Genesis

[dantiesilva]

So my questions is has anyone actually ever been able to use this in a game. I am a 11th level cleric now and will soon be able to and was thinking of doing so myself. If anyone could throw me some pointers it would be greatly appreciated.

[legomaster00156]

You're still 6 levels away from using it. But, yes, you can use it, and it is highly abusable. However, I hope that you're either going on a gentleman's agreement or playing in a ridiculously high-power game.

[dantiesilva]

We just killed a greater doppleganger that has a CR of 12 with 15 assassin levels... So yea saying we were level 10 at that time and killed him with no one taking damage, I see no reason why we will not be high level soon enough. The rouge gained so much extra XP from all he fought he went up to 1 xp below a second level up and gained a free bonus feat for the rest of his XP... But I plan on using it as a way to get a free planar ally, well greater at that point. Tell it I will make a world devoted to followers of Pelor where time is at a standstill and the sun always shines so on so forth.

[legomaster00156]

15 Assassin levels? You just killed an Epic-level threat, then. Either you were insanely smart/lucky, or the DM wasn't playing this enemy wisely at all. For starters, no assassin - especially not an obviously good one - should be engaging in direct combat.

[TheTick]

All demiplanes created by Genesis must give all of your touch spells the invisible spell metamagic for free, or you are doing it wrong.

(please be old enough to get this)

[dantiesilva]

That ain't the best part, I had no spells left as a cleric besides the few buffs I casted before battle began so I was left with dispelling all his magic items. While I did this the spellthief stole all his spells and used wraith strike to hit, and well the wizard kind of kept on trying to grapple him, no idea why but he always failed none the less. With my spells and domain granted powers everyone had around 30AC, sadly our fighter,monk really, was up against a nymph with bard and assassin levels outside. He threw a tree on her.

[Aharon]

All demiplanes created by Genesis must give all of your touch spells the invisible spell metamagic for free, or you are doing it wrong.

(please be old enough to get this)

In case you didn't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK3N2DC3Fds

[ThiagoMartell]

30 AC against an epic level assassin?
Yeah, talk about a low OP NPC.

[legomaster00156]

No assassin this stupid should have reached epic level. He would've been much better off to stealthily kill each one of you in your sleep. You know, like an actual assassin. Even if that's not an option, he shoul d have had tons of ways to escape when he was losing.

[Magnera]

Returning to the topic of genesis, you will want to talk to your DM about it but you could create a plane that 8 hours = 1 round. When ever you need to regain spells or rest just go into your genesis and relax for 8 hours comeback and you just missed six seconds of action. Wonderful trade if you ask me.

[dantiesilva]

The problem was he did have ways to escape. I stopped them by dispelling them. Along with all other magic items he tried to use. And with all his spells being stolen by the Spellthief he had only melee left. And without being able to hide in plainsight yea. no sneak attack dice every single turn. We were not even suppose to face him, we happened upon a secret door, or more to the point the thief did, investigated brought us all back in which he was then their, but he was disguised as the dukes best friend, I cast true seeing on Duke because I was a church inquisitor and saw through the illusion and yea. We stopped his attempt to kill the whole town with displacer beasts while he killed the duke and took his place.

Anyways back to the topic on hand. I was thinking of something like that but with hewards bedroll I only need to sleep for 1 hour and it works every 48 hours so I was thinking seconds =hours. Thus cast all buffs, recharge spells, and then launch an all out assualt, if I grab transdimensional spell fire it through the portal. While I was doing that open a gate from Pelors plane to mine, let all those creatres come and fill it, then they go through gate a to the material plane and kill whatever is left over.

[legomaster00156]

I don't think True Seeing pierces a Polymorph. Illusions, yes, but with a Polymorph spell, you become the creature.

[mattie_p]

I don't think True Seeing pierces a Polymorph. Illusions, yes, but with a Polymorph spell, you become the creature.

It is in the description of the True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm)spell that the subject sees the true form of polymorphed things.

[ThiagoMartell]

And without being able to hide in plainsight yea. no sneak attack dice every single turn.
Assassins get that at level 8.

[Slipperychicken]

30 AC against an epic level assassin?
Yeah, talk about a low OP NPC.

Actually playing Epic pretty much means low op by definition. You really have to have no idea about optimization (not to mention how hard the game shatters into an unrecognizable mess at level 21+) to seriously suggest Epic play.

