Drow Mystic Theurge [3.5]

[panaikhan]

Hi.
In the current campaign I am playing, I plan for my Drow Cleric to go Mystic Theurge.
Build at the moment: Cleric 6 / Necromancer 1 / Drow Paragon 1 (Divine 6 / Arcane 2 spell ability)
I'm mulling over whether to take the two more Paragon levels or take another level in Necromancer to qualify for MT (I'm only missing the Arcane casting requirement)

Any thoughts or suggestions?

[ahenobarbi]

I'd recommend Necromancer - You'll loose less casting levels this way.

[panaikhan]

The only reason i'm mulling over the Paragon levels, is the stat boost for L3. Otherwise it would be a no-brainer.

[Spuddles]

Stat boost won't really be worth it, imo. Another level of necromancer gets you, 2 or 3 more spells per day, and another level of spells? Losing caster levels hurts a lot.

[Answerer]

A lost spellcasting level is almost impossible to make up; very few classes do it, particularly for pure-casters. The stat bonus definitely does not do it.

For that matter, Mystic Theurge itself is a huge trap. Three lost spellcasting levels basically is impossible to make up. A Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10 is much, much worse than a Cleric 16 or a Wizard 16, and that's literally the absolute best level for a Mystic Theurge.

I strongly recommend trying to work something out with your DM where you don't get shafted so hard for doing this.

[panaikhan]

I'd only be losing one caster level. Drow Paragon is a 2/3 casting progression.

The main reason I am going Mystic Theurge, is the party has NO arcane spellcasters. Well, it has a Duskblade, but we won't talk any more about that.

If there is a way to maximize damage output from only a few levels of Necro, then i'll do that and pour my levels into Cleric.

[Answerer]

You need 3rd-level Divine and 3rd-level Arcane spells to enter Mystic Theurge. Necromancer 1 does not get you 3rd-level Arcane spells; you need 3 levels.

Unless you're using an early entry trick; if so, you should mention that.

[panaikhan]

Drow Paragon advances Arcane caster level (2/3) and I thought it was 2nd level spells? I do mention it in the original post - one level of Necro or two levels of Paragon will let me qualify

[hoverfrog]

Start at Wizard 1 and take Precocious Apprentice to access 2nd level spells. Take two levels of Cleric and the Alternative Spell Source (Dragon 325) feat and then advance as MT for 10 levels. That way you only lose two wizard levels and no cleric levels. If the DM will allow it.

Failing that see if the DM will allow you to take Precocious Apprentice even though you aren't a first level character and then advance straight into MT.

Having said that this only matters if someone else in the party is advancing as a single class or prestige class. If they are multi classing then the loss in power won't really be felt so much.

As an alternative take Leadership and have your cohort be a wizard.

[Keld Denar]

You need 3rd-level Divine and 3rd-level Arcane spells to enter Mystic Theurge. Necromancer 1 does not get you 3rd-level Arcane spells; you need 3 levels.


This Mystic Theurge? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.htm)

If the build is already like that, then just keep on keeping on. Mystic Theurge is better than just leaving that level of Wizard stranded. It won't keep up with a straight classed caster of either side, though.

Either way, you aren't gonna be doing much in the way of damage. You are 7ish levels behind on your arcane side, so your spell slots and spell levels are lagging seriously. The best way to do damage with spells is via Metamagic, and you don't have the higher level spell slots to apply MM to the lower level spells that scale well. You've also stunted your cleric casting and all that, and short of casting Divine Power, you probably won't amount to much in melee.

If I was you playing this character, I would focus on non-attack spells. Let the duskblade kill things. Try to find spells that don't allow saves, or spells that have partial effects even on a successful save, or buffs. Focus on your diversity of spells, rather than the power of any individual spell. Again, it wont' be as awesome as if you had remained single-classed with either Cleric or Wizard, but it is still kinda salvageable.

[ahenobarbi]

Well if you still can change your build others gave you good advice - avoid Mystic Theurge (unless you can use some early entry trick or prestige class with fast casting progression). It will make you much weaker.

If you can't change the Cleric 6 / Necromancer 1 / Drow Paragon 1 part don't waste any more of your casting progression - take one more level of Necromancer and go Mystic Theurge. Really. If you take 3 levels of Drow Paragon you will be 2 spell levels behind a regular cleric and 4 spell levels behind regular Necromancer.

And +2 to dex will not help you that much. You can get more from extra spells than you will gain with that +2 dex.

[Answerer]

I thought it was 2nd level spells?


This Mystic Theurge? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.htm)
Wow, I feel dumb. Yes, I misspoke. I meant 3 class levels, but that's obviously not what I said.


Drow Paragon advances Arcane caster level (2/3) and I thought it was 2nd level spells? I do mention it in the original post - one level of Necro or two levels of Paragon will let me qualify
OK, imagine you have Cleric 3/Wizard 1/Drow Paragon 4: you have 3rd-level Cleric spellcasting (i.e. 2nd-level Divine spells), and 3rd-level Wizard spellcasting (i.e. 2nd-level Arcane spells). You now qualify for Mystic Theurge. On the other hand, you are level 7, and you only have 2nd-level spells/CL 3rd. That means compared to a Cleric 7 or a Wizard 7, you have lost four spellcasting levels from each class.

