A challenge to the playground

[Harry]

Playground you are challenged to defeat all 7 of the Seraphim from the immortals handbook.

You must use a level twenty build, pun pun and the like are not allowed. You and the creature both have a week to prepare, it has as much knowledge of you as you of it.

Oh and it's state block.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/12516400/images/1287628959329.png

Good luck playground!:smallwink:

Oh and P.s they will be using there abilities in a optimized fashion.

[Gandariel]

If they're gonna use their abilities optimizing, there's little to no way (88th level clerics, Miracle at will, 18 epic spells)

You COULD cast an Ice Assassin of them (or two) and be done with it, though.

Anyway, they have a no-save-become-Good-aligned effect, so either you're good (and don't wanna fight them) or you're not good (and you become good)

[DeusMortuusEst]

If they're gonna use their abilities optimizing, there's little to no way (88th level clerics, Miracle at will, 18 epic spells)

You COULD cast an Ice Assassin of them (or two) and be done with it, though.

Anyway, they have a no-save-become-Good-aligned effect, so either you're good (and don't wanna fight them) or you're not good (and you become good)

And if you want to survive, tippy provides a neat trick:


Be an Illithid Savant. Use Ice Assassin to make an Aleax Psion 20 with True Mind Switch. Order it to True Mind Switch with you. Create an Ice Assassin Aleax of yourself. Order it to let you eat it's brain. Gain it's Ex ability Singular Enemy.

You now have two seperate copies of Singular enemy, each with a specific different enemy (one of which is you). Now the only thing in the entire game that can harm you is backlash damage from your own epic spells. To get around that place a Craft Contingent Temporal Stasis spell on yourself set to activate if you would take Backlash damage. It activates and you are unharmed from the backlash damage, at which point your craft contingent break enchantment goes off and strips off the Temporal Stasis.

Although if the spell has 1 round casting time you can use the power Timeless Body and negate the backlash damage that way.

[Gandariel]

To actually damage them.. Uhm.
You'd need an epic force damage spell.
Barring that, Hulking Hurler!

[DeusMortuusEst]

To actually damage them.. Uhm.
You'd need an epic force damage spell.
Barring that, Hulking Hurler!

Or perhaps that build that uses Tornado throw to throw their foe into the sun, I don't remember how much damage that did. Assuming that we have a sun to throw them into of course.

[Blue1005]

Who actually takes the time to come up with these creatures? It is pretty much impossible. average of 4444 dmg for a breath weapon. To try to build anything would be a futile waste of time.

[molten_dragon]

Playground you are challenged to defeat all 7 of the Seraphim from the immortals handbook.

You must use a level twenty build, pun pun and the like are not allowed. You and the creature both have a week to prepare, it has as much knowledge of you as you of it.

Oh and it's state block.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/12516400/images/1287628959329.png

Good luck playground!:smallwink:

Oh and P.s they will be using there abilities in a optimized fashion.

If it's using its abilities in even a decently optimized manner, it's going to take something pretty close to pun-pun levels of cheese to take it out. Even if you disregard all its other ridiculous abilities, the thing is an 88th level cleric.

And being immune to non-epic magic will screw up most of the things a cheesy caster could do.

I'm not sure how their magic immunity works (i.e. is it real immunity, or is it simply SR: infinite like most magic immunity). If it's simply infinite spell resistance, then I suppose it's possible that a sufficiently cheesy mailman or hulking hurler build could maybe kill one of them if they could also min/max their initiative to be able to go first, but I seriously doubt even that. An 88th level cleric is going to have ways to protect from that kind of thing.

And the Cosmic String ability makes them impossible to kill permanently anyway unless you are (or can mimic) being 'of greater stature than them'.

[Gandariel]

apparently that book is full of similar creatures. (Check out its Size, it says Macro-Fine, implying that things like Macro-Medium exist.)
Anyway i suppose they're made for being fought by 80-th level charachters, or something.
Fighters doing tens of thousands of damage, wizards slinging multiple epic spells per round, rogues... sneaking?

[Harry]

Come on playground! I'm sure you guys can beat them!

[The Dark Fiddler]

Come on playground! I'm sure you guys can beat them!

You're essentially saying "Beat ~4 level 88 clerics with a bunch of other abilities, but you're not allowed to use anything higher than level 20."

No, I don't think the Playground can.

Edit: Not to mention that the "other abilities" include complete immunity to non-epic magic (opposed to the the type that only applies to spells that allow spell resistance), a no-save ability that instantly pacifies you, a breath weapon that deals minimum damage of 88 and maximum of nearly 9,000, explicitly only being able to be killed by something of equal stature to itself, and a 500 ft. radius of "you die."

[molten_dragon]

apparently that book is full of similar creatures. (Check out its Size, it says Macro-Fine, implying that things like Macro-Medium exist.)
Anyway i suppose they're made for being fought by 80-th level charachters, or something.
Fighters doing tens of thousands of damage, wizards slinging multiple epic spells per round, rogues... sneaking?

Yeah, the immortals handbook is kind of silly. Most of the monsters are just collections of extremely large numbers, and their power levels vary wildly. For example, the neutronium golem, with a CR of something like 9700, is weaker in a lot of ways than the thing the OP posted.

[Harry]

Ok then..... New level cap you can go as high as level 40 and gestalt. (dual prestige classes allowed)

[Wraith]

Epic Level Gestalt Diplomancer/Diplomancer.

Stack everything into Charisma and Persuade, then convince them to fight each other. :smalltongue:

[Gandariel]

or level 21 wizard, get a good enough epic spell :P

EDIT: Just read the Neutronium Golem stats... LOL!
CR 9700 is definitely too high, but it's really fun.

[Harry]

Wraith you would need to get inside there aura to do that.....

Oh and gandariel they also level 88 clerics with epic spellcasting. A level 21 wizard isn't enough............

[enderlord99]

Glyphstone, please explain to Harry what the Immortals Handbook actually is.

[Harry]

The Immortals Handbook is not rules. It is the result of putting boxing gloves on an epileptic monkey and letting it pound on a number pad for a few hours, then editing the typos and adding names to stuff, is it not?

[enderlord99]

The Immortals Handbook is not rules. It is the result of putting boxing gloves on an epileptic monkey and letting it pound on a number pad for a few hours, then editing the typos and adding names to stuff, is it not?

If you already know, then why are you issuing this challenge?

[Harry]

Oh because the playground beat that golem, so I thought why not something stronger?

[Laserlight]

"The way to win, is not to play."

[theUnearther]

Oh because the playground beat that golem, so I thought why not something stronger?

The thing is, that golem was noticeably weak. For its challenge rating of course.

But, I'll bite. Sorta.
My character is whatever combination of Wizard, Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge gets me epic spells on both sides. If I have levels left, they are some Tome of Battle classes for those rare times when it is not worth it to spend a spell. Unless I have enough levels to grab epic psionics too, then I do that instead.

Note that I don't actually know the epic spells rules, so if somebody could be so nice as to quantify the following spells and confirm that this is possible, I'd be very grateful.
My first epic spell gives me an epic bonus to spellcraft. No drawbacks, no backslash, no help required, does not take an action, lasts 24 hours, and it gives the highest bonus that it can give while having the spellcraft DC be something I can hit by taking 10. It lasts all day so I'm doing it out of battle.
The second spell is the same, but the bonus is as high as I can hit while under the effect of the one above. Let's pretend I'm being reasonable and that the bonuses overlap, not stack, though I'm pretty sure there is a way to not do this.
Do the same for each spell until I have only 3 epic spells slots left. If I have manifesting, one of them has to move to psycraft OR the chain starts with psycraft, depending on which side is best for:
My last three spells are "kill something". No save, no resistance, no immunities, no defenses, can't be revived, can't planeshift back from wherever it ended, can't planeshift me to wherever it ended, etc etc etc. They are also nonactions without drawbacks. Also can be targeted remotely I guess, since we were assuming I know about these guys. If I somehow still don't have enough spellcraft to pull this spell off, sprinkle skill-boosting cheese to taste.
So, at some point during the day I take an instant to will myself to be able to will myself to be able to will myself to [...] be able to will those guys dead, and then I will those guys dead.
That burns my epic spells for the day, so I guess I take the rest of the day off.

[Gandariel]

They can be hit only with Divination or Evocation epic spells. (That's fairly restrictive.. )

And they're immune to most energy types.

So i'd go with theUnearther's plan:
1st epic spell => + (as much as i can) Enhancement bonus to spellcraft
2nd epic spell => + (as much as i NOW can) sacred bonus to spellcraft
.....

Plus general optimisation to Spellcraft.

The last epic spell is an Epic evocation spell that deals 15 000 d6 force damage, no save.

For mitigation, i guess i can use my Epic Leadership for a thousand allied casters burning spell slots and XP.


And it's possibly dead.


Another idea would be some sort of infinite damage attack (the trick of Greater arcane fusion containing Greater arcane fusion and a damaging spell, like magic missile :P).

OR, a 1d2 Crusader.
Get cohort to cast Wraithstrike on you, then Wish=>teleport you behind the monster, then attack. 80 touch AC is doable, and you've killed it.



Oh well, actually not, because i can't permanently kill it. And the only ways in which you can "trap" or "imprison" things are NOT evocation or Divination.


So yeah, in conclusion you can't get around the "can't be killed" thing, even if you were able to actually kill it.

[krai]

I'm not clear on if its immunities and resistances would stop this but how about using 7 mirrors of opposition on the 7 seriphim resulting in 28 evil ones that would then kill the originals.

EDIT: I just realized that the anti magic field had 1 more digit than i thought, probably not going to be able to see the mirror 7281 ft away...

[rweird]

Assuming they know you will attack, they'll teleport in and use there destroy you no save if you have less than 88 HD to kill you unless you count it being a SU ability to make it so they wouldn't have it up due to the wording of the antimagic field (doesn't effect your spellcasting), because then they couldn't use any of there powers.

I suppose an Initiate of Mystra with a persisted antimagic field could negate all the miracles and SU powers. You could have sorcerer/dweomerkeeper on the other side, and pull off a infinite damage loop with SU sanctum arcane fusion+damage spell (vortex of teeth w/ evil descriptor or the like). For the higher stature part, it gives no definition to what it means for stature, so you could use magic to become taller than them before you destroy them, or just get better known, they haven't really done much for a few thousand years, all but the greatest of sages don't know they exist, on the other hand you may have a massive reputation among mortals, and once you destroy one of them, I think it would spread to deities, meaning you might have higher stature in that way as well. Craft contigent spells to teleport you to each of them so you can kill them all in one round, start while you're in a battle so you'd appear after they already acted that round and can do nothing about it.

I just noticed that the Anti magic field thing could be interpreted as it doesn't impede your magic (the character), though the creature wouldn't read it meaning I'm pretty sure that as worded, it won't have any SLAs, SUs or casting that it can actually use.

[Flickerdart]

What we need is a way to jack a bunch of divine ranks from something. Alter Reality beats anything.

[Eugenides]

I'm REALLY bad at optimization, but just a question: with 40 levels of gestalt, do you guys think there would be a way to abuse that Red Wizard of Thay prestige class that can basically steal spell slots from other willing casters?

[theUnearther]

I'm REALLY bad at optimization, but just a question: with 40 levels of gestalt, do you guys think there would be a way to abuse that Red Wizard of Thay prestige class that can basically steal spell slots from other willing casters?

There are plenty of ways to abuse the red wizard. The most obviously is probably chaingating spellcasting monsters.

