E6: PrCs as Base Classes

[Zaq]

Disclaimer: This is nothing but a thought experiment. I have no plans to run a game like this at any point in the foreseeable future. I just think it's interesting to ponder.

So, E6. I'll assume everyone here is familiar with the basics of E6. I like E6, but it's a little frustrating that nearly all PrCs (normally a relatively important part of the game) are either reduced to 1 possible level or cut off entirely (with a few very rare exceptions). It occurs to me that a lot of nonmagical (or not-very-magical) PrCs would, in an E6 context, actually not be totally inappropriate to be played from the get-go. In some cases, they might even be weaker than their associated base classes (for instance, the Thief-Acrobat wouldn't really break much if it were played straight, and it'd probably be overall weaker than a Rogue, just thanks to the restricted skills and loss of offensive abilities). I'd like to talk about that for a little bit.

Naturally, opening up PrCs from level 1 would involve removing most of their prereqs, but I'd say that's as much a feature of this proposed change as it is a bug. In the case of classes with features that rely upon a certain feat, I'd say it's reasonable to dictate that said feat must be taken at the earliest opportunity, but that might not even be necessary (if the player wants to have a class feature they can't use, that's their call). And of course, this would have to have GM approval across the board, but since this is hypothetical anyway, that's not something we can really deal with right now.

Levels are a small concern. There's a lot of 5-level PrCs out there. It wouldn't bother me too much to just say that they have to have one level in something else, though, to be perfectly honest.

So, what are some fun PrCs that might be appropriate as base classes in an E6 setting? Here's a few in no particular order, which I compiled just by flipping through the less overtly magical Completes:

Complete Adventurer
Animal Lord (the only issue is Summon Animal, but at 1/day, even that's not too bad. If anything, the class is underpowered.)
Beastmaster (again, underpowered)
Bloodhound (nothing too bad here)
Dread Pirate (this was the class that got me thinking about this from the start)
Dungeon Delver (the only out-of-line ability is Passwall, which might be traded for something else)
Exemplar (anything-as-Diplomacy is no worse than pure Diplomacy)
Ghost-Faced Killer (it's hard to access the Ethereal in E6, but otherwise, you're probably as well off as a Ninja)
Highland Stalker (it's a full-BAB Scout with way worse skills and fewer cool features. The raw combat numbers will outdo the Scout, but nothing else will.)
Nightsong Enforcer (nothing bad here)
Nightsong Infiltrator (if anything, it's underbalanced)
Shadowbane Inquisitor (weak)
Spymaster (again, probably underbalanced with nothing else to back it up, and Dispel Scrying is pretty useless in E6)
Streetfighter (no problems here)
Tempest (no problems here)
Thief-Acrobat (as stated above, perhaps a bit weak)
Vigilante (the spells might be troublesome, but they're not that bad, and nothing else is a problem)

Complete Warrior
Cavalier (with the caveat that the player and GM should work together to determine what, if any, kind of special mount such a PC should have)
Dark Hunter (nothing special to see)
Dervish (why not?)
Drunken Master (still probably too weak)
Eye of Gruumsh (typical Barb is probably better)
Halfling Outrider (though that dead level at 6 makes me sad)
Invisible Blade (I'd totally play this as a base class)
Justiciar (nothing to see here)
Kensai (Signature Weapon may be a bit too much for E6, but not out of the question)
Knight Protector (still too weak, probably)
Master Thrower (powerful, but probably not too powerful with anything to back it up)
Occult Slayer (Mind Blank in E6 is pretty intense, but probably not gamebreaking alone)
Order of the Bow Initiate (boring, but not bad)
Purple Dragon Knight (weak)
Ravager (weak)
Reaping Mauler (way more appropriate in E6 than otherwise, really)

Complete Scoundrel
Avenging Executioner (nothing bad here)
Cloaked Dancer (ignore the spellcasting, and it's not horrifically inappropriate)
Combat Trapsmith (perfect as a base class, at least in E6)
Fortune's Friend (probably weak on its own. Ignore the spellcasting.)
Master of Masks (watch some of those SLAs, but otherwise, nothing really problematic)
Mountebank (nothing too bad; Warlocks can get Dimension Door, so it's not like Sideslip is too unique)
Psibond Agent (probably weak)


Hardly exhaustive, of course, but a start.

I should mention that the whole bit with ignoring prerequisites is assuming that there will be relatively few dips, and that people will only be taking PrCs they intend to have as the focal point of their characters.

It might also be worth thinking about magical PrCs. I had an idea about saying that PrCs that advance casting could be considered to grant it (so if you took levels in Alienist, you might cast as a Sorcerer or a Wizard), with the caveat that you could never get higher than 2nd level spells by taking a PrC (any excess caster levels could advance your 2nd level spells, but you'd be giving up 3rds entirely, except I suppose by going Wizard 5/PrC 1, which is pretty much how existing E6 works). That might need some tweaking, and of course the PrCs would need much more careful scrutiny.