Drow Paragon's basically useless, so ignoring that, we have Cleric 3/Wizard 3 for a 6th-level character that has 3rd-level spellcasting from two sides, i.e. 3 lost spellcasting levels from each.

You will never make that up. Basically, Mystic Theurge is a huge trap. Three levels lost from each side means you will always be dramatically worse off than if you'd just stuck with one class or the other.

[Arcanist]

A lost spellcasting level is almost impossible to make up; very few classes do it, particularly for pure-casters. The stat bonus definitely does not do it.

A Stat bonus is not worth if it means giving up a caster level. Especially if you're going in for a Theurge build... :smallfrown:


For that matter, Mystic Theurge itself is a huge trap. Three lost spellcasting levels basically is impossible to make up. A Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10 is much, much worse than a Cleric 16 or a Wizard 16, and that's literally the absolute best level for a Mystic Theurge.

Correction: Core only Mystic Theurge is a trap. Mystic Theurge + the Complete series allows for some much cheese that my nachos can't even handle it. On that note: The best class for a Theurge is Human StP Spell Focused Erudite and then just add a Divine caster and congratulations you can now get access to 3 sets of 9th level casting if you really bust your hump... Not the point I'm sure though :smallsigh: In a world of TO a Theurge can be singing this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGLnsNPQcls) to you the entire time.


I strongly recommend trying to work something out with your DM where you don't get shafted so hard for doing this.

But yeah, if you really want to go about this route, ask your DM if Drow Paragon can just give you a full caster bonus, because in the long run that +2 dex bonus won't be helping you much besides +1 initiative and +2 AC...

Sorry, if I sounded aggressive in this matter... I guess I picked something up from the previous owner of the Theurge handbook...

[toapat]

Wow, I feel dumb. Yes, I misspoke. I meant 3 class levels, but that's obviously not what I said.


OK, imagine you have Cleric 3/Wizard 1/Drow Paragon 4: you have 3rd-level Cleric spellcasting (i.e. 2nd-level Divine spells), and 3rd-level Wizard spellcasting (i.e. 2nd-level Arcane spells). You now qualify for Mystic Theurge. On the other hand, you are level 7, and you only have 2nd-level spells/CL 3rd. That means compared to a Cleric 7 or a Wizard 7, you have lost four spellcasting levels from each class.

Drow Paragon's basically useless, so ignoring that, we have Cleric 3/Wizard 3 for a 6th-level character that has 3rd-level spellcasting from two sides, i.e. 3 lost spellcasting levels from each.

You will never make that up. Basically, Mystic Theurge is a huge trap. Three levels lost from each side means you will always be dramatically worse off than if you'd just stuck with one class or the other.

Wizard 1/Cleric 2/Mystic Theurge 10 disagrees that you will be impossibly behind, the significant problem is that you are not so much impossibly behind, so much as you are screwed when you want to level to 14

Wizard (Precocious Apprentice)
Cleric
Cleric (Alternate Spell Source)

[LTwerewolf]

After 9 levels of mystic theurge take levels in legacy champion if you're going for cheese. Then have each level of legacy champion mimic the last level of theurge. Not exactly kosher, but hey why not go for broke?

[Arcanist]

Wizard 1/Cleric 2/Mystic Theurge 10 disagrees that you will be impossibly behind, the significant problem is that you are not so much impossibly behind, so much as you are screwed when you want to level to 14

Wizard (Precocious Apprentice)
Cleric
Cleric (Alternate Spell Source)

Not even necessary. Sanctum Spell it for the free +1 bonus to spell level for both your Arcane and divine Spells. In addition to this you can go Extend Spell into Sanctum spell into a Mystic Theurge, but yes. When playing a Mystic Theurge it is possible to get at minimum a -1 to your caster level which is highly unavoidable :smallfrown:

Going with Bamboo Spirit Folk it is entirely possible to get a -2 caster level losing no spell levels :smallsmile:

[Answerer]

Wizard 1/Cleric 2/Mystic Theurge 10 disagrees that you will be impossibly behind, the significant problem is that you are not so much impossibly behind, so much as you are screwed when you want to level to 14
Jeeez, I specifically stated that I was talking about the case of being without early entry tricks. I specifically listed the build in question. I specifically pointed out that early entry tricks can fix things, and recommended he talk to his DM to get in early (without tricks, because that's not the right way to do it).

[panaikhan]

The character does actually have a Legacy Item, and I was thinking about a few levels of Legacy Champion after the first level of MT. He'll hit Epic before he finishes the MT progression anyway.
If MT is such a trap, are there better ways to advance divine and arcane spellcasting?

[Answerer]

Strictly speaking, yes, since Arcane Hierophant does exist, but ultimately trying to mix two different types of spellcasting is the trap. Arcane and divine spells aren't all that different from one another, so you don't gain very much, and since the PrCs involved are hard to get into and have little-to-no class features, it hurts very much to gain very little.