The problem with this approach is that the existence of epic spells makes nonepic spells obsolete, in any amount.
Unless you meant using those spells to fuel a supermitigated epic spells, in which case red wizard does not help at all, and mitigation is unnecesary anyways.

Also, I did not realize there were so many levels to gain. In that case, I'd like to make the following stipulations to my attempt.
One side is Wizard1/Erudite something/the arcanepsionic theurge 10/Erudite 15 minus "something"/Wizard 14. Qualifying for the arcane side of the theurge at level 1, then taking epic manifesting at level 23 and epic spellcasting at 36. On the other side is Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 10/Druid 25, if I have to take epic spellcasting twice then I guess at 24. And if one helping serves both sides, then my 36th feat opens up. But there is nothing to take. Is there such a thing as "Extra Epic Spell"?
Anyways, if theurges are disallowed, I go with Wizard 7/Druid 7/Erudite 7/Wizard 7/Erudite 7/Planar Shepherd 10/Druid 2 in one side and Druid 7/Erudite 7/Wizard 7/Druid 7/Wizard 6/Erudite 6 on the other, which gives me epic spellcasting (wizard) at 30, (druid) at 33 and epic manifesting at 36 (or whichever, they all qualify at level 28).
Obviously any levels of Erudite, Wizard or Druid can be switched for any full casting prestige class you want. The key to all of this is the Shepherd's level 9 ability, and a question: Is there any creature that gets Epic Spellcasting as an Extraordinary, Spell-like or Supernatural ability? Because if so, I just smuggled myself into infinite epic spells. And since both the Epic Level and Immortals handbooks seem to be in play, I bet there is one.
The only epic spells I really need now are one that gives me infinite uses of wildshape per day, and preferably makes it a non-action too; the basic +spellcraft, but this time I want it to be a stackable one, even if it's just a +1, I'll have an infinite amount of them; and the one that actually deals with the problem, that presumably can have arbitrarily high effects by burning more and more epic spells. Or perhaps a simple unbound mitigation and wildshaping into something that has nonepic spells, but the whole point of this exercise was that mitigation is pointless.
The specifics of the things' immunity seems to be a nonissue, since anything I might want to do to them is either to know where they are and to make them stop being.

I agree that it all falls flat if the other guys have better spells than me, hence the scratching around for more sources of them. Since I don't think you get more epic spell slots by level.
Also, I just realized there are 7 of those guys, not 3. My bad.

[TuggyNE]

I agree that it all falls flat if the other guys have better spells than me, hence the scratching around for more sources of them. Since I don't think you get more epic spell slots by level.

You get epic spell slots at the rate of 1 per 10 Knowledge (arcana), (religion), or (psionics) ranks.

[The Redwolf]

Where can one find somewhere to read some of the monsters in that book? This sounds like a lot of fun and I'd like to take a look at them.

[LadyLexi]

20 levels of knight really expands my characters lifespan for a fight, and then epic level spell casting going the Gestalt route, Backlash still can't kill me because I'm a knight. And I try to explode it a little bit. Alternatively, Wish for a genie to grant wishes of three wish scrolls for more Genies. There must be something to do with infinite money and wishes.

[Bomaz]

Ice assasin everything from that book and some gods (all you r wealth goes to scrolls etc). Twice order the monsters to fight (and resurect you later)

kill yourself to get out of their reach

be ressurected when the battle is over.

but this is punpun lvl cheese

[maximus25]

And if you want to survive, tippy provides a neat trick:

Wouldn't that not work since


An aleax does not exist until it is called into being by a deity

You're not a deity at 20th level.

[Douglas]

It's too bad Chuck E. Cheese, the Ruby Knight Windicator got killed by errata. Pre-errata I think he could do it, and that's level 20 non-gestalt. He'd need a means of non-visual perception to get around the instant death aura, but that's almost trivial to tack on. He would need to go first, though.

[Harry]

The Redwolf google it.

LadyLexi immunity to non-epic magic and resistance to epic magic makes wish useless, they also have miracle at will iirc.

Bomaz and then they shoot there alignment changing breath at the ice assassins, now you have 14 of them to deal with.

[Flickerdart]

Loyal Beyond Death only protects you from damage, and an 88th level Cleric isn't going to bother with that. Just persist the ol' Supernatural Delay Death and move on.

[The Redwolf]

The Redwolf google it.

Thank you, that hadn't occurred to me.:smallannoyed:

Actually, that was the first thing I did, but the links all went to something entirely different, and I tried a few different forms of phrasing, you could suggest a way to phrase it that would give me the proper result, that would be nice instead of basically just dismissing me for asking a question.

[Harry]

Haha sorry was in a hurry..... Have you tried.... Immortals handbook PDF?

[Arcanist]

Tippy actually has the whole "god slaying thing" clipped (See here) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12959325&postcount=115), however since this is pre-epic (20 levels only) you can't access some of the cheesy things you need to do this... Honestly, the best thing I can think of is sicking the Stuffy Doll (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256950) on him :smallbiggrin:

But in all seriousness the major problem with this challenge is that you're asking everyone to kill a God (and I'm assuming you mean permanently, otherwise I would have seen every infinite action + damage combo in the game on the first page). Since this guy is effectively packing a Divine Rank 32, I sincerely doubt the playgrounds capabilities of victory in this conflict (however, it should be noted that I have been wrong in underestimating the powers of the Playground). I'd like to see how this whole thing resolves peacefully (with minimal collateral fire damage if at all possible).

[Harry]

Err.....actually I am asking for everyone to kill seven gods......but honestly if anyone can do it the playground can.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Wouldn't that not work since /../ you're not a deity at 20th level.

Well, if I understand that trick correctly it works since you're not creating an aleax per se, but an ice assassin copy of one. I don't remember how Tippy explained it, but there's a thread for that somewhere.

[TuggyNE]

Well, if I understand that trick correctly it works since you're not creating an aleax per se, but an ice assassin copy of one. I don't remember how Tippy explained it, but there's a thread for that somewhere.

Probably because ice assassin requires, as a material component, a piece of the creature you're copying — and failed to put a price tag on that piece, which means it's fair game for Eschew Materials or a simple spell component pouch. :smallsigh:

So yes, by strict RAW, all spellcasters have a piece of anything they might ever want to copy in their pouch. Handy for scrying too, neh?

[Arcanist]

Well, if I understand that trick correctly it works since you're not creating an aleax per se, but an ice assassin copy of one. I don't remember how Tippy explained it, but there's a thread for that somewhere.

Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12959325&postcount=115) This trick assumes that there is a omniverse theory in place meaning there are an infinite possibility of universes meaning that somewhere that is an Aleax of you :smallsmile:


Probably because ice assassin requires, as a material component, a piece of the creature you're copying — and failed to put a price tag on that piece, which means it's fair game for Eschew Materials or a simple spell component pouch. :smallsigh:

So yes, by strict RAW, all spellcasters have a piece of anything they might ever want to copy in their pouch. Handy for scrying too, neh?

Derp... Eschew Materials allows the combo to work properly :smalltongue:

[DeusMortuusEst]

Ah, that was it. Thanks to both of you :smallbiggrin:

[molten_dragon]

Where can one find somewhere to read some of the monsters in that book? This sounds like a lot of fun and I'd like to take a look at them.

You can buy a copy of the pdf here (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/3481/Immortals-Handbook---EPIC-BESTIARY%3A-Volume-One?it=1)
or
here (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/3481/Immortals-Handbook---EPIC-BESTIARY%3A-Volume-One?it=1)

There are NO other ways to acquire said pdf.

[Arcanist]

You can buy a copy of the pdf here (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/3481/Immortals-Handbook---EPIC-BESTIARY%3A-Volume-One?it=1)
or
here (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/3481/Immortals-Handbook---EPIC-BESTIARY%3A-Volume-One?it=1)

There are NO other ways to acquire said pdf.

I actually have a link to a virtual online copy of the Immortals Handbook -Bestiary, however I'm not sure if it's against forum rules to post :smallsigh:

{Scrubbed}

[Aegis013]

Maybe this? Need to boost arcane CL to arbitrary levels, and I'm not sure how to do that. Or, at least to CL 365, and still not entirely sure this would work.

This assumes that the immunity to magic is SR: infinity, and that Dire Tortoise form will net a surprise round against it.

If we assume its magic immunity is SR: infinity, and that we can use Dire Tortoise form to go first, perhaps this could work.

Boost CL to 365. With metamagic reducers to make Repeat Spell free (Arcane Thesis: GAF + Easy Metamagic + Practical Metamagic or Incantatrix capstone or other metamagic reducer), you might be able to kill it. I'm not sure how to boost CL arbitrarily high for arcane though.

The idea is, become a dire tortoise in your sanctum, open up a Gate spell (for the window style effect) 7,490 ft away from the enemy creature, use your surprise round against it to free action back into your normal form, then use the GAF-in-a-GAF trick to cast a Repeated GAF containing a Repeated GAF and a metamagic cost reduced enlarged Orb of Force. This should do enough damage to obliterate it (infinity). The repeat part of the GAF is so that it continually reactivates itself in an infinite loop. That way there are always infinity orbs of force flying out of your sanctum at its corpse while it tries to rejuvinate, and if it ever returns to life, it hopefully immediately dies again from the infinity orbs of force. You have to swift concentrate forever to maintain your Gate, though, so I recommend being a Warforged or Necropolitan (maybe with a level of Tainted Scholar for evil descriptor to spells to bypass its regeneration).

Should bypass the immunity to conjuration and epic spell reflection etc. by merit of the orb being an instantaneous conjuration, so it's a non-spell orb of force flying at it.

Even if this does work, it kind of only indefinitely pins it down instead of killing it, unless by merit of doing that your stature is now equal to its or whatever.

There's probably something overlooked that makes this not work, or one of those epic spells or something that foils this.

There's probably some flaw in the idea though (including the need to arbitrarily boost arcane CL). Or some ability it has that I overlooked. Not sure what some of those epic spells are, for example...

[Gandariel]

Technically, even without counting the enormous amount of stuff he has, he's still an 88th level cleric. That means death by damage doesn't work.(As well as every other method, i guess

[rweird]

They have miracle at will, it'll have ray deflection or friendly fire up at all times. They're super intelligent foes.

From what I can tell from metamagic freedom, they can miracle infinite attacks that effect the entire universe that does infinite damage (metamagic feats don't increase spell level excepts for heighten and a few others, just the slot it takes up), so they could wish for a Empowered (x∞), Energy Admixure (Sonic, Lightning, Acid, Fire, and Cold) (x∞), Consecrated, Trans-dimensional, Twinned (x∞), Repeating (x∞), Widened (x∞), Enlarged (x∞), Enhanced (x21 [max CL of the creature]), to effect the entire plane it is on and if you aren't immune to damage you're dead, you can be immune to damage and survive this, and there needs to be no way that you can use metamagic to overcome that immunity, it also can effect the entire plane and all planes co-existent with it, It would be immune because that isn't an epic spell. It can fire an infinite number of spells per round itself as well, it's pretty much who can win initiative, and i think it could considering it can break CL limits with miracle from some feat I don't remember the name of, meaning it can use moment of Moment of Prescience to get a initiative mod of something like +272, and can shapechange into a Dire Tortoise as well, though I suppose you could wish for some epic magic item with SU spell that gives a +999999999999999999999999 bonus to initiative, on the other hand, it can gate a solar to do the same.