[ThiagoMartell]

Actually playing Epic pretty much means low op by definition. You really have to have no idea about optimization (not to mention how hard the game shatters into an unrecognizable mess at level 21+) to seriously suggest Epic play.
That does make a lot of sense.

[mregecko]

I know this is a further digression from the main point of the topic, but I don't see why people are really ragging on him for the 15th level Assassin Doppelganger. It's entirely possible that it's a pretty low threat to a well-built party.

4RHD+3LA+15lvl = 22ECL (I think I did that right?).

So he's got two epic levels, really (don't ask how he did 5 levels in epic assassin if only two levels that qualify for 'epic').

If he picks a crummy feat for his 21st level epic feat, he's essentially just a high level rogue with polymorphing and good hiding abilitieis. Sure, WBL is going to make him able to destroy most 11th level parties... But the OP specifically said that he dispelled the gear (I'm guessing a chain dispel, which can be MEGA devastating if optimized. Inquisition domain +4, misc CL boosting gear, chain rod, greater dispel... Easily +15 to +17).

So then you're basically fighting a high level rogue with no gear. My money would be on a well-balanced party, even if the rogue were epic.

It's entirely possible that I'm missing something, some of my calculations are wrong, etc... That was just my first reaction.

[Arcanist]

Actually playing Epic pretty much means low op by definition. You really have to have no idea about optimization (not to mention how hard the game shatters into an unrecognizable mess at level 21+) to seriously suggest Epic play.

This is sooooo true... If you're doing Epic Play, then you cannot in all fairness optimize without tearing the Omniverse a new butt hole :smallsigh: If you're going to do Epic you're a little better off playing Exalted or with a very responsible group of players that understand what a story is...

[Lateral]

I know this is a further digression from the main point of the topic, but I don't see why people are really ragging on him for the 15th level Assassin Doppelganger. It's entirely possible that it's a pretty low threat to a well-built party.

4RHD+3LA+15lvl = 22ECL (I think I did that right?).

So he's got two epic levels, really (don't ask how he did 5 levels in epic assassin if only two levels that qualify for 'epic').
Well, no, the point is that if he's got fifteen assassin levels he has to be at least level 25, RHD and LA included.

[dantiesilva]

Its a greater doppleganger not the normal kind. CR=12 not including RHD.

And after looking through the Manuel of the planes I was thinking a timeless plane, Good aligned, Minor positive energy aligned, and high powered fire, air and light spells. While darkness and necromancy spells do not work their. I was thinking of adding the fire and air templates to it but it only hurts the idea.

[ThiagoMartell]

Well, no, the point is that if he's got fifteen assassin levels he has to be at least level 25, RHD and LA included.

This, pretty much this.
The fact he simply did not use Hide in Plain Sight or any assassin spells speaks gallons. If an epic level assassin does not begin a battle killing someone with death attack, you're building it wrong.

[Slipperychicken]

a very responsible group of players that understand what a story is...

A 3.5 Epic story:

DM: "Oh no! Baron King Arch-Fiend recently-ascended Eldritch Horror Von Evil has taken the omni-"

Player: "-I go back in time (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) and kill Baron Von Evil the moment he's born" [scratches 1,000xp off his sheet]

DM: :smallannoyed: [throws pile of notes into garbage]

Player: "Is that it for the day? I've still got both my Epic slots open..."

[dantiesilva]

Ok for all those people who can not read I will post the sheet.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=434710

That is not including his equipment. But his equipment became irrelevant because of dispel magic and getting a 35 or so, made all his magic items, and abilities go bye. So anyways please people only things about the gensis spell that could be useful. Thank you.

[Duboris]

So, a Doppelganger with 15 assassin class levels that essentially came directly at you? Didn't, say, oh, I don't know, wait till 4 AM to come into your rooms at night, wait 3 rounds, and just instant kill you?

For shame, DM. Don't give things Assassin class levels if you're not going to AT THE LEAST have it imitate your player characters in their beds after killing said PC, have them come "Check out" a disturbance in your room, and when they stand around trying to figure out what happened kill another one of them and jump out of the window.

Sweet Jesus I'm a bastard.

The only way that could be even more evil is to have the player character not know he's dead, and go along with the ruse that he's perfectly ok, and roll an attack roll, which is also an instant kill, only to jump out of the room while all your players just look at you like "Did... Did you just kill 2 of us."

"Perception checks be damned."

[Hiro Protagonest]

If you're going to do Epic you're a little better off playing Exalted or with a very responsible group of players that understand what a story is...

You don't play Exalted if you want to play Epic. You play Champions, or Strands of Fate, or maybe high power level Dresden Files (I don't have DDRPG). :smallconfused:

You play Exalted if you want to play Exalted.

[dantiesilva]

@Duboris

I asked to drop it, were you in the game? no, do you know what happened to lead to him dieing? No. Do you know anything besides the build I just showed you? No. So if you do not have anything to say about the spell refrain from saying it. I did not come here to hear on how we should not have been able to kill him, because guess what everyone has a story that they should not have survived and yet they won so really its getting annoying, especially the fact that people ignore what is said about the assassin having all his spells stolen by the spell thief.

Now if anyone has anything to help we the spell by all means let me know so I can learn not to abuse it. Otherwise do not leave a comment.

[Duboris]

@Duboris

I asked to drop it, were you in the game? no, do you know what happened to lead to him dieing? No. Do you know anything besides the build I just showed you? No. So if you do not have anything to say about the spell refrain from saying it. I did not come here to hear on how we should not have been able to kill him, because guess what everyone has a story that they should not have survived and yet they won so really its getting annoying, especially the fact that people ignore what is said about the assassin having all his spells stolen by the spell thief.

Now if anyone has anything to help we the spell by all means let me know so I can learn not to abuse it. Otherwise do not leave a comment.

I wasn't so much worried about the "you living" part as I was the "poorly played doppelganger"

More to the point, I do have opinions on the genesis ability. For starters, it's a potentially wonderful hiding place, depending on how well you can hide a snow globe. On top of that, I'm pretty sure only the caster has access, which makes it a potentially wonderful place to change your prepared spells.

[Slipperychicken]

That is not including his equipment. But his equipment became irrelevant because of dispel magic and getting a 35 or so, made all his magic items, and abilities go bye. So anyways please people only things about the gensis spell that could be useful. Thank you.

??? :smallconfused:

Dispel Magic merely suppresses a magic item's magical qualities for 1d4 rounds, after which it works good as new. To affect your items at all, it has to be the targeted version, and specifically targeted at you. Only Disjunction can do what you describe.

[dantiesilva]

No, not if you do it every 2 rounds.

[Slipperychicken]

No, not if you do it every 2 rounds.

Then this loser is wasting half his actions (plus his 3rd level spell slots) to keep one guy's magic items off. Get your BSF to stab him, or grab a Ring of Counterspells and just laugh.

You can still lay down spells on him just fine. Put some CC (crowd control) on him while someone smacks him.

[Toliudar]

The Genesis plane can of course be a souped-up Rope Trick plus as much storage as you need. I'd suggest that you talk with your DM about the additional implications of a altered time frame. He's clearly already having trouble challenging you, and being able to arrive into any situation complete refreshed after six seconds is going to amp up your power level significantly. Ask yourself and the DM: what's going to serve this game?

[Arcanist]

A 3.5 Epic story:

DM: "Oh no! Baron King Arch-Fiend recently-ascended Eldritch Horror Von Evil has taken the omni-"

Player: "-I go back in time (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) and kill Baron Von Evil the moment he's born" [scratches 1,000xp off his sheet]

DM: :smallannoyed: [throws pile of notes into garbage]

Player: "Is that it for the day? I've still got both my Epic slots open..."

That tactic would work, but Von Evil has portfolio sense now since he is a God and I'm pretty sure a time assassination would trigger it. He would pop in, dispel your mind blank, mind rape you and have you try that tactic all over again on your party.

The moral of this story? Never play Rocket tag with a guy that has "recently-ascended" in his title, because he JUST might have 16 DvR :smallbiggrin:

[TuggyNE]

That tactic would work, but Von Evil has portfolio sense now since he is a God and I'm pretty sure a time assassination would trigger it. He would pop in, dispel your mind blank, mind rape you and have you try that tactic all over again on your party.

The age-old debate: does the death (or incapacitation) of a god affect their portfolio? If so, add a few steps to gain immunity to portfolio sense, obviously.

[Arcanist]

The age-old debate: does the death (or incapacitation) of a god affect their portfolio? If so, add a few steps to gain immunity to portfolio sense, obviously.

... People actually debate that? :smallconfused: Well, let me ask this: Does the collapse of a major banking firm not effect there clients (Divine Agents), employees (Worshipers), Embezzlers (Ur-Priest)? Because I'm sure that nobody is left to write either of these parties checks (send spells) if the boss (God) is dead.