You can improve Mystic Theurge (or any similar thing) with early entry tricks. If you only need to lose 1 level of your main progression to get the secondary one, it's.... less bad.

[Giegue]

As far as caster level is concerned, you can KINDA make that up with the Theurgic Specialist Feat from Dragon 325. It allows you to count the caster level of both your casting classes as your caster level when casting spells from your specialist school. Needless to say, this means you have to be a specialist wizard as one of your base classes. However, since your already a necromancer this is not a bad deal. Also, while talking about Necromancy, this feat is, IMO, pretty ridiculous when combined with Animate Dead. It won't salvage the build, but it is at least SOMETHING to help you. You may also want to look into the other theurge feats from that dragon issue, Theurgic Mount and Theurgic Bond, though out of the three of them Theurgic Specalist is probably the best.

[Twilightwyrm]

The character does actually have a Legacy Item, and I was thinking about a few levels of Legacy Champion after the first level of MT. He'll hit Epic before he finishes the MT progression anyway.
If MT is such a trap, are there better ways to advance divine and arcane spellcasting?

First of all, it is not as huge a trap as the people on here would have you believe. Yes, from a strictly optimization standpoint, losing these caster levels from both sides is crippling, but then again caster optimization needs as many 9th level spell slots as possible ("because batman!" apparently...). From a practical standpoint, judicious use of the many lower level spell slots you get should get you by just fine for the most part.
As far as divine/arcane mixing is concerned, it becomes rather difficult to do much better than you have there, especially on the Cleric side as you are pursuing (It is much easier on the arcane side). Arcane Hierophant from RotW gives actually class features in addition to allowing you to Theurge, including Wild Shape, but requires you get Trackless step somehow. Unless there is some way to get 3rd level arcane spells early, abusing Sublime Chord is out of the question. There are a set of shenanigans to allow clerics to get into Dweomerkeeper without arcane levels, which I'm told produces something similar. Indeed, this class would let you qualify pretty much right now, and would end with you having a divine CL 18, but only progresses one side of your casting, not both. (Assuming you have Magic as one of your Domains)
So abusing the Ur-Priest class aside (which I...discourage), as much as people here might say it is a trap, and talk about needing to "salvage" the build, there really are very few better methods of getting both arcane and divine spell casting (that I know of anyways).

[*.*.*.*]

If your DM is cool with stuff officially supported by WotC(2nd party material), Athas.org has a PrC called Shadow Adept that you may be interested in. Gives 9th level spells arcane spells in 9 levels, making it a superb choice for mystic theurge.

[Hikarizu]

What about Practiced Spellcaster (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/practiced-spellcaster--2231/) or am I missing something?

[LTwerewolf]

What about Practiced Spellcaster (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/practiced-spellcaster--2231/) or am I missing something?

Practiced spellcaster lets you cast spells as if a higher level, but it does not give you additional spells per day or spells known of that higher level.

A level 2 wizard/level 2 fighter with practiced spellcaster wizard casts magic missile as a 4th level wizard, but can't cast level 2 spells.

[Gavinfoxx]

The character does actually have a Legacy Item, and I was thinking about a few levels of Legacy Champion after the first level of MT. He'll hit Epic before he finishes the MT progression anyway.
If MT is such a trap, are there better ways to advance divine and arcane spellcasting?

Yea, Archivist 20. You can get pretty much any arcane spell you want as a divine spell if you know where to look.

[Arcanist]

=> THIS THREAD!!
=>Answerer

Strictly speaking, yes, since Arcane Hierophant does exist, but ultimately trying to mix two different types of spellcasting is the trap. Arcane and divine spells aren't all that different from one another, so you don't gain very much, and since the PrCs involved are hard to get into and have little-to-no class features, it hurts very much to gain very little.

You can improve Mystic Theurge (or any similar thing) with early entry tricks. If you only need to lose 1 level of your main progression to get the secondary one, it's.... less bad.

In my opinion it is best to use Psionics for Schism and Time regression. Also it gives you access to a Cerebremetamagic which you can use to spontaneously apply metamagics to your spells without having to prep them (since if you're going with a Theurge, you are most likely making a Wizard). Honestly a Psychic Theurge/Cerebremancer is far superior then a Mystic Theurge if you really sit back and look at it all.

=>Giegue

As far as caster level is concerned, you can KINDA make that up with the Theurgic Specialist Feat from Dragon 325. It allows you to count the caster level of both your casting classes as your caster level when casting spells from your specialist school. Needless to say, this means you have to be a specialist wizard as one of your base classes. However, since your already a necromancer this is not a bad deal. Also, while talking about Necromancy, this feat is, IMO, pretty ridiculous when combined with Animate Dead. It won't salvage the build, but it is at least SOMETHING to help you.

You *can* supposedly get an infinite caster level due to how Ur-Priest works for determining its caster level... In my opinion Theurgic Specialist is a PRETTY broken feat if properly used. A seriously good reason to want to specialize in Evocations :smalltongue: for Necromancy it is pretty good as well :smallsmile:


You may also want to look into the other theurge feats from that dragon issue, Theurgic Mount and Theurgic Bond, though out of the three of them Theurgic Specalist is probably the best.