This is an arms race, assuming they are playing intelligently, you can't really beat them, before action economy abuse, they have 28 turns while you have 1, with enough cheese I suppose you could draw with them, though you can't really beat them, even if you can beat there cosmic string.

[Harry]

I just remembered they also have the ability to summon one cherub each.

So here's there stats.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/12516400/images/1287628432338.png

[Aharon]

Does their immunity include immunity to SLAs and SUs?

Does it include creatures/objects summoned by SLAs?

=> Epic Binder, Sphere of Annihilation.

Epic Mailman with Knowledge Affiliation, use Knowledge Affiliation to take away magic immunity, proceed with high-cheese Hail of Stone.

[Aharon]

Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12959325&postcount=115) This trick assumes that there is a omniverse theory in place meaning there are an infinite possibility of universes meaning that somewhere that is an Aleax of you :smallsmile:


Wether his method works depends on your stance about what is fluff and what is RAW, and how they interact in edge cases (his method relies on using an aleax of himself, and the fluff section of Aleaxes says the creature only exists when created by a god and that they are specifically created to kill the being they are a copy of.
a) If it exists, it's coming for you
b) The DM is needed to decide wether one or more of them actually exist)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13001425&postcount=201

[Wings of Peace]

How does the Seraphim know as much about me as I know about it? I'm just sayin' it has no abilities that obfuscate details about itself at all short of whatever it might use off the cleric list. Meanwhile I could be a formerly Vecna-Blooded character and be virtually impossible to divine information about.

Not that it's hard to work around. The easy answer is just send a Simulucrum or other spell clone of yourself and have it do all the fighting and info grabbing while you get tea.

[rweird]

It has miracle at will to duplicate any spell on the clerical list and one of them could blast Vecna out of the universe if it had the mind, they have the scrolls of holy divine knowledge meaning it'll tell it everything about you if an angle ever encountered you, even assuming it doesn't I'd wonder how you'd know so much about it, seeing as they have slumbered since the beginning of time till recently and pretty much nothing is strong enough to stand against one of them in battle and be able to record the results. They also can make Simulacrum, of themselves, whenever they want, hundreds of times per round (four actions each, can use quickened x8 miracle to cast 9 miracles per head, there are seven of them, meaning in one round they can make 252 Simulacrums), and those Simulacrums could make Simulacrums of the main ones, meaning you'd have ever increasing numbers of unkillable foes (cosmic string makes them reform), you can make a few simulacrums per day in comparison, and they are immune to all non epic magic, and epic magic besides divination and evocation, and they has SR in the 200s.

[Kazyan]

Kill seven overdieties that are being played intelligently, and know what you're going to try to do, you say?

Can't be done.

[Bomaz]

Bomaz and then they shoot there alignment changing breath at the ice assassins, now you have 14 of them to deal with.

Ah but the ice assasins are still loyal and have orders to follow. Their alignment might change but this is largely irrelevant. They still seek to destroy the seraphim.

[Aharon]

@rweird
They can't make simulacrums of themselves, as Simulacrum is a non-epic spell which they are immune to. They might be able to create an epic spell with the same effect, but it would have to be a divination or an evocation.

Basically, they are immune to almost all beneficial magic, they won't be able to use a great amount of buffs.

[rweird]

@rweird
They can't make simulacrums of themselves, as Simulacrum is a non-epic spell which they are immune to. They might be able to create an epic spell with the same effect, but it would have to be a divination or an evocation.

Basically, they are immune to almost all beneficial magic, they won't be able to use a great amount of buffs.

Simulacrum doesn't target the creature itself, it just requires a piece of the creature (though they use there miracle SLA so it doesn't). Still, I guess they won't have many buffs up, unless you count heightening spells to 10th+ level epic, in which case they'd just cast heightened miracle for an epic evocation that they wouldn't be immune to.

[Aharon]

You're right, I was AFB and misremembered the text.
I'm pretty sure spells above 9th level aren't epic, though.

[TuggyNE]

I'm pretty sure spells above 9th level aren't epic, though.

More precisely: there's a difference between 10th, 11th, and 12th-level spell slots (which are only available in Epic level ranges at the cost of feats, for the most part, and are chiefly used for metamagic), and epic spellcasting (which uses ranks in specific Knowledge skills to determine epic spells/day after gaining one feat, and does not interact with normal spells or metamagic directly at all).

[Harry]

So the seraphim win?.......how is that even possible?

[Arcanist]

So the seraphim win?.......how is that even possible?

That depends, are we allowed to use the Immortals Handbook as well? Because if it is then I think I got an idea for it :smallconfused:

[Harry]

Playground, this is probably the second (Punpun being the first) biggest challange the playground has ever faced.

Rules:You are to make a level 1000 (that's right 1000) gestalt.

You are allowed any cheese except manipulate form.

You are not allowed To use anything from the immortals handbook to your advantage.

Your PC had a year to prepare.

Now finally your opponent.


THE MORTIVERSE

Is a Octodecaogdoad Nona-Macrobe Amidah Apocalyptic Black-Hole-Spawned Legion Elder Unelemental
Xona-Titanic Outsider (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 1,584,563,250,000,000,000,000,000,000,000d1000+ 627,710,173,312,402,500,000,000,060,213,403,500,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000 (627,710,173,312,402,500,000,004,405,085,855,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000 hp) [INFINITE HP]

Initiative: +39,614,081,250,000,000,000,000,017,738 [+INFINITY] (always first)

Speed: Fly 84,442,493,010,000,000 ft (perfect) (16,888,498,600,000,000 squares)

Armor Class: 13,949,114,962,503,125,000,000,006,235,068,135,750 ,000,000,000,000,017,776 [INFINITE] (-19,807,040,630,000,000,000,000,000,000 size, +39,614,081,250,000,000,000,000,000,078 Dex [+INFINITY], +38 deflection, +13,949,114,962,503,125,000,000,005,740,492,120,75 0,000,000,000,000,000,000 natural, +158,456,325,000,000,000,000,000,000,060 luck, +316,912,650,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 insight, +17,600 divine)

BAB/Grp: +1,584,563,250,000,000,000,000,000,000,000/+1,624,177,331,000,000,000,000,000,001,461 [+INFINITY]

Attack: Slam +1,604,370,290,000,000,000,000,000,018,681 [+INFINITY] melee touch ((1.64242679676097956787161330563046400971x10^1399 8234165795717336113540446)d10+1,095,989,581,000,00 0,000,000,000,001,081 [+INFINITY])

Full Attack: 2 slams +1,604,370,290,000,000,000,000,000,018,681 [+INFINITY] melee touch ((1.64242679676097956787161330563046400971x10^1399 8234165795717336113540446)d10+1,095,989,581,000,00 0,000,000,000,001,081 [+INFINITY])

Space/Reach: 198,070,406,300,000,000,000,000,000,000 ft/198,070,406,300,000,000,000,000,000,000 ft

Special Attacks: Alter reality, divine aura, entropic mastery, gravitic aura, omega pulse, portfolios, third death, time lord abilities, void gaze, vortex, wish

Special Qualities: Accretion, cosmic consciousness, cosmic firmament, DR 528,187,750,000,000,000,000,000,000,000/-, elemental traits, evil eye, fast healing 792,281,625,000,000,000,000,000,000,070, flight, generate spawn, hardness 1,500, omnicompetent, regeneration, rejuvenation, SR 1,584,563,250,000,000,000,000,000,000,270, time lord traits, transtemporal, undead traits

Saves:
Fort +792,281,625,000,000,000,000,000,017,662 [+INFINITY]
Ref +831,895,706,300,000,000,000,000,017,738 [+INFINITY]
Will +831,895,706,300,000,000,000,000,017,741 [+INFINITY]

Abilities:
Str 79,228,162,500,000,000,000,000,002,052 [INFINITE] (+39,614,081,250,000,000,000,000,001,021) [+INFINITY]
Dex 79,228,162,500,000,000,000,000,000,166 [INFINITE] (+39,614,081,250,000,000,000,000,000,078) [+INFINITY]
Con -
Int 79,228,162,500,000,000,000,000,000,081 [INFINITE] (+39,614,081,250,000,000,000,000,000,035) [+INFINITY]
Wis 79,228,162,500,000,000,000,000,000,172 [INFINITE] (+39,614,081,250,000,000,000,000,000,081) [+INFINITY]
Cha 79,228,162,500,000,000,000,000,000,086 [INFINITE] (+39,614,081,250,000,000,000,000,000,038) [+INFINITY]

Skills: All skills + (1,584,563,250,000,000,000,000,000,017,663 plus key ability modifier) [+INFINITY]

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Supernatural Transformation (wish), Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Death's Blessing, Reflective Spell Resistance, Epic Potency x528,187,750,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Environment: Outer Space
Organization: Unique
Challenge Rating: 264,093,876,000,000,000,000,000,058,608
Treasure: None
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -

Mortiverse's mind-boggling density grants it 5,281,877,500,000,000,000,000,000,072 virtual size categories. Save DCs are infinite unless the infitie aspect is cancelled out.

Accretion (Ex): Anyone striking the Mortiverse must make a DC 831,895,706,300,000,000,000,000,001,091 Strength check to be able to retrieve their weapon (or appendage) from the entity’s surface following each and every attack. The DC is Strength-based.

Divine Aura (Su): Range 253,530,120,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ft [INFINITE], save DC 831,895,706,300,000,000,000,000,000,108.

Entropic Mastery (Ex): The damage dealt by the Mortiverse is permanent. A limited wish spell will heal 1 point of damage. A miracle or wish will heal 1 point of damage per level of the caster. Those slain by the Mortiverse are brought closer to the true nature of death and as such cannot be raised. However, they can be resurrected, albeit suffering a loss of 2 levels (from resurrection) or a loss of 1 level (from true resurrection). The Mortiverse destroys nonmagical matter with a touch. Magical items must make a Fortitude save (DC 831,895,706,300,000,000,000,000,000,108) each time they touch, or are touched by, the Mortiverse or be destroyed. Anyone grappling with, or striking, the Mortiverse suffers permanent damage equal to the base dice their attack(s) would normally inflict.

Evil Eye (Ex): Opponents of the Mortiverse suffer a -12 luck penalty to armor class, attack rolls, checks of any kind, damage rolls, DCs, initiative, saves, SR, and TR Furthermore, Mortiverse may choose the die results for all creatures within its divine aura. This effect has a range of 63,382,530,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,400 ft and there is no save.

Flight (Ex): The Mortiverse does not fly; rather, it is not subject to gravity in the same way other creatures are. It can move in any direction through any medium, disintegrating any solid matter in its path.

Generate Spawn (Su): As a standard action at will, the Mortiverse may generate 52,818,775,000,000,000,000,000,000,000d10 spawn statistically equivalent to itself, only the spawn lack the ability to generate other spawn. Each spawn generated subtracts its hp from the Mortiverse’s total, although having infinite hp renders this moot. The Mortiverse may always choose to generate fewer spawn than a die roll indicates. Under normal circumstances, Mortiverse will choose to generate spawn during any round in which it is not actually fighting. Spawn remain in constant mental contact with the Mortiverse. Distance is not a factor, but communication cannot cross planar boundaries. Each spawn is capable f independent action and can even gain experience (good luck with that), but it obeys the commands of the Mortiverse without question. The Mortiverse may only command three spawn at a time, although it may create more if it so wishes. Free spawn may serve the Mortiverse willingly, but are truly autonomous entities. When the Mortiverse is slain, all its spawn are freed. A free spawn has a 5% chance to become a new Mortiverse.