So, thoughts? Would you play in a game like this? If not, what would have to change for you to consider it? What other PrCs might be interesting in this sort of context?

[mistformsquirrl]

Iaijutsu Master from Oriental Adventures. It's not a powerhouse class by any stretch, but I think it could work, and be fun to play.

[Zombimode]

So, E6. I'll assume everyone here is familiar with the basics of E6. I like E6, but it's a little frustrating that nearly all PrCs (normally a relatively important part of the game) are either reduced to 1 possible level or cut off entirely (with a few very rare exceptions).

Hm, have you considered just lowering the requirements? Just lowering bab and skill prereques about 2 across the board (capping at +3 bab and +6 skill rank) will open up lots of PRCs and many of them will become available at level 4.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Actually, Beastmaster is quite easily broken at six levels (just take Natural Bond and Wild Cohort, and apply Wild Cohort to either of your companions, tracking the bonuses separately).

I would need to think more on this one. On the one hand, prestige classes have abilities that were quite obviously intended to be accessed five levels later; the tail end of a 5-level PrC quite often contains a capstone-level ability not meant to be available before level 10. On the other hand, for mundane PrCs, even the capstone-level abilities are pretty mediocre.

Still, War Hulk, Forsaker, Frenzied Berserker, etc.

Obviously to be taken with a grain of salt.

[Dusk Eclipse]

On the caster classes front, there are really few classes which make casters even more broken with class features, Planar Shepherd, Ur-Priest (6th Level spells!), incantatrix, etc. so leaving their normal progression (and perhaps boosting some to 5/6 or the like) isn't that big of a jump in power IMO.

[Talionis]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b

I like Chameleon as a capstone class in E6,

Chameleon would be broken you'd have access to fourth level arcane spells and when you run thru them all you could switch to divine focus and have fourth level divine spells.

But if you have a banned list this probably is a very good idea for an addition to E6.

[Madara]

In E6 many of the partial progression PrCs become acceptable.

[Alienist]

Actually, Beastmaster is quite easily broken at six levels (just take Natural Bond and Wild Cohort, and apply Wild Cohort to either of your companions, tracking the bonuses separately).


Ok, by my reading, a level 6 Beastmaster with Wild Cohort would have 3 animal companions.

One at Druid 9 (lvl 1 beastmaster ability)
One at Druid 3 (lvl 4 beastmaster ability)
One at Druid 3 (Wild Cohort)

You could then take Natural Bond twice to bump up your Druid 3 animal companions to Druid 6

Since Druid 7 is the break-point, this doesn't seem particularly bad to me.

It's that first Animal Companion that is the problem.

And forgive me for being obtruse, but surely anyone can take Wild Cohort and Natural Bond. So we shouldn't even really consider that.

The issue then becomes, is having two animal companions broken? Let's say we just let the Beastmaster take both of them at equivalent Druid levels (so both of them are capped at Druid 6 equivalents). Given that that is the entirety of your class features... how would that be broken?

[Inferno]

I think I could get behind lowering prerequisites for lvl 4 entry. Keeps 5 level capstone down without losing too much cool stuff. You'd still need a ban list though or just only let classes in on a case by case basis. Can't have an heir of siberys running around with 2/day storm of vengeance in e6.

[Starbuck_II]

Hardly exhaustive, of course, but a start.

I should mention that the whole bit with ignoring prerequisites is assuming that there will be relatively few dips, and that people will only be taking PrCs they intend to have as the focal point of their characters.

It might also be worth thinking about magical PrCs. I had an idea about saying that PrCs that advance casting could be considered to grant it (so if you took levels in Alienist, you might cast as a Sorcerer or a Wizard), with the caveat that you could never get higher than 2nd level spells by taking a PrC (any excess caster levels could advance your 2nd level spells, but you'd be giving up 3rds entirely, except I suppose by going Wizard 5/PrC 1, which is pretty much how existing E6 works). That might need some tweaking, and of course the PrCs would need much more careful scrutiny.

So, thoughts? Would you play in a game like this? If not, what would have to change for you to consider it? What other PrCs might be interesting in this sort of context?

I like this idea.

So most Preqs ignored (I'm assuming Mytic Theurge still needs a preq?).

Ur-Priest/Planar Shephard banned.
I'd play this likely.

Swiftblade Prc would be awesome, but it depends on Haste so unless you learn Haste as a 1st level spell, you couldn't use your abilities till 5th.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Ok, by my reading, a level 6 Beastmaster with Wild Cohort would have 3 animal companions.

One at Druid 9 (lvl 1 beastmaster ability)
One at Druid 3 (lvl 4 beastmaster ability)
One at Druid 3 (Wild Cohort)

Actually, one at Druid 9, and one at Druid 6 Druid 3 (EDIT: my bad). The Wild Cohort uses your ECL to determine abilities; it only uses a smaller figure to determine which companion you could take.


You could then take Natural Bond twice to bump up your Druid 3 animal companions to Druid 6

Natural Bond doesn't say "select one animal companion". It just adds three to your effective Druid level... Which applies, then, to all animal companions.


Since Druid 7 is the break-point, this doesn't seem particularly bad to me.

It's that first Animal Companion that is the problem.

And forgive me for being obtruse, but surely anyone can take Wild Cohort and Natural Bond. So we shouldn't even really consider that.

The Beastmaster, by default, does Natural Bond better than anybody else, since it applies equally to all companions.

Only the Druid and Ranger can actually use Natural Bons otherwise, regardless of Wild Cohort (barring ACFs that I am not considering), because Wild Cohort is not an animal companion; it is an "animal cohort".


The issue then becomes, is having two animal companions broken? Let's say we just let the Beastmaster take both of them at equivalent Druid levels (so both of them are capped at Druid 6 equivalents). Given that that is the entirety of your class features... how would that be broken?

The problem is that they aren't capped at level 6.

You get one at level 9, and one at level 6 level 3. Natural Bond increases both of these by three, which gives you some liberty in what you can select by subtracting your Druid level.

Let me put things in perspective:

I am a level 6 Beastmaster with Natural Bond and Wild Cohort as feats. I apply both of them to fleshraker raptors (Druid level -3). My Druid level is now again 9 for the first raptor (the BM level +3 is explicit in its entry in that it circumvents the normal limit), and 3 for the second. I apply my Wild Cohort bonuses to the weaker of the two, so it gains the benefits, separately, of a 6th-level Druid and 6th-level Wild Cohort feat.

My first fleshraker has +6 HD, +6 NA, +3 STR/DEX, four tricks, and everything up to Multiattack.
My second fleshraker has +5 HD (2+3), +5 NA (2+3), +2 STR/DEX (1+1), 4 tricks (2+2), and everything up to Evasion.

If the Druid level cap is implemented, roll out with a bear as your main animal companion instead (you could have a brown bear as a 6th-level Druid, or a polar as a third-level Druid).

[Alienist]

Well, the wild cohort/natural bond thing is interesting.



Natural Bond
Benefit
Add three to your effective druid level for the purpose of determining the bonus Hit Dice, extra tricks, special abilities, and other bonuses that your animal companion receives (see page 36 of the Player's Handbook). This bonus can never make your effective druid level exceed your character level.


Emphasis added.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well, the wild cohort/natural bond thing is interesting.



Emphasis added.


If a beastmaster already has an animal companion from another class, her beastmaster class levels stack with class levels from all other classes that grant an animal companion. For example, a 5th-level druid/2nd-level beastmaster would be treated as a 10th-level druid for the purpose of improving her statistics of her animal companion (and which alternative animal companions she could select).

Re: Natural Bond: a Beastmaster 6 with Natural Bond treats her Druid level as her Beastmaster level when using a brown bear (+3, +3 from Natural Bond, -6 for the level adjustment of bear-having). Similarly, a Beastmaster *can* have a bear, because a Beastmaster can have a Druid level higher than their ECL quite explicitly (see above).

[ThiagoMartell]

Thief-Acrobat even was a base class back in the day.
Looks like a good idea. Keep your banhammer ready, of course.

[Talionis]

I like this idea.

Swiftblade Prc would be awesome, but it depends on Haste so unless you learn Haste as a 1st level spell, you couldn't use your abilities till 5th.

Trapsmith gets Haste as a first level spell so it isn't outrageous. Plus, Haste could be the Swiftblade s only first level spell. So it would be pretty balanced.

A problem that occurs to me is that all Prestige Classes that advance casting, you would have to pick a caster class to model after, so it makes questions like how do they cast? Like Wizards? Sorcerers? Bard?

What is there spell list? It does require work for a DM.

[awa]

this would make a lot of the more lame prestige classes viable. but the dm would need to either modify or have a readied action with the ban hammer.
for example mystic theruge type classes would be super broken if you got to take them at level 1

[toapat]

this would make a lot of the more lame prestige classes viable. but the dm would need to either modify or have a readied action with the ban hammer.
for example mystic theruge type classes would be super broken if you got to take them at level 1

they would

but not if they required both a mystic and a divine level of spellcasting, in which case its alot more balanced.

[Answerer]

I was going to play in a game that worked similarly to this. I was going to play a Malconvoker, actually. SM3 is pretty good but SM1 and SM2 aren't so hot, so it seemed OK.

Unfortunately real life intervened and the game was scuttled.

[eggs]

I'd get a huge kick out of some of the normally weakish half-caster classes like the 3.0 Bladesinger or Scaled Horror.