Explain LA to me, please.

[DarkEternal]

So, in my latest adventure, a player decided he wanted to play a Goliath. The adventure starts at level 7, and Goliath is a +1 race. So far, so good. However, what kind of a hp does he get at first level, the one where a lot of races have racial hit dice? Goliath has none stacked, so I don't get it. Does he skip one level of health? Does he get hp of their favored class on first level? If he skips one level, what if you start the game at level 1, do they have no hp for the entire level? How does that work?

[grarrrg]

So, in my latest adventure, a player decided he wanted to play a Goliath. The adventure starts at level 7, and Goliath is a +1 race. So far, so good. However, what kind of a hp does he get at first level, the one where a lot of races have racial hit dice? Goliath has none stacked, so I don't get it. Does he skip one level of health? Does he get hp of their favored class on first level? If he skips one level, what if you start the game at level 1, do they have no hp for the entire level? How does that work?

LA is an adjustment for having bonuses roughly equivalent to a level in a class. You do not get any HP/Saves/Bab/etc... from LA (unless it is explicitly given).
This makes races/templates with High-LA are almost universally a bad choice.
Mid-LA can be an "ok" choice for non-casters.
Low-LA can be a "good" choice for a non-caster, and/or an "ok" choice for Casters, but still questionable due to the lost casting.

In the case of LA+1 Goliath, he will be 1 class level behind everyone else (unless you use LA buyoff).
Also, the minimum possible Effective level for a Goliath is 2. It has LA +1, and it must have at least 1 class level.
You cannot play a Goliath, or any LA +X race at level 1.

Most Races/Templates are grossly over-costed in terms of LA making the majority poor choices, there are some decent ones though. Goliath being one of them.
Another good example of a solid "melee" template is Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e). +2 STR, +4 CON, +3 Natural Armor and DR 8/Adamantine more than make up for a lost level in a melee-heavy class. But the -2 to ALL Mentals paired with the lost caster level makes it a horrendous choice for a Caster.

[DarkEternal]

Ahhh, I see. That's a bit odd, since you basically can't play a class you wanted unless the starting level is high enough(without LA buyoff, that is), Ok, thanks,

[Zombimode]

Well, concerning the Goliath, you could be an ECL 2 character with 0 exp.

[Gavinfoxx]

No, a goliath STARTS at 1000 xp. ECL 2 = 1000 xp.

[ericgrau]

Most Races/Templates are grossly over-costed in terms of LA making the majority poor choices, there are some decent ones though. Goliath being one of them.

For a high optimization group. For other groups the DM should be wary and make sure the player compares well to the other players before allowing it.

Ya basically you can't play a LA 1 race at level 1. You can play it at level 7 though. He has 6 actual class levels for game play purposes but for leveling purposes he is level 7.

[Zombimode]

No, a goliath STARTS at 1000 xp. ECL 2 = 1000 xp.

Sure. But if you want to play an LA +1 race at level 1 you could just start at 0 exp and then gain your first level up at 3000 exp, when everyone else get their 2nd level up.

It was a suggestion, not a statement about the rules.

[nyjastul69]

There's no reason an ECL2 character can't adventure with an ECL1 party. The rules are designed to handle such a small disparity in power.

[Yora]

With LA +1 I don't see a problem either. Everyone starts with 0 XP and the character with LA +1 only starts getting a second class level at 3,000 XP rather than 1,000 XP.
Won't work for races with 4 racial HD and LA +5, but if it's just a single level at the start of the game, there shouldn't be a noticable problem.

[mattie_p]

There's no reason an ECL2 character can't adventure with an ECL1 party. The rules are designed to handle such a small disparity in power.


With LA +1 I don't see a problem either. Everyone starts with 0 XP and the character with LA +1 only starts getting a second class level at 3,000 XP rather than 1,000 XP.
Won't work for races with 4 racial HD and LA +5, but if it's just a single level at the start of the game, there shouldn't be a noticable problem.

This is the reason a lot of races with LA have what is called Savage Progression.

Wizards has some articles on them here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) for other "common" LA races. Half-giant is similar in a lot of ways to Goliath, check Complete Psionic p 148 for its Savage Progression (there called Racial Class). It could easily be adapted into Goliath.

[nyjastul69]

This is the reason a lot of races with LA have what is called Savage Progression.