Gravitic Aura (Ex): The astronomical mass of the Mortiverse causes great disturbances within the localized area. See the following table for effects based on proximity. The Fortitude save DC is Strength-based. The Mortiverse and its spawn are not subject to this effect.

Radius (10^795,001,780,500,000,000,000,000,000) ft
Hp damage 10% (Your maximum hit points are reduced by this amount each round.)
Death save DC 831,895,706,300,000,000,000,000,001,091
Unconsciousness save DC –
Stunning save DC –

Radius (10^795,001,780,500,000,000,000,000,000)x3 ft
Hp damage 2%
Death save DC 831,895,706,300,000,000,000,000,001,091
Unconsciousness save DC –
Stunning save DC –

Radius (10^795,001,780,500,000,000,000,000,000)x10 ft
Hp damage –
Death save DC –
Unconsciousness save DC 831,895,706,300,000,000,000,000,001,091
Stunning save DC –

Radius (10^795,001,780,500,000,000,000,000,000)x30 ft
Hp damage –
Death save DC –
Unconsciousness save DC –
Stunning save DC 831,895,706,300,000,000,000,000,001,091

Immunities (Ex): ability damage, ability drain, anything requiring a Fortitude save unless it affects objects, critical hits, death effects, death from massive damage, disease, energy damage, energy drain, fatigue, magic from this universe, mind-affecting effects, natural effects, non-epic magic, paralysis, permanent destruction, petrification, physical injury by matter from this universe, poison, polymorphing, stunning, wounding.

Omega Pulse (Su): Once per day, the Mortiverse can release a pulse of utter doom. The omega pulse kills or destroys 1,584,563,250,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 creatures, as selected by the Mortiverse within a 633,825,300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000-ft spread, centered on the Mortiverse. A successful Will save (DC 831,895,706,300,000,000,000,000,000,108) resists the effect, but targets within range still take 316,912,650,000,000,000,000,000,000,000d8 points of sonic damage. Creatures immune to death effects are still vulnerable to this attack.

Regeneration (Ex): The Mortiverse regrows severed limbs in 1d6 rounds, and it can reattach a severed limb instantly by holding it to the stump. Its fast healing continues to function even when it is brought below 0 hit points (at which point the Mortiverse becomes helpless instead of being destroyed). It can only be truly slain by reducing it below 0 hp and then using a wish or miracle, either of which must also bypass its spell resistance, to keep it dead.

Rejuvenation (Su): Three times per day the Mortiverse can restore itself to full hit points.

Third Death (Su): If destroyed (permanently), the Mortiverse implodes in on itself. All targets within the Mortiverse’s reach must make a Reflex save (DC 831,895,706,300,000,000,000,000,000,108) or be sucked into the void and lost forever. Occasionally, beings lost in this manner find a way to return, but they are never the same as they were before unless they are somehow protected from the dimension of entropy.

Time Lord Abilities:
-Akashic Effect, Uncanny (633,825,300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 x8 divine ranks before effect modification)
-Cosmic Nullification
-Indissoluble
-Infinite Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma
-Learned Opponent Immunity
-Omneity
-Omnidimensional
-Omnific Toughness
-Omniparity
-Omnipresent
-Omniversal
-Transcendental Nescience
-Undimensional

-Invincibility
-Omega Effect, Uncanny (6,338,253,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000d4 x8 HD before effect modification)
-Perfect Attack
-Perfect Defense
-Transdimensional
-Transilient Saves
-Transmute

-Abrogate
-Ensorcelled

-Goetic Blood
-Mime Ability
-Perfect Initiative
-Quantum Effect (stuck at octuple effect)

12,844 ability slots left to spend

Void Gaze (Su): Any intelligent creature looking at the Mortiverse can become lost in the unrelenting depth of blackness. Intelligent creatures within 158,456,325,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ft of the Mortiverse must make a Will save (DC 831,895,706,300,000,000,000,000,000,108) or become fascinated for 2d6 rounds. This is a mind-affecting effect.

Vortex (Ex): Normally the Mortiverse somehow insulates itself from the environment and dampens its gravitational field, otherwise it would be at the center of a storm of wind and flying matter. If it chooses, however, the Mortiverse can suspend this insulation, causing an astronomical attraction to it. This vortex can suck all the air or other gases from a (10^795,001,780,500,000,000,000,000,000)-ft cube in a single round. Furthermore, all creatures within 10^795,001,780,500,000,000,000,000,000 ft of the Mortiverse who fail a DC 831,895,706,300,000,000,000,000,001,091 Reflex save are pulled into contact with the Mortiverse, taking damage equal to the Mortiverse's base slam damage.

Wish (Su): At will, Mortiverse can duplicate the effects of a wish at caster level 1,584,563,250,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Save DC 39,614,081,250,000,000,000,000,000,117. This is a supernatural ability.

Good luck playground, good luck.

[Harry]

Go for it arcanist, I don't want these things to win.

[Deathkeeper]

I'm getting a bit of deja vu here. Except it's gotten even more ridiculous. Seriously, did you actually type that many (+ INFINITY)'s with a straight face? If you did, how?

[ThiagoMartell]

Pun-Pun was not a challenge. He also wasn't created in the playground.

[Battleship789]

Go for it arcanist, I don't want these things to win.

I have an idea in the works, though it is fairly cheesy (level 20 character.)

Edit: Are they assumed to have no items/WBL? And can they affect themselves with non-epic spells?

Anyone know of a way to get the [Evil] descriptor onto any spell?

[Harry]

Never said he was created here.

[ThiagoMartell]

Derp... Eschew Materials allows the combo to work properly :smalltongue:

Priceless =/= 0 gp cost

[Harry]

Hmm. I guess we shall assume there own spells can effect themselfs (but if someone says why they wouldn't....well yea go with the correct ruling)

And considering how they are God's with miracle at will I guess we should assume infinite wealth. Or at least wealth by level.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Let's keep this to a single thread.

[Harry]

Hmmk. If we can defeat the first monster( or if you just want to skip it) you can fight that.....thing.

[HunterOfJello]

A creature with divine ranks could beat his initiative since theirs count as natural 20s.

[Randomguy]

This thing would be easier to read if you just wrote +infinity to everything instead of typing out stupid big numbers for every stat.

But anywho: You've got epic spellcasting available at a crazy high level. You can spend a few months making ice assassins of yourself and using them all to fuel a ritual strong enough to end the entire multiverse.

[TuggyNE]

I'm not sure what the point of this is. Clearly, there are a nigh-infinite number of semi-autonomous spawn out there; how many of them need to randomly decide to blow stuff up before the multiverse is almost completely decimated? (Not many.) Never mind the question of just how this stupidly powerful thing came into being in the first place.

In other words, there aren't going to be many new tactics showing up; it's essentially poking for missed immunities before teleporting through time or something for the kill. In particular, the big numbers are entirely unnecessary; either it dies to enough HP damage (where "enough" is defined as "genuinely infinite") or it doesn't, and so on and so forth.

[Battleship789]

Hmm. I guess we shall assume there own spells can effect themselfs (but if someone says why they wouldn't....well yea go with the correct ruling)

And considering how they are God's with miracle at will I guess we should assume infinite wealth. Or at least wealth by level.

Does the character know in advance where the Seraphs are, or must they be discovered? How far apart are all seven?

[ThiagoMartell]

Let's see what matters...
One side:
Knight 20. Ex immunity to death.
Factotum 20.
Artificer 20.

The other side:
Wizard 100 (I don't think the EPLH even has a progression for that, but whatever).

I use the omniscifer trick, locking myself into an infinite damage loop after casting Masochism. Then I use a spell with the Destroy seed, dealing infinite damage. My spell is cast as a standard action, targets and infinite number of creatures, has infinite range and plus infinite to beat SR. It's Fortitude for half, but half of infinity is still infinite. Just for fun, damage is in d20s and duration is permanent, so those creatures will take infinite damage forever.

[Harry]

We shall assume you both know of each others location. All seven are in seven different plane but can change planes when ever they wish.

Oh and randomguy, A universe has 999 HD. So he has/is the power of 1,586,149,399,399,399,399,399,399,399 universes.

So he kinda is the multiverse.........

Oh and abrogate destroys your strongest ability (epic spell casting)

Oh and even if you do destroy it......

Generate Spawn (Su): As a standard action at will, the Mortiverse may generate 52,818,775,000,000,000,000,000,000,000d10 spawn statistically equivalent to itself, only the spawn lack the ability to generate other spawn. Each spawn generated subtracts its hp from the Mortiverse’s total, although having infinite hp renders this moot. The Mortiverse may always choose to generate fewer spawn than a die roll indicates. Under normal circumstances, Mortiverse will choose to generate spawn during any round in which it is not actually fighting. Spawn remain in constant mental contact with the Mortiverse. Distance is not a factor, but communication cannot cross planar boundaries. Each spawn is capable f independent action and can even gain experience (good luck with that), but it obeys the commands of the Mortiverse without question. The Mortiverse may only command three spawn at a time, although it may create more if it so wishes. Free spawn may serve the Mortiverse willingly, but are truly autonomous entities. When the Mortiverse is slain, all its spawn are freed. A free spawn has a 5% chance to become a new Mortiverse.

Oh and IIRC he has the ability to make all chance based effects have the best result, always.

[Harry]

They have immunity to all conjuration, necromancy, illusion, and abjuration spells, even if epic. Is that seed in the evocation school? Can't remember.

[ThiagoMartell]

They have immunity to all conjuration, necromancy, illusion, and abjuration spells, even if epic. Is that seed in the evocation school? Can't remember.

Use a psion instead of a wizard then. Same thing.
Nevermind, the Destroy seed is in Transmutation.

[Harry]

transparency sucks doesn't it?


Edit: ah ok.....

[Harry]

You still have the problem of cosmic string and at will miracle.

[ThiagoMartell]

You still have the problem of cosmic string and at will miracle.
I'm immune to death. When they win initiative, I cast Celerity before they do anything, cast my unnamed spell, then I win. Miracle doesn't even come into play.

[Harry]

Sooooo......stalemate then? Or do you have a way to be physically bigger then them?

[ThiagoMartell]

Sooooo......stalemate then? Or do you have a way to be physically bigger then them?
With the Transform seed, I can either increase my size or decrease their size. Considering I also have an arbitrary number of actions due to my Factotum levels, that's hardly an issue.

[Battleship789]

Let's see what matters...
One side:
Knight 20. Ex immunity to death.
Factotum 20.
Artificer 20.

The other side:
Wizard 100 (I don't think the EPLH even has a progression for that, but whatever).

I use the omniscifer trick, locking myself into an infinite damage loop after casting Masochism. Then I use a spell with the Destroy seed, dealing infinite damage. My spell is cast as a standard action, targets 8 creatures (all the seraphim plus whatshisname), has infinite range and plus infinite to beat SR. It's Fortitude for half, but half of infinity is still infinite. Just for fun, damage is in d20s and duration is permanent, so those creatures will take infinite damage forever.

How are you getting enough time to research the Epic Spell? It takes an amount of time proportional to the Spellcraft DC to create the spell, so an infinite DC spell will take an infinite time to research. (Chain gate stuff!) Anyway, the Seraph will survive, as they are immune to the Transmutation school (which the Destroy seed is a part of.) Using the Reveal seed (8 times, so that there are 8 different mobile sensors to target the enemies) for the base and slapping on the Destroy seed to deal the damage in an incredibly large radius should work, as the school of an epic spell is chosen by the caster from the schools of the seeds (under the Determining School section on page 89 of the ELH), so use Divination in this case. Chain gate stuff in as needed to reduce the Spellcraft DC to 0, thus reducing the time/gold cost of the spell to zero.