Listed in the handbook in my Sig. Some other Theurgic feats are in there as well... I generally ignored the bad ones :smallsigh:

=>panaikhan

The character does actually have a Legacy Item, and I was thinking about a few levels of Legacy Champion after the first level of MT. He'll hit Epic before he finishes the MT progression anyway.
If MT is such a trap, are there better ways to advance divine and arcane spellcasting?

Then it doesn't really matter now does it? :smalltongue: Ah well... Can't remember the trick, but it allowed you to create an infinite loop for increasing Skill Tricks, Legacy feats and I believe Eldritch Blast... Little off topic, but eh

=>*.*.*.*

If your DM is cool with stuff officially supported by WotC(2nd party material), Athas.org has a PrC called Shadow Adept that you may be interested in. Gives 9th level spells arcane spells in 9 levels, making it a superb choice for mystic theurge.

Ooo... Never heard of that... Gotta look that up :smallamused:

=>GavinFoxx

Yea, Archivist 20. You can get pretty much any arcane spell you want as a divine spell if you know where to look.

Ah yes... Alternate Spell Source... how it breaks MANY campaigns :smallamused:

[Urpriest]

I'd only be losing one caster level. Drow Paragon is a 2/3 casting progression.

The main reason I am going Mystic Theurge, is the party has NO arcane spellcasters. Well, it has a Duskblade, but we won't talk any more about that.

If there is a way to maximize damage output from only a few levels of Necro, then i'll do that and pour my levels into Cleric.

The party might not have arcane spellcasters, but it does have a Cleric. Being a better Cleric will allow you to cover the "arcane spellcaster role" much better than taking arcane spellcaster levels at this point.

[Answerer]

First of all, it is not as huge a trap as the people on here would have you believe.
Really, the problem isn't so much what you lose -- it's immense, but then Tier 1 classes can afford to lose it.

The problem is what you get in return for that loss -- which is very little. Many spells are on both lists. Spells that aren't, frequently have analogues on the other. Of spells that are truly unique, many aren't good to begin with. There's only a small subset of spells that are A. good, and B. not available to you anyway. And those are going to be crippled by the fact that you're underleveled.


OP, why are you going Mystic Theurge anyway? What is your goal here? There may be better ways to accomplish what you want than attempting to start Wizard spellcasting this late in your career.

[LTwerewolf]

Really, the problem isn't so much what you lose -- it's immense, but then Tier 1 classes can afford to lose it.

The problem is what you get in return for that loss -- which is very little. Many spells are on both lists. Spells that aren't, frequently have analogues on the other. Of spells that are truly unique, many aren't good to begin with. There's only a small subset of spells that are A. good, and B. not available to you anyway. And those are going to be crippled by the fact that you're underleveled.


OP, why are you going Mystic Theurge anyway? What is your goal here? There may be better ways to accomplish what you want than attempting to start Wizard spellcasting this late in your career.

You're forgetting though that it also nets you a ridiculous amount of spells per day.

[Psyren]

You're forgetting though that it also nets you a ridiculous amount of spells per day.

That should only matter (at mid+ levels) if you're having waaaaaaay more encounters/day than the DMG advises, though.

And when you factor in the MAD, you actually aren't that far ahead of a pure caster who can pump his one and only casting stat to the ceiling for the bonus spells. Or allocate his wealth elsewhere while you're trying to pump the second stat.

Some theurges work extremely well (e.g. Anima Mage, Cerebremancer/PT, Noctumancer) due to synergy but MT - especially bog-standard Clr/Wiz/MT - is rarely one of them.

[Tvtyrant]

The biggest problem with Mystic Theurge IMO is that there are so many better ways to do it. Cleric's get the Anyspell line, which grants you higher level wizard spells than the MT does. Chameleon gets almost analogous casting along with actual class features, and you don't have to play as a several levels behind caster to get into it. Rainbow Warsnake gets 8th level Cleric casting with the most flexible casting mechanic in the game, as well as the Warmage's spells and, once again, anyspell.

[Psyren]

The biggest problem with Mystic Theurge IMO is that there are so many better ways to do it. Cleric's get the Anyspell line, which grants you higher level wizard spells than the MT does. Chameleon gets almost analogous casting along with actual class features, and you don't have to play as a several levels behind caster to get into it. Rainbow Warsnake gets 8th level Cleric casting with the most flexible casting mechanic in the game, as well as the Warmage's spells and, once again, anyspell.

Nitpick on that last one - Anyspell on a Warsnake won't actually do anything (you need a domain slot to prepare the spell in.) But they do get Supreme Anyspell, aka Miracle.

[Answerer]

You're forgetting though that it also nets you a ridiculous amount of spells per day.
No, I'm not, because the amount is hardly "ridiculous" -- it's only slightly higher than a single-classed caster would be at most levels. You have many more lower-level spells, but there is an entire spell level or two that you do not have any of.

