Dragon vs melee party

[Biotroll]

Hiho playground.
I'm DMing for my group again and I'm thinking of pitting my party against a dragon. The problem is that the party is melee heavy and low op so I'm not sure what tactics to use against them. If I get the dragon flying, they will not be able to hurt it seriously, if I let it cast with at least spark of inteligence, they will most likely die since they do not use any tactics at all really, and if I let it stay on ground, it will be just a bit bigger pile of HPs, which is boring.

So, what to do, to make the combat a bit challenging for party that usualy charges everything it sees, but still give them some fair chance of surviving the encounter? I plan them to meet the dragon around lvl13, and their fight should be against red dragon.

BTW, party consists of:
Half-orc barbarian (using orc double axe)
Dwarf figter (shield and axe)
Halfling rogue (twf with kukri, likes to bluff a lot)
Dwarf cleric (shield and hammer, not very good at using spells despite my efforts to help him)

Thanks for any advice. :smallsmile:

[Dusk Eclipse]

You might want to check the Xorvital (I think that is spelled like that) from MM V, it trades away spell casting for some different abilities. It is generally consider to be a trade down in terms of power.

Other option is using a less powerful Dragon and giving him the Half Red Dragon template (be aware that this gives a serious strength boost though)

[GeriSch]

That smells a bit like TPK for me, except as you said, you just stay on the ground and do the full attack routine - and even that could be deadly. But if you do that, you could easily substitute dragon for just another big HD monster, so that wouldn't make much sense.
If you play the dragon intelligently as it should be that will be a hard one for this group. And keep in mind that the CR for dragons assumes the group is planning in advance for the encounter - so tell them very explicitly what they will be up against, they need every bit of preparation they can get for their money.
Maybe it would be a good idea to playtest the encounter beforehand, you should know the stats of your players to make a test run for yourself. Oh, and give them some possibilty to run away if the feces hit the fan - that can be very important.

gr,
Geri

[Diarmuid]

That smells a bit like TPK for me, except as you said, you just stay on the ground and do the full attack routine - and even that could be deadly. But if you do that, you could easily substitute dragon for just another big HD monster, so that wouldn't make much sense.
If you play the dragon intelligently as it should be that will be a hard one for this group. And keep in mind that the CR for dragons assumes the group is planning in advance for the encounter - so tell them very explicitly what they will be up against, they need every bit of preparation they can get for their money.
Maybe it would be a good idea to playtest the encounter beforehand, you should know the stats of your players to make a test run for yourself. Oh, and give them some possibilty to run away if the feces hit the fan - that can be very important.

gr,
Geri

Bolded/Italicized the interesting part. Where are you getting that information from? This basically means that a dragon could not/should not ever be a random encounter and that seems fairly...unintuitive.

[Dusk Eclipse]

It is not stated anywhere; but any dragon played to their strengths and intelligently is actually Under-Cr'd and personally I don't think True Dragons should be a random encounter, Wyverns? sure; but a True Dragon? No, they are supposed to be the biggest, baddest creatures in the game, battles against them should be awesome fights and not by random chance. This is my personal opinion though.

And frankly this party will get slaughtered if they don't prepare accordingly.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

I would throw the party up against a full-power dragon anyways. However, I would do it in a way that encourages the PCs to be smart about how they fight it. This can be accomplished by doing any number of the following:


Have the PCs be in a burning village as the dragon does fly-overs while loudly demanding the townsfolk offer it a virgin or gold or gems. Make sure the PCs have plenty of intact cellars to hide in when they do something stupid.
Have the PCs meet a group of amateur dragon-slayers, all with swords, polearms, shields, and excellent steel armor. Have the PCs run across them later, all burned to a crisp with nary a claw mark upon them.
Same as above, except a few of them come back to town dominated to demand virgins or gold or gems on the dragon's behalf. When questioned they explain that the dragon was able to kill half of them before it even came within a hundred yards of them.
Have the PCs encounter a wizard low on spells. He expresses exasperation that a dragon would be good at counterspelling, and if pressed he reveals that he had to exchange his spellbook for his life. If the party gives him some scrolls he will gladly give them a scrap of paper listing half of the dragon's spells known.


Make sure you give the players at least three hints about anything important. It makes them feel smart, even though you're hand-feeding them most of the time.

[Adamantrue]

Give them a near-miss. The encounter happens outdoors by chance, the dragon is in the air, and it roughs the party up a bit, but a more important concern surfaces (perhaps a rival dragon) shows up and they both take the battle elsewhere.

The party then knows it isn't up for the task, and can begin to prepare accordingly. If you can get the party's pride involved, you could get a series of adventures out of it as they research & get proper resources for the task.