My idea was to use the Dispel, Energy (Sonic) and Reveal seeds to kill the Seraphs (using Chain-Gated creatures to reduce the Spellcraft DC to 0): the Dispel seed to remove/supress all buffs/items, the Reveal seed to target all of the Seraphs (and find them, if necessary), and the Energy (Sonic) seed to actually kill them. I was using a Dragonwrought Kobold Commoner 1/Sorcerer 19 (with Chicken Infested for fun!) to achieve this, though I am sure it could be done at a lower level. I qualified for Epic Spellcasting using this trick (swiped from Brilliant Gameologist forumites Naldor and Doc Roc):


Shapechange/Polymorph into a dusk giant
Cannibalize Chickens to get 24 HD (the maximum allowed by a Dusk Giant: also, the Max Skill Rank limit is increased to 27)
Use a Limited Wish -> Psychic Reformation to reallocate skill points for 24 ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana)
DCFS a feat for Epic Spellcasting


By stature, if they mean physically bigger, I am sure there is a way around that. If by notoriety, by killing them I have gained greater notoriety than them.

Edit: The epic spell rules are indeed stoopid.

[ThiagoMartell]

How are you getting enough time to research the Epic Spell? It takes an amount of time proportional to the Spellcraft DC to create the spell, so an infinite DC spell will take an infinite time to research.
Genesis and my own plane with weird time traits, add Teleport Through Time if necessary.
Infinite DC is not necessary, you just need it to be aribitrarily high enough. I just don't want to spend more than 5 minutes on silliness like this :smallwink:

EDIT: Yeah, epic spells are silly.

[Randomguy]

They have immunity to all conjuration, necromancy, illusion, and abjuration spells, even if epic. Is that seed in the evocation school? Can't remember.

Couldn't you just make an epic spell that includes a transmutation seed, making it count as a dual school spell? And to be immune to a dual school spell, you need to be immune to both schools, right? Or is that not how it works at all?

[Battleship789]

Genesis and my own plane with weird time traits, add Teleport Through Time if necessary.
Infinite DC is not necessary, you just need it to be aribitrarily high enough. I just don't want to spend more than 5 minutes on silliness like this :smallwink:

Good point. :smallamused:


Couldn't you just make an epic spell that includes a transmutation seed, making it count as a dual school spell? And to be immune to a dual school spell, you need to be immune to both schools, right? Or is that not how it works at all?

The spellcaster chooses the school to be applied to the finished product in the case of an epic spell with seeds that give multiple magical schools.

[Harry]

Huh from what I see the only problem with your plan is they also have a week (with knowledge of you) of preparation.

They could in theory do anything from that Simulacrum trick posted earlier, to a trick similar to yours.

[ThiagoMartell]

Huh from what I see the only problem with your plan is they also have a week (with knowledge of you) of preparation.

They could in theory do anything from that Simulacrum trick posted earlier, to a trick similar to yours.

You missed Teleport Through Time and my demiplane. I actually unleash my plan before I start it.

[Harry]

ThiagoMartell.....I think you won.......CONGRATULATIONS!!!! ONE CREATURE DOWN ONE TO GO!

[Harry]

Nevermind...... I just remembered the mortiverse you was allowed level 100 gestalt. Its level 20 vs The seraphim. Sorry if I sound confusing busy while typing.

[ThiagoMartell]

Nevermind...... I just remembered the mortiverse you was allowed level 100 gestalt. Its level 20 vs The seraphim. Sorry if I sound confusing busy while typing.

Factotum 20 with dusk giant shenanigans and Dark Chaos shuffle does the same thing.

EDIT: In fact, with dusk giant shenanigans + DCFS + consumptive field I think this can be done by level 7.

[Harry]

Concrats Again!

[Battleship789]

Huh from what I see the only problem with your plan is they also have a week (with knowledge of you) of preparation.

They could in theory do anything from that Simulacrum trick posted earlier, to a trick similar to yours.

Well, there is changing the build to have 9ths in both psionics and arcane (using dual advancing PrCs and I believe the Dusk Giant trick would still be feasible). With that, the build could fire off the Time Regression power and get "save states" so that the character knows exactly what the beings are doing/have done to prepare, and the character can act accordingly. (Though this starts getting rather...interesting.)

Something like this could play out:

Round 1 (Assuming the character goes first or goes second and survives.): Survey the situation/fire off combo (via quickened epic spell) and then use Time Regression (if combo doesn't work/situation looks unfavorable).

Round 0: Fire off combo already listed/adapt combo to current situation (a new Epic spell can be created instantaneously and for free [both XP and gold] by reducing the Spellcraft DC to 0, so any situation that can be solved with epic magic :smallamused: can be done during this round.)

I'm not sure if this actually allows one to win outright, but it does allow a lot of options.

[Harry]

There's still one thing then that we haven't beaten.......

[ThiagoMartell]

There's still one thing then that we haven't beaten.......

Why can't the combo beat the mortiverse? Infinite damage with permanent duration, coming from the Divination school.

[Harry]

Abrogate. It destroys your strongest ability, then the ability that makes all its effects double (forgot its name) so your two strongest abilities are destroyed.

[ThiagoMartell]

Abrogate. It destroys your strongest ability, then the ability that makes all its effects double (forgot its name) so your two strongest abilities are destroyed.

Fine. So I get that in a scroll.
EDIT: As in, I use Time Regression, get a scroll (any magic item works - let's say, a wondrous item that casts it at-will) and wish for it. I could stop by my demiplane to craft it without wish and the Teleport Through Time as well.

Actually... define "ability". That's too broad. Anyway, with dusk giant allowing me to get infinite HD and epic spellcasting, those two are my 'strongest abilities', I'd think.

So... yeah. bye bye Mortiverse.

[Harry]

And the innocence ability makes it always attack first. No matter what.

[ThiagoMartell]

And the innocence ability makes it always attack first. No matter what.

Celerity. It attacks first, but I interrupt the attack with my spell, and the spell grants me a full round, and my full round is arbitrarily long thanks to Factotum.
I'm also immune to death.

[Harry]

Sure your strongest ability is spell casting not epic just spell casting in general.

Oh and Generate Spawn (Su): As a standard action at will, the Mortiverse may generate 52,818,775,000,000,000,000,000,000,000d10 spawn statistically equivalent to itself, only the spawn lack the ability to generate other spawn. Each spawn generated subtracts its hp from the Mortiverse’s total, although having infinite hp renders this moot. The Mortiverse may always choose to generate fewer spawn than a die roll indicates. Under normal circumstances, Mortiverse will choose to generate spawn during any round in which it is not actually fighting. Spawn remain in constant mental contact with the Mortiverse. Distance is not a factor, but communication cannot cross planar boundaries. Each spawn is capable f independent action and can even gain experience (good luck with that), but it obeys the commands of the Mortiverse without question. The Mortiverse may only command three spawn at a time, although it may create more if it so wishes. Free spawn may serve the Mortiverse willingly, but are truly autonomous entities. When the Mortiverse is slain, all its spawn are freed. A free spawn has a 5% chance to become a new Mortiverse.

the 818,775,000,000,000,000,000,000,000d10 spawn also have abrogate and they can summon your strongest enemy (the original) so double that number. Oh and the mime ability gives them your 2 current strongest abilities each.

[Harry]

It's not celerity. You are compelled to no matter what not attack it first.

[ThiagoMartell]

Sure your strongest ability is spell casting not epic just spell casting in general.
So I just craft items to use those spells. No biggie.
Also, epic spellcasting is explicitly a separate ability from spellcasting.


Oh and Generate Spawn (Su):
Infinite targets.


the 818,775,000,000,000,000,000,000,000d10 spawn also have abrogate and they can summon your strongest enemy (the original) so double that number. Oh and the mime ability gives them your to current strongest ability each.
Doesn't matter, they don't have my items, do they? And since I lost my abilities, all my spells come from my items. Or I could just use a spell with a Dispel seed to get my abilities back. Pick either option.


It's not celerity. You are compelled to no matter what not attack it first.
You don't understand. I allow it to attack first. Then, as an immediate action, I cast Celerity. I just interrupted it. Even if it does attack first, I am immune to death, so it does not matter. Between Time Regression, my demiplane and Teleport Through Time I can even try this as many times as I want.
Abrogate is a stupid 3rd party ability, but not even this works against a time traveling artificer, mate.

[Harry]

Since you have all your abilities abrogated and mimed how exactly will you beat this many versions of yourself+?

[ThiagoMartell]

Since you have all your abilities abrogated and mimed how exactly will you beat this many versions of yourself+?
You just keep saying 'abrogate', but what the hell does that even do? Doesn't it require an action to use (if it does, Celerity counters)? If it's a passive effect such as an aura, I use Craft Contingent Spell with a Dispel seed to remove it's effects, so I get my abilities back (at least for a single action) and a single action is all I need.

EDIT: Yeah, from what I gather, Abrogate is open ended and silly. But you have to be within range of the aura for it to work. So I cast my spell from my demiplane, since it has infinite range, and then I win. Also, the default for supernatural abilities is that it takes a standard action to activate. Since it never says otherwise, Abrogate takes a standard action. Therefore, even if it is somehow triggered, I just cast Celerity and interrupt that action.

[Ketiara]

The thing is, that golem was noticeably weak. For its challenge rating of course.

But, I'll bite. Sorta.
My character is whatever combination of Wizard, Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge gets me epic spells on both sides. If I have levels left, they are some Tome of Battle classes for those rare times when it is not worth it to spend a spell. Unless I have enough levels to grab epic psionics too, then I do that instead.

Note that I don't actually know the epic spells rules, so if somebody could be so nice as to quantify the following spells and confirm that this is possible, I'd be very grateful.
My first epic spell gives me an epic bonus to spellcraft. No drawbacks, no backslash, no help required, does not take an action, lasts 24 hours, and it gives the highest bonus that it can give while having the spellcraft DC be something I can hit by taking 10. It lasts all day so I'm doing it out of battle.
The second spell is the same, but the bonus is as high as I can hit while under the effect of the one above. Let's pretend I'm being reasonable and that the bonuses overlap, not stack, though I'm pretty sure there is a way to not do this.
Do the same for each spell until I have only 3 epic spells slots left. If I have manifesting, one of them has to move to psycraft OR the chain starts with psycraft, depending on which side is best for:
My last three spells are "kill something". No save, no resistance, no immunities, no defenses, can't be revived, can't planeshift back from wherever it ended, can't planeshift me to wherever it ended, etc etc etc. They are also nonactions without drawbacks. Also can be targeted remotely I guess, since we were assuming I know about these guys. If I somehow still don't have enough spellcraft to pull this spell off, sprinkle skill-boosting cheese to taste.
So, at some point during the day I take an instant to will myself to be able to will myself to be able to will myself to [...] be able to will those guys dead, and then I will those guys dead.
That burns my epic spells for the day, so I guess I take the rest of the day off.

well you deserve a break after tearing apart the fabric of the universe :D

[Aharon]

Why don't we pun-pun against these things, again? They are stupidly arbitrarily strong.

Use ay of the most powerful cheese, and they can be beaten:

Pun-Pun, The Savant Priest, Infinite Wish Loop, The 1d2 Crusader,
Infinite Caster Level, Low On Cash?, Bestow Power, Behold!,
The Perpetual Damage Machine, Attack of The Clones. The Nasty Gentlemen, The Twice Betrayer of Shar, The Nanobots Cometh, The Cheewrought Instabold, Cooking with Gas, Infinite Arcane Spells, The Beast, Emancipated Spawn, The H.I.V.E., Legion, Save Game Mechanic.