Wizards has some articles on them here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) for other "common" LA races. Half-giant is similar in a lot of ways to Goliath, check Complete Psionic p 148 for its Savage Progression (there called Racial Class). It could easily be adapted into Goliath.

I'm fully aware of savage progressions. There just doesn't seem to be a reason to use them with such a small disparity in ECL. It's really not much different than a party that has had a near TPK with only a cleric surviving whom then casts Raise Dead on the rest of the party. They all lose a level putting the cleric at an ECL+1 vs. the rest of the party. The 'lost level' will be regained fairly quickly. I wouldn't bother worrying about a single level difference at any 'level' of play or optimization.

[mattie_p]

I'm fully aware of savage progressions. There just doesn't seem to be a reason to use them with such a small disparity in ECL. It's really not much different than a party that has had a near TPK with only a cleric surviving whom then casts Raise Dead on the rest of the party. They all lose a level putting the cleric at an ECL+1 vs. the rest of the party. The 'lost level' will be regained fairly quickly. I wouldn't bother worrying about a single level difference at any 'level' of play or optimization.

So I could play a Mineral Warrior Water Orc Whirling Pounce-Barbarian at level 1? Cool. Where do I sign up?

[nyjastul69]

So I could play a Mineral Warrior Water Orc Whirling Pounce-Barbarian at level 1? Cool. Where do I sign up?

Assuming a Mineral Warrior Water Orc Whirling Pounce-Barbarian is ECl 1, of course. If it's an ECL2 character there shouldn't be a problem either. The others will quickly catch up. Feel free to add your signature to anything you choose to.

[mattie_p]

It is ECL 2, with +6 Str, +6 Con, -4 to all mental stats, +3 Natural Armor, and DR 8/Adamantine with two attacks per round and Pounce. +10 to Str when raging. Take Extra Rage at ECL 1.

I'd be hard pressed as a DM to balance that into the party for at least a few levels, much less a level 1 party.

[grarrrg]

So I could play a Mineral Warrior Water Orc Whirling Pounce-Barbarian at level 1? Cool. Where do I sign up?

You missed Dragonborn....

[nyjastul69]

It is ECL 2, with +6 Str, +6 Con, -4 to all mental stats, +3 Natural Armor, and DR 8/Adamantine with two attacks per round and Pounce. +10 to Str when raging. Take Extra Rage at ECL 1.

I'd be hard pressed as a DM to balance that into the party for at least a few levels, much less a level 1 party.

My post wasn't as clear as it could have been. When I said "at any 'level' of play or optimization." I should have said: at any ECL with equal optimization amongst characters". If at an equal optimization level said orc is still over-powered, I think it speaks more to the issue of why is that orc only ECL2. It could be that the orc is the problem, not the leveling system. I don't know from which splat books you built this guy, or if it assumes optional rules, such as those given in Unearthed Arcana.

[mattie_p]

Whirling Frenzy and Water Orc are from Unearthed Arcana/SRD optional rules. Pounce is from Complete Champion - Spirit Lion Totem (p 40 something). Mineral Warrior is from Forgotten Realms Underdark, (p 90 something).

Dragonborn is fun too (Races of the Dragon, I believe). If you want to give him another LA, add Feral from Savage Species (p 111 if I remember correctly) for Fast healing 2, which increases/scales a little with level. An ECL 3 character gains the same exp as an ECL 1 character, right?

Or go crazy with templates on the base animal/beast of the tauric template. But that is where it really gets absurd. Honestly, with all the options out there, DMs have enough to go with to create a savage progression, provide alternative options, or just ban a particular option. Not all options are right for all games.

[nyjastul69]

Whirling Frenzy and Water Orc are from Unearthed Arcana/SRD optional rules. Pounce is from Complete Champion - Spirit Lion Totem (p 40 something). Mineral Warrior is from Forgotten Realms Underdark, (p 90 something).

Dragonborn is fun too (Races of the Dragon, I believe). If you want to give him another LA, add Feral from Savage Species (p 111 if I remember correctly) for Fast healing 2, which increases/scales a little with level. An ECL 3 character gains the same exp as an ECL 1 character, right?

Or go crazy with templates on the base animal/beast of the tauric template. But that is where it really gets absurd. Honestly, with all the options out there, DMs have enough to go with to create a savage progression, provide alternative options, or just ban a particular option. Not all options are right for all games.

