast buffs on yourself and have your pet benefit from them too.

Then there's Wildshape.
Which is pretty awesome, you become a really strong monster capable of fighting on your own.
Cast your buffs on yourself (sharing them with your animal) and kill everything.

And, you get spellcasting, which is your most powerful ability.

Druid can specialize in summoning and battlefield control, or wildshape and buff himself and his companion and fight in melee.

There are PrCs focusing on all three of their main abilities, but most of them don't advance the other two, so they're often not worth it.

The strongest PrC for Druid is called Planar Shepherd, and it's so strong that it's usually banned (it allows you to take ten times as many turns as your enemies, for example)
The other often banned thing is the spell Venomfire, which cast as a buff allows for tens of d6s of acid damage per round.

[Gavinfoxx]

You don't HAVE to choose a prestige class for Druid to be a good summoner and have an army.

In fact, it would probably be better that you didn't.

Because you really, really, really, do not want to ever NOT advance:

1.) Wild Shape
2.) Spells
3.) Animal Companion

The Relics and Rituals (which is 3rd party by the way, and generally not discussed on these boards) Summoner? Here is what it advances of the three pillars that makes up Druid:

1.) Spells

Sooo... yea, it definitely makes you weaker. I don't believe it even gets you any metamagic mitagation. Ugh. Retrain or do a Rebuilding Quest (Players Handbook II) to Druid 15.

If you want to summon primarily, here are good feats for you as a level 15 Druid:

Augment Summoning
Ashbound
Rashemi Elemental Summoning
Imbued Summoning
Beckon the Frozen

Remember, a Druid gets:

Summon Nature's Ally
Summon Desert Ally
Conjure Ice Beast

which is PLENTY of summoning!

Anyway, here's the Druid Handbook:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0

And here are some druid extended character sheets to look at:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/17bYfVxcXM8uKmxtQAOHgKN7MNchvqcMw31R-k-NPrTw/edit?authkey=CLWf4ugH&authkey=CLWf4ugH

https://docs.google.com/document/d/10hPKysfPfo7accd5y4SKSa8yGLmrjPHEY99ujPJ83a4/edit

Remember, by level 15, there is no reason to NOT be (say) a Grizzly Mastodon (Monster Manual II) at all times! After all, there is a ton of equipment that works in animal form and can let you communicate in animal form (some of them even let your animals talk to the party). And there are ways to get THREE animals from class features and feats following you at all times (Animal Companion, Wild Cohort, Rebuked animal via Initiate of Nature), which is already a good start to an army...

[Gavinfoxx]

Just as an example... if you are a Druid who focuses near 100% on summoning... here are the stats of a creature that you could have been summoning at level 15, with NO CLASS LEVELS OTHER THAN DRUID.

Ashbound, Augment Summoning, Orglash, Beckon the Frozen, Greater Storm Elemental
Requires 1 level 8 slot
Creature lasts 30 rounds (10 rounds = 1 minute)

Ashbound Augmented Beckoned Greater Storm Orglash
Size/Type: Huge Elemental (Air, Cold)
Hit Dice: 21d8+210 (304 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares), fly 100 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 24 (–2 size, +16 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 24
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+36
Attack: Slam +29 melee (3d6+13 plus 2d6 electricity plus 2d6 cold plus 1d3 cold)
Full Attack: 2 slams +29 melee (3d6+13 plus 2d6 electricity plus 2d6 cold plus 1d3 cold)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Shock, thunder and lightning, Cone of Cold 3/day
Special Qualities: Air mastery, damage reduction 5/–, darkvision 60 ft., electrical and sonic healing, elemental traits, Fast Healing, Native Elemental
Saves: Fort +17, Ref +14, Will +7
Abilities: Str 36, Dex 11, Con 30, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 11
Skills: Listen +14, Spot +14
Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (slam), Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack

Air Mastery (Ex): Airborne creatures take a –1 penalty on attack and damage rolls against a storm elemental.

Shock (Su): Once per round as a free action, a storm elemental can deliver an electrical shock to a single opponent within 10 feet. This attack deals nonlethal electricity damage to living opponents (Fortitude half). The save DC is Constitution-based.

Size....Height...Weight...Fortitude DC....Damage
Elder...36 ft.....40 lb......26.................10d4

Thunder and Lightning (Su): Once per minute as a full-round action, a storm elemental can emit a blast of thunder coupled with a bolt of lightning.
The thunder deals sonic damage (see chart) to all creatures within 60 feet of the storm elemental. A Fortitude save halves this damage.
The lightning is a 120-foot-long line that deals electricity damage (see table). A Reflex save halves this damage.
The save DCs are Constitution-based.

Size.....Save Dc.....Sonic Damage.....Electricity Damage
Elder....26.............10d6.................21d6

Cone of Cold (Sp): 3/day as a sorcerer with a caster level equal to 21

Electrical and Sonic Healing (Ex): Storm elementals take no damage from electricity and sonic attacks. Instead, any electricity attack (such as shocking grasp or lightning bolt) or sonic attack (such as sound burst) used against a storm elemental heals 1 point of damage for every 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. The storm elemental can’t heal hit points by attacking itself.

Fast Healing (Ex): In extremely cold or cold weather conditions, an orglash recovers lost hit points at the rate of 3 per round.

Native Elemental: Orglashes are native to the Material Plane. Spells that banish outsiders or elementals to their home plane do not work on orglashes. Spells that send outsiders or elementals to another plane (rather than to their home plane) work normally. Orglashes can be raised or resurrected, although their remains quickly vanish if killed, making it difficult to use these spells to restore them to life.

Saves: Orglashes receive a +2 morale bonus on all saving throws against spells from creatures they recognize to be Red Wizards.

[Kalegkos]

First of all i want to thank you all for answering. Way too much useful info :smalltongue: Much more than i wanted xD And also ty for the time you spend answering me and writing :smallbiggrin: Anyhow i will answer, try to at least, answer each one although i think i made my choice. First of all :

@Biffoniacus_Furiou

1. Didn't know that, cool :D
2. Can't have it yet, a storyline-background issue although it's one of the best summoning feats
3. It's not unlocked yet, the Eberron
4. Locked too :/
5. Got that :smalltongue:
6. Got that


@Gwynfrid

First of all the wizard is a summoner too, not a blaster. And in one round he could summon like 8 planetars... And i was kinda dissapointed. Well the main problem is that i am not satisfied with the gameplay of druid as summoner :/ Personal test, not that he's bad. Summoner as a PrC is great and gives you +1 to your class as it comes for spells, saves etc so i don't lose any spellcasting. The superior summoning is one of the feats i wanted to get. It's on my WTB feats :smalltongue:

@Gandariel

In fact you are right:smalltongue: That's why i'm so confused and can't choose something :/ I must check that PrC and see if i can get it. Although i still tend to be just a simple 15 lvl druid... Thnx for the advice anyhow :smallbiggrin:

@Gavinfoxx

That's the actual answer i was looking for as it comes to core-summoner druid. A core druid with summoning abilities without a PrC. I have to make a research as it comes to the suggestional feats. A question : How does a druid get Summon Desert Ally+Conjure Ice Beast? Another question, how is a summon like that possible? With the combination of the feats you talked about?

[Gwynfrid]

Hmm, indeed you wrote Druid 7 / Summoner 8; not Druid 7 / Conjurer 8, as I had hastily read :smallredface:

That will teach me about, maybe, checking if the OP isn't in fact way more knowledgeable than I am, before venturing an opinion on his question !

[Gavinfoxx]

@Gavinfoxx

That's the actual answer i was looking for as it comes to core-summoner druid. A core druid with summoning abilities without a PrC. I have to make a research as it comes to the suggestional feats. A question : How does a druid get Summon Desert Ally+Conjure Ice Beast? Another question, how is a summon like that possible? With the combination of the feats you talked about?

Yes, that monstrosity is possible with that combination of feats. Remember, Druids automatically know every Druid spell that WotC ever printed in 3.0 or 3.5e. So all you have to do is go splatbook diving for creatures that are added to the standard summon nature's ally list (like Storm Elementals), or spells that you can prepare, rather than sacrifice other spells to get, if you want to summon more obscure things. Just open Sandstorm and Frostburn, for example, they add those two summoning spells I was mentioning. Did you take a look at those two documents I linked to?

[Darth Stabber]

A question : How does a druid get Summon Desert Ally+Conjure Ice Beast? Another question, how is a summon like that possible? With the combination of the feats you talked about?

You don't have to do anything to gain access to those spells other than be a druid and have access to the books the spells were printed in. Conjure icebeast is in frostburn if I am not mistaken and I don't remember where summon desert ally is.

As everyone as said, the advantage of druid is that it is good at everything all the time. And honestly druids are already the best base classes for summoning, other casters use PRCs to get as good as druid is. Other than planar shepard and maybe lion of talasid, there really aren't that many good enough to make anyone choose it over more druid, if we are talking pure power.

[eggs]

Straightclassing the Druid is usually a good idea, but the Summoner looks really good.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like a Druid 7/Summoner 8 would be able to cast 4 Twinned Summon Monster 9s per day, on top of its normally scheduled spells. At absolute worst, each of those is 2d3 sporebats, each of which can spam enervations throughout fights.

Considering that the Druid comes with long-duration morph spells like animal shapes and shapechange, I could see that being worth it, especially swapping the Animal Companion for an Urban Companion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) and using a vacation to Complete Scoundrel's Frog God's Fane magical location to satisfy the feat requirement.

[Gavinfoxx]

But, a level 15 NORMAL Druid can have, say, at level 15, with Initiate of Nature, Wild Cohort, and the Animal Companion, THREE huge animals! Following you around all the time. If you want to have an Aerie, have them all be Dragonhawks or something.

That would work out pretty well.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=5

[eggs]

But not much of that's specific to the Druid's level (Initiate of Nature might be... I'm not totally sure how the effective cleric level there works).

With an Animal Shaped Urban companion, the summoner's in about the same situation (well, the natural bear would have a BA 1 point higher than the polymorphed bear), plus the silly added spell levels and free metamagic.

EDIT:
Not sure why I assumed a Dire Bear companion. With the Dragonhawk, the morphed Urban companion might even be at an advantage (15 HD, sharing Druid stats v. 12 based on animal traits, but the AC's feats muddle things).

[Kalegkos]

I will answer to everything in a a bit. Have to read too much xD I hope my lazy DM is also reading this thread and tells me his opinion and what does he accept and what he doesn't :smalltongue:

EDIT: Nikolas if you are reading this i love you! :smallcool:

EDIT2: My handsome, manly and talented Dm, ((As he asked me to mention :smalltongue:))

EDIT3 ((And the last :smalltongue:))

Answers :

@Gwynfrid

Haha no problem dude :smallbiggrin: I'm thankful anyhow!

@Darth Stabber

The problem is that i don't have access to many books. I eneter the campaign a bit late so i am mostly a core character.

@eggs

It's not like that. Now as a 7/8 i have a Summon V that comes like a VI, a VI that comes like VII, a VII that comes out like a VIII and a VIII that comes out like a IX. I can put only 1 metamagic feat in each one of those. So i can have 1 Summon of those twined and if i "sacrifice" them for a lower Summoner i can get max 2d3+1 if i get the feat, i don't remember the name now. It's not so bad to have at least 3 and max 7 Summons VIII. And i'm not a fan of the urban companions :/

@Gavinfoxx

I get the 2 companions with the Wild Cohort and the normal-core companion but the Initiate of Nature has nothing to do with companions :smalltongue: At least if i found the correct feat. This. (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Initiate_of_Nature) I like that gameplay to be honest and i am considering playing that way.