Mix and match for best results.

These monsters clearly aren't made to be beaten by any normal characters, so you have to resort to cheese of some kind - PO doesn't cut it.

[Bit Fiend]

Oh Lord, you really whipped out the Mortiverse? That thing lacks any form of style whatsoever. It was created by just stacking the most ridiculous templates from the most ridiculous third party book in existence. Basically it's literally the biggest God Mode Sue in history. Personally I would never touch anything created with the Immortal's Handbook with the maximum length of the Jingu Staff since it's all about having the biggest... let's say statblock, but tastes vary I guess. Just allow Pun-Pun against that thing, he'll end it in an instant with his arbitrarily high divine rank. At least Pun-Pun was created by pure 1st party RAW with methods theoretically available to any PC.

[Flickerdart]

Knight 20. Ex immunity to death.
Only to HP damage. They can still kill you any other number of juicy ways without ever touching your HP.

[ThiagoMartell]

Only to HP damage. They can still kill you any other number of juicy ways without ever touching your HP.
Irrelevant if you've seen the rest of the thing.

[Flickerdart]

Irrelevant if you've seen the rest of the thing.
Your thing assumes that they don't have any way of getting around your Celerity, which is not going to be the case if they know you're coming a week in advance. Including knowing that you travelled back in time, because that's how foreknowledge works. It wouldn't be foreknowledge if doing something different made it change. One week before you arrive back in time, the angels know you do.

[Arcanist]

Your thing assumes that they don't have any way of getting around your Celerity, which is not going to be the case if they know you're coming a week in advance. Including knowing that you travelled back in time, because that's how foreknowledge works. It wouldn't be foreknowledge if doing something different made it change. One week before you arrive back in time, the angels know you do.

Odin has foreknowledge of how all the God's are going to die and he can't do jack diddly about it. Sometimes things are going to happen and you just won't be able to stop them... You can try of course, but thats the thing about being helpless to stop it... You can't... Unless of course you wanna be a jerk and do the exact same thing that they're going to do a week in advance... but that is just plain hilarious and I encourage you to do it!

Ah well... some people are just stubborn to the inevitable... :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

I'm not saying they would stop him from teleporting back in time. I'm saying that they will have had a week to prepare before that happens.

[Spuddles]

This thing would be easier to read if you just wrote +infinity to everything instead of typing out stupid big numbers for every stat.

But anywho: You've got epic spellcasting available at a crazy high level. You can spend a few months making ice assassins of yourself and using them all to fuel a ritual strong enough to end the entire multiverse.

There is a qualitative difference between a large number and an infinte one. As far as I am aware, no dnd build other than something involving manipulate form has a truly infinite anything. They just have access to an arbitrarily large number of actions or damage.

For instance, if this thing really had infinite hp, then a d2 crusader couldn't kill it. Otherwise, if it just has an arbitrarily large amount of HP, then you just do an arbitrarily larger amount.

[Spuddles]

What's the time trait of the far realm? Isn't something like no time passes relative to the prime?

If you're a kaorti in a planar bubble, does that mean an arbitrary number of actions? Is that persistent time stop without the drawbacks?

[ThiagoMartell]

Your thing assumes that they don't have any way of getting around your Celerity, which is not going to be the case if they know you're coming a week in advance. Including knowing that you travelled back in time, because that's how foreknowledge works. It wouldn't be foreknowledge if doing something different made it change. One week before you arrive back in time, the angels know you do.

Would the vecna blooded template avoid that?

[olentu]

Would the vecna blooded template avoid that?

I don't think so. As I recall vecna blooded only blocks divination spells which portfolio sense is not, if I recall correctly.

[rweird]

Get DvR 20+ from Ice Assassins, create an Ice Assassin Wish Shapechange Wish/Autopass UMD to Ice Assassin Mortiverse, Make an Alex of the Ice Assassin, Make Ice Assassins of the Alex, use the ice assassin trick to give the Alexs DvR 20+, do infinite damage to Mortiverse, autopass save from divine rank, win, or have the final Ice Assassins use Alter Reality to dark chaos shuffle or something of the like to retrain a feat to epic spellcasting, they now have +∞ on spellcraft checks, they can destroy him no-save. This could be done at level 17, no gesalt required (Wizard 17 w/ shapechange, you probably can get shapechange earlier). It'd need something like nine hours to do it tops.

The same could be done to the first challenge excepts that they have shapechange at will and could do the same thing, though they have four actions each every round and can match you in every way like that. I personally thing the first challenge is much harder due to them being played smart, though assuming Mortiverse has the same time to prepare as we do, we couldn't beat him either.

[kardar233]

There is a qualitative difference between a large number and an infinte one. As far as I am aware, no dnd build other than something involving manipulate form has a truly infinite anything. They just have access to an arbitrarily large number of actions or damage.

For instance, if this thing really had infinite hp, then a d2 crusader couldn't kill it. Otherwise, if it just has an arbitrarily large amount of HP, then you just do an arbitrarily larger amount.

You are incorrect. The d2 Crusader does, in fact deal an infinite amount of damage, as the loop happens all at once (when damage is calculated). Lightning Maces are similar.

A loop such as GAF/Sanctum Spell is only arbitrarily high.

[rockdeworld]

You are incorrect. The d2 Crusader does, in fact deal an infinite amount of damage, as the loop happens all at once (when damage is calculated). Lightning Maces are similar.

A loop such as GAF/Sanctum Spell is only arbitrarily high.
I think he means because infinity minus infinity is undefined.

Also, I call shenanigans on the seraphims knowing about you appearing in the past a week before you do.

And possibly on the rest of this thread, for good measure.

[Harry]

A few thing that stops a lot of tricks.

First it has TWO sets of HP. The first one is for infinite damage. Once you get that you have 627,710,173,312,402,500,000,004,405,085,855,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000 hp left.


Second Evil Eye (Ex): Opponents of the Mortiverse suffer a -12 luck penalty to armor class, attack rolls, checks of any kind, damage rolls, DCs, initiative, saves, SR, and TR Furthermore, Mortiverse may choose the die RESULTS for ALL creatures within its divine aura. This effect has a range of 63,382,530,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,400 ft and there is no save.


Third Generate Spawn (Su): As a standard action at will, the Mortiverse may generate 52,818,775,000,000,000,000,000,000,000d10 spawn statistically equivalent to itself, only the spawn lack the ability to generate other spawn. Each spawn generated subtracts its hp from the Mortiverse’s total, although having infinite hp renders this moot. The Mortiverse may always choose to generate fewer spawn than a die roll indicates. Under normal circumstances, Mortiverse will choose to generate spawn during any round in which it is not actually fighting. Spawn remain in constant mental contact with the Mortiverse. Distance is not a factor, but communication cannot cross planar boundaries. Each spawn is capable f independent action and can even gain experience (good luck with that), but it obeys the commands of the Mortiverse without question. The Mortiverse may only command three spawn at a time, although it may create more if it so wishes. Free spawn may serve the Mortiverse willingly, but are truly autonomous entities. When the Mortiverse is slain, all its spawn are freed. A free spawn has a 5% chance to become a new Mortiverse.

This combined with one time lord ability (forgot its name) always gives it the best results when something has to do with chance, no matter what.

This means infinite mortiverses.

Fourth cosmic string. Basically you have to be physically bigger then it to kill it.

Fifth Immunities (Ex): ability damage, ability drain, anything requiring a Fortitude save unless it affects objects, critical hits, death effects, death from massive damage, disease, energy damage, energy drain, fatigue, MAGIC from this universe, mind-affecting effects, natural effects, non-epic magic, paralysis, PERMANENT DESTRUCTION, petrification, Physical INJURY by matter from this universe, poison, polymorphing, stunning, wounding.

Sixth Abrogate this takes away your two strongest abilities. Combined with spawn this can take away all your abilities.

Seventh Mime Ability gives the mortiverse your two strongest abilities combined with abrogate and spawn, this basically makes it. It+you vs you(with no class levels)

Eight Wish (Su): At will, Mortiverse can duplicate the effects of a wish at caster level 1,584,563,250,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Save DC 39,614,081,250,000,000,000,000,000,117. This is a supernatural ability.

Do I have to explain?

Ninth innocence you can NOT attack it first.

[Spuddles]

Interesting. The mortiverse is basically the DM. "Can I use a teleporting through time dusk giant cheating epic magic wielding level 20 kaorti in a planar bubble?" "yes, but the mort shows up first and you cease to exist."

Basically anything that comes close to threatening this thing gets unmade with time travel. The only way to win is not to play.

[Eugenides]

Interesting. The mortiverse is basically the DM. "Can I use a teleporting through time dusk giant cheating epic magic wielding level 20 kaorti in a planar bubble?" "yes, but the mort shows up first and you cease to exist."

Basically anything that comes close to threatening this thing gets unmade with time travel. The only way to win is not to play.

Yeah, I'm calling shenanigans. It's the stat block of DM fiat. Honestly, it decides all your die rolls (so any time you roll a die, it's a natural one and critical failure) and no matter what you do, it does everything first. You're not supposed to beat it.

Also, anecdote:
When I was very young I used to play AD&D with my parents, and they let me DM, once. They never did again because I hadn't learned the concept that I wasn't a player, so I took advantage of my infinite power and would wipe the floor with all the players by throwing things that were way too powerful at the party. This seems like something that 6-year old me would have cooked up: "It's got infinnity this and infinnity that, and no you can't do that because it does it first and if you kill it, it kills you instead and if you get anywhere near it you lose."

I mean, it even has arbitrary numbers like a 6-year old would produce: "39,614,081,250,000,000,000,000,000,117." That number is so arbitrarily large, yet at the same time so ridiculously specific.

[olentu]

Yeah, I'm calling shenanigans. It's the stat block of DM fiat. Honestly, it decides all your die rolls (so any time you roll a die, it's a natural one and critical failure) and no matter what you do, it does everything first. You're not supposed to beat it.

Also, anecdote:
When I was very young I used to play AD&D with my parents, and they let me DM, once. They never did again because I hadn't learned the concept that I wasn't a player, so I took advantage of my infinite power and would wipe the floor with all the players by throwing things that were way too powerful at the party. This seems like something that 6-year old me would have cooked up: "It's got infinnity this and infinnity that, and no you can't do that because it does it first and if you kill it, it kills you instead and if you get anywhere near it you lose."

I mean, it even has arbitrary numbers like a 6-year old would produce: "39,614,081,250,000,000,000,000,000,117." That number is so arbitrarily large, yet at the same time so ridiculously specific.

Huh, are those abilities in their current form actually explicitly spelled out in said handbook. If not you could always just argue back DM fiat with an ad hoc modifier to an epic spell. And since the modifier has not yet been made you are sure to win if you word it correctly.

[Eugenides]

Huh, are those abilities in their current form actually explicitly spelled out in said handbook. If not you could always just argue back DM fiat with an ad hoc modifier to an epic spell. And since the modifier has not yet been made you are sure to win if you word it correctly.

Yeah, they are apparently specifically spelled out. Harry's post right above mine has all the relevant data and more.

[Harry]

Are we done here? Has the mortiverse won? Or does someone want to try there hand at this thing?

[olentu]

Yeah, they are apparently specifically spelled out. Harry's post right above mine has all the relevant data and more.