[gr8artist]

Let them get a hold on some flight items. Then proceed to fly and breathe fire everywhere. Focus on support spells and debuffs, stuff where their lack of tactics won't make much difference.
If you're winning, drop and do a full attack. If you're losing, fire off a big spell.
Trust me, even the dullest of characters can surprise you if you push them hard enough.
Humorous anecdote about surprising battle tactics:
I once had a 13 fighter unleash a full attack on a summoned creature while the summoner was preparing to coup-de-gras the fighter's buddy. I thought it was lights out for the buddy, since the fighter wasn't saving him.
The fighter's first two attacks killed the summon. But the summoner was almost 30 feet away. Game over. Then the fighter told me he was going to attack it. I asked him how, and he said he was throwing the sword. I laughed and shrugged, did some math. He rolled at +6, after the distance penalties. Wouldn't you know he got a natural 20? I laughed so hard I gave him "Throw anything" as a bonus feat.

[GeriSch]

@Diarmuid: I can't recall where i have read about that, its been some years since that, but i recall someone stating that encountering a dragon without any preparation should be about CR+4 (beats me who it was, but i think it was one of WotC's designers). And i have to say thats about correct from my experiences, because if i send an "appropriate CR" dragon against a group not knowing about it, they're toast. Literally.

gr,
Geri

[Eldariel]

A Dragon that doesn't fly and breathe isn't much of a Dragon. So you definitely can't cut those out. Which lets us turn to the other topic at hands: The party.


Surely the melees have some ranged capability, backup bows or the like? If not, it's gonna bite them in the ass sooner or later anyways; might as well have the Dragon engage them in the open from range by just strafe breathing but eventually growing bored 'cause they aren't dying fast enough and just flying away or maybe in anticipation of some aid or something.

Or maybe give them access to flying mounts they need anyways to reach some important place beforehand or some such. They could also find out beforehand they need to engage a dragon through some NPCs or whatever and what that entails.

[Kelb_Panthera]

An important question in my mind is this: Did they go looking for a dragon or are you springing one on them?

If they went looking for it, trash 'em. Then taunt them as you fly away leaving them barely alive. Everyone that doesn't know already needs to be taught you don't pick fights with dragons without a mountain of prep and a damn good reason.

If the dragon was your idea and they don't know about it yet, pick another critter. Dragons are a nightmare to a reasonably prep'ed, mid-op party. I get the impression you're not dealing with one of those.

If it's your idea and they already know a dragon is coming up. Maybe use a lesser dragon, or a fake dragon. The real thing will eat them alive unless you play it way too dumb for a dragon.

's my two cp.

[Zherog]

I don't recall if it was said to be CR+4, but otherwise Geri is correct. One of the designers did say essentially what he's repeating here: that the CR of dragons makes the assumption the party knows they'll be encountering a dragon of that color.

As for the actual topic... if you insist on a true dragon, and you want to play it intelligently, then your players are going to have a rough go of it. What you need is to have some sort of "escape plan" built into the encounter. Thomar's got some terrific ideas. You could even take it a step further and have the dragon beat them to within 1 hp of death and then send the PCs back to town, proverbial tail between their legs, demanding proper tribute within 48 hours, "or else."

If your fight is going to take place in a cavern instead of open area, the simple solution is to have a small crevice / crack / cave entrance that the players can squeeze through to make their get-away after taking a thorough beating.

And as an alternative to the whole plan... instead of having them face the dragon now instead use some foreshadowing so that they know about the dragon, and know they're gonna have to do something about it in the near future. Give them every opportunity to do research - about dragons in general and this specifc one. Maybe with a bit of time to prepare, the cleric will pick better spells, they'll pick up some ranged attacks, maybe even hire a wizard.

[blazinghand]

The easiest way to handle a dragon fight is have them fight a non-true dragon. A classic that I like to use is a Half-Dragon Centaur with some sorcerer levels. With 6 levels in sorcerer it comes out to about CR 8, has a 1-shot breath weapon, good spells that you can optimize for buffs and melee fight, and decent hit points if you equip it properly. Plus it is a melee beast and intelligent. Maybe give it some regular Centaur minions and followers if you want to up the CR and make it a more flavorful battle.

I really like what Thomar_of_Uointer said, though-- you should do your best to let the party know what's coming and give them ways to escape, hide, and anticipate a True Dragon encounter.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. Masterwork Nets. Even with the nonproficiency penalty, it's extremely likely to still hit a dragon's touch AC. This is mostly to keep it from flying so they can get a good surround on it. They'll have to ready an action to throw it when the dragon swoops close enough.

2. Tanglefoot Bags. They have better range than a net, and provide some redundancy in case it breaks free of a net.

3. Mass Resist Energy, Spell Compendium. The Cleric will be able to cast it by the time this encounter happens, and they'll get Resistance 30 to the energy type that the dragon uses.

[toapat]

I don't recall if it was said to be CR+4, but otherwise Geri is correct. One of the designers did say essentially what he's repeating here: that the CR of dragons makes the assumption the party knows they'll be encountering a dragon of that color.

As for the actual topic... if you insist on a true dragon, and you want to play it intelligently, then your players are going to have a rough go of it. What you need is to have some sort of "escape plan" built into the encounter. Thomar's got some terrific ideas. You could even take it a step further and have the dragon beat them to within 1 hp of death and then send the PCs back to town, proverbial tail between their legs, demanding proper tribute within 48 hours, "or else."