I lied, I actually knew where pounce came from. (I wasn't entirely sure of the others though) So we agree I guess. Amongst equal opusers a single difference in ECL isn't too much to sweat, or is it? I belive if so then the issue lies in the actual build as opposed to the system that levels characters. By which, I mean, said orc probably shouldn't be considered an ECL 2 character. I'm not too worried either way. In a low-mid op game the leveling system seems to work. Everything seems to get a bit wonky at high op, at least it does to me. Wonky is not to be construed as a negative in this context, just slightly weird.

[mattie_p]

I think at lower levels, such a system gives a boost to melee, as +LA templates can add far more to a level 1 melee than to a caster. At higher levels, casters generally can overtake them anyway as far as utility.

But a single melee character such as I described can unbalance encounters to the extent that a challenging encounter for the guy I described above is deadly for other characters, casters or not. Caution is certainly required.

The discretion of the DM is necessary, which would be the case anyway, as the DM would be overruling RAW in order to allow such a character in a game starting at ECL 1 anyway.

[grarrrg]

An ECL 3 character gains the same exp as an ECL 1 character, right?

No.
A 1 class level +2 LA character counts as a level 3 character for Experience purposes. Higher (effective) level characters not only take more experience to level, but also gain proportionally less EXP than lower level characters (some DM's may handwave this last part).
This is the MAIN REASON behind LA.

[JustPlayItLoud]

No.
A 1 class level +2 LA character counts as a level 3 character for Experience purposes. Higher (effective) level characters not only take more experience to level, but also gain proportionally less EXP than lower level characters (some DM's may handwave this last part).
This is the MAIN REASON behind LA.

No, an ECL 3 character gains the same experience as an ECL 1 character. Check the tables in the DMG, the first entry isn't level 1, it's level 1-3

[only1doug]

No.
A 1 class level +2 LA character counts as a level 3 character for Experience purposes. Higher (effective) level characters not only take more experience to level, but also gain proportionally less EXP than lower level characters (some DM's may handwave this last part).
This is the MAIN REASON behind LA.

An ECL 3 Character has exactly the same XP gain rate as an ECL 1 Character, the entry on the DMG XP calculation table is specific ECL1-3 is a single entry, each other level is a seperate distinct entry. ECL 3 Characters do not gain less XP from the same encounter as a L1 character.

[mattie_p]

No.
A 1 class level +2 LA character counts as a level 3 character for Experience purposes. Higher (effective) level characters not only take more experience to level, but also gain proportionally less EXP than lower level characters (some DM's may handwave this last part).
This is the MAIN REASON behind LA.

I was referring to the table in the DMG, page 38. All characters of ECL 1-3 gain exactly the same experience per encounter, regardless. Which is exactly why the DM should not allow an ECL 2 or 3 PC in an ECL 1 party (NPCs of various sorts for story purposes should not be counted in this, of course)

[Hylas]

I'll take a stab at explaining it.

Let's say you wanted to be a wizard and you're starting at level 5, but you decide to play a race with a +3 LA. You would then be a level 2 wizard with a powerful race.

You're treated as level 2 for all purposes of HD, level-based effects, and spells that you cast. This includes the number of HP that you have.

You're treated as level 5 for all purposes of gaining XP and GP.

[Zombimode]

Which is exactly why the DM should not allow an ECL 2 or 3 PC in an ECL 1 party (NPCs of various sorts for story purposes should not be counted in this, of course)

Having the higher ECL character starting with 0 exp however makes it very unproblematic.

[mattie_p]

Having the higher ECL character starting with 0 exp however makes it very unproblematic.

I'll bite. I'll play the Feral Mineral Warrior Water Orc Whirling Pounce-Barb with 0 xp, you play anything else, ECL 1-3.

I'll play 25 PB. Str 18, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 8. After racial and template adjustments: Str 28 (32 when raging), Dex 8, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 4.

16 HP. DR 8/Adamantine. Fast Healing 2. +9 Natural Armor.

Please show me a character or party that this monster would fit into well. Or, for that matter, show me the standard level 1 4-member party that could deal with one of these without danger of fatality. (yes, aware of color spray, sleep, etc. No guarantee to win initiative at level 1, though)

I suggest it is a problem. At level 20, no problem, stack those templates to the roof. At level 1? It borders on absurd.

[Zombimode]

I'll bite. I'll play the Feral Mineral Warrior Water Orc Whirling Pounce-Barb with 0 xp, you play anything else, ECL 1-3.

