An overpowered 2nd level (PF) spell?

[Seharvepernfan]

I just played in my first pathfinder game the other night. We're 4th level. Our sorcerer knows one second level spell which he can cast four times a day; Stone Call. It's not in the CRB, but it was listed on the SRD (or some other paizo site, Im not sure).

Basically, it drops stones in a 40ft. radius for 2d6 damage (no save, no attack roll), then that area is considered difficult terrain for the duration of the spell. Does that smell like cheese to anyone besides me?

Im not complaining as a party member, we wiped out a large group of warriors and low-level wizards with three castings of that, but as an experienced D&Der, that seemed overpowered to me.

[Eldariel]

Well, the damage is nothing special and difficult terrain doesn't really screw over anything but charging; there's no check to move through it and the speed you get is still very reasonable. It can be devastating in some circumstances (facing large masses that are some way away from you) but overall it shouldn't be that big of a deal. If I get the chance to use them, I'd still prefer Pyrotechnics or Web over it for instance, or even Glitterdust in spite of it being nerfed in PF.

EDIT: And it's from Advanced Players' Guide in case you were wondering.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's not broken (compared to other good 2nd level spells), spells are just really freaking powerful.

Wait till he figures out to use Dazing Spell metamagic with it. :)
Though I prefer to attach that feat to reflex save spells since i can get fort and will save or lose just fine, Stone Call for a 40 ft radius will save or lose is pretty sexy, too. And low enough level that you can use additional feats / meta rods to add Selective and Persistent spell to it, too.

EDIT: I hope you didn't expect PF to be better balanced than 3E, as was claimed. PF actually has less class balance in general between mundanes and casters than 3E did. Mostly by way of nerfing the mundanes at every corner, rather than appreciably buffing the casters (hard to improve perfection), but the end result is the same.

[ericgrau]

A big radius is good for large numbers of foes at range. It's not so good for smaller numbers of foes at melee.

In one campaign I thought exactly that so I picked up a couple scrolls for when that situation came up. It never did. Like many spells it really depends what you're facing. One day epic, another day nearly useless.

[ThiagoMartell]

Stream, could you edit that last bit out? We don't want another edition war here, do we?

[gr8artist]

Of course, all the class balance in the world matters nothing if the players aren't up to par. My group consists of a fighter, a master thrower, a master chymist, a wizard, an oracle, and (formerly) an artificer and a warlock.
The guy that played the warlock, chose the class because he'd heard it was OP, and wanted to be able to solo stuff, going for an angsty teenager concept. He basically ended up firing off 1d6 damage per round, every round, as touch attacks. The rogues laughed at him and killed things.
He re-rolled, and took an artificer, again because he'd heard they were really powerful. He spent every fight firing single 1d4+1 magic missiles from his wand every round... at level 7. We gave him money. He made a belt of +4 str... for himself (a caster). He's gone now.
Our oracle just likes to blow stuff up, enemy and ally alike, and doesn't care if his friends get caught in the blast, because most of them have evasion.
And the wizard, who should be one of our most fearsome characters, recently bounced a disintegrate off a creature that had spell turning on it... after he'd made a successful spellcraft check to notice the creature cast spell turning (one-shotting himself).

My point being, don't worry too much about spell balance, or class balance or anything else. Just sit back and enjoy the humor while your friends trip over themselves.

[Gamer Girl]

Basically, it drops stones in a 40ft. radius for 2d6 damage (no save, no attack roll), then that area is considered difficult terrain for the duration of the spell. Does that smell like cheese to anyone besides me?

Im not complaining as a party member, we wiped out a large group of warriors and low-level wizards with three castings of that, but as an experienced D&Der, that seemed overpowered to me.

So the Sorcerer cast the spell three times and took out a group of wizards and warriors. How does that seem over powered? So he used up all most all of his 2nd level slots to win one encounter? Well, what did he do for the next dozen encounters or so?

[Andreaz]

You could probably recreate most of that effect by using Create Pit alone. Your allies poke them to death from the edge (or at the edge for the melee types) and you get to cackle maniacally. Or fire a crossbow and acid splashes if you want to make yourself more useful :p

If those casters are troublesome, fog cloud forces them into playing climbers. If climbing is too easy (cd 25!), then Grease stops them.

[Twilightwyrm]

If you are 4th level, and you are using all three of your castings of 2nd level spells to wipe out an encounter, than you aren't really breaking things too bad. It is a powerful spell, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't seem terribly broken.

[grarrrg]

Rocks fall, everyone is mildly inconvenienced.

It doesn't scale.
The damage is fixed, meaning the "important" part of the spell is the Terrain modification. I'll take a pass thank you.

[jaybird]

When he could be dropping Flaming Sphere + Pyrotechnics to hit Will for SoL on everyone in 120' with one less spell? Meh, it's mediocre. The Fighter could be one-shotting a mook per round at that point, and he can do it for as long as his HP holds out.

EDIT: Or, for the same level of spell, he could have a Toppling Magic Missile. Reflex or fall on your face for, what, 2 targets at level 4? 3 of those gets you 6 targets tripped, and if the Fighter is doing his job he's hitting them with an AoO whenever they try to get up.

[nedz]

If I was playing a sorcerer then I probably wouldn't take that spell as my first level 2 pick. Well, maybe if I was playing an earth themed character, and flavour was more important than power, but probably not even then.

You do usually want something spammable for the first spell of each new spell level, and this is - in some situations, but there are better options.

[Novawurmson]

Another vote for "not OP."

[Slipperychicken]

3 castings = Your Sorcerer's entire 2nd level spells/day. He completely blew his load on one encounter, a "nova" or "burst" if you will. He can do it once, and only once per day, while the Barbarian and Fighter can just keep trucking through.

Not overpowered in the slightest. He used most of his daily resources and 3 combat rounds, and got an appropriate effect (encounter ended).

[Ravenica]

2d6 non-energy damage once and then an ignorable difficult terrain... compared to say firebreath, which would let him do 4d6, 2d6, and 1d6 damage over 3 rounds with a single casting, hitting a 15ft cone each time... or ANY of the scaling spells (which you could at level 4 with the right build be effective cl6 for getting max damage)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Stream, could you edit that last bit out? We don't want another edition war here, do we?

Uh...it's all true. I'll make it a softer tone by removing some words, but the parts about it being advertised as more balanced and actually being less by nerfing martials is all the truth.

[ericgrau]

Eh the changes were small enough that they couldn't screw it up royally no matter what they did. Not like the alpha. I can agree that it didn't improve balance.

Against large groups stone call is nice. But most of the time melee does more damaged, so I don't see stone call as overpowered compared to anything. Since it's not an instant spell you can't even selective spell it, so it's hard to get many targets. By the time you can empower it you're usually better off with a fireball even against fire resistant things. That means it's only useful for levels 3-4 or so. Now you want to put a situational spell in one of your few spell slots, meaning it's great sometimes but there's chance that you'll run out of useful spells and be nearly useless. Sounds underpowered if anything.

[El Dorado]

I don't think it's a good spell for its level. Our sorceress used two castings to create 160 feet of difficult terrain to prevent some dire wolves from charging while the group dealt with a much closer winter wolf. The 2d6 damage was gravy compared to the battlefield control. Even so, she swapped it out when she hit 6th level.

[ThiagoMartell]

Uh...it's all true. I'll make it a softer tone by removing some words, but the parts about it being advertised as more balanced and actually being less by nerfing martials is all the truth.

I disagree, but I don't want to start an edition war.

[navar100]

Uh...it's all true. I'll make it a softer tone by removing some words, but the parts about it being advertised as more balanced and actually being less by nerfing martials is all the truth.

It's irrelevant to the point of the thread. It's flaming Pathfinder for the sake of flaming Pathfinder because of whatever issues you have with the game.

[Elvencloud]

Honestly I think Web or Create Pit are much better choices for that level 2 slot that are much, much more powerful. (again, an opinion.)

[Ravens_cry]

Heck, I might even take Forbid Action (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/forbid-action) or Murderous Command (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/murderous-command) over that. I had a lot of fun with both when we were fighting a bunch of giants with abysmal will saves. We were high enough level I could just spam the heck out of those spells.

[nedz]

There are lots of better spells, but for a sorcerer: choosing a spamable spell as the first spell of a new spell level has more utility, since you are going to be able to cast it 3+ times per day.

This one has

Some damage
Large area
Some battlefield control

So its not an awful choice, but its still not OP.