If your fight is going to take place in a cavern instead of open area, the simple solution is to have a small crevice / crack / cave entrance that the players can squeeze through to make their get-away after taking a thorough beating.

And as an alternative to the whole plan... instead of having them face the dragon now instead use some foreshadowing so that they know about the dragon, and know they're gonna have to do something about it in the near future. Give them every opportunity to do research - about dragons in general and this specifc one. Maybe with a bit of time to prepare, the cleric will pick better spells, they'll pick up some ranged attacks, maybe even hire a wizard.

just a quick note, there is a True dragon who is effective, doesnt have a full attack capable of wrecking a small continent worth of soldiers, can fly, has some decent spellcasting, and has pitiful health

a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer

[DarkestKnight]

I can't recall where i saw it but it was suggested that you could take away spell casting levels from a dragon and give it martial Initiator levels on a 1 to 1 ratio. I don't remember if it was something i read here or in a book, but it could be something worth considering.

you could also change the dragon to another type more suited to melee than a red, a fang dragon for example which has no breath weapon but can do con damage on bites.

[LTwerewolf]

This will sound harsh, but sometimes you need a tpk to teach the PCs that they need to use tactics and planning. They might not appreciate it immediately, but after they start planning and thinking about what they're doing they're going to enjoy the game more.

[blazinghand]

This will sound harsh, but sometimes you need a tpk to teach the PCs that they need to use tactics and planning. They might not appreciate it immediately, but after they start planning and thinking about what they're doing they're going to enjoy the game more.

I strongly disagree with this. It's not too unreasonable that a party would be more focused on melee than ranged, and as the OP noted, their cleric is still a beginner and hasn't learned how to fully utilize his spell list. How will the newbie cleric player learn anything from getting stomped by a dragon? It'll just frustrate him and make him probably not like D&D.

If you want to teach a party, you don't do it via TPK, you do it via the methods Thomar outlined.

[Malroth]

Burn them to a crisp without ever entering melee range and let them roll up some better characters.

[only1doug]

I would recommend that you give the party plenty of warning of what they are facing, plenty of time to plan, then let them face the dragon. Let some of them live to demand tribute or somesuch and kill the rest (unless they win).
Harsh but the only other option is to save the dragon until the party are much higher level.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Burn them to a crisp without ever entering melee range and let them roll up some better characters.

I once punished a similar party with a Dragonkin Sorcerer 8 and a Dragonkin Fighter 4 dual-wielding javelins. That happens to be only an EL 10 encounter, and they were not at all happy with the outcome.

[toapat]

personally, i say drop a Dragonwrought White Gold Kobold on them with total sorc optimization.

sure, its over twice their CR, but they deserve it

[RFLS]

personally, i say drop a Dragonwrought White Gold Kobold on them with total sorc optimization.

sure, its over twice their CR, but they deserve it

Woah, slow your roll. They might not be the most optimized party, but that's not cause for a TPK. I would suggest milder methods of teaching them tactics, first. Perhaps the wildly novel idea of actually, uhm, teaching them. Not every group treats the Playground as Gospel.

[TuggyNE]

Woah, slow your roll. They might not be the most optimized party, but that's not cause for a TPK. I would suggest milder methods of teaching them tactics, first. Perhaps the wildly novel idea of actually, uhm, teaching them. Not every group treats the Playground as Gospel.

Or more precisely: not everyone has taken the time yet to familiarize themselves with higher op principles, which is not a crime, or deserving of random double-CR TPK.

[Malroth]

Doesn't have to be Double their CR, Hell a CR-2 Juvinile played smart could and should wipe the floor with them,

[toapat]

Woah, slow your roll. They might not be the most optimized party, but that's not cause for a TPK. I would suggest milder methods of teaching them tactics, first. Perhaps the wildly novel idea of actually, uhm, teaching them. Not every group treats the Playground as Gospel.

im taking the dragon assumptions for CR, which is 1Sorc lvl=2CR.

granted, Sorcs have 1/3rd the hit die of dragons.

hell, the Doombold would have even less then his hitdice, he would instead have +4 Sorcerer level from optimization

[BowStreetRunner]

No battle can be fought effectively without first paying due consideration to terrain. There have been plenty of real-world battles between air and ground units that did not go as the air units could have wished.

A battle with a dragon fought on an open plain is a recipe for disaster from the PC point of view. On the other hand, mountainous terrain with narrow passages, forest terrain with trees and overhead cover, cavernous terrain and tunnels, aquatic terrain, or even some combination of these all give the PCs options that may reduce the dragon's advantage.

So even if you do nothing else to nerf the dragon or boost the party, you may help the party considerably by setting the battle in terrain favorable to them.

Another major consideration in combat and one important when choosing terrain is the relative objectives of the two forces. If the PCs are in a situation where they must go after the dragon, then they have to go where it goes in order to fight it. The dragon can hang back and wait for them to come to it.

