Juxtaposed Psion v. Wilder AC maker

[danzibr]

As the title suggests, I'm going to do a comparison of a Psion who specializes in making (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralConstruct.htm) AC (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/astralConstruct.htm)'s and a Wilder who specializes in making AC's (maybe Ardent and other classes later).

I'm assuming Transparency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm) is on. This affects Orange Ioun Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#iounStones).

Some DM's might allow a psionic version of the trait Spellgifted (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm)*.

Very lenient DM's might allow Artifice and Creation domains (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm).

Note WBL at level 9 is 36k so I'm assuming that's when you get your Orange Ioun Stone.

The feat Transcend Limits is from Hyperconsciousness, which is 3rd party, and so may not be allowed.

Pure manifester with ``powergifted.''
{table=head]level|Psion ML Overchannel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#overchannel)|Psion ML Transcend Limits|Wilder|AC level (respectively)
1|3|3|3*|2
2|4|4|4|2
3|5|5|6|3
4|6|6|7|3/3/4
5|7|8|8|4
6|8|9|9|4/5/5
7|9|10|11|5/5/6
8|11|11|12|6
9|13|13|14|7
10|14|14|15|7/7/8
11|15|15|17|8/8/9
12|16|17| |8/9/9
13|17| | |9[/table]
If your DM allows the domain stuff to work (Cleric 1/else)
{table=head]level|Psion ML Overchannel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm)|Psion ML Transcend Limits|Wilder|AC level (respectively)
1|-|-|-|-
2|6|6|6|3
3|8|8|9|4/4/5**
4|9|9|10|5
5|10|11|11|5/6/6
6|11|12|12|6
7|12|13|14|6/7/7
8|14|14|15|7/7/8
9|16|16|17|8/8/9
10|17|17| |9
[/table]
So to explain the tables, looking at level 1* of the top table for example, the Psion with Overchannel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#overchannel), the Psion with Trancend Limits and the Wilder with Wild Surge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/wilder.htm#wildSurge) all can make an AC at ML 3 which is a second level AC. But at like level 10, the Psion can only get up to a level 7 AC while the Wilder can get up to a level 8.

* IMPORTANT NOTE: For a Wilder to even get an AC at level 1 they need the ACF which gives them the Creation mantle (which kinda sucks) or Hidden Talent (thanks Psyren).

** You need to take Practiced Manifester (from CPsi) as your level 3 feat.

Please let me know if anything's messed up.

Thanks to Psyren.

[Flickerdart]

Spellgifted is not subject to Psionic-Magic Transparency, as it is neither a spell, psionic power, SLA, PLA, SR/PR, nor item.

[Endarire]

An item that boosts your CL/ML for Conjuration or/and (Creation) abilities would count instead of Spellgifted.

[danzibr]

Spellgifted is not subject to Psionic-Magic Transparency, as it is neither a spell, psionic power, SLA, PLA, SR/PR, nor item.
That... is a good point. In the "Metagame Analysis: Designing Traits" blurb it seems any DM that allows traits would allow the psionic version of Spellgifted, say Powergifted. Still, I'll write it in, thanks.

[danzibr]

An item that boosts your CL/ML for Conjuration or/and (Creation) abilities would count instead of Spellgifted.
Do you have an item in mind?

[Flickerdart]

That... is a good point. In the "Metagame Analysis: Designing Traits" blurb it seems any DM that allows traits would allow the psionic version of Spellgifted, say Powergifted. Still, I'll write it in, thanks.
Having an extra ML is a lot more powerful than having an extra CL, since it's basically like being half a spell level ahead.

[Psyren]

** IMPORTANT NOTE: For a Wilder to even get an AC at level 1 they need the ACF which gives them the Creation mantle.

They can also get it via Hidden Talent. This is important because Mantled Wilder is pretty subpar - you give up Elude Touch (a pretty helpful boost) and you are also forced to take Mantle powers as your powers known first before you can take any general Wilder powers. So a better route might be Hidden Talent + Educated Wilder, giving you much more flexibility in power selection.

[danzibr]

I didn't know of the Cloistered Cleric dip business. So I updated the OP.

[Psyren]

I didn't know of the Cloistered Cleric dip business. So I updated the OP.