For example, let's consider halfway through Mystic Theurge, ignoring cantrips and bonus spells:

{table=head]Build | Arcane Spells | Divine Spells | Total Spells

Cleric 11 | — | 25 spells per day | 25 spells per day

Specialist Wizard 11 | 24 spells per day | — | 24 spells per day

Cleric 3/Spec Wiz 3/Mystic Theurge 5 | 16 spells per day | 16 spells per day | 32 spells per day[/table]

So you have a whopping 11-12 extra spells. Of lower levels. And before worrying about MAD's affect on bonus spells. Huzzah?

[Tvtyrant]

Nitpick on that last one - Anyspell on a Warsnake won't actually do anything (you need a domain slot to prepare the spell in.) But they do get Supreme Anyspell, aka Miracle.

I forgot about that part :smallredface:

[Gavinfoxx]

Ah yes... Alternate Spell Source... how it breaks MANY campaigns :smallamused:

Oh let's see here:

-Cleric
-Paladin
-Ranger
-Druid
-Cleric Domains
-Initiate Feats
-Divine Bard
-Adept
-Cloistered Cleric
-Cleric with Divine Magician feat
-Shugenja
-Wizard with Geomancer levels
-Sorcerer with Geomancer levels
-Divine Prestige classes
-Wizard with Alternative Source Spell feat
-Sorcerer with Alternative Source Spell feat
-Wizard with Southern Magician Feat
-Sorcerer with Southern Magician feat
-Arcanist with prestige classes with either of the above feats or Geomancer
-Warlock with Scribe Scroll and either of the above feats or Geomancer

YES, you can get any spell you want; there IS a way!

[LTwerewolf]

Archivist/wizard isn't as MAD as people are saying, and using early entry tricks you're only a level behind, plus you can learn nearly every spell in the game barring some of the spells only available to certain arcane casters (like sorc only spells)

[Gavinfoxx]

Archivist/wizard isn't as MAD as people are saying, and using early entry tricks you're only a level behind, plus you can learn nearly every spell in the game barring some of the spells only available to certain arcane casters (like sorc only spells)

The thing is you can learn all of that -- including sorc only spells -- with only Archivist 20. See my above post.

[Psyren]

Archivist/wizard isn't as MAD as people are saying, and using early entry tricks you're only a level behind, plus you can learn nearly every spell in the game barring some of the spells only available to certain arcane casters (like sorc only spells)

The problem with Archivist/Wizard/MT is that you may as well just be an Archivist. You get access to almost all the same spells, you don't delay your progression, and best of all you get actual class features (e.g. Dread Secret.) The MT gets more lower-level spells, but you get the higher ones faster.

[Gavinfoxx]

The problem with Archivist/Wizard/MT is that you may as well just be an Archivist. You get access to almost all the same spells.

There, fixed!

[Arcanist]

Oh let's see here:

-Arcanist with prestige classes with either of the above feats or Geomancer

I would NEVER take Geomancer levels :smallmad: ... :smallredface:

[nedz]

Well everyone's talking high OP, which we all know the answers for.

But what is the OP level of the OP's party ?
It sounds like they have no arcanist; and either they have another straight cleric/druid/etc. in which case losing three levels of Cleric will matter less to the party, or the rest are all lower tiers in which case the MT will still be ahead of the curve. In fact trading power for flexibility is good generally and more so in this case.

Given that the OP has already invested two levels in the necromancer project she might as well spend one more and get the increased options from MT.

You will end up with a double threat character, which has more options, at the cost of less power.

[Gavinfoxx]

I would NEVER take Geomancer levels :smallmad: ... :smallredface:

Oh for the love of... :facepalm: :facepalm:

[panaikhan]

OK, it's clarification time. Party Makeup:

Raptoran Duskblade 10
Xeph Soulknife 5 / Soulbow 5 (I think),
Elven Rogue 10
Goliath Barbarian 7 / Druid 2 (I think)
Human Dragon Shaman 10
Drow Cleric 6 / Necromancer 1 / Drow Paragon 1.
Goliath traded away his animal companion for something I can't remember.
Drow traded away the familiar for Cursed Glance (if I remember; AFB)
Barbarian and Dragon Shaman are front-line (and do a fair job of it)
Duskblade is our air-support (Raptoran)
Soulbow is our long-range damage.

I took a level in Necromancer for several reasons:
It fitted the character, we were lacking a 'true' wizard, and I was planning on Drow Paragon levels (which advance levels in wizard for males).
there had been a number of times where the party could not 'do' something or other because of the lack of a wizard. The Duskblade's severely restricted spell list did not help either.

On a different note - because of the wording of Legacy Champion, can I use it to advance Necromancer, Drow Paragon and Mystic Theurge, if I so choose (requiring only the 'original' first level of each?)

[Urpriest]

there had been a number of times where the party could not 'do' something or other because of the lack of a wizard. The Duskblade's severely restricted spell list did not help either.


Could you clarify this? While there are a few things I can think of that a party can't do without a Wizard, they all require relatively high level Wizard casting. I mean sure, Clerics can't Teleport, but you can't either. What in particular are you missing?