On the other hand, if it is strongly motivated to attack them - they have something it wants or are blocking its path to somewhere it needs to go - then it will have to fight them on their terms.

[RFLS]

Doesn't have to be Double their CR, Hell a CR-2 Juvinile played smart could and should wipe the floor with them,

I'm going to spell it out for you, and then give up in disgust. Not. Everyone. Optimizes. This is fine. Not. Everyone. Plays. Smart. This is also fine.

If what you you said is your honest opinion, I pray that I never end up at your table, because that would be horrible DMing.


im taking the dragon assumptions for CR, which is 1Sorc lvl=2CR.

granted, Sorcs have 1/3rd the hit die of dragons.

hell, the Doombold would have even less then his hitdice, he would instead have +4 Sorcerer level from optimization

That....doesn't address what I said in any way, shape, or form.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I can't recall where i saw it but it was suggested that you could take away spell casting levels from a dragon and give it martial Initiator levels on a 1 to 1 ratio. I don't remember if it was something i read here or in a book, but it could be something worth considering.

you could also change the dragon to another type more suited to melee than a red, a fang dragon for example which has no breath weapon but can do con damage on bites.

Dragons of Eberron (DoE) presents a number of different draconic Archetypes. The one that you're referring to is Wyrm of War, and it lets him trade out his spellcasting for access to the Tiger Claw discipline.

[Malroth]

Not everyone optimizes this is fine

Very true but the optimizers and the DM should at least speak to them to help them create characters who are as cool in system as they are in the players heads


Not. Everyone. Plays. Smart. This is also fine.
I disagree with this one, If a group of 4 uberchargers starts wandering around the countryside sucessfully killing anything it can get in melee and becoming rich and famous for doing so, I'm fairly certian anything with an INT score greater than 6 would do everything within its abilities to make sure that it doesn't engage in melee with them. If the players want to be able to utilize their stregnths as they become increasingly well known they need to become increasingly well prepared against countermeasures or finding locations where those countermeasures are moot.

[Reynard]

Very true but the optimizers and the DM should at least speak to them to help them create characters who are as cool in system as they are in the players heads


I disagree with this one, If a group of 4 uberchargers starts wandering around the countryside sucessfully killing anything it can get in melee and becoming rich and famous for doing so, I'm fairly certian anything with an INT score greater than 6 would do everything within its abilities to make sure that it doesn't engage in melee with them. If the players want to be able to utilize their stregnths as they become increasingly well known they need to become increasingly well prepared against countermeasures or finding locations where those countermeasures are moot.

I'm looking at the OP, and I'm seeing maybe one actual ubercharger. Maybe.

'Charging everything they see' doesn't mean that all 4 of them are just one-shotting everything mildly hostile that crosses their path. They don't have any other options besides charging to deal with the distance problems. Considering the DM is saying that this isn't the most optimised bunch, I'm betting that's what we've got here.

[RFLS]

I disagree with this one, If a group of 4 uberchargers starts wandering around the countryside sucessfully killing anything it can get in melee and becoming rich and famous for doing so, I'm fairly certian anything with an INT score greater than 6 would do everything within its abilities to make sure that it doesn't engage in melee with them. If the players want to be able to utilize their stregnths as they become increasingly well known they need to become increasingly well prepared against countermeasures or finding locations where those countermeasures are moot.

...Are you aware that not everyone is capable of playing this game at that level? Nor does everyone enjoy playing it at that level. If that's how they want/can play the game, why would you punish them for that? It's childish.

[toapat]

That....doesn't address what I said in any way, shape, or form.

im saying that im most likely not correct in the CR of the kobold.

[RFLS]

im saying that im most likely not correct in the CR of the kobold.

That does not address what I said. I was telling you that you are, in fact, wrong that the party deserves to be TPKed. See my replies to Malroth.

[LeshLush]

RFLS is a man of great wisdom and character. Listen to him.

[Alokue]

RFLS is a man of great wisdom and character. Listen to him.

That's a dirty lie! You shut your ---- mouth!

Edit: for your viewing pleasure.
[10:47:16 PM] Andrew: hahaha, dude, you're going to get banhammered for that
[10:47:40 PM] Morpheous: they don't do warnings on this server?
[10:47:40 PM] Morpheous: lame.
[10:47:52 PM] Andrew: they do, but I'm pretty sure that one just goes straight to ban xD
[10:48:00 PM] Morpheous: what 'whore'?
[10:48:09 PM] Andrew: the whole statement, I'd think
[10:48:29 PM] Morpheous: for...being off topic?
[10:48:30 PM] Morpheous: or?
[10:48:42 PM] Andrew: for being off topic/foul language
[10:48:46 PM] Morpheous: cause his isn't on topic.
[10:48:54 PM] Andrew: btw, my two warnings are for "flaming/trolling" and "vigilante modding" xD
[10:49:05 PM] Morpheous: lmao
[10:49:25 PM] Morpheous: is foul language really not allowed? that's lame.
[10:49:31 PM] Morpheous: so if I change it to just off topic
[10:49:35 PM] Morpheous: then they probly won't ban?
[10:49:36 PM] Andrew: you should be fine, yeah

[LordBlades]

Playing dumb or low-op should only be punished when they players were asked not to, and only as a last resort solution after talking to them IMO.