Does the top of the Pyramid not fall if the bottom cannot sustain it!?

I'd like us to end this discussion here and now since it would be derailing :smallsmile:

[2xMachina]

But portfolio sense is limited to that portfolio. If it's death/destruction/combat/violence/life/immortality/godhood it sure would ping.

But if it's sea(etc)... what has the death of a god, got to do with it? Sea will still be there, even there's no sea god.

[Hecuba]

But if it's sea(etc)... what has the death of a god, got to do with it? Sea will still be there, even there's no sea god.

That depends on how you set up the cosmology. I see no reason why you could not have a setting where Ra is the Sun and Geb is the earth.

Even short of that it depends on what role you think that, for example, the god of the Sun has in the daily operation of the Sun. If Apollo or Helios literally drives the Sun across the sky each day, then the fact that the Sun will no longer rise after their death (or will have someone else driving it) will likely make it ping their portfolio sense.



Ok for all those people who can not read I will post the sheet.
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=434710

Assassin is a PRC. You can't just be Assassin 15. You have to be at least level 5 before you can take Assassin 1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm), and you have to be at least level 20 before you can take Assassin 11 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClassProgressions.htm#epicAssassin) (since levels 10+ in the class are part of the epic PRC advancement).

Either you were fighting a Rogue 5+x/Assassin10-x (my guess) or some homebrewed (or maybe Pathfinder?) Assassin 15.

Either way, this has profoundly different implications for the power level of your game than fighting an actual character with 15 levels in assassin (which would indicate an effective minimum CR of 25).


So anyways please people only things about the gensis spell that could be useful. Thank you.

The utility of genesis varries widely based on some fairly subjective readings. If you can set the time trait (which you might be able to do), you can essentially break the long run action economy. If you can set the Morphic traits (which you might be able to do), you can effectively break casting economy.

Essentially, we need to know which planar traits are fair game. The Eberron cosmology in particular introduced some strange ones.

[dantiesilva]

again gensis spell please...

[Sith_Happens]

But I plan on using it as a way to get a free planar ally, well greater at that point. Tell it I will make a world devoted to followers of Pelor where time is at a standstill and the sun always shines so on so forth.

For that, here's what comes to mind:

General Environment:

A beautiful, pristine landscape (the plants will have to be created/added separately as per the spell description) with a clear blue sky and moderate climate. There is no concept of night here; the demi-plane is lit by sunlight at all times.

Traits:

Normal gravity.

Normal time.
(You can pick something else if you want to, but it's not necessary to do so in order for the sun to always shine.)

Divinely morphic. The demi-plane is morphic to beings of at least greater diety status and alterable in the normal manner for all others.
(This is in case you can get Pelor himself to come for a visit.)

Minor positive-dominant.

Strongly good-aligned.

Impeded magic. Spells and spell-like abilities of the Necromancy school and those with the [Evil] or [Darkness] descriptors are impeded.

Enhanced magic. Spells and spell-like abilities of the Healing subschool and those with the [Good] or [Light] descriptors are maximized, empowered, extended, and widened.

[Deophaun]

??? :smallconfused:

Dispel Magic merely suppresses a magic item's magical qualities for 1d4 rounds, after which it works good as new. To affect your items at all, it has to be the targeted version, and specifically targeted at you.
Actually, it has to be specifically targeted at the item. Targeting it at a person will only affect the spells cast on that person, not the magic items that person is wearing.

That's 1 casting of dispel magic for each item that assassin is wearing.

So, in other words, he beat the encounter because they were doing it wrong.

[Alleran]

Minor positive-dominant.

Strongly good-aligned.

Impeded magic. Spells and spell-like abilities of the Necromancy school and those with the [Evil] or [Darkness] descriptors are impeded.

Enhanced magic. Spells and spell-like abilities of the Healing subschool and those with the [Good] or [Light] descriptors are maximized, empowered, extended, and widened.
Per Pelor's status as the Burning Hate, I don't think it would be good-aligned or bar evil spells. :smallamused:

[Arcanist]

Per Pelor's status as the Burning Hate, I don't think it would be good-aligned or bar evil spells. :smallamused:

Personally, I think the demi-plane would have the "Unearthly heat" temperature at all times, Major Positive Energy trait, would maximize all positive energy spells and cause all creatures to take damage from healing spells as if they were inflict spells... No idea how that last one would work...