I'll play 25 PB. Str 18, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 8. After racial and template adjustments: Str 28 (32 when raging), Dex 8, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 4.

And now try again with a reasonable character you actually want to play.
Like a Goliath Fighter 1.

There ares some combinations of races and templates that will create very "powerful" (if one sided) characters. The vast majority of LA+1 or +2 races/templates do not.

My point still stands. For most applications, just letting the guy with the LA+1 race in an otherwise LA +0 party start with 0 exp is an easy and unproblematic solution to allow a slightly higher ELC character to start with an otherwise ECL 1 party.

[mattie_p]

And now try again with a reasonable character you actually want to play.
Like a Goliath Fighter 1.

I guess you can play it that way, just be aware of potential consequences. As I hope I have demonstrated.

[SaintRidley]

I'll bite. I'll play the Feral Mineral Warrior Water Orc Whirling Pounce-Barb with 0 xp, you play anything else, ECL 1-3.

I'll play 25 PB. Str 18, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 8. After racial and template adjustments: Str 28 (32 when raging), Dex 8, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 4.

16 HP. DR 8/Adamantine. Fast Healing 2. +9 Natural Armor.

Please show me a character or party that this monster would fit into well. Or, for that matter, show me the standard level 1 4-member party that could deal with one of these without danger of fatality. (yes, aware of color spray, sleep, etc. No guarantee to win initiative at level 1, though)


Initiative really is the deciding factor in one of these against a level one party.

Really, if it goes the way of the party, the party can win. If not, well, splat one party and your orc probably just gained a level and can go join a level 3 party and have fun.

If initiative goes the wizard's way, Color Spray followed by an Inflict Light from the cleric and attacks from the fighter and rogue (who gets sneak attack), followed by a magic missile, another Inflict Light, and coup de grace from both fighter and rogue should put it down. Two rounds to victory, if the wizard wins initiative.


As you said, no guarantee for initiative, but initiative really is the deciding factor.

[Zombimode]

I guess you can play it that way, just be aware of potential consequences. As I hope I have demonstrated.

You haven't. You have created an extremely one sided character using a combination of race, template, class and ACF that all are considered very strong for a melee focused character. But the result would actually pretty useless is many campaigns.
You also have to ignore its mental abilities when playing the character, otherwise all your character does is starring unwittingly at the wall.

The only case where a character like this would be even remotely viable, is a campaign containing almost no other interaction with the world besides combat encounters (and even then, this character could not participate in tactical discussions).


Even if you could present me an totally overpowered ECL 3 character that is actually playable in a normal campaign (that is one that contains interactions with the world that aren't combat encounters and also assumes interaction between the player characters), this would be a special case. PunPun is also rules legal. You still don't bring him at a table.

I think you are just over thinking this.

[Prime32]

Relevant link (brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044)

LA in general creates a lot of hassle with your HD/BAB/hp/saving throws being lower than the rest of the party's (*cough* blasphemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blasphemy.htm) *cough*), even if you choose one of the few races/templates with good returns.

[Courier6]

I'll bite. I'll play the Feral Mineral Warrior Water Orc Whirling Pounce-Barb with 0 xp, you play anything else, ECL 1-3.

I'll play 25 PB. Str 18, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 8. After racial and template adjustments: Str 28 (32 when raging), Dex 8, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 4.

16 HP. DR 8/Adamantine. Fast Healing 2. +9 Natural Armor.

Please show me a character or party that this monster would fit into well. Or, for that matter, show me the standard level 1 4-member party that could deal with one of these without danger of fatality. (yes, aware of color spray, sleep, etc. No guarantee to win initiative at level 1, though)

I suggest it is a problem. At level 20, no problem, stack those templates to the roof. At level 1? It borders on absurd.

This character has many weaknesses, in addition to the obvious solution of just casting Sleep/Color Spray/Etc. A level 1 anthropomorphic bat druid can fly, making you effectively useless, as for ways to kill you, with entangle and produce flame it can burn you to death, with entangle your dex is reduced to 4, a Large monsterous centipede (ACF found Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040705a)) can reduce you to 0 dex in 1-3 rounds. Or he could shoot you with a few Adamantine arrows. He cold also self-buff and try to beat you to death, but that would be risk.

[mattie_p]

Please note whirling frenzy does not, apparently, restrict a barb to melee attacks, can still get ranged attacks. I don't know why everyone forgets this.

Also note I am not advocating this character, merely suggesting an example as to why ignoring LA might be problematic. Feel free to ignore RAW (specifically in this case, using a level adjusted character in an otherwise level 1 party) within your campaign at your own risk. I do suggest savage progession, and in fact don't allow more than +1 LA at all in my campaigns.

@Prime32: blasphemy only allows a will save for the extraplanar banishment effect, not for any of its other effects.

[Courier6]

Double post

[ericgrau]

X can kill it is not an argument against a character. In a party being weak to 5% of typical monster attacks is pretty irrelevant. Flight is irrelevant unless you coordinate and get it for the whole party. Both sometimes matters for duels, but even then it's temporary until you can tack on a work-around.

Mineral warrior, goliath, water orc and half-minotaur are better than other options and that's why they're in so many builds. To allow them is to effectively make all other melee templates and races obsolete. They are of a higher optimization level than most gaming groups, meaning the simple solution is to ban those 4 so now players can use the other 900 without being gimped. In core the other 900 do keep up; but groups with moderate optimization might need to buff them slightly. In higher optimization groups you still need to do something to beef up the other 900 to match those 4.

Ya I know there might be 10 stellar races/templates not 4 if you do a bit of work (some have restrictions), but same thing applies.

[Prime32]

@Prime32: blasphemy only allows a will save for the extraplanar banishment effect, not for any of its other effects.I was referring to the lower HD. When fighting an enemy spellcaster of equal level, your party members will be dazed for 1 round, a goliath will have its combat ability crippled, and a vampire will die instantly. There's plenty of effects which are HD-dependent, like sleep and cloudkill.

It's not just that they have weaknesses, it's that the LA rules make ogres squishier than humans.

[Sutremaine]

Another good example of a solid "melee" template is Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e). +2 STR, +4 CON, +3 Natural Armor and DR 8/Adamantine more than make up for a lost level in a melee-heavy class. But the -2 to ALL Mentals paired with the lost caster level makes it a horrendous choice for a Caster.
In a game with point buy and LA buyoff I would totally be up for this. The points you lose from the 18 -> 16 racial penalty are made up for by the +4 bonus to the second most important caster stat and the spell progression for a Mineral Warrior Wizard is the same as a regular Sorceror (bad, but not cripplingly so) until the buyoff point. The CL difference is 5%, until the buyoff point. 16 is by no means a terrible starting [casting stat].

Even in a game without buyoff this'd be a hoot at low levels. So what if your first-level spell allotment for the day has been used up? Walk up the enemy and start swinging. You have +3 NA, DR8/lolno, a couple of extra HP for emergencies, and your Will save is probably still better than the melee types. What are they going to do to you that that they couldn't do to an untemplated creature?

[Knaight]

Please show me a character or party that this monster would fit into well. Or, for that matter, show me the standard level 1 4-member party that could deal with one of these without danger of fatality. (yes, aware of color spray, sleep, etc. No guarantee to win initiative at level 1, though)

When your opponent has Dex 8, winning initiative is likely. When they have Wis 8, them failing anything with a will save is likely. A level 1 wizard with Improved Initiative and Sleep prepared will usually win. The character is still unreasonable, but it would be inaccurate to portray them as unbeatable.

[mattie_p]

When your opponent has Dex 8, winning initiative is likely. When they have Wis 8, them failing anything with a will save is likely. A level 1 wizard with Improved Initiative and Sleep prepared will usually win. The character is still unreasonable, but it would be inaccurate to portray them as unbeatable.

Then he doesn't take whirling frenzy, keeps normal rage for +2 on will saves and takes iron will for his feat. Or he becomes a warblade. Can we stop trying to beat up an ECL 3 character? This isn't the stuffy doll.

The point isn't that he is unbeatable, but that he is inappropriate as a member of a 1st level party, that is all I was and am trying to say. If you feel otherwise, I guess that is ok. Feel free to run your campaign that way. Just be forewarned of the potential consequences.

[zlefin]

i disagree mattie. he's not fit for a REGULAR party of level 1's; but if he's in a party of high optimization builds, like venerable dragonwrought kobolds and anthropomorphic bats, he wouldn't be that out of place.

and the person you were responding to was quite clear about the issue being assuming similar optimization levels in the party.