If the DM was asking for strong characters and got his current party then maybe he'd be entitled to teach them a lesson, but that doesn't seems to be the case.

After all, who wouldn't be upset if they showed up with a low tier character to a game where no preferred power level was indicated and then got their characters killed off for not being able to pull off tier 1 tricks?

IMO, in the current situation the DM has 2 main options:

-dumb down the dragon. Make a dragon that prefers to melee(even against obvious no-range enemies), be it out of arrogance or sheer stupidity or whatever reason you can come up with.

-make it obvious(via indirect methods as others suggested above) that fighting a dragon is getting in over their heads, at least unless they get a way to reliably engage a flying creature with ranged attacks.

[RFLS]

RFLS is a man of great wisdom and character. Listen to him.



RFLS is a man of great wisdom and character. Listen to him.
That's a dirty lie! You shut your ---- mouth!

I'm not sure which one I want to sig xD

[RFLS]

-dumb down the dragon. Make a dragon that prefers to melee(even against obvious no-range enemies), be it out of arrogance or sheer stupidity or whatever reason you can come up with.

-make it obvious(via indirect methods as others suggested above) that fighting a dragon is getting in over their heads, at least unless they get a way to reliably engage a flying creature with ranged attacks.

I would agree that these are your two best options; as mentioned previously, the Xorvintaal template from MMV is a great way to tone down a dragon. Alternatively, you can take the stats of a Wyvern or similar critter and refluff it to be an actual dragon.

If you go the other way, and the group is not known for tactical decisions, they may take your hints as a challenge, which would...not end well.

[BowStreetRunner]

So, what to do, to make the combat a bit challenging for party that usualy charges everything it sees, but still give them some fair chance of surviving the encounter? *emphasis added

Note the OP's request was not to be told whether to kill off the party or not. He clearly wants the party to have a fair chance of surviving the encounter. So it is not entirely productive to respond by telling him "that the party deserves to be TPKed." Let's please stay on-topic here and help the OP, not chide him for having a different DM style than another of us might prefer.

I stand by my original idea of putting the encounter in terrain where the dragon cannot use his flight to full advantage and the party has more melee options. I also think that it is important to make sure that the dragon has a reason to stay and fight them there rather than hang back and wait for more favorable circumstances.

If the DM wants to help the party set up more appropriately beforehand, maybe a few encounters with low-CR flying creatures in the days beforehand might encourage them to invest in ranged weapons or flying options without specifically having to tell them.

[AwkwardTurtle]

RFLS is a man of great wisdom and character. Listen to him.

Oh goodness I never thought I'd hear that about him. Thank you for making my night

[LeshLush]

Some people are complaining are making the claim that the dragon will curbstomp the party "if it is played at all intelligently." I think it's important to remember the skill level of a monster never exists in a vacuum. It is always relative to the skill level of the players. So maybe you don't play it with as much intelligence as you would against a team of seasoned optimizers. Just use tactics that make it seem smart compared to other fights that have occurred in your campaign.

CR is also relative. If an "appropriately CRed" dragon is too powerful for the party to face, than its CR isn't really appropriate. Look over the statblocks of weaker dragons and find one of lower CR that seems about right for the way your party fights. That way, you can trick your players into bunch together, punish them with a breath weapon that doesn't kill them, and watch them get scared and adjust on the fly. They'll feel like they fought somebody really tough even if the dragon supposedly isn't by some nonexistent objective standard.

[TuggyNE]

CR is also relative. If an "appropriately CRed" [monster] is too powerful for the party to face, than its CR isn't really appropriate.

This is also wisdom, and quite generally applicable.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The idea that a CR 2 dragon could wipe the party is potentially misguided, but it does bring up an interesting idea. Why not present the party with very, very under-CR'd opponents who nonetheless create a significant challenge due to the group's lack of tactics + the enemy's special abilities which happen to be shared by dragons? The worst case scenario is that they can brute force it (or run) anyway since the enemy's damage output likely isn't very big; the best case is that they learn how to counter some basic tactics and abilities in a safe setting. And if you really want to "punish" your players for playing a super-simple style, all you have to do is follow the XP and loot guidelines in the DMG for such a "weak" encounter.

[TuggyNE]

The idea that a CR 2 dragon could wipe the party is potentially misguided, but it does bring up an interesting idea. Why not present the party with very, very under-CR'd opponents who nonetheless create a significant challenge due to the group's lack of tactics + the enemy's special abilities which happen to be shared by dragons? The worst case scenario is that they can brute force it (or run) anyway since the enemy's damage output likely isn't very big; the best case is that they learn how to counter some basic tactics and abilities in a safe setting. And if you really want to "punish" your players for playing a super-simple style, all you have to do is follow the XP and loot guidelines in the DMG for such a "weak" encounter.