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, precisely WHICH SPELLS do you need?

You seem to be thinking that the capabilities of Tier 1 arcane characters and Tier 1 divine characters to access the same spells are really separate. News flash: They aren't, and with creativity, you can generally get access to any given spell that you need... IF you have access to high enough spell levels... if you want access to particular, named spells (or effects that do things similar to those spells), than diluting your primary class is generally shooting yourself in the foot!

[Answerer]

To be clear: I'm not here to rain on your parade or tell you not to do anything. I'm merely responding to your stated desires and plans to achieve them with a bit of another viewpoint. I don't think you're going about achieving your goals in the right way, and/or I think you may have under/over estimated the improtance of some goals.


It fitted the character
Clerics generally make more capable necromancers than do Wizards, particularly the traditional horde-of-walking-dead necromancers.


we were lacking a 'true' wizard
Not really important; a party doesn't need one. A Cleric can handle most things a Wizard can anyway.

If there are particular things you need, a Cleric-advancing prestige class that grants them would be a better solution.


I was planning on Drow Paragon levels (which advance levels in wizard for males).
That was a bad plan to begin with. Drow Paragon is not a good class for, well, anyone. If you want the flavor of being a drow's drow, it would have been better to take one of the many drow-centric Cleric prestige classes.


On a different note - because of the wording of Legacy Champion, can I use it to advance Necromancer, Drow Paragon and Mystic Theurge, if I so choose (requiring only the 'original' first level of each?)
I do not think so, 99% sure it only works for one class (of your choice at each level). I'm not sure if can even advance Mystic Theurge, though it might.

[toapat]

I'm not sure if can even advance Mystic Theurge, though it might.

it can

the most significant problems with Mystic Theurge are these:

Other then (Archivist + Wizard) or (Sorcerer+Favored Soul (much worse option)), you are running off of multiple primary attributes, which isnt what you want as a caster.

You have to convince your DM to allow you to use PF Mystic Theurge to get class features

In all Three Editions, Mystic Theurge does not have a deep enough progression to allow for it to be a full class completion. This can somewhat be countered in 3.5 with the Legacy Champion (Preferable) or Uncanny Trickster (Too shallow). Legacy champion would probably be more choice here, but neither of them will advance your spellcasting at first level.

Advantages of doing it right:

Wizard 1/Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge (PF-time hopper) 10/The Legacy Champion 6/Wizard 1

Archivist 17th level, Wizard of 17th level.

Spells per day before Incredibly High Int.:
0th: 8
1st: 9
2nd: 10
3rd: 9
4th: 9
5th: 9
6th: 9
7th: 7
8th: 5
9th: 3

BAB: +11 (Yes, that actually happened, without Fractional BAB)
Base Saves: +8 Fortitude, +5 Reflex, +18 Will (and this is not using Fractional Saves)
There is a feat to get Int to reflex saves at that
Enough Resources that you can effectively take on 7-10 Encounters/day
We can add of our remaining 6 feats, Int to Will and Reflex saves, as well as Int to hp.

Loss: 1 4th level spell slot
4 Wizard Feats
Archivist Class Features
2 hours of prep/day

[panaikhan]

Could you clarify this? While there are a few things I can think of that a party can't do without a Wizard, they all require relatively high level Wizard casting. I mean sure, Clerics can't Teleport, but you can't either. What in particular are you missing?

The DM is a 'by the book' kinda guy. if the adventure requires "spell X cast by a wizard", then NOTHING else will work. If an item is not "Identified", then we don't know to use it. Little things like that. My original character (An Illumian Druid / Beguiler) suffered from exactly the first problem:
DM "The door needs spell X cast by a wizard".
Me "My Beguiler can cast that"
DM "By a WIZARD"
So yeah. I know the character is sub-optimal. Hell, the PARTY is sub-optimal. I'm not looking to take over the world or challenge gods. I'm looking to find every way to be useful (like reducing a mini-BBEG to 2 strength with multiple Rays of Enfeeblement).
I don't have every book. Some of the books quoted repeatedly on these forums I've never even heard of, let alone seen. I'm doing what I can, with what I have.

[Gavinfoxx]

The DM is a 'by the book' kinda guy. if the adventure requires "spell X cast by a wizard", then NOTHING else will work. If an item is not "Identified", then we don't know to use it. Little things like that.

It sounds like he is actually throwing out rules of D&D... like, ignoring the actual rules of the game...

[Answerer]

The DM is a 'by the book' kinda guy. if the adventure requires "spell X cast by a wizard", then NOTHING else will work. If an item is not "Identified", then we don't know to use it. Little things like that. My original character (An Illumian Druid / Beguiler) suffered from exactly the first problem:
DM "The door needs spell X cast by a wizard".
Me "My Beguiler can cast that"
DM "By a WIZARD"
Get a new DM. This guy's awful.