As I noted in the other thread:


That won't work either. Transparency applies to:

- Spells (e.g. Consumptive Field.)
- SLAs
- Magic Items
- SR/PR
- Detection
- Dispels
- Dead Magic/AMF

The granted abilities of domains are none of these things (unless specifically stated otherwise.)

Some domain abilities are SLAs, but not either of those two.

[danzibr]

As I noted in the other thread:

Some domain abilities are SLAs, but not either of those two.
Ahh. I hadn't seen that. A pity.

If Psyren were an item, he'd be a Psionic Fountain of Wisdom.

I'll go back and fix this when I get some time, thanks.

[eggs]

All the houserules and variants in the OP make this need some translating before it can be generalized. (eg. Assuming "Powergifted" means assuming both a variant character creation rule and a houserule variant of it).

We don't talk about quorri shards or psiotheurge much, and for very good reasons, but they make this much crazier for everybody. Bloodlines probably do too (implementations vary too much to say with absolute certainty), but they're just silly.

In any case, this is more complicated than it looks, because a psionics-user who specializes in ACs is probably taking levels in something like Constructor, Ectopic Adept or Anarchic Initiate (or Psychic Theurge for silly psiotheurge abuse), so base class features may need some reconsideration.

[danzibr]

All the houserules and variants in the OP make this need some translating before it can be generalized. (eg. Assuming "Powergifted" means assuming both a variant character creation rule and a houserule variant of it).

We don't talk about quorri shards or psiotheurge much, and for very good reasons, but they make this much crazier for everybody. Bloodlines probably do too (implementations vary too much to say with absolute certainty), but they're just silly.

In any case, this is more complicated than it looks, because a psionics-user who specializes in ACs is probably taking levels in something like Constructor, Ectopic Adept or Anarchic Initiate (or Psychic Theurge for silly psiotheurge abuse), so base class features may need some reconsideration.
Powergifted would be the power version of Spellgifted.

And I'm quite interested in any other advice. I had Constructor in mind but that won't change the max ML at all.

[eggs]

Yeah, I get what Powergifted is, but this looks like it's oriented more as an advice/resource thread than a question, so fitting a houserule and variant rule into the base assumptions is kind of problematic (in that there's a very good chance it won't apply).

The reason I mention PrCs is that it poses a pretty meaningful distinction between the three major branches of Construct-crafting:

Shaper 5/Constructor 9/X 6 is either going to be a step behind your ML chart or have a feat eaten, but is going to manifest better constructs at each construct level, and do it as a swift action (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a).
Ardent 10/Constructor 10 is going to be slower to develop, but its metapsionics are going to be very strong - if especially if DSP and Hyperconscious materials and are fair game and the Substitute Mantle variant is online (it's going to be 2 ML ahead of the psion from level 10+, and be very good at using things like Extend or Linked Power with its constructs and other construct/creation-thematic powers like Astral Juggernaut (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/astral-juggernaut) and Ectoskeleton (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/ectoskeleton)).
Wilder 20 (or Wilder/Anarchic Initiate... the differences are pretty minor) is going to have the reliably higher ML, but a lot harder time improving its constructs in ways that the other manifesting classes can. If the Wilder goes into a specialist PrC, its Wild Surge will lose its major advantage over Overchannel.


And on the silly things (in case you're really trying to maximize ML):

Quori Power Shards are Implanted Shards (so 1 allowed per ML) that cost 3k apiece and can be activated 3/day to augment a power by 2 PP. So even a level 7 Psychic Rogue can manifest level 9 constructs for 1 PP 3/day without breaking WBL or making any other investments. It's probably reasonable to anticipate a ban on these but
Psiotheurge stacks caster and manifester levels, so something like a Cleric 3/Ardent 2/Psychic Theurge 3 with Practiced Spellcaster, Practiced Manifester, Psiotheurge and a miscellaneous +1 PP boost (torc of power preservation, overchannel, whatever) could manifest level 9 constructs.
Bloodlines may be up to +3 ML for a 1000 experience apiece, or they may just be extraordinarily crappy levels that give a few feats on the way, or one of several interpretations that sets them at a middle and better balanced ground, but they're clumsily written enough that it's hard to say decisively.


And as a fun side note, the Divine Mind's Ectopic Ally (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) gives it a level 9 construct nova at level 10.