... Tucker's Dragons? :smallconfused:

[GolemsVoice]

You could also, this once, flat out tell the party: "Hey, if you want to fight the dragon, it WILL be difficult, because he can easily defeat you if you play the way you're usually playing. Why not try out some tactics and spells and see if you can defeat it? Because otherwise, encounters at higher levels could be either boring "full-attack-routines" or TPKs"

Make it clear that they're not to blame, and their way of playing is fine (if you don't like it, you could drop some hints that maybe they should try out new things to be competitive) but tell them that, if they want to have a chance against higher level monsters (let alone casters, but the inherent disadvantage of melee isn't their fault entirely) they have to use all their ressources, especially the cleric's spells.
Maybe even give them some pointers, like what spells to use and what tactics could be fun. You could even present them in form of an ingame story, like a group of dragon hunters telling their tales. "And then the dragon let lose his mighty fire-breath, but thanks to my friend Bragan here's spell, I merely felt a tingle! Then we brought out our nets here..."

[jackattack]

1. Lose the wings. Use one of the many wingless dragons, give the dragon an old debilitating injury that prevents flight, or just leave the wings off of a standard dragon.

2. Terrain. As others have said. Create an environment where movement becomes a factor, and cover and even stealth might come into play. A forest with heavy overhead, a cave system with lots of interconnecting tunnels, or whatever. Give the dragon the chance to use hit-and-run tactics, and the players lots of places to take cover from breath weapon. Also, there can be places where the dragon is fighting some of the party, but the terrain leaves it exposed to attack by others that it can't get at unless it moves.

3. Dragon tactics. Give the dragon a tactic that the party can figure out and respond to. For example, the dragon might spend two rounds in melee, cast a spell, run off into the trees/tunnels, then charge the character who is most isolated from the group, and spend two more rounds in melee. Repeat. This allows the players to adapt, and encourages them to create tactics in response (hopefully). What you would expect to see is the party fighting the two rounds in melee, ducking and covering against the spell, going full attack when it runs, putting the least-injured/best-armored character out as bait, and going full attack when it returns.

[Alabenson]

... Tucker's Dragons? :smallconfused:

:smalleek::smallamused: You've just given me an incredibly evil idea for the next game I run.

[toapat]

... Tucker's Dragons? :smallconfused:

the better part?: Tucker was already using dragons

[StreamOfTheSky]

Rather than spend time making my own long post, it can be sufficiently summed up as:

BowStreetRunner nailed this. You should listen to him. Seriously.


As for BSR's mention of objectives mattering, this is even more important than the terrain aspect...because it will determine the terrain. Simply put, if the PCs need to stop the dragon (from attacking villagers, for instance)...they're boned. Can't draw the dragon to more cramped terrain when they're the reacting side.

If however the dragon is after them specifically, then fleeing for better position IS totally possible -- if the DM provides a location in close proximity to do so.

[nedz]

If the Dragon is cornered on the ground (or in a cave) then I suspect that this lot will charge in and pagger it. This might be fun since its likely to be the first time.

Alternatively you could go for a psychological approach.

Use a youngish Dragon and just have it circle them. This should cause mild panic. After a couple of circuits it should fly over them and breath. Its tactic should be to try and split the group and target anyone who goes off alone. Assuming that they are not totally incompetent: this will result in them loosing their bows in it's general direction. After they have done it a fair amount of damage, it will fly off.

As they trek on ask for spot rolls occasionally. Tell them that they see the Dragon flying a few miles to the north.

Later, when they are resting in a town and think that they are safe, have the Dragon attack the town and carry off a couple of its townsfolk.

The party can try to track down the Dragon's lair if they want, which will give them a chance to kill it, but it's not coming out for a few weeks since it has enough to eat now.

[Duboris]

I think a generally large factor your not considering is terrain. Fights can get 100 times harder/easier if you put a creature in a favored terrain, but this isn't what you want to do.

It would be really easy to set it up along the lines of something sort of... Last Colossus on Shadow of the Colossus and have them dodge constant rays of scorching hellfire while they ran toward whichever dragon it is.

Essentially what I would do is have it fly over, and give them a nice surprise round fire breath, and then have it perch on its little hill, preferably on top of a pile of ruins. At that point, have them go through the ruins, constantly dodgding the every-round fire breaths, and eventually get into melee with them.

Now when they finally get within melee range, they'll be down a few hit points which will probably make them a little more cautious about just smacking it over and over, especially if someone gets their early and you grapple him, as you should.

The only way your going to teach someone to think before they act is if you give them a dam good reason to. Near-Death seems to be a pretty good kick start.

[dspeyer]

Why do you want a dragon? Is it part of the plot? Do you just like dragons?

There are various ways to nerf a dragon, but which is appropriate depends on what else is going on in the campaign.

[Biotroll]

Thanks for responses so far.

First things first, yes the dragon in question is part of plot. He should be trapped somewhere under old old castle, because he once was causing destruction all around. Then he was trapped, because he couldn't be killed at the time (deal with devils). So evil side now tries to release him and good guys (ehm, well at least the neutral guys) are trying to stop them and the dragon. I plan the evil guys to actualy make the ritual to set the dragon free, but at the same time let the party to get their ritual done so they can actualy kill him.