[Urpriest]

The DM is a 'by the book' kinda guy. if the adventure requires "spell X cast by a wizard", then NOTHING else will work. If an item is not "Identified", then we don't know to use it. Little things like that. My original character (An Illumian Druid / Beguiler) suffered from exactly the first problem:
DM "The door needs spell X cast by a wizard".
Me "My Beguiler can cast that"
DM "By a WIZARD"
So yeah. I know the character is sub-optimal. Hell, the PARTY is sub-optimal. I'm not looking to take over the world or challenge gods. I'm looking to find every way to be useful (like reducing a mini-BBEG to 2 strength with multiple Rays of Enfeeblement).
I don't have every book. Some of the books quoted repeatedly on these forums I've never even heard of, let alone seen. I'm doing what I can, with what I have.

There aren't actually any adventures like that, though. They might have existed in 2e, but 3.5 adventures tend to be good about building traps and obstacles from the existing capabilities of your opponents, and there are very few things that are wizard-specific in that vein.

Access to Identify might be worth a dip...but since it's got such a long casting time, is low level, and requires a costly material component, there usually isn't much difficulty in getting an NPC to do it. You won't be doing it until you have lots of downtime anyway.

[Answerer]

Or get Artificer's Monocle (Magic Item Compendium) and kill the identify game forever.

As it should be.

Because it is and always was awful.

[Keld Denar]

. I'm looking to find every way to be useful (like reducing a mini-BBEG to 2 strength with multiple Rays of Enfeeblement).

Multiple applications of Ray of Enfeeblement don't stack. They overlap, and only the strongest one is noticeable.

[Arcanist]

Multiple applications of Ray of Enfeeblement don't stack. They overlap, and only the strongest one is noticeable.

I think he means Ray of Clumsiness. Which can apparently drop an Epic Dragon if you really try hard enough :smallamused:

EDIT: I might be thinking of a different spell... or a specific Spell Combo (Ray of Clumsiness and then Ray of Entropy... Not sure...)

[eggs]

Ray of Clumsiness has the same limitations.

EDIT:
Caught the edit. Presumably it's a reference to Shivering Touch, which is already on the Cleric list, making it much less a benefit of wizard.

[Arcanist]

Presumably it's a reference to Shivering Touch, which is already on the Cleric list, making it much less a benefit of wizard.

The problem I notice is that a lot of the spells that are specific to Clerics require a lot of saves. Ever since I saw Divine Metamagic I realized that Clerics are effectively meant for buffing and a lot of the spells in Core are optimal for buffing... I'm curious why they didn't just make Divine metamagic a friken class feature for Clerics (gained every 5 levels or something like a Bonus feat for Wizards)

[Gavinfoxx]

There's that one ray that can put any animal into a stupor? Are you thinking of that?

[nedz]

No, I suspect its a reference to Shivering Touch, and that Dragons losing Dex as they age.

[Arcanist]

No, I suspect its a reference to Shivering Touch, and that Dragons losing Dex as they age.

OH! NOW I REMEMBER IT! "Maximized Shivering Touch (6th level spell) ends encounters" :smallredface:

How silly of me...

[Gavinfoxx]

Shivering Touch?

Well it's kinda a big combo... if you want to for sure take down something Epic...

You would want to use some combination of, depending on circumstance and particulars, one or more of the following:

Enervation
True Casting
Assay Spell Resistance
Spectral Hand
Arcane Fusion
True Strike
Metamagic Rod of Maximize Spell
Maybe even Limited Wish to autohit, or a Dispel Magic of some kind to take down the Scintillating Scales (which any dragon should totally have. Because, you know. Shivering Touch exists).

To deliver a Shivering Touch reliably to, you know, a BBEG dragon and thereby take them down in one 'strike'.

Of course, this assumes that the GM is having their BBEG's prepare accordingly, and equip themselves well, and anything especially weak to shivering touch will KNOW of this weakness and have the spells to mitigate the problem. If the GM isn't doing that, you definitely don't need to go all out.

And there are LOTS of spells that end encounters. The best ones are high level. Which is why diluting your cleric or wizard with anything that does NOT advance cleric or wizard (ie, any level of anything else) is really a bad idea if your primary job is to end encounters in the group's favor, which is usually the job of a primary spellcaster...

[panaikhan]

Multiple applications of Ray of Enfeeblement don't stack. They overlap, and only the strongest one is noticeable.

Apparently he didn't know that. He applied it as 'damage', and let it stack.

On the Identify spell, he does handwave the long casting time / recovery time, just not the cost - so we can do them overnight (as long as i remembered to buy enough pearls - you don't want to know how much a 100gp pearl actually costs) instead of spending a week trekking back to 'civilisation' with everything and paying someone else (plus the cost of materials) to cast it.

[hoverfrog]

Or get Artificer's Monocle (Magic Item Compendium) and kill the identify game forever.One of the first decent items my artificer ever made was a custom set of goggles of Detect Magic (permanent) and Identify 3/day. Expensive but worth every copper piece.

Also panaikhan, a 100gp pearl for Identify costs 100gp, even when the cost of pearls are inflated or you pick them up cheap. There's an OOT somewhere than mentions that.