That's not really the question that I asked, but if all those abilities do exist then that just makes things easier. If the abilities exist then they can be granted.

[Aharon]

It hasn't won, I go to Sigil and send out Simulacrums that laugh at it for all eternity. When it finally gets pissed and comes to Sigil, the Lady, the stats of which are more vague, but implied to be extremely high, destroys it :smalltongue:

[Harry]

Ah So the lady is just going to let you stay in sigil attack a powerful being that may fight her? Why would she do this? I don't think she likes you that much, besides the motto verse has infinite bluff and diplomacy. He can make the lady worship him:smalleek:

[Aharon]

But she has Diplomacy: Undefined, so DM adjudication is needed to decide wether the Mortiverse can do that. I bribe the DM with a pizza out of game to win :smallbiggrin:

[killianh]

If this thing is essentially DM fiat incarnate then I would assume the only way to truly beat it would be to flip the game board. The weak points I see that can be exploited are that the best of its immunities are in the form of "from this universe" so there are a few remaining options that we can use via RAW even. The first would be to open the far realm (which is noted to be infinite and outside of the universe, and wants to asimilate this universe(which would mean killing mort)) nigh infinite vs. infinite would keep both occupied forever, and since an encounter is considered resolved once a threat has been dealt with you can call this one over as mort has stats; the far realm is purely infinite with (being a universe) similar abilities in conjunction with the fact that the far realm doesn't have to follow the rules of the mortiverse and could render most of its influence moot.

In order to actually open said far realm (since mort is always watching I'll assume) what needs to be done is Pandorum from elder evils needs to be freed. He is a being "made from the spaces between the universe" so is also able to harm mort, and has no stat block for his completed form, though it is said that his mission is to kill the gods and that no force from this universe can stop him in his completed form. No force means mort can't do jack to stop him, and eventually he will either go and kill mort (as mort is a force of this universe and thus RAW cannot stop him) or realise that opening the far realm would be the only way to actually kill him and things will go from there.

As for how to get pandorum free without mort stopping you...I'll leave that to the posters that follow. More or less I simply wanted to show that there are ways to stop even the might of DM fiat, and it's all thanks to RAW source.

P.S. I would assume that homebrew would be outside of the normal D&D universe so simply making a homebrew that grants everything mort has and more could be an easy way of ending this one.

[Spuddles]

If this thing is essentially DM fiat incarnate then I would assume the only way to truly beat it would be to flip the game board. The weak points I see that can be exploited are that the best of its immunities are in the form of "from this universe" so there are a few remaining options that we can use via RAW even. The first would be to open the far realm (which is noted to be infinite and outside of the universe, and wants to asimilate this universe(which would mean killing mort)) nigh infinite vs. infinite would keep both occupied forever, and since an encounter is considered resolved once a threat has been dealt with you can call this one over as mort has stats; the far realm is purely infinite with (being a universe) similar abilities in conjunction with the fact that the far realm doesn't have to follow the rules of the mortiverse and could render most of its influence moot.

In order to actually open said far realm (since mort is always watching I'll assume) what needs to be done is Pandorum from elder evils needs to be freed. He is a being "made from the spaces between the universe" so is also able to harm mort, and has no stat block for his completed form, though it is said that his mission is to kill the gods and that no force from this universe can stop him in his completed form. No force means mort can't do jack to stop him, and eventually he will either go and kill mort (as mort is a force of this universe and thus RAW cannot stop him) or realise that opening the far realm would be the only way to actually kill him and things will go from there.

As for how to get pandorum free without mort stopping you...I'll leave that to the posters that follow. More or less I simply wanted to show that there are ways to stop even the might of DM fiat, and it's all thanks to RAW source.

P.S. I would assume that homebrew would be outside of the normal D&D universe so simply making a homebrew that grants everything mort has and more could be an easy way of ending this one.

With over 9000 divine ranks, the Mortiverse is aware of your plans before your ancestors evolved.

It's basically pun-pun with a statblock.

[killianh]

With over 9000 divine ranks, the Mortiverse is aware of your plans before your ancestors evolved.

It's basically pun-pun with a statblock.

Exactly. Like fighting pun-pun this assumes that you'll actually get the chance to try rather than having your entire race blotted from existence the microsecond the thought begins to cross your mind. If you can't even try then it's simply a DM attempting to justify fiat by adding a stat block to said DM fiat. If it weren't for the ability that lets it stop you before you think of starting it might be possible.

The only way to beat this thing is to use a character from outside of the game's universe that is unaffected by the laws of physics or the universe at large. in other words you need to pour a cup of bleach on the DM laptop while mort's sheet is open and call it a night.

[Eugenides]

The only way to beat this thing is to use a character from outside of the game's universe that is unaffected by the laws of physics or the universe at large. in other words you need to pour a cup of bleach on the DM laptop while mort's sheet is open and call it a night.
Yup. I'm basically at this point. Harry keeps saying "Has the Mort won?" Honestly, it has because any time you think of anything, we always come back to the part where due to its divine rank it knows as soon as you think of something and kills you. This is the basic version of making something, saying you can't kill it, and then acting surprised when people can't kill it.

[Spuddles]

Exactly. Like fighting pun-pun this assumes that you'll actually get the chance to try rather than having your entire race blotted from existence the microsecond the thought begins to cross your mind. If you can't even try then it's simply a DM attempting to justify fiat by adding a stat block to said DM fiat. If it weren't for the ability that lets it stop you before you think of starting it might be possible.

The only way to beat this thing is to use a character from outside of the game's universe that is unaffected by the laws of physics or the universe at large. in other words you need to pour a cup of bleach on the DM laptop while mort's sheet is open and call it a night.

You're going to want tetrochloroethylene if it's in pencil, acetone if it's permanent marker, or water if it's pen.

/solvent optimization

[killianh]

Yup. I'm basically at this point. Harry keeps saying "Has the Mort won?" Honestly, it has because any time you think of anything, we always come back to the part where due to its divine rank it knows as soon as you think of something and kills you. This is the basic version of making something, saying you can't kill it, and then acting surprised when people can't kill it.

I think an even more basic version would be:

DM Fiat
HP 1, BAB 0, Fort 0, Ref 0 Will 0, 10 in all stats

Special abilities: Knowledge of all, unstoppable
Special attacks: blot from existence

Knowledge of all: if anyone, anywhere, anywhen thinks about anything DMF doesn't like DMF knows about it immediately.

Unstoppable: DMF is immune to everything

Blot from existence: if DMF doesn't like you, you are removed from time or some horrible accident happens to you while you travel, usually involving your immunities becoming moot and everything you thought you knew about your abilities being wrong

[killianh]

You're going to want tetrochloroethylene if it's in pencil, acetone if it's permanent marker, or water if it's pen.

/solvent optimization

can I put this in my sig?

[DementedFellow]

Flight (Ex): The Mortiverse does not fly; rather, it is not subject to gravity in the same way other creatures are. It can move in any direction through any medium, disintegrating any solid matter in its path.



Vortex (Ex): Normally the Mortiverse somehow insulates itself from the environment and dampens its gravitational field, otherwise it would be at the center of a storm of wind and flying matter. If it chooses, however, the Mortiverse can suspend this insulation, causing an astronomical attraction to it. This vortex can suck all the air or other gases from a (10^795,001,780,500,000,000,000,000,000)-ft cube in a single round. Furthermore, all creatures within 10^795,001,780,500,000,000,000,000,000 ft of the Mortiverse who fail a DC 831,895,706,300,000,000,000,000,001,091 Reflex save are pulled into contact with the Mortiverse, taking damage equal to the Mortiverse's base slam damage.

Wish (Su): At will, Mortiverse can duplicate the effects of a wish at caster level 1,584,563,250,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Save DC 39,614,081,250,000,000,000,000,000,117. This is a supernatural ability.

Good luck playground, good luck.

Three ideas

First exploit its flight mechanic. It is huge. Get it to somehow trip over itself and it will dissolve itself.

Secondly find some way to exploit the Vortex ability

Thirdly exploit the wish mechanic. Make it read Twilight and it will wish it was dead.

[Spuddles]

can I put this in my sig?

Of course.

[rweird]

A few thing that stops a lot of tricks.

First it has TWO sets of HP. The first one is for infinite damage. Once you get that you have 627,710,173,312,402,500,000,004,405,085,855,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000 hp left.

The same is true with his damage expression, D2 him, then D2 him again.

Second Evil Eye (Ex): Opponents of the Mortiverse suffer a -12 luck penalty to armor class, attack rolls, checks of any kind, damage rolls, DCs, initiative, saves, SR, and TR Furthermore, Mortiverse may choose the die RESULTS for ALL creatures within its divine aura. This effect has a range of 63,382,530,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,400 ft and there is no save.

Clones of him should equalize that, or Abrogate will take all those abilities away, Abrogate first.

Third Generate Spawn (Su): As a standard action at will, the Mortiverse may generate 52,818,775,000,000,000,000,000,000,000d10 spawn statistically equivalent to itself, only the spawn lack the ability to generate other spawn. Each spawn generated subtracts its hp from the Mortiverse’s total, although having infinite hp renders this moot. The Mortiverse may always choose to generate fewer spawn than a die roll indicates. Under normal circumstances, Mortiverse will choose to generate spawn during any round in which it is not actually fighting. Spawn remain in constant mental contact with the Mortiverse. Distance is not a factor, but communication cannot cross planar boundaries. Each spawn is capable f independent action and can even gain experience (good luck with that), but it obeys the commands of the Mortiverse without question. The Mortiverse may only command three spawn at a time, although it may create more if it so wishes. Free spawn may serve the Mortiverse willingly, but are truly autonomous entities. When the Mortiverse is slain, all its spawn are freed. A free spawn has a 5% chance to become a new Mortiverse.

This combined with one time lord ability (forgot its name) always gives it the best results when something has to do with chance, no matter what.

This means infinite mortiverses.

You never said Mortiverse has a chance to prepare, so until he enters combat, only 1. I suppose you could use Aura of Chaos+Dvr 16+ of your Alex to create infinite clones of him, and then you can make Alexes of all the clones.

Fourth cosmic string. Basically you have to be physically bigger then it to kill it.

Thats why you make an Alex of him, then you give it a hat. :smalltongue:

Fifth Immunities (Ex): ability damage, ability drain, anything requiring a Fortitude save unless it affects objects, critical hits, death effects, death from massive damage, disease, energy damage, energy drain, fatigue, MAGIC from this universe, mind-affecting effects, natural effects, non-epic magic, paralysis, PERMANENT DESTRUCTION, petrification, Physical INJURY by matter from this universe, poison, polymorphing, stunning, wounding.

Just repeatedly destroy it for an really long time and repeat.

Sixth Abrogate this takes away your two strongest abilities. Combined with spawn this can take away all your abilities.

You don't fight it personally. Your clones of him Abrogate him.

Seventh Mime Ability gives the mortiverse your two strongest abilities combined with abrogate and spawn, this basically makes it. It+you vs you(with no class levels)

True, thats why you don't fight it personally

Eight Wish (Su): At will, Mortiverse can duplicate the effects of a wish at caster level 1,584,563,250,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Save DC 39,614,081,250,000,000,000,000,000,117. This is a supernatural ability.

Do I have to explain?

Yes, he has Wish at will, he won't use it until he is in combat, by which point it will be Abrogated. You have wish at will as well, the CL doesn't really matter.

Ninth innocence you can NOT attack it first.

Abrogate from his1 clones

Answers in Bold.

[Harry]

"When the Mortiverse is slain, all its spawn are freed. A free spawn has a 5% chance to become a new Mortiverse."

Doesn't matter if he is prepared or not. If you slain him he is reborn and multiplied.

How will you create clones of him without him knowing before hand? or the problem of immunity to non epic magic? and immunity to magic from this universe?

Oh and innocence prevents any malice. Such as creating clones of him and giving them hats:smallwink:

[Aharon]

@Harry:
What about the Pizza-bribe?

Also, the Mortiverse is Homebrew that isn't actually found in the Immortals Handbook.

[Gandariel]

I don't mean to offend, Harry, but this is getting ridiculous.
The abilities are NOT official d&d and make no sense.

first thing: what does this mean?


First it has TWO sets of HP. The first one is for infinite damage. Once you get that you have 627,710,173,312,402,500,000,004,405,085,855,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000 hp left.

That makes really no sense. He has infinite hp + that number? infinite plus any number is infinite.
Deal it an infinite amount of damage (1d2 crusader) and it's dead.


Another thing:

Immunities (Ex): .... MAGIC from this universe, ...., Physical INJURY by matter from this universe

This should mean it's invincible. can't be hit by anything.
Ice assassin? no, you make it with things from this universe.

The point is that d&d doesn't have multiple universes. It has multiple planes but only one universe, and you can't get out of it.
So again, this is NOT compatible with d&d 3.5.

The Abrogate, Mime and Innocence abilities (and also the "double whatever" ability) make NO sense (as you explained them), and they are NOT adaptable with d&d rules.
(What does "strongest ability" even mean, anyway?)

It's like if i said my charachter has an Ivory Mask (from Magic: the Gathering. You can't be targeted by spells or effects), and say I'm immune to all spells.

This of course makes no sense because the Ivory Mask card is NOT d&d content and hence it can't be properly translated.

[rweird]

"When the Mortiverse is slain, all its spawn are freed. A free spawn has a 5% chance to become a new Mortiverse."

Doesn't matter if he is prepared or not. If you slain him he is reborn and multiplied.

How will you create clones of him without him knowing before hand? or the problem of immunity to non epic magic? and immunity to magic from this universe?

Oh and innocence prevents any malice. Such as creating clones of him and giving them hats:smallwink:

If it says it prevents any malice, that is according to my dictionary:

malice |ˈmaləs|
noun
the intention or desire to do evil; ill will : I bear no malice toward anybody.
• Law wrongful intention, esp. as increasing the guilt of certain offenses.
You don't kill Mortiverse for the desire to do evil, or out of ill will, you do it out of duty. Or you could just do all that to make a super-powerful army, and once Mortiverse attacks, respond with overwhelming Abrogation till he no longer has any abilities, or stats, or anything, or until he is super weak and the others kill him.

To overcome this universe immunity, fluff you from coming from another universe. Start out with Snow from this universe as well, or do all the ice assassining pregame if it is allowed.

The clone and him will negate each other, heck, if he makes clones they'll all negate each others abilities anyways because I'd think that they'd all want to rule the universe, and killing him is the way to do that, so they'd all loose all there abilities, Abrogate included, I'd guess that all of that would mean that they'd all loose everything, or if that doesn't work, the duplicate would. His immunity would protect from Ice Assassin, because it doesn't target him directly, and the clones then would take all his abilities away. The spawn would all be killed the same way, or my clones would use Evil Eye to make the chance not succeed/Abrogate that ability. Maybe I'd make an Epic spell that grants immunity to Abrogate.

Learning of him, you said we had a year to prepare, I assume that means we know what we'd prepare for, though if it doesn't any divination that doesn't target him directly, (Summon a weird, give it a high enough DvR to autopass int checks from contact other plane, have it spam contact other plane as a free action until you know everything there is to know ever).

[molten_dragon]

I haven't followed the whole thread, but is there a reason that pun-pun can't beat the mortiverse? He's got a year to prepare, and any abilities that the mortiverse has pun-pun can copy. So essentially all of the truly infinite stuff would cancel out, and pun-pun can make his numbers without the infinite aspects tacked on bigger than the mortiverse's.

[TuggyNE]

I haven't followed the whole thread, but is there a reason that pun-pun can't beat the mortiverse? He's got a year to prepare, and any abilities that the mortiverse has pun-pun can copy. So essentially all of the truly infinite stuff would cancel out, and pun-pun can make his numbers without the infinite aspects tacked on bigger than the mortiverse's.

The OP, for whatever reason, specifically excluded Pun-Pun ("and the like"). Presumably to avoid trivial solutions to an inelegantly overpowered problem?

[Eugenides]

If it says it prevents any malice, that is according to my dictionary:
To overcome this universe immunity, fluff you from coming from another universe. Start out with Snow from this universe as well, or do all the ice assassining pregame if it is allowed.


I think this cinches it. You're a super-badass from another universe. Hell, by being from another universe you could likely argue that the Mortiverse doesn't even know you're coming, and with a year to prepare, you'e got this in the bag.

[molten_dragon]

The OP, for whatever reason, specifically excluded Pun-Pun ("and the like"). Presumably to avoid trivial solutions to an inelegantly overpowered problem?

Considering that he then proceeded to post the Mortiverse, I'm not sure "pun-pun and the like" is off the table any more.

[The Glyphstone]

"When the Mortiverse is slain, all its spawn are freed. A free spawn has a 5% chance to become a new Mortiverse."

Doesn't matter if he is prepared or not. If you slain him he is reborn and multiplied.

How will you create clones of him without him knowing before hand? or the problem of immunity to non epic magic? and immunity to magic from this universe?

Oh and innocence prevents any malice. Such as creating clones of him and giving them hats:smallwink:

If you have infinite attackers doing infinite damage, you can kill infinite mortiverses and their infinite spawn, and since every spawn only has a 1 in 20 chance of becoming a new Mortiverse capable spawning, you kill the original, see how many of its clones become copies, kill them in the same turn before they get a chance to use their own Spawn ability, then work on the spawn that didn't Mortify.

[olentu]

Considering that he then proceeded to post the Mortiverse, I'm not sure "pun-pun and the like" is off the table any more.

He also opened up level 100(0?) gestalt with any cheese but manipulate form as I recall. That gives us epic magic which under the definition of any cheese automatically gives the win. Presumably things have changed.

[TuggyNE]

Considering that he then proceeded to post the Mortiverse, I'm not sure "pun-pun and the like" is off the table any more.

Pun-Pun is only for the DM to wield? :smalltongue:

[Bit Fiend]

Pun-Pun is only for the DM to wield? :smalltongue:

Nah, this thing ain't got half the style of Pun-Pun. It's more along the lines of a Dire Gouda.

[TuggyNE]

It's more along the lines of a Dire Gouda.

Okay, I LOL'd. :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, basically! Ah well.

[ShurikVch]

Several things:

1. What's are the "Octodecaogdoad" and "Black-Hole-Spawned" ? I look in the IH and not found it.
2. Abilities of Mortiverse seemed to change from post to post.:smallamused: Better to use the "primary source" (http://www.enworld.org/forum/2873260-post1.html)
3. Statement that Mortiverse created only on IH material is blatant lie. Templates "Apocalyptic" and "Legion" are from "Book of Templates 3.5".
4. The "Legion" template is violation of fluff from IH. It says that in any single moment of time can exist only one "Amidah". And this stupid spawning ability makes ridiculously many of creatures and they ALL have this templates.

And the best way to deal with such huge pile of numbers (and INFINITies) is to use something which exist, but not defined. Mention of Lady of Pain was a good start. There are my suggestions:
First-
1. Learn the Last Word.
2. Say it to the Mortiverse.
3. You win!
Second-
1. Gain full levels in the Fiend of Possession.
2. Find the place which store the body of Pandorym.
3. Possess it.
4. Kill the Mortiverse.
5. Break the Cosmic String...

One of the possible more "game-mechanical" decisions - use the diplomansy:smallsmile: Сonvince the Mortiverse to take a little friendly walk on the Plane of Positive Energy. Several turns - and it go supernova:smallbiggrin:

[ThiagoMartell]

Several things:

1. What's are the "Octodecaogdoad" and "Black-Hole-Spawned" ? I look in the IH and not found it.
2. Abilities of Mortiverse seemed to change from post to post.:smallamused: Better to use the "primary source" (http://www.enworld.org/forum/2873260-post1.html)
3. Statement that Mortiverse created only on IH material is blatant lie. Templates "Apocalyptic" and "Legion" are from "Book of Templates 3.5".
4. The "Legion" template is violation of fluff from IH. It says that in any single moment of time can exist only one "Amidah". And this stupid spawning ability makes ridiculously many of creatures and they ALL have this templates.

And the best way to deal with such huge pile of numbers (and INFINITies) is to use something which exist, but not defined. Mention of Lady of Pain was a good start. There are my suggestions:
First-
1. Learn the Last Word.
2. Say it to the Mortiverse.
3. You win!
Second-
1. Gain full levels in the Fiend of Possession.
2. Find the place which store the body of Pandorym.
3. Possess it.
4. Kill the Mortiverse.
5. Break the Cosmic String...

One of the possible more "game-mechanical" decisions - use the diplomansy:smallsmile: Сonvince the Mortiverse to take a little friendly walk on the Plane of Positive Energy. Several turns - and it go supernova:smallbiggrin:

*slowclap*
You win this thread, sir.

[Arcanist]

I'd hate to be THAT guy! But...


Immunities (Ex): ability damage, ability drain, anything requiring a Fortitude save unless it affects objects, critical hits, death effects, death from massive damage, disease, energy damage, energy drain, fatigue, magic from this universe, mind-affecting effects, natural effects, non-epic magic, paralysis, permanent destruction, petrification, physical injury by matter from this universe, poison, polymorphing, stunning, wounding.

Because it is immune to Permanent Destruction the... THING will be back in a few hours (or seconds...)

[The Glyphstone]

I don't even know what template gives Immunity to "magic from this universe" and "physical injury from this universe".

[rockdeworld]

I don't even know what template gives Immunity to "magic from this universe" and "physical injury from this universe".
Along those same lines, what template gives INFINITE for stats and HP?

Well, it's a theoretical optimization with divine ranks. What can you expect?

However, it's worth noting that there is a way to bring infinite HP to 0.

1. Assume that there are infinitely many D2 Crusaders, and Efreeti, and people who are neither.
2. Gate in an Efreeti, wish for any other person and two rings of infinite Gates (as per the Wish, of the Wish and the Word). Hand him one of the rings before making the third wish.
3. He performs step 2.
4. You and each other non-D2 Crusader gate in Efreeti and wish for another person, a ring of infinite gates, and a D2 crusader. Hand the other guy the ring before making the third wish.
4.5. The D2 Crusaders start attacking the target when they enter play.
5. Each new guy performs step 2.
6. Repeat 4 & 5.

You have 1, then 3, then 7, then 15, then 31 etc. D2 Crusaders dealing infinite damage every turn. That's Sum(2^n).
Sum(2^n) grows very quickly. Write down infinity as Sum(1), then infinity - (the damage being dealt) = Sum(1) - Sum(1)*Sum(2^n) = Sum(1)*(1 - Sum (2^n))
1-Sum(2^n) < 0, ergo the above is a positive times a negative, which is negative.
In other words, the target's HP is less than 0.

Now the trick is getting the Crusaders in there to hit the Mortiverse, then preventing it from coming back. I can't solve all these problems though, I only play core.