Enough rambling though. I think I will send a weak white dragon (without magic) at them first, so they know what they are against (and use the dragon to make winter come faster and whatnot...). This way they should get some hold of tactics. I'm thinking of giving them nets and some NPC party support at this fight, with some time to prepare too. This way they could also get cloaks done from the wings for some flight against the red dragon latter on.

So, uh, if anyone has any idea it would be nice. :smallsmile:
PS: Wrote the post in hurry, sorry for any mistakes.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Watch them carefully after the white dragon. If they don't start talking tactics, or luck allows them to crush the encounter, keep the evil in its can. Let the party arive just in time to stop the ritual. Otherwise, the situation should resolve nicely if you just make sure they understand that a red is like a white X3 and on fire.

[Duboris]

Thanks for responses so far.

First things first, yes the dragon in question is part of plot. He should be trapped somewhere under old old castle, because he once was causing destruction all around. Then he was trapped, because he couldn't be killed at the time (deal with devils). So evil side now tries to release him and good guys (ehm, well at least the neutral guys) are trying to stop them and the dragon. I plan the evil guys to actualy make the ritual to set the dragon free, but at the same time let the party to get their ritual done so they can actualy kill him.

Enough rambling though. I think I will send a weak white dragon (without magic) at them first, so they know what they are against (and use the dragon to make winter come faster and whatnot...). This way they should get some hold of tactics. I'm thinking of giving them nets and some NPC party support at this fight, with some time to prepare too. This way they could also get cloaks done from the wings for some flight against the red dragon latter on.

So, uh, if anyone has any idea it would be nice. :smallsmile:
PS: Wrote the post in hurry, sorry for any mistakes.

A white dragon in the air during a blizzard is a true, honest-to-goodness nightmare. The only thing you could affectively hit one would be spells, because the blizzard would be causing havoc on every bow the party owns.

Not to mention that in 10 rounds, they'd all be in rough terrain.

DnD blizzards are cruel.

I love them.

[LeshLush]

A white dragon in the air during a blizzard is a true, honest-to-goodness nightmare. The only thing you could affectively hit one would be spells, because the blizzard would be causing havoc on every bow the party owns.

Not to mention that in 10 rounds, they'd all be in rough terrain.

DnD blizzards are cruel.

I love them.
That does sound like a nice encounter.

I have a weakness for throwing white dragons into ice caverns, because whenever I read through the Monster Manual and see their icewalking ability, I always feel like I have to find a way for them to use it.

[eggs]

The Oriental Adventures Lung Dragons are big and bruiserish with flashy powers, but they lack the spellcasting and many lack the breath weapons that would normally keep the melee characters out of reach. It still wouldn't necessarily be an easy fight (they're still big fast lizards with flashy supernatural abilities), but it should at least be a game the characters are able to play.

The encounter you have sounds cool, but don't be surprised if you either have to hold back or to let them run away to plan a less direct approach in fighting it.

[jaybird]

... Tucker's Dragons? :smallconfused:


the better part?: Tucker was already using dragons

Now add baskets of Kobolds strapped to the backs of said dragons...

http://www.amovieaweek.com/images/clip_image003_0000.jpg

[Duboris]

The Oriental Adventures Lung Dragons are big and bruiserish with flashy powers, but they lack the spellcasting and many lack the breath weapons that would normally keep the melee characters out of reach. It still wouldn't necessarily be an easy fight (they're still big fast lizards with flashy supernatural abilities), but it should at least be a game the characters are able to play.

The encounter you have sounds cool, but don't be surprised if you either have to hold back or to let them run away to plan a less direct approach in fighting it.

I'm going to assume that if they're walking into a White Dragon's territory, the place should, at the very least, be frozen over. It's not natural for a white dragon to live in a place that has the color green, let alone a clear sky. The Icewalk could easily be done just by having a frozen sort of river around the ruins the bad guys are in, and having it engage them there.

Not only will it have free reign to walk around with no trouble, it could also be punching holes in the terrain, potentially making it even more dangerous.

The water they could potentially fall in would do 2d6 cold damage every round they were inside it.

[toapat]

Now add baskets of Kobolds strapped to the backs of said dragons...

except that you miss the problem there: Kobolds are to dragons as Mongrelfolk are to everyone else in the game. Kobolds are dragons, just not big and powerful ones

[TuggyNE]

except that you miss the problem there: Kobolds are to dragons as Mongrelfolk are to everyone else in the game. Kobolds are dragons, just not big and powerful ones

Ordinary kobolds ... aren't. They're distantly related, sure, but they have a different type and no particular subtype advantages. It's only DWKs that are dragons at all.

[toapat]

Ordinary kobolds ... aren't. They're distantly related, sure, but they have a different type and no particular subtype advantages. It's only DWKs that are dragons at all.

being the lowest common denominator of a plethora of species can change one's type (Mongrelfolk are what happens when every half human interbreeds far enough, to the point that they no longer have the type of outsider or humanoid, but monsterous humanoid)

[Duboris]

The fact remains, if you're going to toss a dragon at the team to give them an idea of what dragons are truly capable of, you have a few options.

If they decide to wait till night-fall to go to the nearby place, send a black dragon adult at them. At night. They're possibly the stealthiest of the dragons, the evil one's, anyway.

If they go at any other time, give them a frozen hell with the white dragon.

I'd personally throw a green one at them, but that would wreak a bit of havoc on their equipment...

[Rubik]

It's all in the setup. Have the party meet a gnome with a newfangled quick-loading catapult in a heavy-duty fireproof (or acidproof, or whatever) cart, and when they're out and about have the dragon attack. Then it's a running battle as the party rides on a runaway cart with the gnome at the wheel (as it were) with the dragon performing strafing attacks (for whatever reason you see fit). Then when the party runs out of ammo they can fling themselves at the dragon, assuming you treat the aerial assaults as uber-charges for lots of damage.

[Allanimal]

I'm thinking of giving them nets and some NPC party support at this fight, with some time to prepare too.

Whatever you do, do not "give" them an über-powerful DMPC who saves the day. Doing so takes away any sense of accomplishment if they win. They should not feel like spectators in the game of DM's dragon vs. DM's NPC.

[only1doug]

Whatever you do, do not "give" them an über-powerful DMPC who saves the day. Doing so takes away any sense of accomplishment if they win. They should not feel like spectators in the game of DM's dragon vs. DM's NPC.

Or alternatively, give them an uber powerful NPC, who gives them tactical advice, teaches them how to fight dragons, whittles down its hitpoints a bit and then gets eaten (not swallowed whole, chewed up and then swallowed)

[RFLS]

Or alternatively, give them an uber powerful NPC, who gives them tactical advice, teaches them how to fight dragons, whittles down its hitpoints a bit and then gets eaten (not swallowed whole, chewed up and then swallowed)

This is flat-out bad advice. It feels contrived and makes the PCs feel worthless. If you do it badly, it'll break verisimilitude. If you're trying for any sort of seriousness at all, please, for the love of PunPun, don't do this.

[Malroth]

give them a NPC marshal 1 level lower than the party buffing accuracy and will saves and a squad of 2nd lv mooks, have them be competent in tactics but lack any sort of indivual asskickery, they'll provide some archery support and possibly correct some of the stupider tactics but will really need the pc's to carry the encounter or will die horribly leaving the pc's to pick up the slack.

[nedz]

If you're going for NPC support, give them some low level NPCs whose job is to get eaten by the dragon. Bonus points if you make the NPCs liked by the party.

[Biotroll]

I think I'll settle with announced white dragon and NPCs for now. I was thinking of introducing rival party of NPCs anyway, so my PCs have some competition. Not going to do DMPCs of them for sure. I'm thinking of druid for some resists and heals, barbarian for net tossing and trying to hold the dragon down and ranger to help barbarian and throwing tanglefoot bag or two at dragon. Party should do the rest and should they get hurt badly, I'll let the dragon escape (most likely going to be badly wounded too) so they can track him down a bit latter and face him with a new strategy.

So the last question is: What music do you recommend for dragon slaying action? :smalltongue:

And as bonus (if you are bored), names for the three NPCs? Probably going to make druid a female half-elf, ranger is going to be human male and barbarian is going to be dwarf male.

[RFLS]

Pokemon battle music. Always.

[Malroth]

Pokemon battle music. Always.

Diamond and Pearl Champion Cynthia battle specifically.

[Rubik]

So the last question is: What music do you recommend for dragon slaying action? :smalltongue:The Okami soundtrack might be good for this. My internet is slow as crap for the moment so I can't give links, but go to Youtube and look up the "Okami OST" followed by "Twin Devils Moshirechik and Kotanechik's Extermination" and "Demon Lord Nine-Tail's Extermination."

[Biotroll]

The Okami soundtrack might be good for this. My internet is slow as crap for the moment so I can't give links, but go to Youtube and look up the "Okami OST" followed by "Twin Devils Moshirechik and Kotanechik's Extermination" and "Demon Lord Nine-Tail's Extermination."

This is really great, thanks for tip. :smallsmile:

Also thanks to everyone for replies. This thread can now be closed I guess.

[ShurikVch]

Hey, in the last moment

How to make a non-flying dragon:
1. Mineral warrior template.
2. Rattelyr don't have a wings. And chole dragon have tentacles for wings.

How to make a non-casting dragon:
1. The Nameless template takes away spellcasting and SLA.
2. Make it too young or dimwitted dragon.
3. Planar dragons don't have spellcasting at all.

The last thing - if you have a melee party, give them a "melee" dragon:smallcool: For example, dragon-war hulk or frenzy berserker...

If you want to make encounter a bit easy to them without under-CR dragon, you can give something which, while heightening the CR, doesn't do much for actual power. Such as NPC class levels or stacked half-dragon templates...