[panaikhan]

Also panaikhan, a 100gp pearl for Identify costs 100gp, even when the cost of pearls are inflated or you pick them up cheap. There's an OOT somewhere than mentions that.
What's an OOT? :smallconfused: If you mean OOTS, then he doesn't read them.
To our DM pearls are a tradable commodity, as are gems and other valuable materials. Their 'worth' is not necessarily what you have to pay for them. This is why Appraise gets so much use.

[hoverfrog]

What's an OOT? :smallconfused: If you mean OOTS, then he doesn't read them.I did mean OOTS but my brain is tired. Also your DM is missing out.


To our DM pearls are a tradable commodity, as are gems and other valuable materials. Their 'worth' is not necessarily what you have to pay for them. This is why Appraise gets so much use.Which is a fair ruling IMHO in which case 100gp for a pearl should be the average price. If you're always paying over the odds then he's just using this to deprive you of money. That may or may not be reasonable.

[ericgrau]

Just a quick skim of the thread seems to be saying "Don't play what you like, MT sucks" and "Your DM sucks". It may not be perfect optimization but a MT isn't bad, let him. And all DMs have quirks. Unless they make the game totally unplayable you put up with them and keep playing. If it's something very bad you talk to him.

That said I'd ask the DM to let you retrain 3 of those cleric levels into MT levels or it might be too late for MT. I'd suggest asking him to let you do it gradually, like every time you gain a MT level you gain 2 instead and lose a cleric level.

You can figure out so combo tricks to make MT more worthwhile. I once had a MT with the travel domain for freedom of movement. And benign transposition to swap myself with allies. The armies of illithid were extremely frustrated. Pick swift, immediate and hour/level spells for all but your highest level slots so you can burn spells faster without using combat rounds. Heck you might even put 1 or 2 in your highest level slot since you have a lot of spells. Spell compendium is especially good for swift/immediate spells. Instead of going for raw high level power, cherry pick the most efficient lower level spells from each class like close wounds (spell compendium) and web. These spells remain useful regardless of level and remove a lot of the hurt from your delayed casting. And you get to pick the gems from 2 spell lists instead of 1.

[toapat]

Just a quick skim of the thread seems to be saying "Don't play what you like, MT sucks" and "Your DM sucks". It may not be perfect optimization but a MT isn't bad, let him. And all DMs have quirks. Unless they make the game totally unplayable you put up with them and keep playing. If it's something very bad you talk to him.

the problem is, they are taking the TO stance on MT: Its not worth taking because full casting is worth more (oh, btw, a properly built MT gets full casting AND they get more spellslots per point of Int at any given point. If the average lvl 20 wizard has 36 int, he is getting 6 spells of 9th level. A Mystic Theurge of proper optimization has 7 slots at that same level.), instead of the proper Take Mystic Theurge because it gives you all the options without rediculous ammounts of hastle that a DM can put you through getting the spells of a Wizard on Archivist.

His DM is really an ass though.

[Answerer]

You ask for optimization help, I am going to give you optimization help. Mystic Theurge is a trap -- nothing can help him more than explaining this.

He's welcome to do so anyway if he likes. I even acknowledged that both Cleric and Wizard have plenty of power to spare. But he asked for help building the character, and there are so many better ways to accomplish what he wants.

Basically, he thinks he needs Mystic Theurge to accomplish his goals. I don't believe he does.


And yes, his DM is awful.

[toapat]

Mystic Theurge is a trap

i wouldnt call it a trap, so much as something you have to know you are going to be doing at the very beginning of the character. Yes, you end up being a level behind the spontaineous casters for spell functionallity once you hit lvl 14, and the classes that best do it each get massive and nigh-overpowered spell lists even beforehand.

i do agree that you really shouldnt ever need T0 though to complete your goals.

[Answerer]

OK, Mystic Theurge without early entry is a trap. Early entry is very much not the norm and I don't think it's valid to judge the class's design based on ways of circumventing its usual drawbacks.

[Arcanist]

OK, Mystic Theurge without early entry is a trap. Early entry is very much not the norm and I don't think it's valid to judge the class's design based on ways of circumventing its usual drawbacks.

Wizard/9 Ur-Priest/2 Mystic Theurge/9

There. A Mystic Theurge build with no early entry tricks and enough 9th level spell slots to end the day giggling at the DM as you're spamming gates, time stops and shifting through shapes like a champ.

Not sure the point of my post right here... Just a little bothered that I said that on the first page and it was disregarded :smallfrown:

[Answerer]

That's still largely irrelevant though. He's already got 6 Cleric levels, and Ur-Priest is no more an unusual case than is early entry.

[toapat]

That's still largely irrelevant though. He's already got 6 Cleric levels, and Ur-Priest is no more an unusual case than is early entry.

the simple point is, he is well beyond the point of no return for making an effective Mystic Theurge.

[Arcanist]

the simple point is, he is well beyond the point of no return for making an effective Mystic Theurge.

Agreed. An effective Theurge is a 1-20 journey. You little mistake on your map could wreck everything :smallsigh: