Martial Arts in the Playground

[Morph Bark]

I noticed that there wasn't yet a topic about martial arts, combat sports and self-defence training here, and as I myself am interested and looking into getting into it right now I created this topic to see if there are out there who want to talk about this.

Maybe even give tips or tell me what their favourite one is so my choice in picking one of them becomes even harder. :smalltongue: Currently mainly looking into judo, karate, taekwondo and boxing.

For bonus points:
I also occassionally LARP and would be interested in finding martial arts that utilize weapons that are roughly similar in practice to LARP fighting. This is of course definitely not for self-defense, nor for exercise, but purely for the fun of it. A friend of mine does fencing, but I've noticed that it heavily depends on which of the three fencing styles you use whether they're appropriate in LARPs or not. I thought kendo might work, but I think that focuses too much on hitting the head? I've also been told of Wu Shu, but that is more of a broad term. Are there any others?

[Morbis Meh]

Right now I am looking into joining up with a local judo club, I have always been interested and I have the proper body type (short and broad). The only other forms I have taken throughout the course of my life were: Karate (too young to focus so I was pulled out) and standard wrestling (would have kept with it but i changed schools). I also have the ability to study western martial arts witha group called The Knights of the Northern Realm but alas I do not have the money to be able to afford all of the equipment (full suit of era accurate armour) otherwise I would learn swordfighting.

[Anarion]

I did Taekwondo for two years in college, and Hapkido for three years when I was young (age 8-11).

Between the two, I think looking back that Hapkido was much more broad. It taught strikes, kicks, holds, and a couple throws at least going up through a red belt, which is kinda the upper part of the different colors before black belt. Taekwondo was much more competition-focused and really taught the moves one would use in an olympic or college match, mainly assorted kicks and such. Both arts also had longer forms that are used for shows and practice, but that obviously aren't practical.

I will say, in Taekwondo's favor, that because it was competition-focused, they did a little more to work on general endurance and muscle training, and I was definitely in the best shape of my life during senior year of college (before going to law school and realizing I had no time for nonsense like getting enough food or sleep :smallannoyed:).


My brother has done some Kung Fu and Tai Chi as well, and he found those to be the least practical, but also much more spiritual and he tells me that it contributed a lot to his overall well-being and happiness. He also does Tai Chi to work out still, which is much easier to do than the harder, more intense martial arts.

[Karen Lynn]

I am a fan of Aikido and Tai Chi, myself. For fun when I'm at home, however, I hit the indoor archery range(yes, I chose an apartment based on the fact it's immediately next door... shut up), and knife throwing. May sound strange, but I find those two relax me, where as Aikido and Tai Chi center me.

[Blue Bandit]

Honestly, the best tip I can give you is to find a Dojo for each art your interested in and see if the instructor will allow you to observe a few classes. Some instructors will allow this, others wont, so be forewarned. If that fails, its never a bad idea to join a dojo even for just a month or two to get a feel for the art to see if you like it. The various forms of martial arts very widely in their fighting style so its important to learn which style is right for you. For example, Judo plays a heavy emphasis on grabs, throws, and take-downs, where Taekwondo focuses on powerful kicks.

Another thing to take not of is whether or not the martial art is a hard-style or soft-style. A hard-style, like Taekwondo, involves a lot of external power and body conditioning, which could a plus if want to get in shape, or it could be a negative if your body is ill-suited to that type of work out. a soft-style art involves using internal power with heavy emphasis on manipulating pressure points, so body conditioning and muscle building isn't as necessary to be effective in your art.

Personally, I've been taking Chinese Kenpo, not to be confused with American kenpo AKA the Parker system, for the last 6 years. This art's primary focus is self-defense and is not intended for competition, though it can be modified for such. It's a soft style that incorporate the use of pressure points, Tai Chi, animal forms, and weapons. It also places a heavy focus on mental training, which I believe is an important aspect of any martial art.

One last thing to consider, if you decide to meet with an instructor, ask them how long it usually takes to achieve black belt. it can be very telling about how involved a martial art is. For instance, in Chinese Kenpo, the average time for achieving black belt is 8 years. So if an instuctor promises that you can be a black belt in just a year, or even in just three years, it usually means that there isn't much to learn and is thus, an inferior art.

Sorry for the long post, :smallsmile:

[TheFallenOne]

Most important thing is knowing what you want to get out of the training. If you're looking for self-defense, many things are straight out as the set of rules is too restrictive to prepare you for a real fight on the street. Elbow and knee attacks for example, and some arts don't cover ground combat and grappling, something you definitely want to be prepared for, as well as throws, holds, chokes and joint locks.

I started Jujutsu last semester with university sport, as I think the style suits me and my body type. But more important I think is having a good teacher; finding the right martial art taught by someone not that good at it isn't worth much. I'm quite lucky, as our teacher is five time German champion and one time world champion. And I'm not even paying for the training! :smallbiggrin:

[SiuiS]

Martial arts is one of those fun topics where everyone has a different set of criteria. There is a real trend towards lauding the aggressive, violent and combative over the nonviolent. Arts which can do more damage, faster, in more situations, are "better". It blurs the line, and there really needs to be a focus on whether you want to learn how to maim and kill people, and handle morality and ethics elsewhere, or if you want to learn martial arts for other reasons. The two are vastly different, but both fall under "martial arts", which really makes it hard to notice differences.

Kajukenbo was a nice all-around style, from which I benefitted by having both teachers willing to teach dangerous things, and an atmosphere that did't reward dangerous behaviour. As a standalone art, it's pretty good (if a misnomer, since it is a mixed martial art in it's own right). If I wanted to learn how to hurt people again, though, I'd go straight to kick boxing, an round it out with a gapply bit.

For conditioning, chin-na was amazing. I learned a lot about how my body worked and used that to correct small issues, and I learned a lot about relaxation and acrobatics - relaxation because it's better tha hard resistance, sometimes, and acrobatics because there were a couple twists I would rather jump, flip, an land on my head than suffer through. I polan on learning either aikido, capoeira, or maybe both in the near future, purely for fitness and a sense of wholeness.

Don't discount tae kwon do, Anarion, there is a lot that can be solved by a decisive kick to the face. And by leg muscles hardened enough to run.

Dakshaar, the length of time to a black belt could mean many things. A well conditioned practitioner could rise in the ranks pretty fast, since early levels are fitness, coordination and knowledge. All of these can be gained outside of a martial art, or transport from one ot the other. It could alsao be a sign of a bad school or teacher, rather than art. Too short, and the teacher may be promoting people faster to get his name out there. Too long, and the teacher could be milking you for fees without really teaching all that much. And a black belt is only the half-way point, not a goal in itself.

[Anarion]

Don't discount tae kwon do, Anarion, there is a lot that can be solved by a decisive kick to the face. And by leg muscles hardened enough to run.


I don't disagree with you. However, if you're selecting your martial art by which one would be most useful when being accosted by a mugger, I assure you that Taekwondo is on the low end. Also, if the name of the art ends in "do" (i.e. judo, taekwondo, kendo etc.) it generally means that the art had most of the lethal techniques removed and was refined into more of an exercise, training, and mentality type of art.



And a black belt is only the half-way one quarter point, not a goal in itself.

Fixed that for you.

[Brother Oni]

I noticed that there wasn't yet a topic about martial arts, combat sports and self-defence training here, and as I myself am interested and looking into getting into it right now I created this topic to see if there are out there who want to talk about this.

Maybe even give tips or tell me what their favourite one is so my choice in picking one of them becomes even harder. :smalltongue: Currently mainly looking into judo, karate, taekwondo and boxing.

There was a previous Martial Artists in the Playground thread, but it died.

As TheFallenOne said, what discipline you pick up is entirely what you want out of it. Do you want self defence, thinking about going into competition fighting, a way to keep fit or want to learn a traditional art?

After that, it depends on how much time you're willing to give to achieve your goal - if you just want to be as effective as quickly as possible, boxing or some other specialised 'self defence' class would be ideal.

TKD is good for competition and keeping fit, but of limited use for self defence.
Depending on which style of karate is available and the sensei, it can hit all four markers.
I haven't done enough judo to speak of its advantages/disadvantages, so leave that for more experienced people than me.

Another thing to bear in mind when choosing a style is whether it fits your body shape and temperment - someone very aggressive and heavily built wouldn't be well suited for Tai Chi for example.
I studied Shotokan karate for about a month before I gave it up - while the style of punching was extremely efficient, I couldn't wrap my head around leaving your arm fully extended for longer than a fraction of a second (I studied southern mantis beforehand and was taught never to do that).

Finally as others have said, the school/class environment itself can be a factor. Some hypermasculine, testosterone fuelled gym dedicated for amateur and professional competition could well be what you're looking for, while other people prefer a more relaxed 'keep fit' style of class.
The instructor is also a major factor - at my aikido class, there was one sensei I simply could not learn from, since he insisted on getting the technique right from the get-go and stopping to correct your form after every attempt, whereas I learn better by drilling through the entire technique repeatedly and correcting any errors as I go along.

Neither is right or wrong, it's just different ways of learning.

[Morph Bark]

Another thing to take not of is whether or not the martial art is a hard-style or soft-style. A hard-style, like Taekwondo, involves a lot of external power and body conditioning, which could a plus if want to get in shape, or it could be a negative if your body is ill-suited to that type of work out. a soft-style art involves using internal power with heavy emphasis on manipulating pressure points, so body conditioning and muscle building isn't as necessary to be effective in your art.

One last thing to consider, if you decide to meet with an instructor, ask them how long it usually takes to achieve black belt. it can be very telling about how involved a martial art is. For instance, in Chinese Kenpo, the average time for achieving black belt is 8 years. So if an instuctor promises that you can be a black belt in just a year, or even in just three years, it usually means that there isn't much to learn and is thus, an inferior art.

I thought hard styles were basically the striking ones, whereas soft styles were more like grappling, locking and such? And there is also the distinction (in Chinese martial arts) between "internal" and "external" arts, where the internal ones are basically focused around spirituality and breathing techniques and such, like Tai Chi.

On the latter, I agree with SiuiS. While an art that takes a long while to get your black belt in can mean it has a lot to teach you, it could also be because of a lot of other factors. Plus the fact that it is basically just the halfway point, after which you prettymuch got the basics down in most cases, which shouldn't be too hard for me, as I'm a pretty fast learner.


Sorry for the long post, :smallsmile:

No worries. Sometimes I like long posts. :smallwink:


Martial arts is one of those fun topics where everyone has a different set of criteria. There is a real trend towards lauding the aggressive, violent and combative over the nonviolent. Arts which can do more damage, faster, in more situations, are "better". It blurs the line, and there really needs to be a focus on whether you want to learn how to maim and kill people, and handle morality and ethics elsewhere, or if you want to learn martial arts for other reasons. The two are vastly different, but both fall under "martial arts", which really makes it hard to notice differences.

I've studied philosophy for a total of 6-7 years. I'm not looking for that, I assure you. :smalltongue:

I'd like a pretty all-round style, but without the lethal moves. I'm mainly in this for the exercise, self-defense second, with possibility of killing someone with it wayyy at the bottom.


There was a previous Martial Artists in the Playground thread, but it died.

As TheFallenOne said, what discipline you pick up is entirely what you want out of it. Do you want self defence, thinking about going into competition fighting, a way to keep fit or want to learn a traditional art?

A way to keep (or rather, get) fit primarily. Self-defense would be an extremely welcome bonus though. I haven't thought about competition fighting, but I have the time for that now anyway now that I'm out of a job and no longer got a study to dedicate myself to.

Traditionality I don't care about as much as the other parts, at least for now.

[Riverdance]

I would love to take up karate or some sort of sword-based martial art if I had the time. Sadly I do not right now, but for future reference, are there japanese, chinese, etc. sword based martial arts? What are they? What are they like? I'm particularly interested in Japanese forms. Thanks to anyone who cares to answer. :smallsmile:

[Kelb_Panthera]

If all you're looking for is getting in good shape, I'd strongly suggest a grappling-intensive style; freestyle wrestling, jiu-jitsu (either brazilian or traditional), judo (to a certain extent). Something like capoeira could work too; lots of movement and a bit of acrobatics.

Self-defense (you said was secondary) styles, hmm.... western boxing is good, and muay thai will put a hurt on somebody real quick. Both are basic in their movements but subtle in their mastery, and make extraordinary use of kinetic linking. You'll want to round out with at least some basic training in a grappling style too though. Muay thai only really covers the clinch and boxing has virtually no grappling techniques at all.

For taking people out. Any of the various styles of ninjutsu or kung-fu, as all of them were developed originally as weapons of war and haven't changed all that much in the interim, coming from such traditionally minded cultures. I favor a blending of a couple styles of ninjutsu myself, as they included teachings on how to read and manipulate an opponent before they even realize you're a threat. Not that you're particularly interested in taking people out.

The martial arts have always been one of my primary interests and I'm kinda violent-minded, though fortunately very even-tempered.

You might also consider some cross-training in parkour or freerunning, to help with cardio and getting familiar with how your body moves through space. Bonus points: it's hella-fun to pull moves that make your friends go ":smalleek: that was awesome!" without having to punch them in the head or throw them to the ground.

[Anarion]

I would love to take up karate or some sort of sword-based martial art if I had the time. Sadly I do not right now, but for future reference, are there japanese, chinese, etc. sword based martial arts? What are they? What are they like? I'm particularly interested in Japanese forms. Thanks to anyone who cares to answer. :smallsmile:

Kendo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kendo) is the most well-known sword style that is Japanese, although you don't actually use a sword, you use a wooden stick. Nevertheless, it's completely a sword style and you'll probably feel like a samurai while you're doing it, albeit one being knocked on his butt repeatedly until you get good.

Several variations in modern Wu Shu make use of traditional Chinese weapons. It's possible, depending on the studio and teacher you find, to specialize in a weapon, including one or two broadswords. This type of Wu Shu is mostly for show and exercise, not for cutting people with swords.

[inexorabletruth]

I've studied jujutsu, wing chun, boxing, and some traditional western weapons training: basic fencing, bow and arrow, throwing axe, spear fighting, and bayonet fencing.

My favorite weapon to train with was, by far, the quarterstaff. I studied the Bō when I was a boy, although most of my technique was flash and flair... meant more for katas and competition than for combat. My wife is trained in knife fighting and the horseman's morningstar. She's pretty awesome with them... I wouldn't pick a fight with her. :smallwink:

[SiuiS]

I would love to take up karate or some sort of sword-based martial art if I had the time. Sadly I do not right now, but for future reference, are there japanese, chinese, etc. sword based martial arts? What are they? What are they like? I'm particularly interested in Japanese forms. Thanks to anyone who cares to answer. :smallsmile:

There is my favorite, iaido (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61zICA1dA3I&feature=youtube_gdata_player), which is the samurai fast-draw thing. It has the benefit of being entirely non-combat based, without suffering for it.

EDIT: Shinai are made from bamboo, which I feel I should point out is a type of grass, not really a wood. But rattan is dried vine, so.
Man, that always gets me, when people call bokken "kendo sticks" and the like. I'm such a nerd.


I've studied jujutsu, wing chun, boxing, and some traditional western weapons training: basic fencing, bow and arrow, throwing axe, spear fighting, and bayonet fencing.

My favorite weapon to train with was, by far, the quarterstaff. I studied the Bō when I was a boy, although most of my technique was flash and flair... meant more for katas and competition than for combat. My wife is trained in knife fighting and the horseman's morningstar. She's pretty awesome with them... I wouldn't pick a fight with her. :smallwink:

Your wife terrifies me. Both knives and flails cando a lot of harm in very short time spans in even moderately skilled hands.

[Worira]

EDIT: Shinai are made from bamboo, which I feel I should point out is a type of grass, not really a wood. But rattan is dried vine, so.
Man, that always gets me, when people call bokken "kendo sticks" and the like. I'm such a nerd.

I'm not sure why you're bringing up bokken, since those are legitimately made of wood.

[Kiero]

Decent instructors/clubs will let you try a first class for free. Try them all out and see which one works best for you.

[SiuiS]

I'm not sure why you're bringing up bokken, since those are legitimately made of wood.

Because if you have the information to know they're cost, you know they are bokken/bokuto. It's a separate example of the same thing.

[Mutant Sheep]

I read title as "Marital Arts". I am foolishness. :smalltongue:

[Morph Bark]

You might also consider some cross-training in parkour or freerunning, to help with cardio and getting familiar with how your body moves through space. Bonus points: it's hella-fun to pull moves that make your friends go ":smalleek: that was awesome!" without having to punch them in the head or throw them to the ground.

Ha! That'd indeed be awesome. I'd first have to majorly increase my stamina and strength though. I've always been pretty low on stamina. Even during the years I played hockey I was worn out by the end nearly all the time. When I run with my brothers, who are very fast, I can easily keep up, but afterwards I'm so winded I nearly just about pass out.

That being said though, I'd be interested in doing it, but unless it's something you can do on your own without a club or a group, not likely for me to do as I doubt there are such ones around here. And I believe just running up and jumping onto random buildings would be frowned upon.

Also, is there an actual difference between parkour and free-running?

Anyway, thanks for the advice on some martial arts. I wasn't aware modern forms of ninjutsu were any sort of common though. Very curious.


Several variations in modern Wu Shu make use of traditional Chinese weapons. It's possible, depending on the studio and teacher you find, to specialize in a weapon, including one or two broadswords. This type of Wu Shu is mostly for show and exercise, not for cutting people with swords.

Ahuh. I always was under the impression Wu Shu was primarily an armed style?


I read title as "Marital Arts". I am foolishness. :smalltongue:

I wouldn't at all mind sparring with the missus after I'd be married. :smalltongue::smallwink:

[Story Time]

I noticed that there wasn't yet a topic about martial arts, combat sports and self-defence training here, and as I myself am interested and looking into getting into it right now I created this topic to see if there are out there who want to talk about this.

Maybe even give tips or tell me what their favourite one is so my choice in picking one of them becomes even harder. :smalltongue: Currently mainly looking into judo, karate, taekwondo and boxing.

Hello. :smallsmile:

Please decide for Self what you are searching for: Art, exercise, or combat training? The first two can be had very easily. Tae Kwan Do fits into both of these. Tai Chi does also.

Combat training, however, is a little more complex. Wrestling skill is a must because most combat falls to the ground very quickly. Tae Kwan Do is...not very good in this instance. The general truth is that your body is unique and will require a custom mix of arts to bring out its full potential. Studying different arts and philosophies for combat will help you make your own style.

I have heard reputable things about Jeet Kun Do. Hwa Rang Do. Chin Na. Mui Tai. Uechi Ryu Karate. Capoeira. But the best choice to make for combat training is to find a brawler. Find some-one who has been in many fist-fights. A former Military Police, perhaps, and speak with them.

There is a difference between an artist and a fighter. Once Morph Bark has made that choice, then may-be, we can be of better help.

Please have a nice day. :smallsmile:

[GnomeGninjas]

I've had good experiences with Ninjutsu (though unfortunately none of them involve creating glowing balls of chakra to throw at people). Its pretty small as martial arts go so there probably isn't a dojo in your area, but if there is you should check it out. For self defense it seems pretty effective. I haven't been in a fight so I don't know for certain but wikipedia says it pretty good for self defense and the techniques I seen seem like they could quickly end a fight. For exercise it seems okay though probably no better than any other martial art. Other than exercise and self defense benefits include: being able to legitamately claim that you are a ninja, rolling, spending 2 minutes explaining whenever someone asks "what martial art do you do?"and sword (and a few other weapons) training.
Drawbacks include: spending 2 minutes explaining whenever someone asks "what martial art do you do?" and Ninjutsu not having very many martial arts competitions. The lack of competitions might just be from my personal dojo, I don't know if it extends to the rest of Ninjutsu as well.

[Anarion]

Ahuh. I always was under the impression Wu Shu was primarily an armed style?


Wu Shu is an especially broad label and has been used to refer to a whole variety of Chinese martial arts. It includes several unarmed styles as well most traditional weapons.

Also, I have a friend who served a little while in the Israeli army, and he suggests that Krav Maga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga) is about as good as it gets as far as actually being able to severely harm someone that attacks you.

Edit in response to Brother Oni: I definitely don't recommend Krav Maga. It's about really hurting people and it's only good if self-defense at any cost is what you're going for.

[Liffguard]

Choosing a martial art massively depends on what your goals are since there are so many different activities that fall under the "martial arts" banner. Self-defense? Health and fitness? Sporting competition? History and culture. Decide what you want to achieve before setting out.

Secondly, be aware that martial arts, moreso than almost any topic in the world, are full of bulls**t. There are so many ridiculous claims and counter-claims bouncing around that are hard to dispel because the only proof is in actual fighting which is generally frowned on in polite society. That said:

Anyone who claims that you can learn to fight without regular high intensity contact sparring is lying.

Anyone who claims they are teaching a historically accurate method of fighting with a thousand year lineage is lying.

Anyone who claims that belt colours (or belts in general, especially black belts) are relevent in any but a handful of cases (like legit BJJ schools) is lying.

Anyone who claims they are "too dangerous" or "too deadly" to back up their claims is lying.

In general, shop around with a sceptical eye and a mind to your goals and you shouldn't go far wrong.

My personal experience is in BJJ, boxing and muay thai, all of which are great choices IMO. That said, for a good combo of fitness, effectiveness, culture and availability you can't really go wrong with Judo.


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[Brother Oni]

I thought hard styles were basically the striking ones, whereas soft styles were more like grappling, locking and such? And there is also the distinction (in Chinese martial arts) between "internal" and "external" arts, where the internal ones are basically focused around spirituality and breathing techniques and such, like Tai Chi.


Eargh. It's a correct interpretation, but it's only a partial interpretation.

With Chinese martial arts, all styles start either hard/external or soft/internal, but then as you progress through, they move round to the other side of the hard/soft divide.

For example, Mantis starts very hard and external, with lots of conditioning and muscle building work. As you become more advanced, more time is spent on the internal side, breathing techniques and the like, to supplement the earlier hard stuff (the 'steel jacket' technique being a good example.
Conversely Tai Chi starts very soft, but then progresses towards more physical actions (however in my experience, it's very rare that Tai Chi classes get that far and most remain stuck on the soft side).


With regard to your other hard/soft distinction, I feel it's a bit of an arbitrary one - I know a number of locking techniques from Mantis which would be about as far removed from 'soft' as you could get.



A way to keep (or rather, get) fit primarily. Self-defense would be an extremely welcome bonus though. I haven't thought about competition fighting, but I have the time for that now anyway now that I'm out of a job and no longer got a study to dedicate myself to.

Traditionality I don't care about as much as the other parts, at least for now.

I second most of Kelb_Panthera's suggestions, although for a fitness focus, I would suggest boxing and kick boxing. Standard cardio work like running would also be recommended, unfortunately (I personally hate running).

No offence intended to Anarion's friend, but I don't think Krav Maga is what you're looking for, since as he says, it's intended to put your enemy down as fast and quick as possible.

Story Time's comment of mixing and matching styles for your body shape and temperament is more relevant for competitive and street fighting, but no less true. I would suggest having a firm basis in one style before branching out though, especially if you have no martial arts experience beforehand.


I wouldn't at all mind sparring with the missus after I'd be married. :smalltongue::smallwink:

Speaking from personal (and painful) experience, if your missus is anything like mine, wear a groin guard if you do. :smallsigh:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ha! That'd indeed be awesome. I'd first have to majorly increase my stamina and strength though. I've always been pretty low on stamina. Even during the years I played hockey I was worn out by the end nearly all the time. When I run with my brothers, who are very fast, I can easily keep up, but afterwards I'm so winded I nearly just about pass out. Actually, a big part of why I suggested the running arts (I don't know if that's a real term, but I'm using it anyway) is that practicing them will improve your endurance in a way that's far more entertaining that just straight running. They also help immensely with developing the ability to quickly size up your surroundings for the purpose of moving through them in the most efficient and least painful way possible. As long as you don't try to push too far past your limits you can do something at almost any level of fitness, even if it's nothing but simple precision jumps.


That being said though, I'd be interested in doing it, but unless it's something you can do on your own without a club or a group, not likely for me to do as I doubt there are such ones around here. And I believe just running up and jumping onto random buildings would be frowned upon.
It's best to always have a spotter just in case, but otherwise parkour and freerunning are things you can teach yourself. I'm doing it with no shortage of success. Like all athletic endeavors just always remember that safety comes first and be aware of your limits. Also, technique is everything. How you move is much more important than how fast/strong the movements are.

Also, is there an actual difference between parkour and free-running? It's mostly a subtle difference. As I understand it, mind you I'm a bit of a novice, the difference is that parkour is more about moving through your environment at optimal efficiency and is a bit more philosophical, while freerunning is a bit more about the tricks and flair. I invite anyone more experienced to correct me if I'm mistaken about that.


Anyway, thanks for the advice on some martial arts. I wasn't aware modern forms of ninjutsu were any sort of common though. Very curious.

You're most welcome, and yes there are still some styles of ninjutsu taught here and there. It's a much less widespread group of styles though. You may have trouble finding an instructor.

Edit: If you do decide to take up the running arts, make sure you learn to fall properly first. A video clip just reminded me of the importance of that skill. Falling properly is the most essential skill in any athletic art where falling is largely unavoidable in the ultimate sense. Fortunately, it'll be one of the very first things you're taught in any grappling intensive martial art.

[SiuiS]

There is a difference between an artist and a fighter. Once Morph Bark has made that choice, then may-be, we can be of better help.

Please have a nice day. :smallsmile:[/SIZE]

I think this is a misunderstanding of how the words art and artist are used. An art is a skillset, really. A martial art is a skillset which can be applied to fighting. Tai chi is a martial art, even as exercise, because it's balance, proprioception and breathing can improve your fighting ability. First aid, field medicine and paramedic training are martial arts because they directly apply to a fight, either in how to fix what's done or how to do something hard to fix. A street fighter who has even a semi-codified understanding of what he is doing, even if the difference is as small as "jab, hook, cross, uppercut, elbow" is a martial artist. He has an art which is martial.

As far as avoiding frippery because it's all flash and no substance, however, I agree. Unless flash is what you want, of course.


Wu Shu is an especially broad label and has been used to refer to a whole variety of Chinese martial arts. It includes several unarmed styles as well most traditional weapons.

Wushu is about as indicative as martial art is. Wushu is often sold as being the Chinese cultural version of professional competitive cheer leading, but some wushu people are sad about it.


Also, I have a friend who served a little while in the Israeli army, and he suggests that Krav Maga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga) is about as good as it gets as far as actually being able to severely harm someone that attacks you.

Edit in response to Brother Oni: I definitely don't recommend Krav Maga. It's about really hurting people and it's only good if self-defense at any cost is what you're going for.

I suggest avoiding krav maga. Or anything, any dojo or dojang or whatnot, where they work on your killer instincts. Those are hard to get rid of. I'll have to get thanqol in here, his classes are pretty sweet.



Anyone who claims that you can learn to fight without regular high intensity contact sparring is lying.

I disagree. It's entirely possible to instruct the framework without sparring. You jut won't be able to compensate well for subtle changes. This requires thinking about hurting people far more than I feel is healthy though.



Anyone who claims that belt colours (or belts in general, especially black belts) are relevent in any but a handful of cases (like legit BJJ schools) is lying.

I don't think most traditional schools even use belt colors, actually. It may be an entirely American invention.


Anyone who claims they are "too dangerous" or "too deadly" to back up their claims is lying.

I disagree here as well. Developing lethal force is easy. Developing intros of it is harder. Refusing to hit someone is often the height of self-control. Using this as a badge to earn points is tacky, but at that point you should already see signs the person is a snake oil salesman.



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There is a giantitp app?! Is it android only? That would possibly solve a bunchload of my issues! Tell me more!

[Kelb_Panthera]

@SiuiS: while you're technically correct about what a martial art is, the generally accepted colloquial meaning is a codified, or semi-codifed, fighting system.

Under that definition it is indeed possible to make a distinction between an artist and a fighter. The distinction lies in emphasis on either practical application of technique, or mastery of form. I lean very heavily toward the former and would probably be more correctly defined as a fighter than an artist. I'm definitely a martial artist though. :smallbiggrin:

@Story Time: Morph Bark has stated that he wants to be an athlete. I suspect that leans a bit more toward artist than fighter, though he's indicated at least some interest in practical application of technique as well.

In general, the distinction between artist and fighter is more of a spectrum than an either/or kind of thing.

[SiuiS]

I contend it is a colloquialism that doesn't deserve promulgation. I would rather it go away, as it's a very small distinction that only serves to create a false dichotomy. People hear Art versus Fight and they assume that one is superior to the other. Fight is better, and it's more worthwhile in your life to learn how to maim and murder people than it is to be a good person and have the skills to defuse a situation. Schools of good martial artists go out of business while scam artists who hit too hard on the dojo floor "to make it gritty" make a killing by selling themselves as authentic murder dealers.

All in all, it's an undertaking that can only be detrimental. Whether you're a martial artist or a fighter doesn't come down to how you fight, it's apple and oranges. Both a brawler and a martial artist will be willing to collapse trachea, puncture eyes, dislocate knees, rupture testicles and in general be willing to do what need be done to survive a back alley ambush. The martial artist however, would be aware that a back alley is a dumb place to walk alone at night in an unfamiliar neighborhood, and take the street instead. Who really wins?

Martial arts are about more than just the fight itself. It's a meta level thing. Beig aware of when and how a fight can start. That's not separate from a fighter at all. It's synergising other skills into fighting. Hell, kajukenbo was founded by guys who would start bar fights and street brawls. They just took notes on what happened, what worked and what didn't afterwards.

[inexorabletruth]

There is my favorite, iaido (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61zICA1dA3I&feature=youtube_gdata_player), which is the samurai fast-draw thing. It has the benefit of being entirely non-combat based, without suffering for it.

EDIT: Shinai are made from bamboo, which I feel I should point out is a type of grass, not really a wood. But rattan is dried vine, so.
Man, that always gets me, when people call bokken "kendo sticks" and the like. I'm such a nerd.



Your wife terrifies me. Both knives and flails cando a lot of harm in very short time spans in even moderately skilled hands.

Oddly, a horseman's morningstar isn't a flail. It's a single metal rod with a morningstar mallet on the end, tipped with a spike. They're extremely dangerous in the right hands, but not as hard to wield as a flail. As a summer job, she used to twirl maces at renaissance festivals. It was very cool. I wish I could find that action shot of her catching her mace after hurling it almost 15 feet in the air. It was a little gut wrenching, but she aced it like a champ.

[Morph Bark]

Eargh. It's a correct interpretation, but it's only a partial interpretation.

Sorry. And thank you for the correction. :smallredface:


Speaking from personal (and painful) experience, if your missus is anything like mine, wear a groin guard if you do. :smallsigh:

Well I ain't married and I'm just getting into a new relationship, but yes. Yes I will. I'll be getting one anyway since I occassionally LARP and in our group there's a 12-year-old girl who's a really good shooter, but most of her shots end up roughly at the height of my crotch. The only times she's actually hit me though was one in the face and once in the knee.


It's best to always have a spotter just in case, but otherwise parkour and freerunning are things you can teach yourself. I'm doing it with no shortage of success. Like all athletic endeavors just always remember that safety comes first and be aware of your limits. Also, technique is everything. How you move is much more important than how fast/strong the movements are.

I've looked into parkour in my country and found only one dedicated group to it in Amsterdam, which is sadly a good hundred miles away. Instead though, I can still just practice running and climbing and other things that make up parkour. I read in the wiki article that swimming is also one of the eight or ten parts or so? Might be that I'm mistaken about that and that is moreso part of its predecessors, but I already got all the basic swimming diplomas down. The only way to continue with that would be diving with equipment or rescue swimming.


Edit: If you do decide to take up the running arts, make sure you learn to fall properly first. A video clip just reminded me of the importance of that skill. Falling properly is the most essential skill in any athletic art where falling is largely unavoidable in the ultimate sense. Fortunately, it'll be one of the very first things you're taught in any grappling intensive martial art.

Gotcha! That makes judo a very good suggestion in combo with parkour. They might teach proper falling in karate too though, but I'd have to ask my sister. Does anyone know if proper falling techniques are taught in any non-grappling martial arts?


Both a brawler and a martial artist will be willing to collapse trachea, puncture eyes, dislocate knees, rupture testicles and in general be willing to do what need be done to survive a back alley ambush. The martial artist however, would be aware that a back alley is a dumb place to walk alone at night in an unfamiliar neighborhood, and take the street instead. Who really wins?

Indeed. Only when necessary would I take a back alley. Though considering I live in a pretty small town (at least compared to cities or American towns) I don't need to worry about that. Thankfully too, since this is the first time I've actually gotten afraid for my testicles. Thanks. :smalleek:

[Spiryt]

Also, I have a friend who served a little while in the Israeli army, and he suggests that Krav Maga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga) is about as good as it gets as far as actually being able to severely harm someone that attacks you.

Edit in response to Brother Oni: I definitely don't recommend Krav Maga. It's about really hurting people and it's only good if self-defense at any cost is what you're going for.

Being able to severely harm someone is about mental state, aggressiveness, and generally not getting frozen by hormones and stuff, then about being able to overwhelm opponent physically.

There's not much more that Krav Maga can do in this regard compared to solid full-contact sparring, and for the whole hype it has, there are just as much bulllshido Krav Maga classes as of the all other stuff.



I disagree. It's entirely possible to instruct the framework without sparring.

What exactly would be 'framework" useful for in actual fight? :smallconfused:

His point is entirely valid, no matter what is one training, doing forms in air, or in some set exercises doesn't prepare for practical use of it.

That's why "knife defenses" on karate demonstration etc. being shown here and there are completely laughable, for simple example.

[SiuiS]

Oddly, a horseman's morningstar isn't a flail. It's a single metal rod with a morningstar mallet on the end, tipped with a spike. They're extremely dangerous in the right hands, but not as hard to wield as a flail. As a summer job, she used to twirl maces at renaissance festivals. It was very cool. I wish I could find that action shot of her catching her mace after hurling it almost 15 feet in the air. It was a little gut wrenching, but she aced it like a champ.

I... Should have known that. Honestly, I was thinking about a spiked metal ball, rather than any chain versus bar.

And I've seen the mace hurling! I can't do it. I freak out about the notion of the harder I throw it, the harder it comes down. No thanks.



I've looked into parkour in my country and found only one dedicated group to it in Amsterdam, which is sadly a good hundred miles away. Instead though, I can still just practice running and climbing and other things that make up parkour. I read in the wiki article that swimming is also one of the eight or ten parts or so? Might be that I'm mistaken about that and that is moreso part of its predecessors, but I already got all the basic swimming diplomas down. The only way to continue with that would be diving with equipment or rescue swimming.


Swimming is one of those things that I can do, but I probably couldn't stop save my life in freezing water against a current wearing full clothes. So it makes sense for swimming to be practiced a little more aggressively.
Perhaps you could find a playground and just monkey through it? I used to do that.


Gotcha! That makes judo a very good suggestion in combo with parkour. They might teach proper falling in karate too though, but I'd have to ask my sister. Does anyone know if proper falling techniques are taught in any non-grappling martial arts?

Aikido does falling. Wrestling as well, and some stunt-acting. Some karate forms, some of the animal-based Chinese forms maybe... It's pretty hit or miss with the American style stuff, the generic-do which I the same from one school to another, that strip mall karate stuff. Some teach good basics, others don't. Depends on the teacher.



Indeed. Only when necessary would I take a back alley. Though considering I live in a pretty small town (at least compared to cities or American towns) I don't need to worry about that. Thankfully too, since this is the first time I've actually gotten afraid for my testicles. Thanks. :smalleek:

It's a wonder people consider testcles a sign of strength. It's like having a video game style weak point.


Being able to severely harm someone is about mental state, aggressiveness, and generally not getting frozen by hormones and stuff, then about being able to overwhelm opponent physically.

There's not much more that Krav Maga can do in this regard compared to solid full-contact sparring, and for the whole hype it has, there are just as much bulllshido Krav Maga classes as of the all other stuff.

You are missing a key component of mechanical efficiency. Krav maga boasts a move set which is supposed to be economical in situations where other move sets of other arts (including street fighting) are not economical. Not all variables are equal, though. I can't say that economy of motion is worth more or less than willingness to maim, or any amount of technique and aggression can Veronese weight advantage and aggression, for example. I would hazard to say that aggression is probably the most important variable though.



What exactly would be 'framework" useful for in actual fight? :smallconfused:
[...]
That's why "knife defenses" on karate demonstration etc. being shown here and there are completely laughable, for simple example.

personal experience says you're wrong.
What framework? Understanding escalation of force, leverage points, patterns created by the musculature and footwork which will lead the inexperienced into making the same swing over an over again. Soaking pain and fear under a cold, homicidal fury, cultivating the pride and arrogance that would have you superglue a man's broken fingers into the wrong position to main him, an understanding of how pain affects your physiology an the willingness to roll with it, and muscle memory in shoe bursts so you aren't stuck doing a fifteen-move combo.

Basically, what you said. Aggression. But also awareness, ovarian fortitude and not realizing how bad one can actually get hurt.


His point is entirely valid, no matter what is one training, doing forms in air, or in some set exercises doesn't prepare for practical use of it.


Mere motions, yes. If you are doing it right, then it's also a mental and spiritual exercise. Your body will flail in the air. Your body, guided by your mid and with firm spirit, will be better off than not having trained, and can be as good as if you had sparred. You won't have the same pain tolerance, but that's resistif intake, not output.

[Morph Bark]

If a man can't protect his own balls, he shouldn't be trying to protect other people. :smalltongue:

On the subject of Krav Maga: yeah, I'm definitely not going for that. Maybe sometime in the far, far future years from now, but right now most definitely not. What I've heard of it it sounds amazingly effective, but also essentially like a kind of "kill fu".

[Spiryt]

You are missing a key component of mechanical efficiency. Krav maga boasts a move set which is supposed to be economical in situations where other move sets of other arts (including street fighting) are not economical. Not all variables are equal, though. I can't say that economy of motion is worth more or less than willingness to maim, or any amount of technique and aggression can Veronese weight advantage and aggression, for example. I would hazard to say that aggression is probably the most important variable though.


Any seriously practiced martial art/whatever will be about mechanical efficiency in situations it's supposed to cover.

If it's not, it's about low level of exercise/trainer/teaching etc., or about generally some fundamental technical silliness of whatever is taught in question.

Following any move sets is anyway terrible idea in any case, and effective 'self-defense' would be indeed about though-less, automatic ability to choose most economical moves in any given situation.

So while Krav Maga can boast about being 'most economical' and what not, it will anyway always depend on particular class/teacher/practitioner.



Mere motions, yes. If you are doing it right, then it's also a mental and spiritual exercise. Your body will flail in the air. Your body, guided by your mid and with firm spirit, will be better off than not having trained, and can be as good as if you had sparred. You won't have the same pain tolerance, but that's resistif intake, not output.

Body and what not can absolutely be 'as good' and whatever.

The whole point of sparring though - being able to do something against actual human being that's unpredictable, resisting, often chaotic, and that presents actual, breathing, intimidating, look in the eyes and what not challenge - is almost impossible to replicate with anything else.

Air or heavy bag/small banana tree can't cover that.

[SiuiS]

Any seriously practiced martial art/whatever will be about mechanical efficiency in situations it's supposed to cover.

If it's not, it's about low level of exercise/trainer/teaching etc., or about generally some fundamental technical silliness of whatever is taught in question.

Following any move sets is anyway terrible idea in any case, and effective 'self-defense' would be indeed about though-less, automatic ability to choose most economical moves in any given situation.

So while Krav Maga can boast about being 'most economical' and what not, it will anyway always depend on particular class/teacher/practitioner.

Any seriously practiced martial art will focus on efficiency.
Krav Maga has a reputation for having a better efficient method:bullpoop ratio.
If Art A teaches you the best choices under five different suresses, and Art B teaches you those and an additional three duresses, then art B would be able to claim broader application.



Body and what not can absolutely be 'as good' and whatever.

Going through physical motions without context absolutely can be as good as goin through physical motions with mindfulness as to context and use? No.
That's needlessly antagonistic. I meant it as a restructuring o my point, not an accusation. Sorry.



The whole point of sparring though - being able to do something against actual human being that's unpredictable, resisting, often chaotic, and that presents actual, breathing, intimidating, look in the eyes and what not challenge - is almost impossible to replicate with anything else.

Air or heavy bag/small banana tree can't cover that.

You are changing goal posts here. It was never about replicating having someone being unpredictable and intimidating, it was about whether it could yeah you anything. You said, for example, karate knife disarming techniques are bull, and implied you could not learn to counter a knife through kata alone. I know this is untrue. I also said that sparring was good, and it woul help. My point was that cerebral training is not a waste of time. My point is that there is a difference between training, and doing moves in the air.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I contend it is a colloquialism that doesn't deserve promulgation. I would rather it go away, as it's a very small distinction that only serves to create a false dichotomy. People hear Art versus Fight and they assume that one is superior to the other. Fight is better, and it's more worthwhile in your life to learn how to maim and murder people than it is to be a good person and have the skills to defuse a situation. Schools of good martial artists go out of business while scam artists who hit too hard on the dojo floor "to make it gritty" make a killing by selling themselves as authentic murder dealers.

All in all, it's an undertaking that can only be detrimental. Whether you're a martial artist or a fighter doesn't come down to how you fight, it's apple and oranges. Both a brawler and a martial artist will be willing to collapse trachea, puncture eyes, dislocate knees, rupture testicles and in general be willing to do what need be done to survive a back alley ambush. The martial artist however, would be aware that a back alley is a dumb place to walk alone at night in an unfamiliar neighborhood, and take the street instead. Who really wins?

Martial arts are about more than just the fight itself. It's a meta level thing. Beig aware of when and how a fight can start. That's not separate from a fighter at all. It's synergising other skills into fighting. Hell, kajukenbo was founded by guys who would start bar fights and street brawls. They just took notes on what happened, what worked and what didn't afterwards.

Of course being aware of when to fight and how to avoid it is much more important than any set of techniques. That doesn't change the fact that there are more than a few people that take up the martial arts primarily, if not exclusively, for the excersize and mental discipline with little to no thought for learning to harm others, even if they choose to enter competition. Those are the people I'm talking about when I say artist.

Make no mistake, there is an artistic component to many martial arts. Take capoeira for instance. Due to the circumstances of its creation it was designed to look like dancing rather than fighting. If you study it for several years and never strike a blow against another human being, there will still be a grace and beauty in the movements of the practitioner. It is nonetheless an effective means of delivering oblique strikes to an opponent unfamiliar with it, even if he's a decently skilled fighter. To discount the art in the martial arts is to ignore more than a century of development in some cases.

Neither art nor fight is strictly superior to the other. Both have their place in society and in an individual person's life. How big a place is dependent entirely on the person or society in question. Hell, even the most brutal of styles still has a certain elegance and beauty in its efficiency.

Then of course there're the styles that emphasize disabling or disuading an enemy while doing minimal harm to him. Do you consider these styles worthless? They've certainly got a certain humanitarian element to them.

Besides, no martial art is complete. You can't learn to be a well-rounded and utterly efficient fighter without cross-training, period.

You are certainly right about kata having their use. Perfection of form leads to higher precision and higher precision leads to greater effect in both placement and power of attacks. It's also more aesthetically pleasing and practicing kata helps to build both discipline and endurance. That said, spiryt does have a point about there being absolutely no substitute for, at least partial contact, sparring. Only experience can teach good timing and how to properly read an opponent. Its far better to gain that experience in a relatively safe environment while sparring than to earn it the hard way.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If a man can't protect his own balls, he shouldn't be trying to protect other people. :smalltongue:

On the subject of Krav Maga: yeah, I'm definitely not going for that. Maybe sometime in the far, far future years from now, but right now most definitely not. What I've heard of it it sounds amazingly effective, but also essentially like a kind of "kill fu".

I agree with your statement, and I think you're probably making the right decision regarding krav-maga. It doesn't really emphasize the aspect of the martial arts you appear to be looking for.

That said, make no mistake. All martial arts arose from the need to destroy your enemies, no matter how diluted that original purpose has become. A properly executed strike from virtually any style placed properly can kill. Even something as simple as boxing's jab can crush a man's wind-pipe. A cross can break bones. Muay thai's roundhouse kick is the equivalent of hitting someone with a baseball bat.

If you study the martial arts, you will become more capable of killing someone than you already are. Even aikido's throws can be intentionally adjusted to make an opponent land in an extremely injurious fashion, and it's one of those minimal harm arts I was talking about in my last post.

Most law enforcement agencies take note of this basic fact, and you can expect stiffer charges if you get caught up in a street fight after you've achieved some rank in any style.

I'm not saying this to turn you off to the idea, mind. It's just something anyone considering the martial arts should be aware of.

RE: proper falling technique

You'll definitely get it from any grappling style practically from the first day. Some striking styles that either have techniques that involve intentionally falling (these are fairly rare) or have numerous sweeps and trips will also include break-falls. The important thing is to distribute the impact across as much of your body as you can, excepting your head and neck of course. You should try and learn proper break-falls regardless of whether you even decide to follow through on learning a martial art. They can go a long way toward minimizing injury in a number of situations.

[Spiryt]

That's needlessly antagonistic. I meant it as a restructuring o my point, not an accusation. Sorry.

That's not antagonistic? :smallconfused:

Sparring is definitely not really necessary for building what we would call 'base' athletic/conditioning function, I was agreeing with you.



You are changing goal posts here. It was never about replicating having someone being unpredictable and intimidating, it was about whether it could yeah you anything. You said, for example, karate knife disarming techniques are bull, and implied you could not learn to counter a knife through kata alone. I know this is untrue. I also said that sparring was good, and it woul help. My point was that cerebral training is not a waste of time. My point is that there is a difference between training, and doing moves in the air.

Well, I'm not. I never said 'cerebral' was waste of time either.

Original point was that one can learn to 'fight' (whatever would that mean) without hard, full contact sparring.

And that would be really extremely hard, there will be, certainly, singular people that have it in their "blood', so they don't need to actually learn to go hard and endure it mentally, but they will be in minority.

And you absolutely cannot learn to counter knives trough kata and whatever alone.

All this stuff is pretty dangerous myth, actually, if someone actually believe he can do it.

Defending against knife unarmed is extremely hard no matter who you are, and if definitely would take a lot of training - 99% of karate and other kata and demonstrations out there are horribly disconnected from reality - with one guy attacking with 'knife' in a way that the defender is expecting, drilled against etc. He performs so nifty trip and everyone is happy...

Actual experiments with knife substitutes leaving color on clothing, with wielder being just aggressive and willing to stab/hack at will end with 'blood' all over...



Even something as simple as boxing's jab can crush a man's wind-pipe.

Well, for that matter, jab actually tends to be hardest thing to sufficiently master for 'average Joe'. :smallwink:

[Anarion]

I was taught how to fall during Taekwondo. I think every style teaches that skill because there's no style that doesn't involve getting knocked down at some point. Kind of comes with the whole fighting thing.



Most law enforcement agencies take note of this basic fact, and you can expect stiffer charges if you get caught up in a street fight after you've achieved some rank in any style.


Did you know that if you're a professional boxer, you can get charged for assault with a lethal weapon if you attack someone bare-handed? I thought that was pretty interesting when I learned it in criminal law.

[SiuiS]

Make no mistake, there is an artistic component to many martial arts. Take capoeira for instance. ... To discount the art in the martial arts is to ignore more than a century of development in some cases.

There is beauty in it, but that beauty is not the point, was not intended. I am just pointing out that 'art' in martial art is not the same word as 'art' when referring to painting, sculpting, drawing, or even singing. U suppose dancing comes close though.



Then of course there're the styles that emphasize disabling or disuading an enemy while doing minimal harm to him. Do you consider these styles worthless? They've certainly got a certain humanitarian element to them.

Not at all. Nor do I see where I even implied that. point it out, s'il vous plaît? It may be a problem with my manner of speech.


I agree with your statement, and I think you're probably making the right decision regarding krav-maga. It doesn't really emphasize the aspect of the martial arts you appear to be looking for.

That said, make no mistake. All martial arts arose from the need to destroy your enemies, no matter how diluted that original purpose has become.

Depending on how you mean roots; there are dozens of martial arts which do not have their roots in combat. There are many schools which formed by purposefully distancing themselves from existing combat forms, and developing solely for exercise an spiritual wellness.


Most law enforcement agencies take note of this basic fact, and you can expect stiffer charges if you get caught up in a street fight after you've achieved some rank in any style.

I believe this is a fallacy; no officer or judge I've yet asked in three states has any knowledge of this, and I've had police seminars where they stated this was untrue. It's the technique, not the level of training.


That's not antagonistic? :smallconfused:

Sparring is definitely not really necessary for building what we would call 'base' athletic/conditioning function, I was agreeing with you.

Okay. Then I'm just having trouble reading tonight and it's affecting my presentation. Sorry.



Well, I'm not. I never said 'cerebral' was waste of time either.

Original point was that one can learn to 'fight' (whatever would that mean) without hard, full contact sparring.

And that would be really extremely hard, there will be, certainly, singular people that have it in their "blood', so they don't need to actually learn to go hard and endure it mentally, but they will be in minority.

This sounds like a reverse No True Scotsman. Having proof that it can be done if you focus is discounted because most people don't have that focus... But focus is an act of will, something most have but are too lazy for.


And you absolutely cannot learn to counter knives trough kata and whatever alone.

*shrug* this is untrue. It's not 100% foolproof. Being attacked with a weapon is dangerous. I'm not saying do it. But it can be done.
Bah! I am being pedantic. Never mind.


All this stuff is pretty dangerous myth, actually, if someone actually believe he can do it.

Oddly, I agree with this though.



Well, for that matter, jab actually tends to be hardest thing to sufficiently master for 'average Joe'. :smallwink:

Yes. A hard right cross seems to be hard-wired into the brain, and basic aggression makes sloppy, haymaker style punches feel good to throw. It's a satisfying act of physicality! Pity that it's a terrible attack form.

[Brother Oni]

With regard to breakfalls, in my opinion Aikido-style ukemi is better for parkour/free running, since you're taught to end up on your feet (ready to carry on running) thus it looks more fluid and impressive, compared to judo-style ukemi which appears to be mostly stopping injury from landing (judo enthusiasts, please correct me if I'm wrong).


With the whole kata/sparring debate going on, I feel both sides have merit. It's perfectly possible (although harder) to go through the entire framework without a partner, but the advantages of sparring shouldn't be under-estimated, not least in teaching the concept of mei-ai (reach/distance in combat), which is so personalised, each person has to learn it for themselves.

My old sifu had a saying of 'there is no good one kung fu guy', which emphasises the importance of partner work, particularly in Chinese martial arts (quite a few forms and drills have an attacker/defender component).

Aikido also emphasises the importance of a good uke (receiver) for the nage (performer). An uke who attacks without the intention to actually make contact is almost as bad as an obstinate one who deliberate makes all the techniques difficult.

[Frozen_Feet]

I've been doing Okinawan Goju-Ryu Karate for for years, and Jinbukan Kobudo for year and a half. I've also had basic firearms training in Finnish Defense Forces, and taken a course in basic Krav-Maga.


I read title as "Marital Arts". I am foolishness. :smalltongue:

No, you merely understood something deep about marriage. :smalltongue:



Edit in response to Brother Oni: I definitely don't recommend Krav Maga. It's about really hurting people and it's only good if self-defense at any cost is what you're going for.

Not true. There are civilian schools of the art that focus on self-defence, including explaining what you can and can't get away with legally.

Anyways, I've done something thinking on the subject, and I've come to the conclusion that there are three dimension to Martial Arts - fitness, lifestyle and combat. It's an expansion on the Japanese dichtomy of "Jutsu" and "Do".

Martial arts as fitness is about how the art helps you shape your body - how they teach you balance and body control and how it can be used to improve your physique and health.

Martial arts as combat is about effectiveness of techniques in a violent situation, whether that be war or self-defence - how they teach you to harm and flee from your opponent while lessening risk to yourself.

Martial arts as a lifestyle is about the philosophical outlook - how they teach you to approach life, training, dangerous situations and other people.

All martial arts hold these elements, though they weigh them differently. Most sport styles place little emphasis on combat in favor of fitness and lifestyle. Military and police arts place most emphasis on combat and not so much on lifestyle. But like my remark about civilian Krav-maga schools should hint you, most martial arts can be used perfectly well for any of the three - it's about how and why you train more than about exact techniques or reputation of an art.

Related to this, I had an epiphany while training Krav-maga: most of the basics were exactly the same as in karate. Most of the actual self-defence tricks were the same as in karate. People go on and on about supposed effetiveness of Krav-maga over other arts, but the actual technical superiority is limited to fairly restricted area - which only has application in military situations, not civilian life.

Why? Because civilians, as a rule, rarely carry firearms. They rarely wear bullet-proof vests or helmets. I see and hear people looking at fancy techniques in traditional arts, like karate and kobudo, and saying "oh, that technique will never work in real life". What they often don't realize is that those fancy techniques were not, and are not, made for civilian self-defense - they are made to defend against enemies who are armed and armored and trained in martial arts too, which means most of the simple self-defence tricks won't work. Those perceived needless moves and "useless stuff" exist to maneuver around obstacles that are not generally seen in modern civilian conflicts.

And they exist in krav-maga as well. If my krav-maga training was more useful for self-defense than karate, it was not because the techniques were notably different, because they weren't; it was because we trained them in situations more closely mimicking modern civilian self-defense situations, and because our instructor told us in-depth about Finnish law regarding seld-defense situations.

But both can be done, and we do them, in context of traditional arts too. I've had several of my karate and kobudo instructors reiterate points made by my krav-maga instructor almost word for word, and we occasionally use lessons solely for mimicking self-defense situations. We just have proportionately less of these things, because our clubs have kids and people mostly interested in staying fit, instead of those who routinely get to violent conflicts.

As a tangent, about belt colors: they have been invented separately for many arts, and the most common one originated from Japanese Judo, and was adopted by karate from them. Belt colors are a tool for a teacher to tell what people can and can't do within an art - they usually aren't comparable between arts, or even different traditions of the same art. For example, my Kobudo club uses a ten Kyu system, meaning ten colored belts before 1st Dan black belt. For contrast my karate club uses six Kyu system. I have green belt exams ahead for both arts, but for Kobudo, it's 6th Kyu, while for Karate it's 3rd Kyu - in practice, this means the karate exam will contain about thrice as much and be that much harder than the kobudo one. Infact, I'm confident I could pss 5th Kyu in kobudo already, but am nervous about karate because I failed 3rd Kyu once already last spring...

[Brother Oni]

As a tangent, about belt colors: they have been invented separately for many arts, and the most common one originated from Japanese Judo, and was adopted by karate from them. Belt colors are a tool for a teacher to tell what people can and can't do within an art - they usually aren't comparable between arts, or even different traditions of the same art.

Quite true. Traditionally, Chinese schools don't have a belt system because the school sizes are generally small enough for the sifu to know individually where each of his pupils are skill wise.

With more pupils, it becomes harder for one person to keep track, thus the introduction of a syllabus and a belt grading system for schools with larger numbers and geographically spread out locations.

[Morph Bark]

Hmmm, from the last couple of post I started thinking I might look into aikido, if it's practiced around here. I never really thought about it, because it didn't seem like my thing. Prolly because it's either heavily advocated as a women's only sport in the Japanese media I've gotten into contact with, or for use in cheesy action movies by Steven Seagull.

[Brother Oni]

Hmmm, from the last couple of post I started thinking I might look into aikido, if it's practiced around here. I never really thought about it, because it didn't seem like my thing. Prolly because it's either heavily advocated as a women's only sport in the Japanese media I've gotten into contact with, or for use in cheesy action movies by Steven Seagull.

While Stephen Segal's movies are relatively subpar, the man's skill shouldn't be doubted: 1993 demonstration (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtthnZ1s9O8).

I suspect that the media you've seen is somewhat biased as what I've seen is approximately equal in gender.
I've found a demonstration of basic techniques (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0afWMLpO5oE&feature=related) and also incidentally shows what I mean about aikido breakfalls being more suitable for freerunning/parkour.

If you still feel that aikido is a 'woman's sport', then may I suggest jujutsu, which is generally regarded as aikido's brutish older cousin.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hmmm, from the last couple of post I started thinking I might look into aikido, if it's practiced around here. I never really thought about it, because it didn't seem like my thing. Prolly because it's either heavily advocated as a women's only sport in the Japanese media I've gotten into contact with, or for use in cheesy action movies by Steven Seagull.

Bah! Unless it calls for you to use your breasts as a weapon there's no such thing as a women's martial art. The difference in the frame of a random man and woman is only marginally more different than the difference in the frame between any two random people of the same gender and the difference in upper body/lower body strength is a trend in overall population that's meaningless on the individual level.

Aikido is a decent soft style. It was one of the first I seriously looked into. There's not much in the way of striking though, it's a predominantly grappling style. Though this is a case where I'm using the term grappling pretty loosely, since it largely avoids the clinch. It's a very fluid and dynamic style.


Steven Seagull Ha!

[Kelb_Panthera]

There is beauty in it, but that beauty is not the point, was not intended. I am just pointing out that 'art' in martial art is not the same word as 'art' when referring to painting, sculpting, drawing, or even singing. U suppose dancing comes close though.

Not for people like you and me it isn't, but for some people it very much is. Art is one of those funny words that means different things to different people, but in the sense of things that are simultaneously aesthetically pleasing and intended to say something about the artist/humanity, the martial arts can, in fact, be counted.


Not at all. Nor do I see where I even implied that. point it out, s'il vous plaît? It may be a problem with my manner of speech.

I can't point out a specific quote, it's just a vibe I was getting based on the apparent level of aggression you seem to be emphasizing. As of this post I see that you clearly didn't mean to make such an implication, but it can be read in your previous posts nonetheless.


Depending on how you mean roots; there are dozens of martial arts which do not have their roots in combat. There are many schools which formed by purposefully distancing themselves from existing combat forms, and developing solely for exercise an spiritual wellness. I'm guessing you're talking about things like Tai Chi? The thing is, while there are modern and semi-modern forms of these arts that have completely dropped the combat aspect, they're still the result of centuries of conflict that came before. Aikido might be one too? It was the style I had in mind when I brought up the ones that emphasize minimal harm.




I believe this is a fallacy; no officer or judge I've yet asked in three states has any knowledge of this, and I've had police seminars where they stated this was untrue. It's the technique, not the level of training. It's a trend rather than a concious action on the part of individuals. Martial artists are seen in a different light, psychologically speaking, than untrained fighters. This leads to law-enforcement treating them in a stricter manner because they're "more dangerous" or "should've known better." Though as Anarion pointed out, there are some actuall instances of the law itself recognizing martial artists as more dangerous than laypersons.




Oddly, I agree with this though.As do I. It's unfortunate that the tendency that so many fighters have to boast have led to tall tales and stretchings of the truth to the point where many older martial arts are seen as damn near magical. Can't be helped I guess.




Yes. A hard right cross seems to be hard-wired into the brain, and basic aggression makes sloppy, haymaker style punches feel good to throw. It's a satisfying act of physicality! Pity that it's a terrible attack form.

See now, here I disagree. Both a jab and a cross are simple enough to learn, but both take a fair amount of practice to master. How many laypeople have you seen put their legs and hips into a cross properly? All the ones I've seen generally put way, way too much emphasis on their arm and shoulder. They lose a lot of power that way.

The haymaker isn't entirely worthless. It makes great bait for getting a trained opponent to react in a particular way. It's pretty terrible as an actual attempt at hurting someone though. :smalltongue:

[Oge'Xam]

I have been interested in martial arts for over 25 years now. Trained in grappling and in striking arts.

The past 10 years I have been studying heavily in Tae Kwon Do (Traditional Korean Combat)

My advice to you would be to find what schools are in you area and try out classes in each. Good schools will let you try a class or two for free. Be upfront with the instructor/owner of what you are doing.

If he/she seems upset or agitated by the idea of you checking out his school then you do not want to train under them.

If they ask you to sign a contract and if they guarantee you a certain belt level by the end of the contract WALK AWAY. These are usually black belt farms and will be happy to take your money.

Find the art that best fits for you, what you like to do. It is not the martial art bu the martial artist that is important.

Bruce Lee said something along the lines of "I do not fear the man who practices a thousand kicks once, but the man you practices one kick a thousand times."

This mean if you really love something you will practice even one simple thing of the art over and over till you master it. If you do not like what you are doing you will not put in the time.

Just a heads up I read on this thread that X marital art is only good for Y. That really needs to be changed to X martial art thought at Y school is only good for Z.

Just because the sign on the door says Karate the next school you see with the same sign can and will be totally different.

[Frozen_Feet]

I find the legal bias towards Martial arts. Here in Finland sports insurances will often cover ice hockey and soccer, which are at least as injury-prone, but martial arts get lumped together with rock climbing and base jumping and need a special license.

It is true being a martial artist can place you under greater scrutiny in court cases too. Can't say it's entirely baseless - many arts will teach you more ways to harm someone than laymen can imagine. (something I found hilarious when ordered to give a crash course of hand-to-hand combat to my peers in the army - mainly because I had barely started myself!) But in a way I find it unfair.

[noparlpf]

I noticed that there wasn't yet a topic about martial arts, combat sports and self-defence training here, and as I myself am interested and looking into getting into it right now I created this topic to see if there are out there who want to talk about this.

Maybe even give tips or tell me what their favourite one is so my choice in picking one of them becomes even harder. :smalltongue: Currently mainly looking into judo, karate, taekwondo and boxing.

I just took up tae kwon do at my school. As it turns out the club is just working on getting official status from the school to get funding. So far all we've done is basic movements and a bunch of cardio.
I'm also joining the kumdo club. (That's basically kendo, but in Korean, because whoever started the club was Korean.)
Out of your choices I'd probably have trouble deciding, except that I wouldn't do boxing. If I could I would take all three.
Out of all choices, I might try Venusian karate, because I really need a life it sounds neat.

[Brother Oni]

Bruce Lee said something along the lines of "I do not fear the man who practices a thousand kicks once, but the man you practices one kick a thousand times."

This mean if you really love something you will practice even one simple thing of the art over and over till you master it. If you do not like what you are doing you will not put in the time.


I always interpreted that to mean complete mastery of the basics was better than bare knowledge over a wide range. Dedication and love of the art is superfluous to the point at hand - both men are kicking one thousand times, except that one is more focused on a single aspect of it.

You could even argue that he was talking about the difference between a specialist and a generalist.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I just took up tae kwon do at my school. As it turns out the club is just working on getting official status from the school to get funding. So far all we've done is basic movements and a bunch of cardio.
I'm also joining the kumdo club. (That's basically kendo, but in Korean, because whoever started the club was Korean.)
Out of your choices I'd probably have trouble deciding, except that I wouldn't do boxing. If I could I would take all three.
Out of all choices, I might try Venusian karate, because I really need a life it sounds neat.

Boxing gets underestimated a lot. I suspect this is because of its fairly basic nature. It covers only one aspect of the fight-game; striking, while most arts at least acknowledge that a fight will almost certainly end up in a clinch or on the ground if you don't actively work against those situations.

Boxing covers its niche, hand strikes, more completely than almost any other style. If you master boxing, you're going to be a monster when it comes to punching. You'll need to round out with something else if you want to be able to defend yourself properly in a street fight though. Get a firm grasp of BJJ to go with your boxing skills and learn how to check a kick and you're going to be a tough nut to crack for most unarmed street thugs.

[Morph Bark]

While Stephen Segal's movies are relatively subpar, the man's skill shouldn't be doubted: 1993 demonstration (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtthnZ1s9O8).

I suspect that the media you've seen is somewhat biased as what I've seen is approximately equal in gender.
I've found a demonstration of basic techniques (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0afWMLpO5oE&feature=related) and also incidentally shows what I mean about aikido breakfalls being more suitable for freerunning/parkour.

If you still feel that aikido is a 'woman's sport', then may I suggest jujutsu, which is generally regarded as aikido's brutish older cousin.

Jujutsu may be less available where I live than aikido. Also, it's not so much the idea of it being a women's sport primarily that's keeping me from it (heck, naginatajutsu is in the same position and I'd love to do that!), it's ending up in a class where I'm vastly outnumbered by females. I have no problems with mixed classes at all, but I've had classes and courses where I was the only guy (or one out of two) in a group of 12 or 15 before. It could... get awkward. :smalltongue:

I don't suppose you have any videos to offer with Steven Seagal in a serious aikido competition sort of environment? A demonstration is nice, but it has a much different setting, and the first opponent especially seemed to be making it much more of a show than necessary. (I almost thought he might be in love with the floor.)


Bah! Unless it calls for you to use your breasts as a weapon

I sincerely hope for the ladies that there is no such serious art. xD


Aikido is a decent soft style. It was one of the first I seriously looked into. There's not much in the way of striking though, it's a predominantly grappling style. Though this is a case where I'm using the term grappling pretty loosely, since it largely avoids the clinch. It's a very fluid and dynamic style.

Sounds good. The video and the descriptions I've heard of it make it sound like a grappling style that's mainly aimed at quick grappling, ensuring the opponent is on the floor and moving on, away from them. Is that correct? That might make it better against groups, whereas I'd imagine judo to be better against a single person.


I also sometimes easily confuse jujutsu and jiu-jitsu. Dang close words! :smallbiggrin: I've heard there's different forms of the latter though. I always thought it was just Brazilian, but I think someone in this thread earlier mentioned a distinction between "original" and "Brazilian" jiu-jitsu?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Jujutsu may be less available where I live than aikido. Also, it's not so much the idea of it being a women's sport primarily that's keeping me from it (heck, naginatajutsu is in the same position and I'd love to do that!), it's ending up in a class where I'm vastly outnumbered by females. I have no problems with mixed classes at all, but I've had classes and courses where I was the only guy (or one out of two) in a group of 12 or 15 before. It could... get awkward. :smalltongue:

I don't suppose you have any videos to offer with Steven Seagal in a serious aikido competition sort of environment? A demonstration is nice, but it has a much different setting, and the first opponent especially seemed to be making it much more of a show than necessary. (I almost thought he might be in love with the floor.)



I sincerely hope for the ladies that there is no such serious art. xD



Sounds good. The video and the descriptions I've heard of it make it sound like a grappling style that's mainly aimed at quick grappling, ensuring the opponent is on the floor and moving on, away from them. Is that correct? That might make it better against groups, whereas I'd imagine judo to be better against a single person. That's about right. There are some joint locks too though, which make the style well suited to a single opponent as well. Ideally you want to just get the hell away if there's an entire group after you. The whole style was built around the notion of disabling or disuading your enemy from continuing to attack you without harming him.



I also sometimes easily confuse jujutsu and jiu-jitsu. Dang close words! :smallbiggrin: I've heard there's different forms of the latter though. I always thought it was just Brazilian, but I think someone in this thread earlier mentioned a distinction between "original" and "Brazilian" jiu-jitsu?

That was me. Jui-Jitsu originally comes from Japan. Brazillian is a regional adaptation. I've only studied brazillian though so I'm not overmuch sure of the differences. Just FYI there's also small-circle jiu-jitsu, and the rubber-guard style of brazillian jiu-jitsu, though this last one was developed only in the last 15 years or so, IIRC.

[Artemis97]

Taking a step away from all the Eastern martial arts talk, I'm a part of a Fencing Club on my college campus. I mostly do it for fun and exercise, because it has little real world application. I mean, no one really carries around swords anymore, but I think it's a cool thing to know about. Still, if we weren't wearing the protective gear, you could easily lose an eye. Heck, last week, I got the paint scraped off my glasses by the inside of my mask because I took a hard hit to the head and I wasn't wearing it quite tight enough.

Anyways, the footwork drills are great cardio as you go back and forth down the strip. Repeated parrying drills really tire out your arms. Matches, though they're supposed to be limited to 3 minutes, can stretch on for a while. It's mentally tiring too, having to react and counter attack so quickly.

I enjoy it because I don't need a lot of muscle to do it, nor a whole lot of stamina, since the matches are fairly short. But it is helping me build up both. It isn't full contact, either. So though I'm a little sore at the end, I'm not at risk for serious injury (though I do get some interesting quarter sized bruises occasionally). Yes, it's a bit impractical, but swords are cool!

For finding a place for any sort of martial art, I suggest looking towards a nearby college campus. While it may be that their club is restricted to students only, you can ask about paying a small fee to get into it for a semester. School's probably won't say no to extra money, and it's a great environment, because everyone's pretty much there to try something new anyways. We only charge a $25 fee per semester for anyone from outside the school who wants to join, so it's really cheap compared to what a dojo or official school might charge. Just something to look into, as a nearby school might offer something similar.

[Spiryt]

I also sometimes easily confuse jujutsu and jiu-jitsu. Dang close words! :smallbiggrin: I've heard there's different forms of the latter though. I always thought it was just Brazilian, but I think someone in this thread earlier mentioned a distinction between "original" and "Brazilian" jiu-jitsu?

Jiu-jitsu is Japanese hybrid style dating at least to early 16th century.

BJJ is pretty exclusively grappling art builded from Judo, JJ, and other inspirations by Gracie family (mainly).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Jiu-Jitsu

[Brother Oni]

Boxing covers its niche, hand strikes, more completely than almost any other style.

I agree that boxing is underestimated because of its limited scope, but it's important to also recognise its limitations in punching as well. You're not going to have gloves or wraps on all the time, so some variation from the clenched fist (palm strikes, ridge hands, hammer fists, etc) is good to know, else one poorly placed punch will completely knacker up your fist, most likely losing you the fight.


I have no problems with mixed classes at all, but I've had classes and courses where I was the only guy (or one out of two) in a group of 12 or 15 before. It could... get awkward. :smalltongue:

Dude, groin guard. Not only does it protect the family jewels, it also covers up the effects of errant thoughts when you're wrestling with hot sweaty women. :smalltongue:



I don't suppose you have any videos to offer with Steven Seagal in a serious aikido competition sort of environment? A demonstration is nice, but it has a much different setting, and the first opponent especially seemed to be making it much more of a show than necessary. (I almost thought he might be in love with the floor.)

I'll have a look, but I'd be surprised if there are any competition videos. There's one where he apparently goes up against 3 MMA fighters, but I haven't seen it to be able to judge the quality of it.



I sincerely hope for the ladies that there is no such serious art. xD


There's probably some form of self defence that utilises a lady's natural assets as a distraction, so she can get that pepper spray/tazer/pistol out to disable her assailant.

[Kelb_Panthera]

@ brother oni: you're right of course that the clenched fist is hardly the only effective way to position your fingers for a hand strike, but proper conditioning with bare-knuckle practice (not bare-knuckle sparring, don't do that) can make the chance of hurting your wrist/knuckles just as slim as with any other hand position.

Which actually brings to mind the subject of bone conditioning, the portion of some martial arts that allows the classic board breaking thing. In most first-world societies any significant amount of intentional conditioning of the bones to withstand impact is probably excessive. Unless you're going to go into competitive breaking, it's probably best to avoid more than the bit of incidental conditioning that results from regularly working a punching bag.

I'm not even 30 yet and I'm already getting some mild arthritic symptoms in my dominant hand. I can throw a cross into a brick wall, full-force, without doing much more than tearing a little skin though, so I've got no complaints. :smallbiggrin: I don't do that much anymore after that one incident though. :smallredface:

You think a person'll get irritated for you running on their wall, you should see how ticked they get when you punch a hole in one. :smalltongue: Fortunately for me it was just a decorative wall and getting it repaired wasn't too expensive. No charges were filed thankfully.

[Morph Bark]

Dude, groin guard. Not only does it protect the family jewels, it also covers up the effects of errant thoughts when you're wrestling with hot sweaty women. :smalltongue:

I wasn't even thinking about that, actually. I guess I may have given the wrong impression of myself there, sorry. I was moreso thinking that in groups where you're the only member of your sex you feel more quickly left out, or conversations arise that you're either unfamiliar or uncomfortable with.

That being said though, there'd likely be other forms of awkwardness involved if I'd spar with a girl who I find attractive.

There is apparently an aikido group in a town 7 miles from here. At that dojo they also practice judo, jiu-jitsu and tai chi. I'll call 'em later and see when they have practice.

[Brother Oni]

I wasn't even thinking about that, actually. I guess I may have given the wrong impression of myself there, sorry. I was moreso thinking that in groups where you're the only member of your sex you feel more quickly left out, or conversations arise that you're either unfamiliar or uncomfortable with.

While I see what your problem is, to be honest it's a bit of a non-issue in my opinion. It's not a social club, you're there to learn a martial art - if the class ends up more like a social club than a martial arts lesson, then you'll probably want to find a new school.

Edit: I just realised that I'm probably biased in my viewpoint of disregarding the social aspect. As an ethnic minority, I'm so used to being outnumbered in a different way that I don't really pay much attention to the gender balance.



That being said though, there'd likely be other forms of awkwardness involved if I'd spar with a girl who I find attractive.

While this is probably where the groin guard comes in useful, I think it'd depend on what your personality is like. Aggressive physical action pretty much shuts down any libido I have.

While I have sparred against some very attractive women, I quickly realised that it would be sexist and disrespectful of me to treat them any different - they're there to train, not to get drooled over. If you want to try and hit on them, do so after the class.

About the only time I 'go easy' on my partner is when there's a significant skill/physical difference or they ask me to - I ended up once against one poor girl who about half my weight, 6" shorter and had only started kickboxing that term (I had been training for about 4 years by that point). I just didn't have the heart to spar properly against her.

[Wyntonian]

I've done (shin shin toitsu, Koichi Tohei's style) aikido for about... four years now? I'm not terribly good at the whole One Point concept, and it's been a pretty serious limitation on my art.

I'm considering branching out a bit, maybe into some sort of european fencing or the like. I'll be off to college soon, probably in Portland, Oregon, and I know that there's a pretty significant community of martial artists there too.

Any suggestions for a second style?

[Brother Oni]

I've done (shin shin toitsu, Koichi Tohei's style) aikido for about... four years now? I'm not terribly good at the whole One Point concept, and it's been a pretty serious limitation on my art.

I'm considering branching out a bit, maybe into some sort of european fencing or the like. I'll be off to college soon, probably in Portland, Oregon, and I know that there's a pretty significant community of martial artists there too.

Any suggestions for a second style?

You already have the 'grappling' part down, so probably a striking art (boxing, TKD, kickboxing, karate, etc) to round out your capabilities.

Fencing and other weapon styles should really be regarded as separate to any unarmed art you pick up as it's somewhat difficult to integrate them well (aikido excepted).
That said, if you want to do fencing, go do fencing. Unless you're intending to be in a occupation where being able to fight effectively is of critical importance, you should study what you like, not what makes you the most effective (unless you like being effective).

[Morph Bark]

*snip*

I... I think you're getting an image of me that's the opposite of what I want here. I've stated I'm looking for a martial art for the exercise, the sport, with added benefit of self defense. While I'd certainly not discount the social aspect, it's not my primary aim, and certainly not to meet girls as I'm already dating one.

I merely wished to point out that there might be awkwardness of a sort that is utterly uncontrolled. And I'd like to leave it at that, as otherwise the thread will end up in a direction away from its original intent and into one that I don't wish to see it go. There's other threads with plenty discussion on that.


Fencing and other weapon styles should really be regarded as separate to any unarmed art you pick up as it's somewhat difficult to integrate them well (aikido excepted).

Why "aikido excepted"? Is aikido so easy to integrate into weapon styles?

Otherwise though, I agree. While holding a weapon, you can't exactly use your hands for other things, which is what most martial arts focus on. Something with kicks could combine with it pretty well though.

[Spiryt]

Why "aikido excepted"? Is aikido so easy to integrate into weapon styles?

Otherwise though, I agree. While holding a weapon, you can't exactly use your hands for other things, which is what most martial arts focus on. Something with kicks could combine with it pretty well though.

Any form of wrestling is 'easy' and often unavoidable in encounter - with other hand, general clinch, balance etc. Most Renaissance sword manuals deal with some wrestling as well, for example.

[noparlpf]

Any form of wrestling is 'easy' and often unavoidable in encounter - with other hand, general clinch, balance etc. Most Renaissance sword manuals deal with some wrestling as well, for example.

Yeah, one of the others newbies and I were commenting on how kumdo is frustrating because you're not allowed to grapple with the other guy when your swords are locked, and it's kind of reflexive to try to trip him or punch him or go for his sword wrist or something.

[Brother Oni]

I... I think you're getting an image of me that's the opposite of what I want here. I've stated I'm looking for a martial art for the exercise, the sport, with added benefit of self defense. While I'd certainly not discount the social aspect, it's not my primary aim, and certainly not to meet girls as I'm already dating one.

I apologise if that's what you inferred. I don't think I was very clear in my post.
What I meant that any issues about awkwardness about being in a predominantly female class shouldn't really be a problem.



Why "aikido excepted"? Is aikido so easy to integrate into weapon styles?

Further to other answers, a large chunk of aikido is initiated by the opponent grabbing hold of your wrists. How do you make him go for your wrists and not just punch you in the face - by reaching for your sword.

Anybody who would rather punch you in the face than control your weapon, is usually an idiot who'll shortly end up skewered on the aforementioned weapon.

These days, the sword can be replaced by a lot of other things - for example your mobile phone (to call the police), a pistol (although a lot of that is covered by defensive shooting techniques) or some other self defence tool (pepper spray, rape alarm, etc).

[Kelb_Panthera]

@ morph bark:

having a weapon in hand isn't as limiting in your ability to use non-weapon strikes as you seem to think. Kicks are largely unaffected for one thing. For another, you can still get a hand free even if your weapon is two-handed and there's no good reason you can't punch someone with the hand you're holding a one-handed weapon in if the enemy is too close to use the weapon effectively. You're not doing yourself any favors if you don't learn to integrate unarmed strikes into a weapon style.

The biggest hiccup in this is that the schools that teach weapon styles aren't exactly great about teaching how to integrate complex systems of unarmed strikes into their use. You really only see it in styles that start off as unarmed styles and later integrate weapon use.

BTW, the most useful weapon styles for practical application are the various stick-fighting styles. You don't have to carry a stick around, you can find something similar in most settings.

[Morph Bark]

Further to other answers, a large chunk of aikido is initiated by the opponent grabbing hold of your wrists. How do you make him go for your wrists and not just punch you in the face - by reaching for your sword.

Anybody who would rather punch you in the face than control your weapon, is usually an idiot who'll shortly end up skewered on the aforementioned weapon.

I see. Hm, that's very handy. And yeah. The only times you should punch someone with a weapon in the face should be after you control their weapon. Which is usually only when you have two hands free yourself.


BTW, the most useful weapon styles for practical application are the various stick-fighting styles. You don't have to carry a stick around, you can find something similar in most settings.

One reason why I'd rather practice kendo than fencing. Though kendo is still one of those "do" arts, I suppose. Are there any other swordfighting styles that could be applied to sticks?

[noparlpf]

One reason why I'd rather practice kendo than fencing. Though kendo is still one of those "do" arts, I suppose. Are there any other swordfighting styles that could be applied to sticks?

Kendo is very formal, though, so a lot of what you learn is for scoring points in matches, and isn't as useful in real life.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Kendo is very formal, though, so a lot of what you learn is for scoring points in matches, and isn't as useful in real life.

^this.

When I said stickfighting, I was thinking more escrima or a style of bo-fighting. Sword technique translates reasonably if you have any object of about the right length and weight to mimic the sword you're trained for, though the balance will almost invariably be a bit off.

[Morph Bark]

True. Especially since with sticks, the balance is usually somewhere in the middle, whereas with a sword it's near the hilt where you're holding it.

Reminds me I'd love to learn Niten Ichi-ryu...

[scurv]

Blackbelts in to many styles are given away to easily anymore. As far as what you get out of martial arts, It will be based on what you put into it.

When you go to the dojo they will teach your body its martial language and words. They may help you build your martial vocab to a respectable level. With drills and competing with others
But it is on you to write poetry with your body, That extra step is always on you, Everyone has their own way of becoming an artist, But that is half the fun.

[Morph Bark]

Considering the black belt means you've mastered the basics (and how a lot of martial arts don't even work with a belt system, I've only heard about it in relation to judo, karate and some modern Korean martial arts), I'd say I'd prefer to go on until the second dan at least, to show I've got a tiny bit of mastery beyond the basics, but it all depends on the art itself.

I tried calling one of the dojos today in a nearby town, but it turns out they don't have office hours on thursdays. I'll call again tomorrow, see what they can tell me about the courses they offer (judo, tai chi, aikido and jiu-jitsu).

I also found out there's a Krav Maga center in my town. Quite a surprise! Their site tells me they offer a free two-hour introduction course, so that should give me a fair insight. Even if I don't take it up regularly, they also have a crash course in it for twice a week, three weeks in a row, one and a half hours each. Couldn't find anything on the price, but I'll ask once I talk to someone there.

Next week it's a holiday week for most schools and thus also a lot of sport schools as well. After that I'll be checking out all of them, if possible, find out what suits me. This will include:
- Aikido
- Boxing
- Jiu-Jitsu
- Judo
- Karate
- Krav Maga
- Tae Kwon Do
- Tai Chi (not really what I'm looking for, but I've never seen it in person, so might as well drop by since it's in the same dojo)

Hopefully it'll all fit in one week schedule...

[Morbis Meh]

Well I can tell you based on my first experience (first class last night) of Judo was really fun though exceptionally draining. A full body work out and the club I am joining is awesome, my friend and i were new and we had a sensai to ourselves for the entire night. I will probably have to start paying after next week but their prices are exceptionally low, 350 (canadian) for an entire year that covers all tournament fees and everything else short of purchasing your own gi. I am really sore but excited for the next class!

[Spiryt]

Considering the black belt means you've mastered the basics (and how a lot of martial arts don't even work with a belt system, I've only heard about it in relation to judo, karate and some modern Korean martial arts), I'd say I'd prefer to go on until the second dan at least, to show I've got a tiny bit of mastery beyond the basics, but it all depends on the art itself.


Brazilian Jiu-jitsu black belt cannot be legally obtained (in serious classes) without at least 5 years of being ranked as lower belts, and generally being active.

In practice, most averagely talented and training people will reach it way later, if ever.

And Judo ranking is pretty strongly tied with BJJ, and similar.

So it depends on art, but in those, for example, black belt has nothing to do with "basics" generally.

[noparlpf]

Blackbelts in to many styles are given away to easily anymore. As far as what you get out of martial arts, It will be based on what you put into it.

When you go to the dojo they will teach your body its martial language and words. They may help you build your martial vocab to a respectable level. With drills and competing with others
But it is on you to write poetry with your body, That extra step is always on you, Everyone has their own way of becoming an artist, But that is half the fun.

Yeah...at the school tae kwon do club, we split up into two groups, people with some experience and newbies. And two of the people in the more experienced group seemed to hardly be able to manage the warmup pushups; one of those two said she was going for a black belt test soon. Now I don't want to be unnecessarily critical without more information, but I can't imagine passing a black belt exam when one can't do pushups properly and seems to be having trouble with just thirty.


I also found out there's a Krav Maga center in my town. Quite a surprise! Their site tells me they offer a free two-hour introduction course, so that should give me a fair insight. Even if I don't take it up regularly, they also have a crash course in it for twice a week, three weeks in a row, one and a half hours each. Couldn't find anything on the price, but I'll ask once I talk to someone there.

Next week it's a holiday week for most schools and thus also a lot of sport schools as well. After that I'll be checking out all of them, if possible, find out what suits me. This will include:
- Aikido
- Boxing
- Jiu-Jitsu
- Judo
- Karate
- Krav Maga
- Tae Kwon Do
- Tai Chi (not really what I'm looking for, but I've never seen it in person, so might as well drop by since it's in the same dojo)

Hopefully it'll all fit in one week schedule...

Ooh, cool. Krav maga is neat. I think if I could I'd try most of those out.


Uniforms seem to cost money. Ah well, sweatpants work alright for now.

[Morph Bark]

So apparently there's several boxing clubs (which also offer kickboxing, which they call "Thaiboxing"), none of them in my town, all roughly 5-8 miles away. One place even offers unlimited training times. Neat, although I doubt it's truly "unlimited" of course! (But probably every night and whole weekends or such.)

This means I get to add kickboxing to my list above as well. Daaang.

[noparlpf]

So apparently there's several boxing clubs (which also offer kickboxing, which they call "Thaiboxing"), none of them in my town, all roughly 5-8 miles away. One place even offers unlimited training times. Neat, although I doubt it's truly "unlimited" of course! (But probably every night and whole weekends or such.)

This means I get to add kickboxing to my list above as well. Daaang.

"Thaiboxing" sounds like they might mean muay thai?


Anybody else have asthma or chronic tendonitis and have suggestions for how to deal with them? Today my asthma was randomly causing trouble, so I missed practice. Figure I'll work out tomorrow instead. And the tendonitis in my left wrist is kind of annoying sometimes.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So apparently there's several boxing clubs (which also offer kickboxing, which they call "Thaiboxing"), none of them in my town, all roughly 5-8 miles away. One place even offers unlimited training times. Neat, although I doubt it's truly "unlimited" of course! (But probably every night and whole weekends or such.)

This means I get to add kickboxing to my list above as well. Daaang.

Thaiboxing almost certainly means muay thai, which is a pretty high-impact style. It's also a pretty effective style for self-defense though.

Inspite of the similarity in names, boxing and kickboxing are wildly different animals. You may need to ask more questions or actually go there to see which one they actually do at each of these clubs, though I wouldn't be suprised if a couple of them offered courses in both.

Since you're looking at martial arts primarily for fitness, I'd suggest going with a kickboxing course. Many of the long-time boxers I've seen have massive arms with tiny little stick-legs. It's not so much that their legs aren't in good shape, as it is their arms are in way better shape, and it creates a stark contrast that I, personally, find a little comical.

[Morph Bark]

Well, in addition to martial arts, I'd still be doing some jogging/running every (other) day for a few miles, and if I take up boxing I'll likely be going by bike cycling for 16 miles. My legs are pretty thick by nature already, whereas my arms are very thin.

I thought they might mean Muay Thai as well, but in both instances they also referred to it as kickboxing and in neither of them did they mention use of elbows and knees, which is one of the key differences between Muay Thai and kickboxing, if I'm correct.

Silently I'm hoping that one of them is kickboxing and the other Muay Thai, just so that I get to try out more stuff. But I doubt that'll be the case. :smalltongue: So far, the nearest Muay Thai club I've found is a good 20 miles away, which is way too far for my tastes.

EDIT: Found a Muay Thai club in one of the other towns around!

[Spiryt]

Many of the long-time boxers I've seen have massive arms with tiny little stick-legs. It's not so much that their legs aren't in good shape, as it is their arms are in way better shape

Their arms are not in 'better' shape, just different. Possibly even in better shape.

Large amount of elite level pro-boxers have smallish, really compact, ridiculously conditioned legs for maximal mobility in the footwork, to be as fleet on feet as possible, with ability to keep it up for long time.

Just adaptation. Most of them with good, classic form just don't need thick legs at all.



I thought they might mean Muay Thai as well, but in both instances they also referred to it as kickboxing and in neither of them did they mention use of elbows and knees, which is one of the key differences between Muay Thai and kickboxing, if I'm correct.

'Kick-boxing' is really broad term for pretty much anything that involves all around striking. There will be plenty of elbows and knees, depending on style and school.

AFAIR "American kickboxing" competitions are pretty damn restrictive, generally with striking with fists and feet above the hip, indeed, but that's only one style of competition.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I may not have phrased that well, but realistically, both the arms and legs have developed muscle memory and fast-twitch muscle fiber, but the arms also have significantly more sustained force muscle fiber*. It's a result of training the arms for both speed and power while training the legs almost exclusively for speed. Long-term recreational and semi professinal boxers tend to be in remarkable shape, long-term damage from repeated head trauma not-withstanding, but the sharp contrast between their arms and legs just looks a little funny to me.

For the record, I don't mean any disrespect if you're reading this and you're a boxer.

*I should really learn the names for those two different kinds of muscle fiber.

[Spiryt]

I'm not a boxer, I'm just pointing out that their legs are very 'in shape' just adopted for crazy footwork all day.

Obviously that's not really given either, see also David Tua and his legs.

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/David+Tua+v+Shane+Cameron+Weigh+ThQEzFgGRhPl.jpg

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not a boxer, I'm just pointing out that their legs are very 'in shape' just adopted for crazy footwork all day.

Obviously that's not really given either, see also David Tua and his legs.

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/David+Tua+v+Shane+Cameron+Weigh+ThQEzFgGRhPl.jpg

I never said that boxers' legs weren't in shape. My last post explains how they very much are, and you're right, it's not a given that a boxer will automatically have skinny legs, but it is a noticeable trend, or at least it has been in my rather anecdotal sampling.

Actually, their legs aren't even really skinny. They just look skinny compared to their massive arms.

Not that I suppose it really matters much how they look as long as they do what you want 'em to do.

[Morph Bark]

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/David+Tua+v+Shane+Cameron+Weigh+ThQEzFgGRhPl.jpg

Those... calves...

They're actually making me cry tears of joy and envy just looking at them.

[Worira]

I like how he's just kind of staring down at his legs, like "Whoa! Where did these come from!"

[Janus]

Took kenjutsu back in the day, though we unfortunately merged with a kendo school and I eventually left. The kendo class had too many rules like "You can't use diagonal cuts as a white belt."
....I am perfectly capable of making a diagonal strike. It's not a feat that I have to unlock next level. :smallannoyed:
Managed to take ninjutsu for a few months before I left the country for two years, and sadly my instructor moved away while I was gone.

On the bright side, I'm going to try German longsword tomorrow with the local ARMA group. :smallbiggrin:

[Morph Bark]

On the bright side, I'm going to try German longsword tomorrow with the local ARMA group. :smallbiggrin:

Nice!

On that note, has anyone else come across kendo classes with such strict rules? :smallconfused:

[noparlpf]

Nice!

On that note, has anyone else come across kendo classes with such strict rules? :smallconfused:

In my experience, kendo is super-formal, and it's not even really about a realistic form of combat. It's a somewhat stylised combat to score points in a very specific sort of way in tournaments.

I'd like to find a German sword school, but I have no idea where to start looking, and also those usually cost money.

[Morph Bark]

In my experience, kendo is super-formal, and it's not even really about a realistic form of combat. It's a somewhat stylised combat to score points in a very specific sort of way in tournaments.

That's true, and I know that, but I meant more in the sense of that you aren't allowed to use certain moves until you've reached a certain dan grade in the sport.

Also, can anyone tell me what "hanguldo" is? I've seen it stand next to Hapkido and its relatives, but have yet to find an explanation of it.

I keep finding more stuff nearby. Or rather, more stuff due to also searching in the two big cities nearby, rather than just my town and three surrounding ones.

[noparlpf]

That's true, and I know that, but I meant more in the sense of that you aren't allowed to use certain moves until you've reached a certain dan grade in the sport.

Also, can anyone tell me what "hanguldo" is? I've seen it stand next to Hapkido and its relatives, but have yet to find an explanation of it.

I keep finding more stuff nearby. Or rather, more stuff due to also searching in the two big cities nearby, rather than just my town and three surrounding ones.

Ah. Yeah, I'm not sure about that. I'll try looking it up.

I think this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hankido) is what you're looking for.

[Morph Bark]

Nonono, it said Hankido seperately next to that. "Hapkido - Hankido - Hankumdo - Hanguldo" it said. On several sites of dojos around the country.

[Asta Kask]

http://www.european-hanguldo-federation.org/html/hanguldo.html

European hanguldo federation. You'll have to find someone to translate from German.

[Janus]

Turned out that every route online to the longsword group used closed highways. :smallannoyed:
I'll try again next Saturday.


I'd like to find a German sword school, but I have no idea where to start looking, and also those usually cost money.
http://www.thearma.org/Practice/partners.htm
Try ARMA. If anything, they have a lot of information about European martial arts on their site.

[Morph Bark]

http://www.european-hanguldo-federation.org/html/hanguldo.html

European hanguldo federation. You'll have to find someone to translate from German.

Thanks. Luckily I can understand German well enough to get most of what they mean.

Today I found places in nearby cities for Wing Chun, Shaolin Kung Fu, Kendo/Jodo/Iaido, Pencak Silat and Sando. One place has a LOT of stuff, but is also the furthest away of the ones I could reasonably attend, but only if I had money for the bus or could get my dad's car. It even has MMA classes, which in the process of trying out everything will probably be the last one on the list that I'll visit.

There's also one place where they teach swordfighting, but the site fails so incredibly often that I haven't yet really been able to read into it. :smallfrown:

[snoopy13a]

Kendo is very formal, though, so a lot of what you learn is for scoring points in matches, and isn't as useful in real life.

Not for nothing, but is any type of swordfighting, realistic or not, useful in real life?

[noparlpf]

Not for nothing, but is any type of swordfighting, realistic or not, useful in real life?

Well. Maybe not modern real life. But that's not the point. Besides, is carrying a sword illegal?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Not for nothing, but is any type of swordfighting, realistic or not, useful in real life?It can be. If you find yourself in a bad situation and there happens to be an appropriately sized stick or pipe nearby, the techniques will translate reasonably well, assuming the style is still reasonably close to its combative roots.


Well. Maybe not modern real life. But that's not the point. Besides, is carrying a sword illegal?

Depends on where you live. It's generally frowned upon, even if it is legal unless you have a permit to carry a concealed deadly weapon and keep it under wraps.

[Janus]

It can be. If you find yourself in a bad situation and there happens to be an appropriately sized stick or pipe nearby, the techniques will translate reasonably well, assuming the style is still reasonably close to its combative roots.
THIS.
Thisthisthisthis.

It's why I'm annoyed with all the drawbacks D&D throws in for improvised weapons.

[SiuiS]

In my experience, kendo is super-formal, and it's not even really about a realistic form of combat. It's a somewhat stylised combat to score points in a very specific sort of way in tournaments.

I'd like to find a German sword school, but I have no idea where to start looking, and also those usually cost money.

Believe it or not, a skilled kendoka is unstoppably fast. you can mitigate the force but if one comes at you with a broomstick an intent, you're gonna get hit. And while striking the armor is for safety in Kendo, that translates to broken wrists, skulls, ribs and collapsed throat in unarmed combat. They may need to think real hard before using it for swordwork, but it is phenomenal stick skill


Not for nothing, but is any type of swordfighting, realistic or not, useful in real life?

Yes.


Well. Maybe not modern real life. But that's not the point. Besides, is carrying a sword illegal?

Not as such. They often fall under knives. Although its still reasonable suspicion, and possibly felonious carrying of a martial arts weapon. As far as generalities go, of course. Specifics are a no-no.



Depends on where you live. It's generally frowned upon, even if it is legal unless you have a permit to carry a concealed deadly weapon and keep it under wraps.

concealed? There is almost no way to carry a sword concealed at the hip. Or did you mean something else?

[Morph Bark]

Not for nothing, but is any type of swordfighting, realistic or not, useful in real life?

As Kelb said, it can reasonably translate to real life if you find an appropriately sized stick. Fencing doesn't have that as much as kendo, since in kendo you train with a bamboo sword, which is balanced very differently from fencing swords and much closer to a random stick (weight will differ still though). Might be why they teach jodo a lot at the same dojos as kendo around here.

Eskrima's prolly good as well, but that isn't sword-only.

What kind of swordfighting is most useful in real life, actually?


Where I'm from, I hear you're not allowed to carry even replica swords. You need to keep them in a box or some other form of casing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Believe it or not, a skilled kendoka is unstoppably fast. you can mitigate the force but if one comes at you with a broomstick an intent, you're gonna get hit. And while striking the armor is for safety in Kendo, that translates to broken wrists, skulls, ribs and collapsed throat in unarmed combat. They may need to think real hard before using it for swordwork, but it is phenomenal stick skill



Yes.



Not as such. They often fall under knives. Although its still reasonable suspicion, and possibly felonious carrying of a martial arts weapon. As far as generalities go, of course. Specifics are a no-no.



concealed? There is almost no way to carry a sword concealed at the hip. Or did you mean something else?

There's no such thing as unstoppably fast. Reflexes vary from person to person and some people can pull off moves that are almost preternatural.

As for concealing a sword, two things come to mind. The first is the cane-sword. It's a sword that's similar to the swords used in fencing and the scabbard and hilt are designed to make it look like a simple walking cane until you draw. The other is wearing a bit more traditional shortsword of some sort with the scabbard strapped diagonally across your back with the handle pointed down and toward you dominant side. You have to reach under your coat to draw it, but it's otherwise difficult to detect.

Concealing something like a broadsword or arming sword would require wearing a trench-coat or duster, and keeping it concealed in doors would be pretty much impossible if the place was heated or you had to sit down.

Check with you local law enforcement agency and/or a lawyer to determine the legality of concealed carrying of any kind of deadly weapon in your area, though, and make sure to ask about swords in particular, as they may be governed by different laws than guns. I won't say any more on this subject since I feel I'm getting uncumfortably close to the forum's legal advice rule.

For a good sword style for use with a non-sword, any style that centered around heavily armored combatants will translate well. Knights would often grip their sword by the guard or the blade for some techniques because doing so was advantageous and their guantlets protected their hands. Since a stick probably won't cut you, using it in a similar style should yeild effective results.

Don't think that a shinai or even a boken is weighted like any random stick you might find though. Both are balanced to simulate the katana, the sword they replace in practice.

[SiuiS]

There's no such thing as unstoppably fast. Reflexes vary from person to person and some people can pull off moves that are almost preternatural.

Sophistry. Of course some people seem really good; these Kendoka fall under that category. It's also a factor of awareness, actual speed and effective speed in combination. My point still stands; kendo can and will, of you care to learn it, teach you speed.


As for concealing a sword,

Going into something with the intent to conceal a lethal weapon is a very different beast than having a sword on you. I still don't understand why you would carry a sword, concealed, on your person. But whatever.

Concealed weapons are noticeable. The posture is different. The clothes hang differently. A person who knows they have a weapon will unconsciously gesture their hands toward its resting spot. They will either pointedly lock their gaze or flick twir eyes in the direction of the weapon. Trench coats do a really bad job of concealing swords because the motion transmits down the lever differentt than it does the legs and clothes. The fabric will cover It visually but it's akin to a tablecloth hiding a table.



Tried some of the taijiquan forms I know. Or knew. Not only are try Arles, but my legs and back aren't happy. I may get back into these things yet.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sophistry. Of course some people seem really good; these Kendoka fall under that category. It's also a factor of awareness, actual speed and effective speed in combination. My point still stands; kendo can and will, of you care to learn it, teach you speed. Wasn't denying that. Just that kendo or any other martial art could make you un-anything (-beatable, -stoppable, -detectably fast, etc).




Going into something with the intent to conceal a lethal weapon is a very different beast than having a sword on you. I still don't understand why you would carry a sword, concealed, on your person. But whatever. I wouldn't, but it is doable. I -do- carry a pretty good sized knife sometimes.


Concealed weapons are noticeable. The posture is different. The clothes hang differently. A person who knows they have a weapon will unconsciously gesture their hands toward its resting spot. They will either pointedly lock their gaze or flick twir eyes in the direction of the weapon. Trench coats do a really bad job of concealing swords because the motion transmits down the lever differentt than it does the legs and clothes. The fabric will cover It visually but it's akin to a tablecloth hiding a table. Except for your point about the motion of the trenchcoat, all of those depend on training and the exact cut of your clothing. The knife I mentioned above is arguably a short-sword (16 inches overall length), but noone's ever noticed it on me when I do carry it. Carrying a weapon for protection and carrying a weapon with the intent of harming someone are very different animals. You get used to the former after a while and all but forget you have it unless something triggers your sense of danger. Learning to conceal the fact that it's been triggered is another matter.




Tried some of the taijiquan forms I know. Or knew. Not only are try Arles, but my legs and back aren't happy. I may get back into these things yet.

Ouch. Back pain sucks. Hope that clears up for you.

[SiuiS]

I wouldn't, but it is doable. I -do- carry a pretty good sized knife sometimes.

Except for your point about the motion of the trenchcoat, all of those depend on training and the exact cut of your clothing. The knife I mentioned above is arguably a short-sword (16 inches overall length), but noone's ever noticed it on me when I do carry it. Carrying a weapon for protection and carrying a weapon with the intent of harming someone are very different animals. You get used to the former after a while and all but forget you have it unless something triggers your sense of danger. Learning to conceal the fact that it's been triggered is another matter.

That's introducing extra variables though: the cut of the clothes can help, but that calls in other people's lack of observation skill. Learning to consider something a part of you so you don't fidget with it is likewise a matter of acclimation, an intent. I would be surprised if you didn't have some tell. It's the sort of thing that becomes habitual. Whether or my someone knows it's a tell and not an affectation is a different matter.



Ouch. Back pain sucks. Hope that clears up for you.

Yes, consequences of a sedentary lifestyle I fear. Also sorry. That was atrocious spelling even for me.

[scurv]

Never introduce a weapon into combat unless you are proficient in it. If someone is jumping you, You do not know if they have 5 years of blade fighting experience in the bad streets, lock down,<insert military unit here> or they could of been the youngest of 6 siblings who used them as a punching bag. So the weapon you introduce could very well end up becoming theirs.

Many people do not plan their career into a life of crime, Some of them decide on it based on what skills they already have.

Added to that, And I know the law vary alot on this from place to place, even inside of the states. If you are the one to bring out the blade, it could seem as if you are the attacker to law enforcement types. And even in the states we have so many laws on acceptable self defense that I would be concerned about using my opponents weapon on them.

Now all that aside, Personally I would love to learn sword fighting, And I would happily do it just for the love of the art.

[Kelb_Panthera]

^ scurv here is absolutely right.

You should never carry a weapon that you're not proficient with. You should never carry a weapon you're not prepared to use if it's called for, and you should never, ever draw your weapon first, unless you feel your life will be endangered by failing to do so.

All combat is serious business, but this is extra true of weapon based combat.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I'm assuming fencing ties into this topic, yes? :) I'm, or rather, I used to be a competetive fencer. It's been a few years however. I miss it a lot.

[noparlpf]

How do you know who "won" a spar if it's not to KO? I don't think they explained the point-scoring system to us, or if they did it was one of the days I missed.
I also hope the school gives us funding soon so we can buy more sparring gear. I bruised my foot pretty badly yesterday because we had no shin-and-ankle-guards.

[Asta Kask]

Wasn't denying that. Just that kendo or any other martial art could make you un-anything (-beatable, -stoppable, -detectably fast, etc).

I imagine a martial arts master could become pretty unbearable. Especially if they won't shut up about their preferred art.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How do you know who "won" a spar if it's not to KO? I don't think they explained the point-scoring system to us, or if they did it was one of the days I missed.
I also hope the school gives us funding soon so we can buy more sparring gear. I bruised my foot pretty badly yesterday because we had no shin-and-ankle-guards.
Winning isn't generally the point in a spar. You spar to sharpen your skills by employing them in an environment where you can have a reasonable assurance that you won't be intentionally, seriously injured, and have reasonably skilled peers that can help you to spot weak-points in your technique or tactics. Winning is for real fights and competition, but if you absolutely must know "who won" having a neutral observer declare a winner can work.

I imagine a martial arts master could become pretty unbearable. Especially if they won't shut up about their preferred art.

Touche'. While I find that genuine masters of a given art are usually pretty mellow, masters of a gym or training hall can get a little antsy if the idea that their style isn't awesome comes up. Many martial artists are prone to a bit of bravado.

[noparlpf]

Winning isn't generally the point in a spar. You spar to sharpen your skills by employing them in an environment where you can have a reasonable assurance that you won't be intentionally, seriously injured, and have reasonably skilled peers that can help you to spot weak-points in your technique or tactics. Winning is for real fights and competition, but if you absolutely must know "who won" having a neutral observer declare a winner can work.

Well, yeah, but as an adolescent male I'm unhealthily competitive. So naturally I want to know "who's better". Even if we're still just beginners.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well, yeah, but as an adolescent male I'm unhealthily competitive. So naturally I want to know "who's better". Even if we're still just beginners.

Then like I said, ask a neutral observer to compare your performances, preferably one whose skill exceeds you both. Don't ask who won though, it'll get you a lecture if he's not also overly-competetive. You can just decide who won for yourself by who made more, or more important, mistakes. Keep it to yourself, noone likes a braggard.

[SiuiS]

How do you know who "won" a spar if it's not to KO? I don't think they explained the point-scoring system to us, or if they did it was one of the days I missed.
I also hope the school gives us funding soon so we can buy more sparring gear. I bruised my foot pretty badly yesterday because we had no shin-and-ankle-guards.

Generally, you'll know if there is a clear winner if you require a winner, then there is often a preset 'win' condition, such a firs to get a solid strike in, or first to throw the other, or first to successfully engage a lock. Or making the other guy give up. Just don't be that **** who is willing to break a bone, or get a bone broken, to prove a point.

But if younger through sparring and feel like the other guy didn't have a chance, you've won.



On weapons, I tend to stick to the continuum of force idea. If its a boxing match, I'm not going to kick, grab or break. If its a fist fight, I'm not going to grab a weapon. Yes, this means there are some others I will lose when I could have won. I find the concept of bein bruised badly and running away better than jail time for manslaughter.

[DarkEternal]

From my personal experience:

If you want to learn how to really, really hurt someone, and in my own personal opinion the most realistic real life system of combat that will teach you how to handle yourself on the street(but can also land you in jail because like I said, it's really about laying on the hurt), then Krav Maga. It's as lethal as it gets. Like every good Krav Maga instructor will say; "There is no bad martial art. And if you're in combat with someone who gives you time to prepare, that's great. Krav Maga is when you need to react. Immediatelly and with the maximum results. Also, no martial art is as good as a good pair of legs and a healthy pair of luns, both that can serve you to run the hell away from whatever it is".

It won't turn you into a Superman, but it will give you a good chance, and it's got pretty intense training. I've been training it for three years now, and it is good, though to be sincere I would never have the stomach to do the things they teached me there (in a normal fight. If I was under mortal threat, well...then I suppose you don't really think about anyone's safety but your own there).

BJJ is also very good, but of course, focuses mainly if you get on the ground(chances are, in real life scenarios you probably will)


If you want conditioning, good body workout and overall, again in my opinion, the most physically exhausting, look no further then Boxing. It's going to make you drenched by the end of every session. Three minutes in a ring, even as an amateur with a guy who won't hit you with any strength will make you feel like you've been through the grinder and make you feel really, really good afterwards. Of all the martial arts-sports, I really liked boxing. It is pure, it is unfiltered, and there's intelligence behind every single move that you make. It's all about the movement, about your physical condition and by using your wits. I know, when you look at some of the pro's, you'd think they are not capable of it, but trust me. Box is great. And has a real life application.


If you want to sweat it out in a more exotic way, Capoeira, Tae-Kwon Do, sports like those. Notice I said sports. They are fun, they are rhytmic, and they are engaging. But honestly, from what I have seen, in real life situations, not a single person I knew ever used anything they learned, except their own body conditioning(no high, fast kicks, or acrobatics) in real life situations. Not to say it's bad, but depending on your body type and your own wants, it depends.

Other eastern martial arts are far more "philsophical" with the exception of Judo and Aikido which can lay down the hurt just as much as the ones I mentioned upwards. Judo in particular is devastating against people that don't know what they are doing, and your own body type is not as important in it( What I mean, you can basically fling people twice your size with the techniques you learn). Still, be very careful where you go to study these systems. While I adore the philosophy of martial arts, there are too many frauds out there that will try to turn you into a "ninja" or some other nonsense while in general all they are doing is taking your money. Things like that happen in the western arts as well, but less frequently due to the "mystique" of the East. For feeling good and being able to do it anywhere, Tai Chi is okay. Karate is well known, though personally I never liked it much. I have a soft spot for Kendo because it's a style I never got the chance to try out, and I really wanted to(too far away from my home, the only dojo in my town).

[Janus]

Managed to make it to my first night of longsword on Saturday.
COOLEST FREAKING THING EVER! :smallbiggrin:

I was impressed by how much of my old kenjutsu techniques managed to transfer over. Footwork was the same (at least, I don't remember having to adjust it), and I only had to slightly alter some of my movements with the sword itself, and that was mainly to take advantage of the longsword's dual edges, length, and shape differences from the katana.

Here's a video of "freeplay" or sparring. The man in blue is the founder of the Association of Renaissance Martial Arts, the group I've joined.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNja00FNyeg

[SiuiS]

DarkEternal, no offense but a lot of that sounds like you're reiterating thoughts that may not really be accurate Anymore. There hasn't been a mystique of the east ever since they stopped calling it the Orient. Have you compared Krav Maga to Sambo? I find that natives who try these systems come out stronger than Americans who try these systems. This says to me that the style itself means a lot less than the kind of person who learns it. Killers don't learn Krav Maga because it's a dangerous art, Krav Maga is a dangerous art because it is know predominantly by killers. Krav Maga also has a sports version, by the way. They teach it at my local 24 hour fitness. You cannot judge an art off of one person who teaches it.

[Zadhadras]

I would love to be able to find a local Jogo Do Pau or Bataireacht club.

Jogo Do pau is Portuguese staff fighting. Bataireacht is irish cane fighting.

Sadly, bataireacht is apparently held somewhat in disdain in Ireland and is nearly extinct there. Fortunately, the Doyle family brought a version of it to Newfoundland when the emigrated in the mid 1800's and its been taught to family members ever since. Now the family grandmaster is teaching it to the public and the art is starting to spread.

Jogo Do pau:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSDSsereOdg

Bataireacht:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcH0ww_Jbfg

[The Succubus]

I used to do Bushido many years ago. It was a mixture of all kinds of martials, karate, aikido (which was my "specialised school" - the style I had the most lessons in) kenjitsu (I still have my katana on the wall <3) and mixed weapons fighting like the bo staff and very infrequently nunchuks.

I've been going to the gym and while it's keeping me in a passable shape (lit. not spherical) it's getting dull and I'd love to do some sparring sometime. I'm looking for a UK Tae-kwon-do group in NW London that encourages 1 on 1 sparring rather than group "repeat the moves" style of classes. Hope I find something. :smallsmile:

[DarkEternal]

DarkEternal, no offense but a lot of that sounds like you're reiterating thoughts that may not really be accurate Anymore. There hasn't been a mystique of the east ever since they stopped calling it the Orient. Have you compared Krav Maga to Sambo? I find that natives who try these systems come out stronger than Americans who try these systems. This says to me that the style itself means a lot less than the kind of person who learns it. Killers don't learn Krav Maga because it's a dangerous art, Krav Maga is a dangerous art because it is know predominantly by killers. Krav Maga also has a sports version, by the way. They teach it at my local 24 hour fitness. You cannot judge an art off of one person who teaches it.

I'm pretty sure I didn't mention Krav Maga was a martial art. If I did, it was not intentional. IT is a combat system. Plain and simple. It teaches you the most effective ways to take down an opponent and doesn't delude itself in purifying your spirit or what have you. It just teaches you how to harm someone really, really bad. And in that, in my personal experience, it has no peer. Of course it's taught in your local fitness center. I'm not saying it doesn't have it's fair share of "bad" practitioners or even exaggarated promises. Today, it's really popular because it markets itself as being "good for everyone."

Yeah, that's a load of crap. Don't get me wrong, it can be learned by everyone, but I tell you right now that a hundred pound woman with Krav Maga knowledge will get demolished by a 200 pound man. I have seen and trained with such practitioners and it simply can not be overdone with techniques you learn there. It still gives you a good chance, and honestly, when your safety is threatened, I'll take that over anything else. Will you be able to take the gun of someone that assaults you? Probably not, but there is a chance you will, in my opinion, a better chance than in any other form of combat(except like I mentioned before, running away if you can) and I don't really need more then that.

Sambo is awesome, don't get me wrong. I've seen what Fedor could do to a person in his competitions and it's(I think) the form of combat the russian police learns, and they are pretty effective. But like I said, there is no "bad" martial art, or combat style. In my opinion, at least of all of those I trained in, it's just the most effective one in an unknown surrounding where you can't count on the variables or defend yourself in an environment that will give you and your attacker equal ground.

[SiuiS]

I would love to be able to find a local Jogo Do Pau or Bataireacht club.

Jogo Do pau is Portuguese staff fighting. Bataireacht is irish cane fighting.

Sadly, bataireacht is apparently held somewhat in disdain in Ireland and is nearly extinct there. Fortunately, the Doyle family brought a version of it to Newfoundland when the emigrated in the mid 1800's and its been taught to family members ever since. Now the family grandmaster is teaching it to the public and the art is starting to spread.

Jogo Do pau:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSDSsereOdg

Bataireacht:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcH0ww_Jbfg

Aye, shillelagh is a fun one. Cane fighting of any stripe becomes a lot better when removed from the idea of fencing with a gentleman's stick. The Doyle style is also very painful without a proper shillelagh; the nobbles on a random branch are bound to puncture your palm on the rebound from a jab or a closin block, and padding drastically changes the mechanics of the lever. So get a stick you want to use frequently if you try it.


I'm pretty sure I didn't mention Krav Maga was a martial art. If I did, it was not intentional. IT is a combat system. Plain and simple.

Pure sophistry, a meaningless distinction. Martial and combat are both words relating to war and fighting; an art and a system are both defined and implemented principles. You're attaching 60s-80s baggage to a martial art in order to hang it. It's just plain not true.

Especially since I learned a lot of krav maga stuff in Kajukenbo. There are X different ways to do any one mechanical thing with the body. Pretending one art/style/system has a monopoly on the best is baseless. It's like you're saying kenjutsu is superior to Japanese sword fighting because it's more authentic. There's nothing in combat system to differentiate it from martial art except connotation and emotional connection.


It teaches you the most effective ways to take down an opponent and doesn't delude itself in purifying your spirit or what have you.

This is like saying a remedial high school math course is better because it doesn't delude itself with being an education. There is no capacity, no set arbitrary number wherein Krav Maga gets in full Arbitrary Fighting Skill units, and other schools add in Arbitrary Philosophy units to dilute their curiculum. If anything, a publicly available system for inflicting of harm that doesn't touch on morals and law is incomplete and unethical. It's all in the presentation. Your "doesn't delude" is my "incomplete and narrow". Hardly objective.



Yeah, that's a load of crap. Don't get me wrong, it can be learned by everyone, but I tell you right now that a hundred pound woman with Krav Maga knowledge will get demolished by a 200 pound man.

Of course. All things ring equal, biggest person wins. Weight can also make up for a lack of skill; most welterweight boxers are much better technicians. Toucan tell the heavy guys by how much their strategy becomes "hit the other guy, hard a lot" over thinking out their bout.


In my opinion, at least of all of those I trained in, it's just the most effective one in an unknown surrounding where you can't count on the variables or defend yourself in an environment that will give you and your attacker equal ground.

I don't understand. No martial art I've seen trains you to rely on variables around you. No fighting style requires you to count on variables or defend yourself in a known environment. What are you saying here? That you feel krav maga has a broader application?

[Kelb_Panthera]

@DarkEternal

Out of curiosity, aside from krav maga how many different styles have you intensively trained in or studied in-depth?

[Morph Bark]

Gonna call some nearby clubs tomorrow morning for some info on free lessons to get started. :smallsmile:

Also gonna have my first Krav Maga lesson on Saturday!

[SiuiS]

Gonna call some nearby clubs tomorrow morning for some info on free lessons to get started. :smallsmile:

Also gonna have my first Krav Maga lesson on Saturday!

Cool! Let us know how it goes~

[DarkEternal]

Pure sophistry, a meaningless distinction. Martial and combat are both words relating to war and fighting; an art and a system are both defined and implemented principles. You're attaching 60s-80s baggage to a martial art in order to hang it. It's just plain not true.

Especially since I learned a lot of krav maga stuff in Kajukenbo. There are X different ways to do any one mechanical thing with the body. Pretending one art/style/system has a monopoly on the best is baseless. It's like you're saying kenjutsu is superior to Japanese sword fighting because it's more authentic. There's nothing in combat system to differentiate it from martial art except connotation and emotional connection.

I'm just telling you how it's presented. It's not a martial art, but okay. If it's sophistry, let's say it is.






I don't understand. No martial art I've seen trains you to rely on variables around you. No fighting style requires you to count on variables or defend yourself in a known environment. What are you saying here? That you feel krav maga has a broader application?


Then we must have trained in differen environments. In other martial arts I've seen, it's usually in a controlled "duel" like environment. Be it a ring, a tatami, or whatever you want it. I do feel it has a broader application. Bear in mind that yes, I've said what martial arts I know and from them, I think Krav Maga does the job best. I'm not saying it's the king and sovereign of all other system, just that it did the job the best for me.


Out of curiosity, aside from krav maga how many different styles have you intensively trained in or studied in-depth?

Boxing for two years, Karate, some Tae-Kwon Do. Others like capoeira, Muay Thai, BJJ I know from second hand, from friends who are in said disciplines.

I adore boxing, like I said before and I might even put it up to equal Krav Maga in what I was looking for in a martial art. Karate was okay, but I never really got into it to be frank, while in my opinion Tae Kwon Do just sucks.

I'm sorry if this offends someone who practices it, it does something better for you than it does for me, but I just plain disliked it. It's a sport, just like Boxing, but unlike boxing, I've not seen it used to defend one's self effectively, not even once(and this is from seeing high level practitioners getting their arses kicked by a single drunk). Again, this is not me saying one system is better then the other, just that for me, some work better then others in real life situations.

[Morph Bark]

(and this is from seeing high level practitioners getting their arses kicked by a single drunk).

Clearly Drunken Boxing is best. :smalltongue:


Had my first real martial class today: aikijutsu! Kind of like aikido, but with more stuff and they use an actual belt system here for it apparently. I really liked it, especially since I got such a quick reply to my email by the teacher.

[dehro]

Carrying a weapon for protection and carrying a weapon with the intent of harming someone are very different animals.

in most of Europe, AFAIK, you're not allowed to carry a concealed weapon ever, unless you happen to be in a trade that practically requires you to have one, say law enforcement.. in most countries it's heavily regulated business and even collectors or indeed martial artists may only carry weapons to and from places (gyms), in cases or suchlike..and usually the possession of said weapons is regulated by permits without which being grandmaster of whatever-do isn't enough to keep you out of trouble.

I know for a fact that in Italy, you can get into trouble for carrying a screwdriver upon your person if it doesn't happen to be in a toolbox/toolbelt and you're not going places to work with it. say you get caught late at night with a screwdriver stuck in your belt or in the pocket of your trousers, coat or whatever.. the cops are going to think you plan to use it to do improper things to people and/or property..
they usually take a dim view on things like that.
anything with a blade or a pointy end that is being carried without clear motive (and no, self defence is not considered a valid motive) is likely to get you into trouble depending on the circumstances in which it's found upon yourself...you could of course claim that you just bought it at the shop down the road..but then they'd ask to see the receipt, which you're supposed to keep for tax reasons..and if you don't produce it, they will fine you for that, if not for the carrying of a potential weapon.
controls may not be very rigid..in fact I don't think I've ever met anyone who actually did get into trouble over carrying a screwdriver or an utility knife.. but if it ever gets to the point that you pull it out for self defense and authorities get involved, things may well turn out badly for you... to the point that you may wish you'd taken the beating instead.
P.S. swordcanes are illegal to even own, unless they're certified antiques, at least 100 years old.

[SiuiS]

Aikijutsu and aikijujutsu, I believe, are the names given to the style in its earlier days. I'm not sure what differences there would be though. Learn anything good? Are you a ninja master yet, Morph Bark? Don't forget to ask for the secrets of reading another's Qi/power level! That's thermal trick you wanna master~ :smalltongue:


in most of Europe, AFAIK, you're not allowed to carry a concealed weapon ever, unless you happen to be in a trade that practically requires you to have one, say law enforcement.. in most countries it's heavily regulated business and even collectors or indeed martial artists may only carry weapons to and from places (gyms), in cases or suchlike..and usually the possession of said weapons is regulated by permits without which being grandmaster of whatever-do isn't enough to keep you out of trouble.

I know for a fact that in Italy, you can get into trouble for carrying a screwdriver upon your person if it doesn't happen to be in a toolbox/toolbelt and you're not going places to work with it. say you get caught late at night with a screwdriver stuck in your belt or in the pocket of your trousers, coat or whatever.. the cops are going to think you plan to use it to do improper things to people and/or property..
they usually take a dim view on things like that.
anything with a blade or a pointy end that is being carried without clear motive (and no, self defence is not considered a valid motive) is likely to get you into trouble depending on the circumstances in which it's found upon yourself...you could of course claim that you just bought it at the shop down the road..but then they'd ask to see the receipt, which you're supposed to keep for tax reasons..and if you don't produce it, they will fine you for that, if not for the carrying of a potential weapon.
controls may not be very rigid..in fact I don't think I've ever met anyone who actually did get into trouble over carrying a screwdriver or an utility knife.. but if it ever gets to the point that you pull it out for self defense and authorities get involved, things may well turn out badly for you... to the point that you may wish you'd taken the beating instead.

Yep! You can get in trouble for having a roll of quarters in your pocket if younger into a fight on the way to the laundromat and the othe guy suffers head trauma. Even if you didn't use said roll of quarters.

It's unfortunate, as when you outlaw weapons only outlaws will have weapons. But such is life.

[Kelb_Panthera]

in most of Europe, AFAIK, you're not allowed to carry a concealed weapon ever, unless you happen to be in a trade that practically requires you to have one, say law enforcement.. in most countries it's heavily regulated business and even collectors or indeed martial artists may only carry weapons to and from places (gyms), in cases or suchlike..and usually the possession of said weapons is regulated by permits without which being grandmaster of whatever-do isn't enough to keep you out of trouble.

I know for a fact that in Italy, you can get into trouble for carrying a screwdriver upon your person if it doesn't happen to be in a toolbox/toolbelt and you're not going places to work with it. say you get caught late at night with a screwdriver stuck in your belt or in the pocket of your trousers, coat or whatever.. the cops are going to think you plan to use it to do improper things to people and/or property..
they usually take a dim view on things like that.
anything with a blade or a pointy end that is being carried without clear motive (and no, self defence is not considered a valid motive) is likely to get you into trouble depending on the circumstances in which it's found upon yourself...you could of course claim that you just bought it at the shop down the road..but then they'd ask to see the receipt, which you're supposed to keep for tax reasons..and if you don't produce it, they will fine you for that, if not for the carrying of a potential weapon.
controls may not be very rigid..in fact I don't think I've ever met anyone who actually did get into trouble over carrying a screwdriver or an utility knife.. but if it ever gets to the point that you pull it out for self defense and authorities get involved, things may well turn out badly for you... to the point that you may wish you'd taken the beating instead.
P.S. swordcanes are illegal to even own, unless they're certified antiques, at least 100 years old.

While I have no reason to doubt any of this, it doesn't necessarily apply everywhere (except probably the sword-cane). That's why I said to check with your local law-enforcement agency or a lawyer before deciding to carry any deadly weapon.

The statement you quoted, however was more to do with the psychological ramifications of carrying a weapon than the legal.

The only legal advice we can give on this forum without getting in trouble is "contact your local law-enforcement or a lawyer," as far as I know, so I didn't get into the specifics for any particular area.

[Morph Bark]

Aikijutsu and aikijujutsu, I believe, are the names given to the style in its earlier days. I'm not sure what differences there would be though. Learn anything good? Are you a ninja master yet, Morph Bark? Don't forget to ask for the secrets of reading another's Qi/power level! That's thermal trick you wanna master~ :smalltongue:

I LEARNED A GREAT MANY THINGS.

...mainly that I'm quite bad at rolling, because I'm still rather stiff after years of not doing any physically-exhausting sports (3 years of archery don't count).

Also, according to the wiki:

Aiki-jūjutsu is a form that can be broken into three styles: Jujutsu (hard/ soft); Aiki no Jutsu (soft); and Aikijujutsu (soft) which is the combination of the former two. Modern Japanese Jujutsu and Aikido both are styles that originate in Aikijujutsu.

The teacher approached the subject well and told me about the differences between aikijutsu and aikido (as well as aikikai, for which there is a school nearby, whereas the last aikido school was closed a few years ago) and how their school was founded years ago by the only guy with the 7th dan in aikido in the country. The guy I worked with for most the exercises was also very good as a teacher, and flexible in adapting to me and what I did well and wrong. They also use a belt system more like judo, which aikido doesn't, which she told me is because here in the West people prefer to see more gradual and clearly-defined levels of progress that are clearly shown.

All in all, it was very interesting and I'm looking forward to my second lesson.

In other news, I was unable to attend the Krav Maga lesson yesterday, because I couldn't go to sleep until 4 AM and it started at 9. :smallfrown:



It's unfortunate, as when you outlaw weapons only outlaws will have weapons. But such is life.

This is true. On the plus side though, when you outlaw weapons, there will also be fewer outlaws, because idiots are more prone to doing something criminal when they got a weapon in their hands, regardless of whether their target might also have one.

[dehro]

While I have no reason to doubt any of this, it doesn't necessarily apply everywhere (except probably the sword-cane). That's why I said to check with your local law-enforcement agency or a lawyer before deciding to carry any deadly weapon.

The statement you quoted, however was more to do with the psychological ramifications of carrying a weapon than the legal.

The only legal advice we can give on this forum without getting in trouble is "contact your local law-enforcement or a lawyer," as far as I know, so I didn't get into the specifics for any particular area.

I kept it generic by saying "most countries in Europe", and yes, better check indeed... also, common knowledge is way different than the letter of the law.
For instance, in Italy the common way of determining whether a knife was legal or not was that it's not supposed to have a blade that is longer than 4 fingers..and I've heard this said many times by different people.. which is of course total rubbish. As my granddad pointed out to me (he's dutch and a weapon instructor even to this day), 4 of my fingers are about as wide as 3 of his (he's got freakishly large hands for a short guy)..
It turns out that any blade of any shape or size may get you into various degrees of trouble, in Italy...and licences to carry a weapon don't necessarily travel well. you may buy a weapon legally in USA or Switzerland and find yourself in knee-deep horse droppings as soon as you cross the border with it.

as for the sword-cane, I learned that in England, watching the Antiques Roadshow, of all things, lol.. and I checked out that this was the case also for Italy where the law is even more stringent as to possession of one.. (you need a collectors permit or something of the kind)
I checked because, come on.. who wouldn't want to have a sword-cane if nothing else just to say you do?

[Frozen_Feet]

Martial (adj) =


1. Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
2. Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
3. Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.
(http://www.thefreedictionary.com/martial)
Art (noun) =


6.

a. A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
b. A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.
7.

a. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
b. Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: "Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice" (Joyce Carol Oates).

(http://www.thefreedictionary.com/art)

So, anything that is used, or has once been used, in a fight by soldiers, is a Martial Art. If anything, it would make more sense to exclude purely civilian or sport arts from the grouping, than it'd make to exclude Krav Maga.

[SiuiS]

Any news on the class front, mate? Or should we allow this to die?

[Frozen_Feet]

Well, as far as MA related news go, I got my green belt in Kobudo. Karate camp coming up tomorrow morning.

[Janus]

I've been sparring quite a bit with longswords, both wooden wasters and steel blunts. :smallbiggrin:
Kind of twisted my ankle the other day while doing that outside, but it's getting better.

[Zadhadras]

One thing i'd like to point out...the idea that fighting arts used in sporting aren't martial arts is modern concept imported from Asia. The traditional western view does not distinguish between sport and self defense. Wrestling was seen as a martial art, as was boxing, as was fencing. The difference was in intent..the intent to kill, the intent to win, the intent to defend oneself.

You don't need kanji and grafted on philosophies to make a martial art. Nor does your art have to be teh deadlee and for teh streetz.

[Morph Bark]

I was sadly unable to attend the last two aikijutsu practices, so I'll have to make up for it sometime (I still got one free lesson after all).

[noparlpf]

Haven't been able to get in for two weeks between the hurricane (club was cancelled) and exam week. But I've been practicing the taekwondo white belt forms. Here's (http://www.taekwondoanimals.com/taekwondo-forms.asp) a handy resource for learning taekwondo forms.

[Saskia]

Martial (adj) =

1. Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
2. Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
3. Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.

Art (noun) =

6.

a. A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
b. A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.
7.

a. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
b. Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: "Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice" (Joyce Carol Oates).

So, anything that is used, or has once been used, in a fight by soldiers, is a Martial Art. If anything, it would make more sense to exclude purely civilian or sport arts from the grouping, than it'd make to exclude Krav Maga.

That's not a very good argument. Example: Is beating your chest and grunting a "martial art"? It's something that has been done in war by soldiers resulting from intuitive, instinctive behavior. It fits your set of definitions. Is using a hostage as a shield a martial art? It's been done by soldiers and can be trained or instinctive. I guess the time-honored techniques of "testicle kick", "kidney stab" and "curb stomp" fall under "exercise of intuitive faculties" too. Does carrying a 5-D flashlight and a can of mace make me a practitioner of the martial arts? How about throwing rocks? Cooking is learned through practice, study, and observation, and if an army marches on its stomach then does that mean making lasagna is equatable with kung fu? I'm not trying to be cheeky (well, maybe a little) but that set of definitions is so broad as to be meaningless, where the term "martial arts" has a distinct set of general use definitions. It's like saying I practice "chemical warfare" when I shoot a deer because S + 3 C + 2 KNO3 → N2 + 3 CO2 + K2S. Incidentally, killing a deer with my muzzle loading rifle does absolutely and inarguably by your definition make me a martial artist because it's a definitely a practiced skill and was totally used by soldiers in a fight.

Curiously, I don't consider myself a martial artist, nor does anybody else that I know, which leads me to believe that your definition is functionally useless because only definitions upon which people agree have any communicative value. I can call my car an elephant--after all it's heavy, has a trunk, has four ground contact points, it can make a loud wailing honking noise, and it costs more than I'd like to feed, and could technically run on peanuts with an equally broad definition of what constitutes a peanut--but that doesn't mean when I ask somebody to get something from my elephant that they'll have any idea what I'm talking about.

[dehro]

only definitions upon which people agree have any communicative value.
mind you..talk about or point your definition at enough people...and you're bound to find at least a small group of them disagreeing with it..whatever the definition, whatever the subject.

[SiuiS]

That's not a very good argument. Example: Is beating your chest and grunting a "martial art"? It's something that has been done in war by soldiers resulting from intuitive, instinctive behavior. It fits your set of definitions.

It's not systematized, so no. However, beating your chest and grunting is a part of several martial arts. Being hyper literal and calling a single technique an array of techniques is silly.


is using a hostage as a shield a martial art?

It is trained for in several, yes.


I guess the time-honored techniques of "testicle kick", "kidney stab" and "curb stomp" fall under "exercise of intuitive faculties" too.

Yep. They are techniques.



Does carrying a 5-D flashlight and a can of mace make me a practitioner of the martial arts?

Not only that, but the awareness and preparedness Re part of most martial arts too!


How about throwing rocks?

Scottish martial art.


Cooking is learned through practice, study, and observation, and if an army marches on its stomach then does that mean making lasagna is equatable with kung fu?

Don't be dumb. That's like saying you're Stephen king because you write online and that's like being an author, so you must be a specific author. That's not even a logical argument.

And yes, food preparation and diet control come
Up in many martial arts.


I'm not trying to be cheeky (well, maybe a little) but that set of definitions is so broad as to be meaningless,

No it's not. You just applied a few words selectively. Use the whole definition.



Curiously, I don't consider myself a martial artist, nor does anybody else that I know, which leads me to believe that your definition is functionally useless because only definitions upon which people agree have any communicative value.

You're also not a mechanic, author, plumber, electrician, professional artist, or psychologist, but you've used all of those at one point I'm sure. Now if you were to buckle down and activel learn any one of those, you could use a title related to proficiency.

You do things which are martial you do things which are systematized. You don't do both in the proper context. that's kind of important.

[dehro]

this and following panels are relevant...kinda.. (http://ypcomic.com/2012/10/29/combat-kitchenwares/)

4 teh lulz!
Sign up to the infinite cooking dojo!

[Brother Oni]

Cooking is learned through practice, study, and observation, and if an army marches on its stomach then does that mean making lasagna is equatable with kung fu?

Technically kung fu means you're really good at something (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_fu_(term)), so if you've spent a lot of time and practice to become really good at making lasagna, you've got good kung fu. :smalltongue:

If we want to get sillier, I can find a number of martial arts movies that take the bill (there's one I remember where two guys are fighting, one using a string of sausages as a pair of nunchunks, the other using a shark's jaws as a kind of chakram).

[Frozen_Feet]

To most everything Saskia said: Yes.

Mostly you just picked invidual techniques that sound silly, but all of them are actually part of one martial art or the other. If something is "instinctive" or not is not a point against any of them, because many martial arts try to build upon instinctive reactions - notably, krav maga.

It is the very core of my point that a lot of things go into martial life, so the umbrella term of "martial arts" is actually much broader than most people think and contains a lot of things beyond punching, kicking, grappling and running away.

[Metahuman1]

I've done Taekwondo, a Mixed style called Nido Jitsu that draws form Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Judo, Ju-jitsu, Akido, Escreama, Taekwondo and Kalaripayattu, and I've done a bit of Freestyle wrestling back in school, and dabbled a lot into different forms.

Jeet Kun Do, Krav maga, Sambo, Savate, Wing Chun and Kaju Kembo are all excellent for self defense purposes. Akido and Tai Chi and Hypkido all have there own value in such situations as well.

Most forms of Kung Fu that are taught as fighting arts are excellent for picking up weapons techniques for larp or boffering.Though Northern forms are more arial and acrobatic styles typically so they look cooler when you use them. Fencing, Kendo, Long sword Fencing and Escreama all also have value there as well.

For Competition, Brizilian Ju-jitsu, Mauy Tai, Boxing, Sub-mission Wrestling, Karate, Judo, and Basic Akido and Wing Chun are all very handy. It's worth noting that that is also a mix that would not be a slouch to use in a self defense situation as well.



So, ultimatly, it depends on what you really want.

[Saskia]

It's not systematized, so no.
Organization and systemization weren't prerequisites for his definition. That's why I included that.


Being hyper literal and calling a single technique an array of techniques is silly.
I didn't call a single technique an array of techniques, and I'm taking issue with his hyperliteral definition. If you take the words "martial" and "art" and use that as the basis for what you call a "martial art" then you're not necessarily talking about the same stuff. I'm actually just suggesting that his given definition is 1) not sufficiently similar to the definition used by most people to be immediately understood without explanation, thus rendering a special term as a linguistic shorthand much less useful; and 2) I don't think he supported his position well. Unless I'm totally missing something and in the field the term does actually mean "any war- or conflict-related technique" but that just doesn't seem to be so, including by what you're saying.


[yes that stuff counts]
Well okay, that's fair enough. It's just incredibly nonintuitive because of the way people talk; even people trained to administer a good beat down when it becomes necessary, from self defense instructors to Marine corps, don't seem to consider proper use and care of handguns or rifles part of "martial arts" even though they're certainly important martial discipline.


Don't be dumb. That's like saying you're Stephen king because you write online and that's like being an author, so you must be a specific author. That's not even a logical argument.
Sure. Again that's my entire point; that was why I included it. I wanted to know exactly how far he accepted his own definition because I don't think it's a terribly meaningful one. I don't really get the feeling you and I are disagreeing here.


No it's not. You just applied a few words selectively. Use the whole definition.
Yeah. That's exactly what I did. I applied the words "martial" and "art" independently, just like Frozen Feet was suggesting should be done for the phrase's definition. You are literally telling me that I'm wrong and then saying exactly what I said, but still insisting that you disagree? What is this I don't even...

So let's narrow it down to something that's pretty big, highly systematized and by Frozen Feet's definition (because that's what I'm disputing) inarguably included in the phrase "martial arts" that most people don't seem to consider as falling under the term "martial arts". Do you consider the skill set of firearms competence, including target identification and the ability to quickly and accurately fire upon targets, to be a martial art? Does your opinion change just because I'm shooting deer or rodents instead of people? If it does, then you're not using the definition that he gave:

anything that is used, or has once been used, in a fight by soldiers, is a Martial Art.


You're also not a mechanic, author, plumber, electrician, professional artist, or psychologist, but you've used all of those at one point I'm sure. Now if you were to buckle down and activel learn any one of those, you could use a title related to proficiency.
Precisely what I said, and again I don't know what you're disagreeing with. I don't claim a title, but by his definition I could claim "martial artist" because I'm competent in the use of certain weapons of war. Sure, nobody uses a Hawken or an M1 Garand in war anymore, but by his given definition obsolescence of technology is not relevant, nor is obsolescence of technique.


You do things which are martial you do things which are systematized. You don't do both in the proper context. that's kind of important.
No, he's made it pretty clear context doesn't matter by the inclusion of the clause "or has once been used". He's talking about methodology and whether it's been used by soldiers in combat, context of the actions themselves are irrelevant as long as they have been performed in the context of military conflict.

By your definition though, what is the proper combination of system and context to make something a martial art?


To most everything Saskia said: Yes.

Mostly you just picked invidual techniques that sound silly, but all of them are actually part of one martial art or the other. If something is "instinctive" or not is not a point against any of them, because many martial arts try to build upon instinctive reactions - notably, krav maga.

It is the very core of my point that a lot of things go into martial life, so the umbrella term of "martial arts" is actually much broader than most people think and contains a lot of things beyond punching, kicking, grappling and running away.
I wasn't trying to sound silly (except kind of with lasagna :smalltongue:), I honestly wasn't sure where you drew the line, but if you don't draw a rigid line as to what constitutes a martial art then I guess it does sound silly.

I wasn't saying instinct was a point against something, either, I was asking if untrained actions count.


all of them are actually part of one martial art or the other.
See this is what's confusing me about your definition. Is the inclusion in an accepted system important for being considered a martial art, or is it just anything that has been done in the context of martial conflict?


Technically kung fu means you're really good at something (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_fu_(term)), so if you've spent a lot of time and practice to become really good at making lasagna, you've got good kung fu. :smalltongue:
That is fantastic. Also interesting.

[SiuiS]

Technically kung fu means you're really good at something (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_fu_(term)), so if you've spent a lot of time and practice to become really good at making lasagna, you've got good kung fu. :smalltongue:

If we want to get sillier, I can find a number of martial arts movies that take the bill (there's one I remember where two guys are fighting, one using a string of sausages as a pair of nunchunks, the other using a shark's jaws as a kind of chakram).

So it works like the Japanese Tokui Waza then? Neat.


I've done Taekwondo, a Mixed style called Nido Jitsu that draws form Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Judo, Ju-jitsu, Akido, Escreama, Taekwondo and Kalaripayattu, and I've done a bit of Freestyle wrestling back in school, and dabbled a lot into different forms.*

Jeet Kun Do, Krav maga, Sambo, Savate, Wing Chun and Kaju Kembo are all excellent for self defense purposes. Akido and Tai Chi and Hypkido all have there own value in such situations as well.*

Most forms of Kung Fu that are taught as fighting arts are excellent for picking up weapons techniques for larp or boffering.Though Northern forms are more arial and acrobatic styles typically so they look cooler when you use them. Fencing, Kendo, Long sword Fencing and Escreama all also have value there as well.*

For Competition, Brizilian Ju-jitsu, Mauy Tai, Boxing, Sub-mission Wrestling, Karate, Judo, and Basic Akido and Wing Chun are all very handy. It's worth noting that that is also a mix that would not be a slouch to use in a self defense situation as well.*



So, ultimatly, it depends on what you really want.

Kaju is fun.


Organization and systemization weren't prerequisites for his definition. That's why I included that.

Bullcrap. That just means you didn't bother reading what you were picking apart, and everything you've said is meaningless due to being not only uninformed, but purposefully ignorant.

Watch;



Martial (adj) =


1. Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
2. Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
3. Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.
[/URL]
Art (noun) =*



6.

a. A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
b. A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.
7.

a. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
b. Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: "Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice" (Joyce Carol Oates).





I didn't call a single technique an array of techniques, and I'm taking issue with his hyperliteral definition. If you take the words "martial" and "art" and use that as the basis for what you call a "martial art" then you're not necessarily talking about the same stuff. I'm actually just suggesting that his given definition is 1) not sufficiently similar to the definition used by most people to be immediately understood without explanation, thus rendering a special term as a linguistic shorthand much less useful; and 2) I don't think he supported his position well. Unless I'm totally missing something and in the field the term does actually mean "any war- or conflict-related technique" but that just doesn't seem to be so, including by what you're saying.

Seifukujutsu is a martial art.

[quoye]
Well okay, that's fair enough. It's just incredibly nonintuitive because of the way people talk; [/quote]

Which is why I'm going through the trouble of correcting people.


even people trained to administer a good beat down when it becomes necessary, from self defense instructors to Marine corps, don't seem to consider proper use and care of handguns or rifles part of "martial arts" even though they're certainly important martial discipline.

The military teaches martial arts. Every soldier and marine I've spoken to supplements modern army combatives training with "traditional" martial arts. Including noting that rifle techniques are similar to spear and halberd techniques. Hell, the corps even teaches a specifically martial art martial art. Trainers learn other arts specifically to bring them in to combat training, and off the books, shooting instructors use martial arts manuals including Zen Archery to help learn patience, aiming and breathing while shooting.



Yeah. That's exactly what I did. I applied the words "martial" and "art" independently, just like Frozen Feet was suggesting should be done for the phrase's definition. You are literally telling me that I'm wrong and then saying exactly what I said, but still insisting that you disagree? What is this I don't even...

Except frozen feet didn't say apply them separately.



Precisely what I said, and again I don't know what you're disagreeing with. I don't claim a title, but by his definition I could claim "martial artist" because I'm competent in the use of certain weapons of war. Sure, nobody uses a Hawken or an M1 Garand in war anymore, but by his given definition obsolescence of technology is not relevant, nor is obsolescence of technique.

At this point I'm pointing out that the definition of martial arts, and whether or not you consider yourself a martial artist, are entirely separate things, and this is irrelevant to the issue at hand. It's at best a tangential problem, but you're using it as basis for why "martial art" doesn't mean what it means.



By your definition though, what is the proper combination of system and context to make something a martial art?


Mindfulness toward what you're doing, mostly. If you punch things a lot and get good at it, you still probably know nothing about punching. If you think about it, recognize it as a technique and can hone it, it's a martial art.

Same with food prep. Or situational awareness. Or social manipulation even, provided they also meet the martial criteria.

Now, does being able to fight well in self defense make you a martial artist? Probably not, because you aren't using it in that context. Or thinking about it in that context. Or even aware it's possible in that context, as far as cooking and medical aid go.



See this is what's confusing me about your definition. Is the inclusion in an accepted system important for being considered a martial art, or is it just anything that has been done in the context of martial conflict?

Reread "art".
It doesn't have to be an "accepted" system, whatever that means, but it does have to be part of a system, no matter what level of abstraction you put it at. A single technique (kick in the balls") and an understanding of the continuum of force counts, because you're using a system for when fighting is and is not really acceptable. "Don't hit girls" is a holdover from prior times and a stricture of the gentleman's art of fisticuffs, that being the acknowledgement that you can beat the snot out of a fellow testosteroner, but not a wimmen or a chil'. It's an amateur martial art.

And none of this conflicts with Frozen Feet's definitions at all. I'm testy because you seemingly ignored the definition, in an attempt to pick apart the definition.

[Saskia]

Bullcrap. That just means you didn't bother reading what you were picking apart, and everything you've said is meaningless due to being not only uninformed, but purposefully ignorant.
Dude what the hell? I can't say I know why you're being a ****, but

a. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
b. Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties
It doesn't have to be organized or systematized by those two definitions of "art", and

1. Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
2. Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
3. Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.
doesn't necessitate organized or systematic training. Peasant armies were a thing in the past, and untrained and poorly trained soldiers exist today so none of the definitions of martial actually do any more than loosely suggest organization based on cultural biases.


Seifukujutsu is a martial art.
Declarative statements are not arguments, nor are they sets of rules. Just because X or Y is a martial art does not 1) explain your definition of martial art, or 2) explain why it falls under that heading.


Which is why I'm going through the trouble of correcting people.
Okay, but why are you saying incorrect things like "[a] skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties" requires organization or systemization, and why are you being a **** about it?


The military teaches martial arts. Every soldier and marine I've spoken to supplements modern army combatives training with "traditional" martial arts. Including noting that rifle techniques are similar to spear and halberd techniques. Hell, the corps even teaches a specifically martial art martial art. Trainers learn other arts specifically to bring them in to combat training, and off the books, shooting instructors use martial arts manuals including Zen Archery to help learn patience, aiming and breathing while shooting.
This is irrelevant. I didn't say that military organizations don't teach martial arts, nor did I so much as give it a shy smile from across the library. I was trying to figure how he defined martial arts in the first place because I've never heard a definition so broad and don't know how such a broad definition can be useful.


Except frozen feet didn't say apply them separately.
I didn't.


At this point I'm pointing out that the definition of martial arts, and whether or not you consider yourself a martial artist, are entirely separate things, and this is irrelevant to the issue at hand. It's at best a tangential problem, but you're using it as basis for why "martial art" doesn't mean what it means.
If "the point" was the West Indies then you could call yourself Magellan for this gem. It was a tangent illustrative of why I don't think it applies. It was not a stand-alone argument. It was a derived argument from the fact that most people don't consider the skills of hunting as "martial arts" even though they apply by his definition (again, "ANYTHING done by soldiers in a fight").


Mindfulness toward what you're doing, mostly. If you punch things a lot and get good at it, you still probably know nothing about punching. If you think about it, recognize it as a technique and can hone it, it's a martial art.
Better, but still vague. I guess I can take this as your written refusal to answer whether hunting falls under your definition of a martial art. I swear it's like you think I'm trying to catch you in some stupid verbal trap rather than just get a straight answer.


Same with food prep. Or situational awareness. Or social manipulation even, provided they also meet the martial criteria.

Don't be dumb. That's like saying you're Stephen king because you write online and that's like being an author, so you must be a specific author. That's not even a logical argument.
So, it's stupid to ask if making lasagna could be a martial art, but food preparation could be a martial art? Logic much?


Now, does being able to fight well in self defense make you a martial artist? Probably not, because you aren't using it in that context. Or thinking about it in that context. Or even aware it's possible in that context, as far as cooking and medical aid go.
Again, you refuse to offer what you consider "martial context" and only further obfuscate the issue by saying self defense isn't necessarily martial art, but making lasagna might be even though you said that was a dumb question? Dude seriously? Are you even reading your own **** here?


Reread "art".
It doesn't have to be an "accepted" system, whatever that means, but it does have to be part of a system, no matter what level of abstraction you put it at. A single technique (kick in the balls") and an understanding of the continuum of force counts, because you're using a system for when fighting is and is not really acceptable. "Don't hit girls" is a holdover from prior times and a stricture of the gentleman's art of fisticuffs, that being the acknowledgement that you can beat the snot out of a fellow testosteroner, but not a wimmen or a chil'. It's an amateur martial art.

s not systematized
Okay, so you've just redefined "system" to mean "anything that can be reasonably defended". But beating your chest and grunting is, was, and has been used as an intimidation tactic, because animalistic noises disturb people and displays of instinctive behaviors suggestive of violence can make people unwilling to take chances. I don't see how a nut kick and chest pounding are functionally different, except that one is definitely not systematized according to you. So congratulations, we're back to square one with definitions so broad they might as well not exist.


I'm testy because you seemingly ignored the definition, in an attempt to pick apart the definition.
No, I didn't. That would be what you're doing with everything I said.

[B]anything that is used, or has once been used, in a fight by soldiers, is a Martial Art.
This should not be this difficult and there's no excuse for being mean about it. You're testy because you read too much into what I said and started making baseless assumptions, and now you're trying to tell me that your assumptions are actually my motivations, and obfuscating your own points and flatly contradicting yourself (again, asking if lasagna making could be a martial art is stupid, but food preparation could be a martial art).

[noparlpf]

Teebagging is a martial art. It's a highly structured practice used almost exclusively by (imaginary digital) warriors.

[Renegade Paladin]

I practice Western martial arts, both armed and unarmed. Heavy rapier is my specialty, but I've also learned the basics of quarterstaff, longsword (bastard sword if you're playing D&D; the game has weapon terms slightly messed up), and Renaissance-era German wrestling. For self-defense, these have the advantage of not having been actively stripped of their most effective components over decades of being hyped as an exercise and discipline method, but at least the armed ones have the drawback of it being socially unacceptable to cart around a sword. :smalltongue:

[Janus]

I practice Western martial arts, both armed and unarmed. Heavy rapier is my specialty, but I've also learned the basics of quarterstaff, longsword (bastard sword if you're playing D&D; the game has weapon terms slightly messed up), and Renaissance-era German wrestling. For self-defense, these have the advantage of not having been actively stripped of their most effective components over decades of being hyped as an exercise and discipline method, but at least the armed ones have the drawback of it being socially unacceptable to cart around a sword. :smalltongue:
You doing this on your own, or did you join a group like ARMA?

[SiuiS]

what the hell? I can't say I know why you're being a ****, but

I am*Curious why using the word 'bullcrap' makes me a four-asterisk, but what can reasonably be seen as you ignoring a forest for the trees, twice, is perfectly fine? I'm not trying to be a whatever that word was. I am being brusque. Partly because, again, you're ignoring several posts of context. It's akin to picking a sentence and ignoring the paragraph. Everything I've said makes sense in light of everything else I've said. If you cut it off from the supply line and try to hold it up as a lone, sturdy argument, yes it will look dumb.


It doesn't have to be organized or systematized by those two definitions of "art", and

This is what I meant about picking the definition apart. All of those apply. I'm specifically trying not to be technical, because it can only exclude rather than include.



Declarative statements are not arguments, nor are they sets of rules. Just because X or Y is a martial art does not 1) explain your definition of martial art, or 2) explain why it falls under that heading.

I expect you, based on prior examples, to be smart enough to look up what seifukujujutsu is, and understand my point from there (or at least argue more cogently). If I had to resupply a fact every post, we wouldn't get anywhere.

Seifukujutsu is a thing which is a martial art. The explanation of what it is will also explain why it can easily be considered a martial art. Looking at similar, "non-martial" systems can lead you to understand why they can or cannot be considered a martial art.

And be reasonable, if I can't trust you to take a definition, why wouldn't I expect a word trap? I'm not going to bother explaining in greater and greater refinement as you ask more and more probing questions to disprove my stance, when readily available information can do a much better job than I of saying the same thing. It puts me on the pure defensive, which makes it look like your side has more legitimacy. So I will also focus on debunking the (in my opinion) flawed basis of your arguments, which would seemingly serve to point out why I needn't defend myself from those arguments.



Okay, but why are you saying incorrect things like "[a] skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties" requires organization or systemization, and why are you being a **** about it?

Part one, because that isn't the sum total of what an art is. And a martial art is more than the mere sum total of martial and art, there is interplay. Your adding [a] changes the definition. Skill is not a skill; one is a quantified, the other is a discrete technique. So I am saying skill arising from
Use of intuitive faculties (ie proficiency) applies, where a skill arising... (ie a single technique) does not.

Almost didn't catch that. That may be where the root of disagreement comes from, actually. I would, in other circumstances, view a subtle change of definition such as this in a malicious light. I believe you just read it differently, however?

Part two, already answered, or at least intimated.



This is irrelevant. I didn't say that military organizations don't teach martial arts, nor did I so much as give it a shy smile from across the library.

Actually, you did, sort of, in your assumption that martial artists make a martial art.


even people trained to administer a good beat down when it becomes necessary, from self defense instructors to Marine corps, don't seem to consider proper use and care of handguns or rifles part of "martial arts" even though they're certainly important martial discipline.

You'll note my original response to this was that, yes, not only do many layfolk consider soldiers martial artists, but many soldiers consider themselves martial artists, or at the very least acknowledge that they are learning martial arts.



I didn't.


Yes, you did. See?


Yeah. That's exactly what I did. I applied the words "martial" and "art" independently, just like Frozen Feet was suggesting

Or is applying the words independent of each other somehow now not applying them separately? I may have misunderstood, but is out you misspoke.



If "the point" was the West Indies then you could call yourself Magellan for this gem. It was a tangent illustrative of why I don't think it applies. It was not a stand-alone argument. It was a derived argument from the fact that most people don't consider the skills of hunting as "martial arts" even though they apply by his definition (again, "ANYTHING done by soldiers in a fight").

Well, we could be facetious and say soldiers don't hunt during a fight. That's overly coy, though, and I'm sure the se of hunting to mean search and acquire has made it into the dictionary.

So I will say that I have already answered this. And in the spirit of clarity I'll answer again;
Hunting with a gun is an activity which can be comprised of martial skills, but is not a martial art by the definitions listed because it is not a war-time or martial effort, most people have no mindfulness of it as a system or as a skill arising from the intuitive use of faculties. But gun use is and can be a martial art. This does not make the use of a martial art for something else (in this instance, the use of gun skill to bring down food as opposed to martial-ing) transfer its martial art-ness to that 'something else'1. Just as a groin kick is part of an art but not an art itself (unless you enjoy the aesthetics, I suppose), so too does hunting include martial arts while not itself being a martial art.

A hunter wouldn't consider hirself a martial artist because they aren't martial-ing with their art.



Better, but still vague. I guess I can take this as your written refusal to answer whether hunting falls under your definition of a martial art.

I didn't want to repeat the entire thing again, as most of what I said prior to that point answers your question. I feel it's dissengenuous to ignore all of my stated point up until then simply because it was not all said specifically to answer a question.

I feel this is a good point to edit in that martial art and combat system were synonymous enough that I find ye distinction between them meaningless. It breaks the flow of conversation but I should give you my weak points as well as my strong, yes? All the facts, and such.


I swear it's like you think I'm trying to catch you in some stupid verbal trap rather than just get a straight answer.

That was my assumption, yes.



So, it's stupid to ask if making lasagna could be a martial art, but food preparation could be a martial art? Logic much?

Your ad hominims are cute but wearying. Please stop.

Now, reread that. I said making lasagna doesn't make you a martial artist because being a chef does not make you a martial artist, it makes you a chef.

Making lasagna is simply cooking. If you meet the qualifications, it can be gōngfu, but gōngfu is not martial arts. If you are making lasagna as part of cooking for a martial effort, then it's user the martial arts umbrella. These are two different things, akin to questions of justification.

Possibly pointless example
people are often asked things like this;

"Is killing someone bad?"
> yes.
"What if they deserve it, theyre like child molesting rapist serial murderers?"
> that would be okay.
"But isn't it bad because killing is bad?"
> uh....

This is sophistry. Killing is bad. Killing someone who deserves it is not merely killing, it is killing someone who deserves it, a separate thing to be weighed on its own merits.

"Is cooking a martial art?"
> no.
"What if you're feeing an army following an intuitive and systematized set of practices?"

Does not somehow disprove the first answer. Cooking is presented as a non contextual – meaning lacking all context, including that necessary to make it a martial art – action taken. Given context, it is no lingerie merely cooking, so ye first answer must be discounted.

This sort of verbal trap is what I believe you have tried to do, whether knowingly or not. Not as an accusation, mind.



Again, you refuse to offer what you consider "martial context" and only further obfuscate the issue by saying self defense isn't necessarily martial art, but making lasagna might be even though you said that was a dumb question? Dude seriously? Are you even reading your own **** here?

That is actually not what I said.
I believe the definition of martial upon which we all mostly agree for purposes of this discussion already handles the "supply proper context" issue, so saying I have failed to supply you what you already have is Pointlessly antagonistic, and without purpose.

Self defense is defending yourself. This could be fainting, pissing yourself, attacking your aggressor, fleeing. Note that success rate has nothing to do with the definition, by the by. Now, pissing yourself is not a martial art. Running is not a martial art. Attacking your aggressor is not necesarily a martial art, although the specifics of how you attack your aggressor come in to play. So it is easy to see that defending yourself, sans context, is not a martial art.

Self defense is not always martial arts.
Martial arts can still be self defense.

I believe I have already covered the misconception of the lasagna, and so can discount that part of this paragraph? As an honest question, not snark.



Okay, so you've just redefined "system" to mean "anything that can be reasonably defended".

I have not, nor was it my intention to do so. How do you get that from what I said? I can't see it, so I can't meaningfully answer this.


But beating your chest and grunting is, was, and has been used as an intimidation tactic, because animalistic noises disturb people and displays of instinctive behaviors suggestive of violence can make people unwilling to take chances. I don't see how a nut kick and chest pounding are functionally different, except that one is definitely not systematized according to you.

You misunderstand. Those are not martial arts. Neither is systematized. They can be included in an art (which I've said twice before) but are not martial arts unto themselves.

If you watch King of the Hill, screaming "THAT'S MY PURSE" kicking someone in the groin, and running is an art, possibly a martial art. But again, we are adding both context and systemization in our clarification.


So congratulations, we're back to square one with definitions so broad they might as well not exist.

Your asserting this does not make it true.



This should not be this difficult and there's no excuse for being mean about it. You're testy because you read too much into what I said and started making baseless assumptions, and now you're trying to tell me that your assumptions are actually my motivations, and obfuscating your own points and flatly contradicting yourself (again, asking if lasagna making could be a martial art is stupid, but food preparation could be a martial art).

I can only surmise that by cherry picking a definition such as to render it meaningless, that you intended to do so, yes. That's how most human interaction works. What you do, and how it perceived. As I am fond of pointing out, one of the definitions of temperature is entropy within a system and how it is affected by additional energy input; adhering to this definition to make people who talk about degrees seem wrong is just being rude on my part, however, and doesn't actually disprove or prove anything about temperature.

I trust we have Sussed out how non-contradictory those contradictions are now, yes?


Teebagging is a martial art. It's a highly structured practice used almost exclusively by (imaginary digital) warriors.

Hm. Pretty difficult to argue, except I find video games aren't quite martial. Separation by degrees – a war game is not a war, just as a chef is not a plumber.

[noparlpf]

Hm. Pretty difficult to argue, except I find video games aren't quite martial. Separation by degrees – a war game is not a war, just as a chef is not a plumber.

Some LARPers practice it IRL.

[Brother Oni]

So it works like the Japanese Tokui Waza then? Neat.

As I understand the term, they have the same end result (something you're very good at), but different meanings. Kung fu in this context can be essentially translated as 'skill', or more accurately 'skill obtained through hard effort and constant practice'.
Tokui Waza seems to be 'best' or 'favourite' martial technique.

I'll double check with my wife to see if she's familiar with the term.

[SiuiS]

Some LARPers practice it IRL.

LARPing is also not war, and not even really practice until you ye into the upper echelons. Maybe not even then, but the understanding of positioning, physics and such makes me hesitant to say a champion with a stick couldn't put the hurt on someone.

And if someone tried to teabag me at a meet, I would make them a eunuch. With my teeth if they're lucky.


As I understand the term, they have the same end result (something you're very good at), but different meanings. Kung fu in this context can be essentially translated as 'skill', or more accurately 'skill obtained through hard effort and constant practice'.
Tokui Waza seems to be 'best' or 'favourite' martial technique.

I'll double check with my wife to see if she's familiar with the term.

hmm. Waza is used casually (by sword students at least) to mean skill or technique, in the same way an artist has a particular style, students of the same tradition practice the same Waza. Tokui Waza being a skill one is especially good at (I will admit I came across the term first in a card game, as something you declare for a benefit in a monocolor - or single style - deck). Kung fu is a skill you are especially good, or a leat practiced, at.

I couldn't tell you if this was anything more than poor English grasping and the ineffable though.

[Morph Bark]

And if someone tried to teabag me at a meet, I would make them a eunuch. With my teeth if they're lucky.

This is why the smart ones only do it to unconscious opponents. Or with their pants on. :smalltongue:


Anyway, I've never heard of this "Tokui Waza" term. What does it entail?

[SiuiS]

This is why the smart ones only do it to unconscious opponents. Or with their pants on. :smalltongue:

I would like to think anything short of ballistic denim would reasonably fold or rend at the appropriate time. But who knows? Finger strength has always been a self-supposed weak point of mine.


Anyway, I've never heard of this "Tokui Waza" term. What does it entail?

Difficult to find. This is the best I've found;


Tokui waza means roughly favorite or special technique

It looks like I made the same mistake as I've caught others doing, narrowing in on the specific meaning of the individual words without so much acknowledgement of the use and combined meanings.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Teebagging is a martial art. It's a highly structured practice used almost exclusively by (imaginary digital) warriors.

Teabagging is a marital art that found its way onto the digital battlefield (it's rather sternly frowned upon on the real battlefield for a plethora of reasons)

does anyone arguing definitions care that "martial art" has its own entry in the dictionary, seperate from both martial and art? It's a bit of a narrow definition (it specifies oriental origin, which doesn't necessarily hold in most martial arts communities), but it's still a definition for the phrase, independent of its component parts.

[karak]

I instruct Kenpo currently as well as a couple self defense courses. I would say of all those I have studied Kenpo is probably my favorite as well, followed by loose jeet kune do. Boxing is also great for cardio and I enjoy the limitations that requires(no kicks and such)

[SiuiS]

does anyone arguing definitions care that "martial art" has its own entry in the dictionary, seperate from both martial and art? It's a bit of a narrow definition (it specifies oriental origin, which doesn't necessarily hold in most martial arts communities), but it's still a definition for the phrase, independent of its component parts.

The definition is colloquial at best, incomplete at worst. If we acknowledge it as strictly colloquial, then it's useless for non-colloquial application, and if we acknowledge it as incomplete then we are back where we started.


I instruct Kenpo currently as well as a couple self defense courses. I would say of all those I have studied Kenpo is probably my favorite as well, followed by loose jeet kune do. Boxing is also great for cardio and I enjoy the limitations that requires(no kicks and such)

Good stuff. For cardio, I've heard you should begin exercises with your mouth piece in. Any thoughts?

[dehro]

the very fact that there are and have been hunderds of different martial arts and styles should suggest that there isn't one single and agreed upon definition of martial arts... so why bother trying to find one?

[Morph Bark]

Clearly the solution is to learn all of them, then go to the people who create the Oxford Dictionary of English, give them a performance of all it and ask what they call that!

[SiuiS]

the very fact that there are and have been hunderds of different martial arts and styles should suggest that there isn't one single and agreed upon definition of martial arts... so why bother trying to find one?

Because whether or not every world culture has developed a martial art has no Beaton on the definition. There being hundreds of arts doesn't mean there isn't an agreed upon definition at all. That we are disagreeing is entirely coincidental.


Clearly the solution is to learn all of them, then go to the people who create the Oxford Dictionary of English, give them a performance of all it and ask what they call that!

"Painful", I would imagine?

[dehro]

Because whether or not every world culture has developed a martial art has no Beaton on the definition. There being hundreds of arts doesn't mean there isn't an agreed upon definition at all. That we are disagreeing is entirely coincidental.


I disagree :smallbiggrin:

wax on..
The way I see it, most variations of martial arts were borne out of people thinking "he's doing it wrong".. and that, in turn, is a thought that starts by the consideration that whatever it is that "he's doing wrong" doesn't include this or that, or should include this or that
.. and the "this or that" may be anything from singing the national anthem to bowing to the flag, from bowing to your opponent to taking a deck-chair to his face or praying the spirits for protection, from playing a berimbau to learning physiotherapy and anatomy or meditation techniques... in other words, radical rethinking of purpose, form, style, phylosophy etc etc.. and these can be grouped under an identical definition of martial arts only if you go as broad as "pretty much everything which can potentially put you in hospital"..which is very zen, maybe, but also rather silly.

.. wax off

[Morph Bark]

"Painful", I would imagine?

Martial art: a system of techniques and practices used primarily in fight-like situations to inflict pain on others or prevent pain on oneself (and by extension, the ones one might be protecting) through application of specific kinds of body movements. Some systems may include additional practices to support this, or include a moral philosophy.


Good enough? :smalltongue:

[Worira]

Should be damage rather than pain, but otherwise looks good.

[noparlpf]

Should be damage rather than pain, but otherwise looks good.

The psychological effect of pain on a human is remarkable. I'm pretty sure I've heard of martial arts that attempt to subdue via pain rather than actual damage.

[Worira]

Sure, and they're notoriously unreliable. Pain cannot guarantee compliance or victory in a fight without the ability to physically disable an attacker, whether by structural damage or control of their range of motion.

[rakkoon]

Yeah, relying on pain can be very frustrating when sparring with some opponents. My weirdest comment just before trying my techniques was from an American marine who said "Go on, you can hurt me, my father used to beat me".
Feels very strange practising on someone like that.

Now his friend had a very dark coloured skin and was raised in Japan.
He kept using Japanese swear words, which is also unexpected coming from someone with that skin colour.

Sorry, wandered from the subject for a moment :smallredface:

[Morph Bark]

That reminds me that it would be very handy to recognize which techniques inflict pain, but don't necessarily inflict a lot of damage. This would not only help in picking what techniques to use against others (whether in lethal situations or ones you just want to dismantle, such as with simple bullies), but also help you recognize when you're stuck in a hold that just inflicts pain and not damage. If you've had training to ignore pain, or at least are capable of ignoring it for just a moment, you could catch an opponent really off guard with that, I imagine.

[noparlpf]

Yeah, could help. I have a fairly high pain tolerance (I later found out that surgery for ingrown toenails supposedly requires proper tools, local anaesthesia, and an MD, none of which I used) as long as I'm expecting the pain.

[Morph Bark]

My tolerance for pain is so low that if I had gotten into fights as a kid more often then no doubt the most exercises muscles in my body would've been the respiratory muscles. :smalltongue:

Must be good for something though. Loud noises scare off at least half the predators.

[Frozen_Feet]

Sure, and they're notoriously unreliable. Pain cannot guarantee compliance or victory in a fight without the ability to physically disable an attacker, whether by structural damage or control of their range of motion.

So true. They usually fail when the target is inebriated, and then we get these damn mutants with over-flexible joints or dull pain receptors. It's funny trying to practice pressure point techniques when you suddenly get a partner who doesn't have those points.

That said, I've found pressing your opponent's eyes or nose tends to work nearly always. It's also non-damaging - people instinctively pull their head back.

Note: pressing, not punching or stabbing. To keep the technique undamaging, the key is to press slowly - feels nasty, is 100% safe.

[bindin garoth]

............

I somehow missed this thread until just now!

I've trained mainly in Kenpo, although it's been a while since I practiced. I'm hoping to get back into it once things settle for me.

Pressing on the eye and nose sound like they would work well, although I prefer going for the throat (being a point of center balance, they're force to go wherever you guide them). Note, the point wouldn't be to hit them there, just to simply grab/push against it.

Especially effective when you plant your knee inside their knee, although you'd be turning it into a hip throw then most likely...

[SiuiS]

I disagree :smallbiggrin:

wax on..
The way I see it, most variations of martial arts were borne out of people thinking "he's doing it wrong".. and that, in turn, is a thought that starts by the consideration that whatever it is that "he's doing wrong" doesn't include this or that, or should include this or that
.. and the "this or that" may be anything from singing the national anthem to bowing to the flag, from bowing to your opponent to taking a deck-chair to his face or praying the spirits for protection, from playing a berimbau to learning physiotherapy and anatomy or meditation techniques... in other words, radical rethinking of purpose, form, style, phylosophy etc etc.. and these can be grouped under an identical definition of martial arts only if you go as broad as "pretty much everything which can potentially put you in hospital"..which is very zen, maybe, but also rather silly.

.. wax off

See, that all makes some sense, hueristically, as to why there are so many martial arts.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with the definition of what a martial art is.


Sure, and they're notoriously unreliable. Pain cannot guarantee compliance or victory in a fight without the ability to physically disable an attacker, whether by structural damage or control of their range of motion.

Aye, structural trauma is the way to go. Well, "way to go", as then you're responsible for causing structural trauma.


So true. They usually fail when the target is inebriated, and then we get these damn mutants with over-flexible joints or dull pain receptors. It's funny trying to practice pressure point techniques when you suddenly get a partner who doesn't have those points.

That said, I've found pressing your opponent's eyes or nose tends to work nearly always. It's also non-damaging - people instinctively pull their head back.

Note: pressing, not punching or stabbing. To keep the technique undamaging, the key is to press slowly - feels nasty, is 100% safe.

Bridge of the nose causes eyes to water, and between the bottom of the nose and top lip is a clustery spot that causes similar reaction. Plus covering the nose makes nose breathers panic XD

Eyes? Eyes are nasty.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That reminds me that it would be very handy to recognize which techniques inflict pain, but don't necessarily inflict a lot of damage. This would not only help in picking what techniques to use against others (whether in lethal situations or ones you just want to dismantle, such as with simple bullies), but also help you recognize when you're stuck in a hold that just inflicts pain and not damage. If you've had training to ignore pain, or at least are capable of ignoring it for just a moment, you could catch an opponent really off guard with that, I imagine.

Determining which techinques cause pain VS which cause structural damage requires at least a modicum of knowledge of human anatomy. Even with very minimal combat training a doctor could do horrible, horrible things to you with relatively little effort, if he can keep his wits about him well enough to employ his anatomic knowledge. This goes triple for neurologists, and any kind of physical therapist.

There are any number of books on the subject of anatomy as it relates to combat that you could pick up. They're interesting reads, besides, if you have any curiosity about the human body.

As a general rule of thumb though, small-joint locks are what you want for maximum pain and minimal damage, right up until you actually cause tearing and/or dislocation.

[SiuiS]

Determining which techinques cause pain VS which cause structural damage requires at least a modicum of knowledge of human anatomy. Even with very minimal combat training a doctor could do horrible, horrible things to you with relatively little effort, if he can keep his wits about him well enough to employ his anatomic knowledge. This goes triple for neurologists, and any kind of physical therapist.

There are any number of books on the subject of anatomy as it relates to combat that you could pick up. They're interesting reads, besides, if you have any curiosity about the human body.

As a general rule of thumb though, small-joint locks are what you want for maximum pain and minimal damage, right up until you actually cause tearing and/or dislocation.

Right up to is right. I've got a trick right thumb from an over zealous game of thumb war in high school.


... Sweet Celestia I'm a physical mess :smalleek:

[Traab]

I have always been a defensive fighter. I prefer, when I get into a fight, to let my opponent make the first move, then use it to beat them. For example, deflecting a punch so he is open to a counter, catching a kick so I can put him off balance or twist an ankle, that sort of thing. Because of that, I have always thought that if I were to pick up a style, it would be aikido, since from what I have learned, it is mainly about using your opponents moves against him and things of that nature. Is there another style out there that better fits my personal fighting style I should keep my eyes peeled for?

[Wyntonian]

I have always been a defensive fighter. I prefer, when I get into a fight, to let my opponent make the first move, then use it to beat them. For example, deflecting a punch so he is open to a counter, catching a kick so I can put him off balance or twist an ankle, that sort of thing. Because of that, I have always thought that if I were to pick up a style, it would be aikido, since from what I have learned, it is mainly about using your opponents moves against him and things of that nature. Is there another style out there that better fits my personal fighting style I should keep my eyes peeled for?

I do aikido, and I fight pretty similarly. It's a huge help, and I'd recommend it.

That said, I'm not entirely above headbutting someone in the nose if it'll stop a fight quicker.

[Traab]

I do aikido, and I fight pretty similarly. It's a huge help, and I'd recommend it.

That said, I'm not entirely above headbutting someone in the nose if it'll stop a fight quicker.

Too be honest, the main thing that has stopped me from trying to learn a martial art is the fact that while I was in school I fought a LOT of "martial artists." Mainly karate and tae kwon do, and generally speaking, its embarrassing how quickly a 12 year old loses a fight when he tries to pull off some fancy move only to realize, yeah, he doesnt have the speed to do that sort of thing without getting his butt kicked yet. I dont want to be one of those guys who gets into a fight, tries to bust out a move, and gets to kiss the pavement because while they work well in spars and training, they dont work well in a fight against some brawler.

[Wyntonian]

Too be honest, the main thing that has stopped me from trying to learn a martial art is the fact that while I was in school I fought a LOT of "martial artists." Mainly karate and tae kwon do, and generally speaking, its embarrassing how quickly a 12 year old loses a fight when he tries to pull off some fancy move only to realize, yeah, he doesnt have the speed to do that sort of thing without getting his butt kicked yet. I dont want to be one of those guys who gets into a fight, tries to bust out a move, and gets to kiss the pavement because while they work well in spars and training, they dont work well in a fight against some brawler.

I know, if I ever tried to do the exact moves I use in the dojo in a way that wouldn't make my sensei facetatami, I'd get demolished. But the concepts, learning how to read where someone's going to go, how to move quickly and smoothly, what joints are tender and how to calm the hell down when you need to.

That, mixed with enough boxing and kick-stuff-fu to not embarrass myself, and I can successfully fight off most people half my size.

[Story Time]

I dont want to be one of those guys who gets into a fight, tries to bust out a move, and gets to kiss the pavement because while they work well in spars and training, they dont work well in a fight against some brawler.

...quoted because it's the truth and worth reading again. All that fancy potential stuff is great for exercise. But really shouldn't be used in the street.

[dehro]

Too be honest, the main thing that has stopped me from trying to learn a martial art is the fact that while I was in school I fought a LOT of "martial artists." Mainly karate and tae kwon do, and generally speaking, its embarrassing how quickly a 12 year old loses a fight when he tries to pull off some fancy move only to realize, yeah, he doesnt have the speed to do that sort of thing without getting his butt kicked yet.

any 12 year old doing any kind of martial arts believes himself to be Bruce Lee reincarnated....it's kind of part of the mystique and most martial artists who started out young will have to admit to a similar frame of mind at some stage in their life... then they get into their first couple of fights and learn some sense (also, put on some weight and develop some actual muscle power..)

I've practiced Kung Fu and Tae Kwon do for a number of years, during high school.. tried to pick it up later but life kind of got in the way
During those years I've learned the basics, a few fancy moves that are never to be used away from a padded environment unless you've actually practiced away from a somewhat padded environment (and I had not)... but most importantly, I've learned the mystique art of
How-Not-To-Get-Into-A-Fight-Do
In other words, common sense, worldwide travel experience, a healthy dose of cynicism and those basic instincts developed through martial arts have taught me when to walk away, when to avoid confrontation, what path to walk down on on a dark night in a strange neighbourhood, what the quickest ways are to arm myself with something useful for self defence, what situations not to get into, how to steer conversations away from a fist-fight and how to make the other guy believe that getting in a fight with me really is not the smartest move he'll ever make.
So far, I've only been unable to avoid a fight on 2 occasions, after my formative years, and I came out on top in those..so I'd say I'm doing rather well.
I do like to think that whatever little I learned in my martial arts training has to do with the mindframe that gets me out of hairy situations when I stumble in one and with how I approach "reading" the people I interact with..whether that makes me a martial artist of sorts or not, I don't know.
probably not.

[SiuiS]

Aye. I think the biggest thing I've learned is getting hit sucks and I don't want to do it. I think a good martial arts class will beat the Bruce Lee out of you, honestly. Well, if it's oriented for actual use.

Personally I just want to get into something simple, calm and entirely non-combative. Like shintaido.

[TheFallenOne]

You'll learn which moves you actually can pull off against a resisting enemy if your training includes free sparring instead of just practicing those 'fancy moves' against someone who mostly cooperates. About 1/4 of our Jujutsu sessions is ground randori, and of the dozens more or less fancy moves we learned I used rather few in there(granted, a good number assume you are standing instead of on the ground). I usually just go for the throat, and I'm at a point where I can reliably choke someone with a bit less experience with no way for them to get out of the hold. Quite useful I think, as I surmise street thugs are more likely to train a martial art focused on kicking/punching than wrestling.

I'm still rather novice, so I still need to get to the point where I can use most moves against someone who really doesn't want me to. Most things I do are improvised and less than ideal. Though I wish I could replicate that joint lock where I used just my legs.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Too be honest, the main thing that has stopped me from trying to learn a martial art is the fact that while I was in school I fought a LOT of "martial artists." Mainly karate and tae kwon do, and generally speaking, its embarrassing how quickly a 12 year old loses a fight when he tries to pull off some fancy move only to realize, yeah, he doesnt have the speed to do that sort of thing without getting his butt kicked yet. I dont want to be one of those guys who gets into a fight, tries to bust out a move, and gets to kiss the pavement because while they work well in spars and training, they dont work well in a fight against some brawler.

If you want to avoid that, the best styles are the styles designed or redesigned for use in combat and bloodsport.

Someone mentioned krav maga earlier, that's a brutally efficient style which concerns itself only with taking the enemy out as quickly and efficiently as possible.

In a similar vein, muay thai or thai kickboxing (two names for the same style) is also brutal and efficient with flair only showing up in the advanced portions of the style. The basics are all about hitting hard and fast with your hands, shins, knees, and elbows; while preventing your opponent from doing the same. (yes, conditioning the shins hurts like the devil for a fair while, at first; but once you get used to it, it's like having a baseball bat attached to your knee.)

It's a bit tough to find a teacher, but most styles of ninjutsu are also built around the idea of quickly and efficiently taking enemies out of a fight. It's also generally coupled with teachings about how to read opponents and avoid notice, moreso than most styles; though all responsible teachers, in any style, will teach you the importance of avoiding a physical conflict if at all possible and a few basic means of trying to diffuse a situation before it escalates to combat.

Even western boxing can really shine in a street fight if you supplement it with at least some counter-grappling techniques from a style like jiu-jitsu or judo.

Btw, here's a dirty little secret that most traditionalist martial artists don't like to admit: there's no such thing as a single style that's good for all situations. Becoming a complete, well-rounded fighter requires at least some cross-training.

Oh, and someone said something about pain. Yes, training in the martial arts as they pertain to actual combat hurts. As long as proper safety is observed it rarely leads to injury, but it almost always hurts a bit if there's free-sparring, and it's exceedingly difficult to learn to read people's moves and to learn your reach and proper timing without at least some free-sparring.

[Morph Bark]

I dont want to be one of those guys who gets into a fight, tries to bust out a move, and gets to kiss the pavement because while they work well in spars and training, they dont work well in a fight against some brawler.

"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play." :smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play." :smalltongue:

QFT.

It cannot be emphasized enough that the best way to handle actual combat is to avoid it as best you can.

There are people who say you should avoid it at all cost, but I'm old-school in the idea that there are some things a man has to fight for.

[Story Time]

...avoiding combat is not a style. Avoiding combat is accomplished by being aware and being able to run further, or longer, or more efficiently than the opponent. There is nothing opposing / aggressive about it. Studying one's habits when running and trying to improve them can be construed as an art, but not exactly martial.

In other words, "Considering Retreat as a military tactic does not fill an entire art. It is one technique and a useful one."

...traditional martial arts styles having a, "...dirty secret about cross-training," is approximate to saying, "All hand puppet actors failed ventriloquism." Every person's body is different. A wise teacher will tell their student which parts of the particular style that they teach will function for the student and which will not. Those that care about the student will encourage them to seek good instruction else-where where the style in question falls short.

Real fighters and warriors are not dedicated to one school or style. They seek out what works for them, what will work against a variety of opponent types, and then hone their skills. A martial artist is interested in the art itself and the transmission of the collection from one mind to the next. Kata can be very beautiful and it gives the artist some-thing constructive to do with their body and mind other than thinking about and / or practicing hurting others.


...I'm very sorry if any of this comes off as curt. It just seemed that there was some...myth / rhetoric rearing up in the thread. I mean no offense.

[SiuiS]

"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play." :smalltongue:

Yea and Nay. You've got to start somewhere, so the trick is in failing under controlled conditions so it's not public an you don't wind up with crippling bone formation. It like dancin in that way. Everyone sucks the first time. But hen that first time is could be completely different than what you'd expect.


...avoiding combat is not a style. Avoiding combat is accomplished by being aware and being able to run further, or longer, or more efficiently than the opponent. There is nothing opposing / aggressive about it. Studying one's habits when running and trying to improve them can be construed as an art, but not exactly martial.

In other words, "Considering Retreat as a military tactic does not fill an entire art. It is one technique and a useful one."

...traditional martial arts styles having a, "...dirty secret about cross-training," is approximate to saying, "All hand puppet actors failed ventriloquism." Every person's body is different. A wise teacher will tell their student which parts of the particular style that they teach will function for the student and which will not. Those that care about the student will encourage them to seek good instruction else-where where the style in question falls short.

Real fighters and warriors are not dedicated to one school or style. They seek out what works for them, what will work against a variety of opponent types, and then hone their skills. A martial artist is interested in the art itself and the transmission of the collection from one mind to the next. Kata can be very beautiful and it gives the artist some-thing constructive to do with their body and mind other than thinking about and / or practicing hurting others.


...I'm very sorry if any of this comes off as curt. It just seemed that there was some...myth / rhetoric rearing up in the thread. I mean no offense.

Well put. But I do not see the problem with rhetoric? Though checking to make sure we were on the same page shows that I've been working with an incorrect understanding of rhetoric.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The comment about the "dirty little secret" was more a social comment than a comment about the martial arts. Many martial arts instructors instruct their style not only for love of the art but as their livelyhood. Many of these instructors will play-up their style as better than other styles, not because it's necessarily true, but because they need to put food on the table and offering the "best" style tends to draw more customers.

Then you consider pride, one of the biggest failings of many martial artists, and you get that much more talk about their preffered style being the "best."

In my experience, the combination of pride and livelyhood is more common amongst traditionalist than non-traditionalists.

Note that while your body may lend itself to a particular style, training only in that style will leave you with its vulnerabilities as well as its strengths; for example, aikido is primarily a style of small-joint locks and throws based on the manipulation of an enemy's momentum and center of gravity. This is very useful against irrate lay-persons and heavy hitting hard styles such as certain schools of karate and, to a certain extent, tae kwon do. It'll play rather poorly against a style like some styles of kung-fu or ninjutsu that focus on lightning quick strikes from oblique angles and have a heavy emphasis on a strong sense of balance.

I freely grant that it will be uncommon to get into a fight with another martial artist, much less one who is an advanced student of an exotic style, but it's not impossible. If it does happen, wouldn't you rather you had more than one set of techniques to rely on?

Then of course there's the fact that just as some styles work well for people of a certain body type, many styles have difficulty in dealing with people of a certain body type; for example, if your body lends itself particularly well to judo, you'll find yourself having a tough time against a person who's notably shorter than you, since it's difficult to get your center of gravity below theirs for many throws. If that person has any kind of background in a grappling style, themselves, you're going to have a serious problem on your hands.

Then, of course, there are styles that are incomplete in their own right. Most styles of western boxing and many styles of kickboxing don't teach much, if anything, about what to do in a clinch or if a fight takes you to the ground, since these styles are primarily sporting in nature and clinch and ground fighting are against the rules.

As I said, if you want to be a complete, well-rounded fighter then you need to do at least some cross-training.

Cross-training in other atheletic endeavors isn't necessarily a bad idea either, since physical fitness translates just fine. I've recently begun to supplement my fighting skills with a bit of parkour/freerunning. It's demanding and fun in a completely different way than any combat sport, but the cardio and necessity of situational awareness add to my combat capability as well.

[Story Time]

...rhetoric in the colloquial sense of artful words used to mystify / confuse others. The myth word did come first.

1
...I'll try to keep this simple. "If a person told me that their system would be enough to suit all of my self-defense needs, I'd probably avoid learning from that person."

Why? Because at the end of the year, a person's body type lends them to a particular teacher. When a student possesses a physique like their teacher's that student will benefit from directly applicable knowledge. This knowledge can also take the form of highly personalized advice. The kind of help that comes from an instructor whose quest was tinted with the type of physique which their student lives in.

[Traab]

Hey Kelb, dont worry, if I, after having mastered my martial art, happen to come across another martial artist from a different school that wants to fight, I know how its handled. Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, and Jet Li movies have prepared me. We must construct a platform 20 feet in the air, and do battle in the town square. The winner gets to own the losers school. And the secret to winning is to have a secondary style of martial arts that is 100x as lethally effective. Like kung fu turning into drunken boxing.

[razorback]

I agree with whoever up there said that there isn't any best style and that, most times, you have to broaden your experience to be at all ranges in a fight.
Styles aside, one thing that you need to emphasis, IMHO, is to be almost obsessive about training. I see people who do the twice (or once) a week class for an hour and expect that to be the thing that saves them in a fight.
I study a style of Hapkido and our main emphasis is joint locks. We do grappling, forms, punching, kicking, weapons, etc. When I practice at home or when I get down to the dojang to practice on off time, I do as much as I can so that when I'm in class I can choose to emphasis the joint locks and grappling because in the three fights I've been in since I started about 20 years ago, it was the joint locks and grappling that ended the fights for me. This (http://www.amazon.com/Living-Martial-Way-Manual-Warrior/dp/0942637763) book to me is a great primer (even if his ideas on nutrition are horrible).

[noparlpf]

You'll learn which moves you actually can pull off against a resisting enemy if your training includes free sparring instead of just practicing those 'fancy moves' against someone who mostly cooperates. About 1/4 of our Jujutsu sessions is ground randori, and of the dozens more or less fancy moves we learned I used rather few in there(granted, a good number assume you are standing instead of on the ground). I usually just go for the throat, and I'm at a point where I can reliably choke someone with a bit less experience with no way for them to get out of the hold. Quite useful I think, as I surmise street thugs are more likely to train a martial art focused on kicking/punching than wrestling.

I'm still rather novice, so I still need to get to the point where I can use most moves against someone who really doesn't want me to. Most things I do are improvised and less than ideal. Though I wish I could replicate that joint lock where I used just my legs.

How do you define free sparring? If two students spar, there are still rules like "stay within this martial art", so even though we're resisting each other and trying to hit each other, I can't grapple with someone at taekwondo practice. It makes a kicking-heavy martial art rather less useful when you don't learn how not to get tripped up when someone catches your leg.

[Morph Bark]

Hey Kelb, dont worry, if I, after having mastered my martial art, happen to come across another martial artist from a different school that wants to fight, I know how its handled. Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, and Jet Li movies have prepared me. We must construct a platform 20 feet in the air, and do battle in the town square. The winner gets to own the losers school. And the secret to winning is to have a secondary style of martial arts that is 100x as lethally effective. Like kung fu turning into drunken boxing.

I'd love to learn drunken boxing, but in more of a "for the lulz" kind of way.

[Traab]

I'd love to learn drunken boxing, but in more of a "for the lulz" kind of way.

I would like to learn it more for the distinctiveness and entertainment value. There would just be something amusing about being able to do those kinds of moves and use them to win a fight.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How do you define free sparring? If two students spar, there are still rules like "stay within this martial art", so even though we're resisting each other and trying to hit each other, I can't grapple with someone at taekwondo practice. It makes a kicking-heavy martial art rather less useful when you don't learn how not to get tripped up when someone catches your leg.

This is why, for actual fighting, you need to either study a style that actually incorporates more than just striking, or cross-train in a grappling style so that you know at least a bit about countering a grab. Even just within tae kwon do, though, you learn to read the opponents moves and how to find your reach and timing.

If you where a thai boxer you'd be fighting in a clinch as often as not, and getting a leg caught, while not particularly common (a properly thrown roundhouse is frighteningly fast and blocking is much easier than catching while trying to grab a leg kick exposes you to hand and elbow strikes), does happen often enough that you'd have some idea how to handle it.

Of course, if all you're concerned with is being able to beat up the other guy in a fight, joining an MMA gym or club is probably your best bet. The attendant physical conditioning and near-full contact practice (even MMA enthusiast wear safety gear in practice) will build up a certain degree of toughness in resisting a successful attack and get you into prime condition. It's going to hurt like hell though.

[noparlpf]

This is why, for actual fighting, you need to either study a style that actually incorporates more than just striking, or cross-train in a grappling style so that you know at least a bit about countering a grab. Even just within tae kwon do, though, you learn to read the opponents moves and how to find your reach and timing.

Aye, and does anybody have a suggestion for a good grappling style to look for to supplement taekwondo?


If you where a thai boxer you'd be fighting in a clinch as often as not, and getting a leg caught, while not particularly common (a properly thrown roundhouse is frighteningly fast and blocking is much easier than catching while trying to grab a leg kick exposes you to hand and elbow strikes), does happen often enough that you'd have some idea how to handle it.

Depends too on whether you mind much "blocking" with your ribs while going for the leg...I never noticed my last broken rib, so a few more probably wouldn't be too bad.

[Story Time]

...I'm tempted to say, "I would never use a round-house kick in a fight." But it would be more fair to say, "I can think of many better uses for my feet in a fight than an unbalancing high-kick which exposes the groin."

...it is theoretically possible to trounce an opponent, especially if they start the fight drunk, to the point where a high kick could function with less than normal danger. But really...deep down in my ( our? ) heart...I know that it's just showing off.

Never turn your back to a threat.

[noparlpf]

...I'm tempted to say, "I would never use a round-house kick in a fight." But it would be more fair to say, "I can think of many better uses for my feet in a fight than an unbalancing high-kick which exposes the groin."

...it is theoretically possible to trounce an opponent, especially if they start the fight drunk, to the point where a high kick could function with less than normal danger. But really...deep down in my ( our? ) heart...I know that it's just showing off.

Never turn your back to a threat.

But showing off gets you more points.

[SiuiS]

...rhetoric in the colloquial sense of artful words used to mystify / confuse others. The myth word did come first.

I understood rhetorical speech to be designed to prompt thought, possibly along certain lines. I goin instead it's less about bein thought provoking and more about being persuasive. Ah well, different dictionaries and all that.


How do you define free sparring? If two students spar, there are still rules like "stay within this martial art", so even though we're resisting each other and trying to hit each other, I can't grapple with someone at taekwondo practice. It makes a kicking-heavy martial art rather less useful when you don't learn how not to get tripped up when someone catches your leg.

Depends on the art? In Kajukenbo "stay within the art" meant "Don't bite and don't grab a weapon until you've got at least a green belt". But one of the points of kaju is to cross train; you can't go beyond second degree without proof that you've incorporated something else into your regimen in a meaningful manner.


Aye, and does anybody have a suggestion for a good grappling style to look for to supplement taekwondo?


Small circle jujitsu, or qinna.


...I'm tempted to say, "I would never use a round-house kick in a fight." But it would be more fair to say, "I can think of many better uses for my feet in a fight than an unbalancing high-kick which exposes the groin."

...it is theoretically possible to trounce an opponent, especially if they start the fight drunk, to the point where a high kick could function with less than normal danger. But really...deep down in my ( our? ) heart...I know that it's just showing off.

Never turn your back to a threat.

if done right, a roundhouse kick (unless I've got something else in mind) doesn't really turn your back to the target. Say, right leg? Right leg comes forward, out and around, kicking in front of you in an arc. During practice you put your whole body into it and turn all the way around to avoid injury and maintain force. When you actually hit something, you stop turning and they start moving.

If you mean instead, say, left foot crosses right, you present your back and then spin, hitting with right foot, yeah that's pretty high risk with only high reward in certain situations. I think it's like a spinning backfist, and you would only do that during an opponet's recovery period, but I'm not sure.

[Kelb_Panthera]

...I'm tempted to say, "I would never use a round-house kick in a fight." But it would be more fair to say, "I can think of many better uses for my feet in a fight than an unbalancing high-kick which exposes the groin."

...it is theoretically possible to trounce an opponent, especially if they start the fight drunk, to the point where a high kick could function with less than normal danger. But really...deep down in my ( our? ) heart...I know that it's just showing off.

Never turn your back to a threat.

Wrong roundhouse. The kick that's called a roundhouse in muay thai is generally aimed at the ribs or kidney, not the head, though it can be used for a head kick as well. It's also executed a bit closer than what most people think of when they hear "roundhouse" since muay thai kicks are delivered with the shin instead of the foot. Combined with the frightening speed I mentioned before, it's not a kick to be taken lightly. It wasn't rhetoric when I said a well conditioned thai fighter's shin is like a baseball bat hanging from his knee.

If the thai roundhouse is properly executed, it doesn't expose the groin and any foe foolish enough to choose to neither avoid it nor block it is probably going to be out of the fight after it breaks a rib or does a bit of organ damage. If he blocks, your back is never exposed, and if he evades he's denying himself the opportunity to attack your back by either moving too far away with no time to reverse direction or staying in front of you by moving with the kick. Nevermind that a skilled fighter never throws a big power kick or a big power punch without unbalancing his opponent with smaller, faster attacks first; regardless of style.

Muay thai hasn't changed all that much since fire-arms were introduced to that part of the world and unarmed combat skills began to lose importance. It's still a very effective fighting style for real combat.

@ nonparlpf: I've supplemented my striking styles primarily with judo for take-downs and brazillian jiu-jitsu for ground fighting, though I've also incorporated some elements of free-style and greco-roman wrestling. I've only picked up bits and pieces of tae kwon do, though, so I can't say with absolute certainty that other styles wouldn't pair with it better.

I don't hold a belt in any style, but I practice with those that do and incorporate as much as I can into my own repetoire. There's a growing sentiment amongst MMA enthusiasts that cross-training from the beginning makes you a better all-around fighter than trying to master one style and only later incorporating elements of other styles, and it's a sentiment to which I subscribe.

When I say that I primarily use judo and jiu-jitsu as my grappling styles what I really mean is that most of the elements to my grappling repetoire come from those styles.

[Story Time]

...I'm...going to stop right here. Ya'll have a good thread. :smallannoyed:

[Morph Bark]

Depends on the art? In Kajukenbo "stay within the art" meant "Don't bite and don't grab a weapon until you've got at least a green belt". But one of the points of kaju is to cross train; you can't go beyond second degree without proof that you've incorporated something else into your regimen in a meaningful manner.

Really? That's an actual thing? That's pretty amazing (though I imagine also meaning it'd cost more since you'd either be very good at picking up other techniques yourself or taking classes in other martial arts); I wonder if there are other martial arts that have something similar?


...I'm...going to stop right here. Ya'll have a good thread. :smallannoyed:

:smallconfused: Something the matter?


Also, with regards to MMA (and mixed martial arts), I often see them merging hard-striking from stuff like boxing, Muay Thai, full-contact karate and occassionally Taekwondo with grappling from judo, jiu-jitsu and sambo. I'm wondering, how well would aikido/aikijutsu function into that, or some of the Chinese styles like Praying Mantis, that strike specific points rather than go for hard strikes?

...would that even be allowed?

[SiuiS]

Really? That's an actual thing? That's pretty amazing (though I imagine also meaning it'd cost more since you'd either be very good at picking up other techniques yourself or taking classes in other martial arts); I wonder if there are other martial arts that have something similar?

I thought it was pretty neat, but I can also see how it would backfire. Anything of the sort is only as good as the panel that has to grade your addition or whatnot, so it could become a small fraternity of folks patting each other on the back, or small biases between teachers could become magnified. It's also limited by what the one person could take in; odds are they are only getting about 80% of what they are being taught, so grabbing outside stuff is really just shoring up what's normally lost to attrition. And it gets schmucky from there, as higher levels of black belt degree required being a teacher of the art, or eventually having other teachers who were your student. It could promote aggrandizement without the level of advancement one woul expect; big difference between refining your skill for a couple years while you build up a student base, and just dumping cash for a studio to get your next stripe you know?



:smallconfused: Something the matter?


Ideological differences, I think.


Also, with regards to MMA (and mixed martial arts), I often see them merging hard-striking from stuff like boxing, Muay Thai, full-contact karate and occassionally Taekwondo with grappling from judo, jiu-jitsu and sambo. I'm wondering, how well would aikido/aikijutsu function into that, or some of the Chinese styles like Praying Mantis, that strike specific points rather than go for hard strikes?

...would that even be allowed?

You mean can they do this in a mixed martial arts match? My guess is no. There are a lot of moves they've stopped teaching to that crowd because they cause too much trauma. You'll almost never see a forward elbow, but they'll drop the back of the elbow onto the enemy plenty because it's safer. I can't remember anything else except fish-hooking they aren't allowed to do... Oh, throat strikes! Which... I'm guessing answers your question, since it's a specific spot targeted for effect.

[Spiryt]

Also, with regards to MMA (and mixed martial arts), I often see them merging hard-striking from stuff like boxing, Muay Thai, full-contact karate and occassionally Taekwondo with grappling from judo, jiu-jitsu and sambo. I'm wondering, how well would aikido/aikijutsu function into that, or some of the Chinese styles like Praying Mantis, that strike specific points rather than go for hard strikes?

...would that even be allowed?

I'm not sure what you mean, but all kinds of fish hooking and attempts to tear flesh are banned, so using fingers to try to do that won't do.

Acupuncture points strikes and other idea generally just won't work against determined, conditioned opponent, so no one bothers.

Aikido is generally very 'soft' from definition, so it's just not practical for training for full contact combat, all other full contact grappling arts provide holds, wrestling and so on.

http://www.abcboxing.com/unified_mma_rules.html

Points 1 to 18 in "fouls" are banned attacks in pro MMA, for interested.


You'll almost never see a forward elbow, but they'll drop the back of the elbow onto the enemy plenty because it's safer.

How exactly you define "forward elbows", though?

And no one really does anything beacuse it's "safer", everyone wants to win so does most damaging thing he can within the rules....

[Metahuman1]

I practice Western martial arts, both armed and unarmed. Heavy rapier is my specialty, but I've also learned the basics of quarterstaff, longsword (bastard sword if you're playing D&D; the game has weapon terms slightly messed up), and Renaissance-era German wrestling. For self-defense, these have the advantage of not having been actively stripped of their most effective components over decades of being hyped as an exercise and discipline method, but at least the armed ones have the drawback of it being socially unacceptable to cart around a sword. :smalltongue:

Though occurs to me, if you can get a concealed weapons permit and there legal for ownership/carry/use in your area, a sword cane or umbrella sword would be a fairly easy way around it.

It's socially unacceptable to carry a sword, unless they don't know you have a sword on you until your being attacked. Once your being attacked, I promise, most sensible people will just be grateful that you took the precaution of making sure if necessary you could protect yourself and those in the immediate vicinity. And unless and until that comes to pass, what they don't know isn't gonna hurt them.



Edit:

With reguards to Morph's question above.

Learning the basics of Akido or Tai Chi or a similar style has the advantage of teaching you a lot about using your opponents balance against him and about how to redirect his force. Though a lot of presser points and stuff are banned for safety reasons which hurts such forms a lot.

Wing Chun is another form that learning the basics of is useful for simply because it's good at teaching you how to get in there face, jam there moves so they have a hard time mounting a counter, and keep beating on them. Plus, the conditioning to the arms and shins is crazy.

[dehro]

I don't think there's a single country where a sword cane is a legal item to be carried around. in fact in most countries you can't even buy one unless it's an antique (100+ years old) and even then you need a permit...just to buy it..forget walking around with it.

[Spiryt]

Learning the basics of Akido or Tai Chi or a similar style has the advantage of teaching you a lot about using your opponents balance against him and about how to redirect his force. Though a lot of presser points and stuff are banned for safety reasons which hurts such forms a lot.




There's no ban for such thing in anything I've ever seen though... Groin, throat, eyes and spine are pretty universally banned in MMA competitions, and nothing else as far as legal target goes.

[Frozen_Feet]

As a comment on free sparring, our club's rules for such is "no punches to the head, kicks to the head are allowed". Not "use karate only". Those of us who know other arts can and do include them, though you rarely can even tell. It's not like basic punches etc. are that different between arts.

In my experience, the problem is not breadth of techniques, but the fact that you can't use full force for most of them. In the dojo, you will never be allowed to, say, break an arm with a lock. On the street, you may have to.

I was a bit confused about the roundhouse kick part. Are we talking about (in karate terms) mawasigeri, uramawasigeri or ushiromawasigeri? Because first and second will leave your body sideways at most and you will face your opponent whole time. In the case of third, I agree. It's needless against common folks.

Also, I had a lesson where we practiced mule kicks against moving targets. Turning tail was half the point, because it leaves you in best position to run away. Of course, context is important: most self-defense situations are drunken brawls, and a drunken agressor will often puff their chest when coming at you, leaving their stomach wide open. So you pre-emptively knock wind out of them and run. Quess which art this was.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The roundhouse we were discussing is the roundhouse from muay thai. I don't know which, if any, of those karate "roundhouses" it would translate to. I've always been more concerned with what works more than what the techniques are called. Consequently I rarely know the original name of a technique, just the engish name.

As for MMA rules, different circuts have different safety rules, but attacks whose sole purpose is to cripple the opponent are generally out, not just as a safety concern but also as a matter of respect for your fellow competitors. This generally means no striking the back of the head or spine, no small joint-locks, no kicking directly into the knee-cap, no spiking the opponent, etc. Then there's the dirty fighting moves that are eliminated, no eye-gouging, no fish-hooking, no hitting "below the belt," etc.

Of note: if you automatically picture the UFC when you hear "MMA," it might interest you to know that the UFC has some of the most stringent safety rules of any MMA circut.

[Metahuman1]

I don't think there's a single country where a sword cane is a legal item to be carried around. in fact in most countries you can't even buy one unless it's an antique (100+ years old) and even then you need a permit...just to buy it..forget walking around with it.

Come down to Florida some time, walk into a knife/self defense shop or grab a bud-k catalog. Then get a Concealed carry permit. Congrats, your legal.




And I was under the impression that a lot of soft power techniques and presser and nerve strikes and small join manipulations were generally not allowed in competitive MMA?

[SiuiS]

How exactly you define "forward elbows", though?

And no one really does anything beacuse it's "safer", everyone wants to win so does most damaging thing he can within the rules....

The few I've checked had hitting with the broad "meat" of the elbow as a legal move unless you were driving it into the top of the skull, but hitting with the narrow, forward facing point was not because most areas the sport occurs in consider that lethal force.


Though occurs to me, if you can get a concealed weapons permit and there legal for ownership/carry/use in your area, a sword cane or umbrella sword would be a fairly easy way around it.

It's socially unacceptable to carry a sword, unless they don't know you have a sword on you until your being attacked. Once your being attacked, I promise, most sensible people will just be grateful that you took the precaution of making sure if necessary you could protect yourself and those in the immediate vicinity. And unless and until that comes to pass, what they don't know isn't gonna hurt them.

I don't think so. If you get into a self-defense situation where you win and your enemies have sword wounds, that's not going to look good on your end. A pocket knife could achieve the same results, while also being a utility tool. A sword, especially a concealed one, can only really be justified as a weapon intent on causing harm – especially because a regular, run of the mill wooden came can be used for defense with a much lower fatality rate.



Learning the basics of Akido or Tai Chi or a similar style has the advantage of teaching you a lot about using your opponents balance against him and about how to redirect his force. Though a lot of presser points and stuff are banned for safety reasons which hurts such forms a lot.

I think Akido and Aikido are separate styles. I don't know much about Akido except that it exists.


I don't think there's a single country where a sword cane is a legal item to be carried around. in fact in most countries you can't even buy one unless it's an antique (100+ years old) and even then you need a permit...just to buy it..forget walking around with it.

Yeah, mostly. You can get them here in the states, but it's kind of shady. Bud-K catalogues have little footnotes that not everything you can get in them is legal in every state. They sell butterfly knives, for instance, which are pretty uh, "frowned upon" around these parts.


Come down to Florida some time, walk into a knife/self defense shop or grab a bud-k catalog. Then get a Concealed carry permit. Congrats, your legal.

I am pretty sure that there is no permit in the united states which allows for the concealed carry of any blades weapon. You also get into implied ethics, premeditation, acceptable force and necessity of combat.



And I was under the impression that a lot of soft power techniques and presser and nerve strikes and small join manipulations were generally not allowed in competitive MMA?

No, its really just that performing them effectively enough to actually deter a conditioned fighter requires soft tissue damage. One knuckle or a sturdy chop to the carotid can cause unconsciousness by forcing blood to accelerate into the brain pan. It can also do a lot of other things that are worse, so they don't use them. It's also why they get really second-by-second during blood chokes. They can do a lot of harm.

[Spiryt]

And I was under the impression that a lot of soft power techniques and presser and nerve strikes and small join manipulations were generally not allowed in competitive MMA?

Small joint (toes and fingers) manipulations is not allowed.

There's absolutely nothing about pressers of whatever. People punch and knee themselves into such nerve bundles as liver and solar plexus, so worrying about some acupuncture would be pointless...





As for MMA rules, different circuts have different safety rules, but attacks whose sole purpose is to cripple the opponent are generally out, not just as a safety concern but also as a matter of respect for your fellow competitors. This generally means no striking the back of the head or spine, no small joint-locks, no kicking directly into the knee-cap, no spiking the opponent, etc. Then there's the dirty fighting moves that are eliminated, no eye-gouging, no fish-hooking, no hitting "below the belt," etc.


Kicking the knee-cap is legal. Other stuff listed is illegal indeed.

http://i341.photobucket.com/albums/o397/jackcabbage/knee.gif


The few I've checked had hitting with the broad "meat" of the elbow as a legal move unless you were driving it into the top of the skull, but hitting with the narrow, forward facing point was not because most areas the sport occurs in consider that lethal force.

I'm not sure what you're checking, but the only rule in pro US MMA about elbows is that they can't be "12-6" so go directly downwards.

Silly rule, but somebody had that idea from whatever reason.

There's absolutely no clarification about parts of elbow. People hit with the very tip quite often, indeed.



One knuckle or a sturdy chop to the carotid can cause unconsciousness by forcing blood to accelerate into the brain pan. It can also do a lot of other things that are worse, so they don't use them. It's also why they get really second-by-second during blood chokes. They can do a lot of harm.

I really think that somebody would already try those famed 'chops to the cartoid somewhere, somehow. Because they are not illegal at all, and if they allow to win big money...

Blood chokes are different - some people go 'second by second' not only because it's safer, but to be sure they have it locked in well, sometimes they just crank the hell out it, because there's opportunity.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq116/metalmeshuggah831/313gnqx.gif



you to know that the UFC has some of the most stringent safety rules of any MMA circut.

UFC really follows only what they have by unified rules of MMA in USA. There are plenty of more strict rulings. Particularly amateur MMA obviously has more things banned, because competitors aren't on high level of athletic and technical shape.

[Frozen_Feet]

The roundhouse we were discussing is the roundhouse from muay thai. I don't know which, if any, of those karate "roundhouses" it would translate to. I've always been more concerned with what works more than what the techniques are called. Consequently I rarely know the original name of a technique, just the engish name.


Yay, I checked (now that I'm on a computer), and it is basic mawasigeri. Which is why the point about turning your back doesn't make sense to me - the kick won't leave your back exposed unless you (or your opponent) overturn your body.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yay, I checked (now that I'm on a computer), and it is basic mawasigeri. Which is why the point about turning your back doesn't make sense to me - the kick won't leave your back exposed unless you (or your opponent) overturn your body.

If it's got everything you've got behind it and you miss then there will be a moment when your back is partially exposed, but like I said, it's a very small window that would be nearly impossible for any but the most skilled of opponents to capitalize on.

You can always follow it with a wheel kick or a back kick too, further minimizing the risk. I'm pretty sure I'm blending styles at that point though.

I really should start keeping better track of which moves came from which style. :smallredface: :smalltongue:


Edit: looked up mawashi geri; completely different kick from a thai roundhouse.

Here's a video demonstration (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP-TCF5Q5-M) of the left-roundhouse. Since I'm a south-paw this would be a standard roundhouse for me since I wouldn't need to do a switch-step first. Notice how when he kicks full-force he can't help momentarily turning his back, though as he explains in a match or fight you'd simply continue to spin until you'd gone all the way around.

[Jallorn]

I am pretty sure that there is no permit in the united states which allows for the concealed carry of any blades weapon. You also get into implied ethics, premeditation, acceptable force and necessity of combat.

In Chicago, as long as the blade is under a certain size (not sure what exactly, I just know that my survival knife is easily too big at 8', handle included) you can conceal carry.

So hey, I'm going to be hanging around here a bit I think, since I've slowly increased my knowledge of and interest in martial arts within the last couple years. I haven't taken lessons yet, but I'm going to next semester once I can fit it into my schedule. There's a Dojo in the town I go to college in. Unfortunately, it's the only one, this being a small town and all, but it seems fairly legit, so it's not as bad as it could be. If I'm right they teach a variation of Muay Tai, but from what I can tell it's pretty MMA actually (with a seperate MMA class for even broader styles, like western wrestling or boxing).

The philosophy as I understand it so far is the idea of having a small set of basic moves and learning how to apply them in as many different situations as possible so as to improve adaptability. Also control of space, and every attack being a defense and every defense being an attack.

Oh, I'm also going to be learning European Longsword, but that won't be until the summer, so that's a ways off.

[SiuiS]

I'm not sure what you're checking, but the only rule in pro US MMA about elbows is that they can't be "12-6" so go directly downwards.

Currently? Nothing. These were the local circuit rules for open play circa 2005.


Silly rule, but somebody had that idea from whatever reason.

A direct downward strike can drive the cranial suture into the brain. You can't do that for the same reason you can't wear gloves; a semblance of safety.



I really think that somebody would already try those famed 'chops to the cartoid somewhere, somehow. Because they are not illegal at all, and if they allow to win big money...

Them you're not really thinking at all. You've already said yourself that hitting the throat is illegal. Why would somebody try hopping the throat for "big money" if it's illegal?

The padding also drastically changes the mechanics. That's why boxers use hooks, striking with the fifth metacarpal knuckle. On a boxing glove it's the most economic, powerful strike. On a naked fist it's waste of energy and a broken bone.


Blood chokes are different - some people go 'second by second' not only because it's safer, but to be sure they have it locked in well, sometimes they just crank the hell out it, because there's opportunity.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq116/metalmeshuggah831/313gnqx.gif

You misunderstand; referees pay really close attention, second by second, because it's dangerous. I believe both blood and air chokes constitute lethal force in enough instances as to say all of them. That ye fighter would just torque the other guy's blood flow to ye brain for 25k or whatever is EXACTLY the reason to have a referee in there.


In Chicago, as long as the blade is under a certain size (not sure what exactly, I just know that my survival knife is easily too big at 8', handle included) you can conceal carry.

Fair point. 'bladed weapon' Isn't what I wanted to say, but everything specific I wrote was about specific laws. I know the California penal code section for carrying of weapons by heart, for example, as well as a within-five-years-accurate list of which cities and counties have more stringent rules. Unfortunately, none of that applies generically.

Most places allow the carrying of pocket knives, pen knives and multi-tools, even places that normally crack down on such things (with exceptions, I know a public library where you can't carry anything. But your wallet). Those would be a tool, rather than a weapon. And I am still very positive that the united states pretty universally looks badly at concealing a sword, by whatever definition, for everyday carrying

There is also that carrying a sword is less about self defense than most martial arts.



So hey, I'm going to be hanging around here a bit I think, since I've slowly increased my knowledge of and interest in martial arts within the last couple years. I haven't taken lessons yet, but I'm going to next semester once I can fit it into my schedule. There's a Dojo in the town I go to college in. Unfortunately, it's the only one, this being a small town and all, but it seems fairly legit, so it's not as bad as it could be. If I'm right they teach a variation of Muay Tai, but from what I can tell it's pretty MMA actually (with a seperate MMA class for even broader styles, like western wrestling or boxing).

The philosophy as I understand it so far is the idea of having a small set of basic moves and learning how to apply them in as many different situations as possible so as to improve adaptability. Also control of space, and every attack being a defense and every defense being an attack.

Oh, I'm also going to be learning European Longsword, but that won't be until the summer, so that's a ways off.

Neat. Glad to have you! Look forward to the stuff you come up with.

[Worira]

No, its really just that performing them effectively enough to actually deter a conditioned fighter requires soft tissue damage. One knuckle or a sturdy chop to the carotid can cause unconsciousness by forcing blood to accelerate into the brain pan. It can also do a lot of other things that are worse, so they don't use them. It's also why they get really second-by-second during blood chokes. They can do a lot of harm.

Find me a single documented case of this, please.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Find me a single documented case of this, please.

One knuckle sounds like a bit of a stretch, but a good knife-hand to the carotid could certainly cause a disruption in bloodflow that would cause unconciousness, though probably only briefly. I'd honestly be more concerned with hitting it too hard and causing a rupture and, consequently, death.

[Spiryt]

A direct downward strike can drive the cranial suture into the brain. You can't do that for the same reason you can't wear gloves; a semblance of safety.


There's absolutely nothing about other elbows that cannot 'drive cranial structure' into brain. Direct downward strikes happen all the time and are legal just because both fighters are at different angle, so it doesn't come straight down.

Much more powerful strikes, from knees to spinning elbows cannot drive anything into brain, broken jaws, orbitals, maxilla's are relatively often, but I don't think that actual cranial splints happen anywhere south of car crashes, those are powerful bones. :smallconfused:

Elbows like that happen from time to time in Muay Thai and don't result in such damage.



Them you're not really thinking at all. You've already said yourself that hitting the throat is illegal. Why would somebody try hopping the throat for "big money" if it's illegal?


Because such 'chops', open palm strikes and whatever else are not illegal in any way.

So there's no reason to hold back.


Strikes to throat happen, but nobody generally actively aims there, due to illegality.


The padding also drastically changes the mechanics. That's why boxers use hooks, striking with the fifth metacarpal knuckle. On a boxing glove it's the most economic, powerful strike. On a naked fist it's waste of energy and a broken bone.

Of course, but in ungloved no-hold barrel or striking competitions, people still don't completely abandon punches in any way... Very often go for the body, throw it differently, but still punch, to the head as well.


You misunderstand; referees pay really close attention, second by second, because it's dangerous. I believe both blood and air chokes constitute lethal force in enough instances as to say all of them. That ye fighter would just torque the other guy's blood flow to ye brain for 25k or whatever is EXACTLY the reason to have a referee in there.



Find me a single documented case of this, please.

I would be really interested as well.

Pretty damn powerful roundhouse kicks land on the neck hole time, and don't cause anything...

Obviously, hand strike has really different mechanics, precision and all, no discussion, but it still doesn't sound probable...

[TheFallenOne]

How do you define free sparring? If two students spar, there are still rules like "stay within this martial art", so even though we're resisting each other and trying to hit each other, I can't grapple with someone at taekwondo practice. It makes a kicking-heavy martial art rather less useful when you don't learn how not to get tripped up when someone catches your leg.

Obviously you have to stay within the constraints of the rules. Our randori is pretty much pure wrestling, no kicks, punches, stuff with the small joints... And it goes until one taps.

Does is simulate a real fight? Far from it. But it teaches you something you don't learn by just repeating the same sequence of moves over and over against a mostly cooperating enemy, starting from the same position each time. The latter shows you the techniques. But the former gives you a chance to implement them against someone who doesn't want you to and learn to quickly spot what to do in the middle of a fast changing situation. You may know a nice joint lock, but if you notice a second too late you had a chance to use it that's not worth all that much.

[SiuiS]

Find me a single documented case of this, please.

Mm, no. You're a big risen martyr, if you're interested you can look it up yourself. I've seen it happen, bu that's inevitably anecdotal and not documented. Its not a game I care to play. I'm not worrie about whether you believe it or not.


There's absolutely nothing about other elbows that cannot 'drive cranial structure' into brain.

Cranial suture. Look it up in an anatomy text and then think about it.



Because such 'chops', open palm strikes and whatever else are not illegal in any way.

Strikes to throat happen, but nobody generally actively aims there, due to illegality.

You've answered your own question without challenging my claim at all. Thank you.



Of course, but in ungloved no-hold barrel or striking competitions, people still don't completely abandon punches in any way... Very often go for the body, throw it differently, but still punch, to the head as well.


Irrelevant. You're assuming. This, again, doesn't challenge my statement at all.



Pretty damn powerful roundhouse kicks land on the neck hole time, and don't cause anything...

Oddly, this is documented. One of those martial arts travel and compete shows, a-la deadliest warrior, has at least one instance of a roundhouse to the neck causing unconsciousness due to messing with circulation.

[dehro]

@suius

you are aware, I hope, that any point of view mentioning even only laterally "deadliest warrior" as a worthy source of information instantly loses credibility, right? :smallbiggrin:

[Kelb_Panthera]

@suius

you are aware, I hope, that any point of view mentioning even only laterally "deadliest warrior" as a worthy source of information instantly loses credibility, right? :smallbiggrin:

In fairness, I very much doubt that deadliest warrior is what SiuiS had in mind. Probably just used that title because it was the first one to come to mind.

More likely he was thinking of fight science, or one of those other nat' geo or discovery network shows.

There's exactly zero travel for the hosts of Deadliest Warrior.

You do have a point though. Entertaining as it is, Deadliest Warrior is -not- good science on a number of levels. From using base-line human averages for calculations in reaction speed and general movement to "experts" that clearly know everything about their weapons except how to properly wield them (with a few exceptions), they've got more than a few holes in their number crunching.

[Spiryt]

Mm, no. You're a big risen martyr, if you're interested you can look it up yourself. I've seen it happen, bu that's inevitably anecdotal and not documented. Its not a game I care to play. I'm not worrie about whether you believe it or not.

Well, sorry, no one is playing "game" or "martyr", and there's no reason for such tone.

You are making a claim, you should back it up, it's pretty obvious.



Cranial suture. Look it up in an anatomy text and then think about it.


Ok, so there are sutures, in the cranium, and they like... exist.

I'm not sure how should it be relevant to anything. :smallconfused:

Any source about them getting damaged by strikes of any sorts, let alone elbows?



You've answered your own question without challenging my claim at all. Thank you.


Then what's your point.

Chops, open palm strikes and whatever are legal.

Striking the neck is perfectly legal as well. Throat and spine are banned, but those are smallish part of the neck, especially in more 'bulked up' individuals.

So 'cartoid strike' or anything similar, is again, perfectly legal.

So chops to the neck are perfectly legal.

Can't state it more simply.





Irrelevant. You're assuming. This, again, doesn't challenge my statement at all.

I'm assuming what?

Again, I'm just stating that I've never have seen someone seriously go for "neck chops" even in bare knuckle fights. So gloves or lack of such don't seem to be relevant.



Oddly, this is documented. One of those martial arts travel and compete shows, a-la deadliest warrior, has at least one instance of a roundhouse to the neck causing unconsciousness due to messing with circulation.


That's interesting.

Those shows sadly are usually horribly dumb, but I may take a look at this, if somebody has any details about this, to check what level of facts it had.

[Pheehelm]

Question for the hand-to-hand self-defense experts, since this is something I've idly wondered for years: hypothetically, if you ended up in a real self-defense situation, were unarmed, and running wasn't a viable option (or you just didn't feel like it), what would you ideally rather be wearing? Counting accessories and especially footwear here.

(We'll say the other guy doesn't have a firearm, but may or may not have some other weapon.)

[Spiryt]

Well, something like motorcycle armor would probably be more than handful, but it really depends on situation.

Good piece of stick is always great 'accessory' as well. :smallbiggrin:

[dehro]

I'm far from being an expert, but I'd say that confortable clothes would be favourite.. (as in, won't tear apart or impede movement when you try to knee someone in the groin or bend in "less than formal" ways. I don't know about you guys, but last time I had cause to spread my legs a little whilst wearing a suit.. let's just say that sensitive parts of me protested).. a few layers of clothes would be even better..as to lessen/spread the impact of blows..
no glasses, no ear-rings or other decorative accessories that might cause tearing/scratching/cutting of skin or sensitive organs..
then again, much depends on what your "plan" is for such a situation... whether you need something sturdy like a leather jacket or not...etc etc
does a rolled up magazine count as accessory?

[Pheehelm]

I specifically said "unarmed." So, no sticks or rolled-up magazines. An accessory might be like, say for instance, a headband, wristband, maybe gloves or elbow/knee pads, though depending on usage that could really be pushing the definition of unarmed.

[dehro]

gotcha.. would safety footwear stretch it too? they tend to be steel-capped (steel or something equally sturdy)
edit:
then again.. it's kinda unlikely to walk around in places without there being anything that couldn't be converted in a weapon, in a pinch.. from a keyring to a belt with a heavy buckle, from a roll of mints to a rolled up sweater, pretty much everything can be used as a weapon..defensive or offensive as may be.. and finding something, anything, to take hold of and use to look like more of a menace than I'd look with empty hands would be my first course of action.
in my experience, looking like you know what you're doing can defuse a situation quicker than actually coming to blows.

[Pheehelm]

Actually the number one sub-question on my mind is how steel-toed boots rank up with running shoes* and anything else. Even if we're talking about using kicks in a real fight for some reason, where I admit it would stretch the definition of "weapon."

As far as the "anything and everything can be a weapon," well, Iunno, pretend it slipped your mind in the adrenaline rush or something. Work with me here, I'm trying to eliminate "not fighting" and "using a weapon."

(*Aside from the bit where "the best defense is a good pair of running shoes." Note I explicitly eliminated that.)

[razorback]

Well, something like motorcycle armor would probably be more than handful, but it really depends on situation.
I ride almost year round and always wear armor. It would be a handful. While my leg armor and jacket would protect/absorb some damage, I'm not sure about the trade off that it robs me of flexibility and speed. I'm not sure if I'd want it even if they had a knife. Even though I could absorb/deflect most slashes, the amount it decreased my speed would be detrimental.
My Vans, loose jeans, and a t-shirt (like I normally wear) would probably be optimal for most situations.

[SiuiS]

@suius

you are aware, I hope, that any point of view mentioning even only laterally "deadliest warrior" as a worthy source of information instantly loses credibility, right? :smallbiggrin:

Yes, but it wasn't a stated opinion. It was a guy getting kicked in the neck and passing out. Much better, visual evidence.


Well, sorry, no one is playing "game" or "martyr"

And again you miss the important detail there. You DO realize that the person I quote has an avatar of the Risen Martyr Prestige class from book of exalted deeds, right? Because if you think about it, risen martyr is a rather specific phrase to use for someone who is neither martyring themselves nor risen in any meaningful sense.


You are making a claim, you should back it up, it's pretty obvious.

And I have. Whether you find it sufficient isn't important to me. This thread isn't about proof of concept, and again, if you actually care to find the information, it's there. And it's in my best interests to let you look, since you obviously won't take my word for it.



Ok, so there are sutures, in the cranium, and they like... exist.

I'm not sure how should it be relevant to anything.

Same reason it's relevant that the bottom tip of the sternum ossifies into bone at around age twenty five. Ignoring the difference between a specific structure and structures of the skull in general is sloppy.

How about the reverse? Find for me an alternate reason a 12-6 elbow is illegal.



Then what's your point.

Chops, open palm strikes and whatever are legal.

Striking the neck is perfectly legal as well. Throat and spine are banned, but those are smallish part of the neck, especially in more 'bulked up' individuals.

So 'cartoid strike' or anything similar, is again, perfectly legal.

So chops to the neck are perfectly legal.

Can't state it more simply.

Carotid is anterior to the sternocleidomastoid muscle and is part of the anterior triangle that is almost universally regarded as "throat". So like I said, you answered it yourself. Which again, is apparent if you look at anatomy stuff. Skepticism is fine, but not for it's own sake.

[Spiryt]

And I have. Whether you find it sufficient isn't important to me. This thread isn't about proof of concept, and again, if you actually care to find the information, it's there. And it's in my best interests to let you look, since you obviously won't take my word for it.

Well, in such case everyone can be left with their own opinion, I guess. :smallbiggrin:

Personally I can't find much about it, save silly YT videos.



Same reason it's relevant that the bottom tip of the sternum ossifies into bone at around age twenty five. Ignoring the difference between a specific structure and structures of the skull in general is sloppy.

How about the reverse? Find for me an alternate reason a 12-6 elbow is illegal.



It's supposedly illegal because some oaf had seen some guy breaking ice blocks with 12-6 elbows or whatever. That's the legend at least.

Anyway, this rule doesn't have any sense, there's really nothing inherently more dangerous about "12-6" elbow compared to any other elbow.

The very angle being set in stone, instead being dependent on fighters position makes it pointless.

As far as sternum goes - it's a change the topic, without real connection to the the previous one. "Sloppiness" doesn't seem fair nor relevant from that reason. :smallconfused:

Sternum ossification isn't relevant here either.

The point is finding any proof of elbow strike being able to produce more serious damage to actual neuron-cranial structure (aside from the back of the head/spine), than knees, for example.

Muay Thai rules fully allow such attack, and ruination of knees and legs in general 'traditionally' stays the worst injury, ending careers etc.

From around 6:30 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0YGh4ESubI)




Carotid is anterior to the sternocleidomastoid muscle and is part of the anterior triangle that is almost universally regarded as "throat". So like I said, you answered it yourself. Which again, is apparent if you look at anatomy stuff. Skepticism is fine, but not for it's own sake.

Well, I guess it depends on definition of 'throat' then.

It's ('throat') not actually defined in Unified MMA rules in USA, so actual precedence is in effect I guess. And I've never seen anyone penalised for strikes to sternocleidomastoid, or kinda "front-side but not quite the throat".

http://www.tinygif.com/data/media/15/neck_kick.gif

[Vicki143]

When my daughter was 11 years old and the new kid in school she was attacked by 6 girls just outside the school. Luckily a man from a business across the street came over and broke it up. We then put her in Tai Kwon Do. She did not want to go but promised us she would for one month. After a week of going to classes she was a different person. Now many years later she is a second degree black belt and was an instructor for awhile. We went to a lot of tournaments over the years and in 1998 she came in 4th in the USA. First place was a beautiful little Korean girl who was magnificent. After many years of training she is very independent and especially in this world today confident of her safety and always is aware of what is around her. :smalleek:

[Morph Bark]

Well, something like motorcycle armor would probably be more than handful, but it really depends on situation.

Good piece of stick is always great 'accessory' as well. :smallbiggrin:

So... the best prepared man is a motorcyclist who either plays baseball or practices kendo so he can have a bat or bokken ready at any time with reason? :smallamused:


By the way, can wearing lenses be a bad idea in a fight? I wear glasses and would obviously take them off when going practicing (and if possible before getting into a fight; "here, hold my glasses for me"), but I've thought about it for ages to get lenses instead. Not so much for practical reasons other than that they're easier to keep clean, it's mainly for aesthetic reasons, but considering glasses came up here, figured I should ask.


When my daughter was 11 years old and the new kid in school she was attacked by 6 girls just outside the school. Luckily a man from a business across the street came over and broke it up. We then put her in Tai Kwon Do. She did not want to go but promised us she would for one month. After a week of going to classes she was a different person. Now many years later she is a second degree black belt and was an instructor for awhile. We went to a lot of tournaments over the years and in 1998 she came in 4th in the USA. First place was a beautiful little Korean girl who was magnificent. After many years of training she is very independent and especially in this world today confident of her safety and always is aware of what is around her. :smalleek:

Martial arts: it won't make you a fighting master, but with the confidence you gain from it, you won't need to be. :smallbiggrin:

[noparlpf]

I prefer to wear contacts while sparring or fighting. You have slightly better peripheral vision, and you don't have to worry about your glasses breaking.
(Of course, the darn glasses place lost the order for my contacts three months ago and they've been avoiding my calls for a while. But I'm going in tomorrow.)

[Frozen_Feet]

My ideal outfit would be hardened shoes, cut and stab resilient gloves and either overalls with some clothing beneath or a thick jacket. For pants, no particular preference - I've practiced kicks enough with jeans on to know I can pull off all the useful kicks, only the high ones are troublesome.

For the record, the above is what I'm likely to be wearing in any case, save for the gloves, which are mostly work-only.

As far as glasses vs. lenses go, I'd rather wear lenses, for two reasons: one, it's nice to see something, and two, glasses are darn expensive to replace if they break. Usually when I practice, I spar with no vision correction - I call it "hard mode". :smallbiggrin: Dunno how much real benefit there is to it. I'm not really worried about my glasses injuring my eyes - they will, most likely, get knocked off. I'm not afraid of them breaking from someone hitting my face, they're pretty much impervious to such - my fear is towards the more realistic option of them falling to the ground and then getting stepped on. (Even then, the lenses will likely be fine - but the rims will be bent past usability.)

[noparlpf]

My ideal outfit would be hardened shoes, cut and stab resilient gloves and either overalls with some clothing beneath or a thick jacket. For pants, no particular preference - I've practiced kicks enough with jeans on to know I can pull off all the useful kicks, only the high ones are troublesome.

For the record, the above is what I'm likely to be wearing in any case, save for the gloves, which are mostly work-only.

As far as glasses vs. lenses go, I'd rather wear lenses, for two reasons: one, it's nice to see something, and two, glasses are darn expensive to replace if they break. Usually when I practice, I spar with no vision correction - I call it "hard mode". :smallbiggrin: Dunno how much real benefit there is to it. I'm not really worried about my glasses injuring my eyes - they will, most likely, get knocked off. I'm not afraid of them breaking from someone hitting my face, they're pretty much impervious to such - my fear is towards the more realistic option of them falling to the ground and then getting stepped on. (Even then, the lenses will likely be fine - but the rims will be bent past usability.)

Please tell me where you buy glasses because mine are all kinds of not impervious to being hit while on my face. I've broken at least three pairs from getting hit in the face, I think. I kind of lost count of how many dozens of glasses I've broken and how.
As for me, I probably can't even spar without vision correction. My vision is so bad I don't think I'd be able to distinguish arms and hands well enough to see punches coming. Will go test this with my brother in a minute.

[Frozen_Feet]

I buy mine from Finnish shop called Instrumentarium. I always have my lenses extra-thin, made from impact-resilient glass, and chemically coated against scratching and dissolvents. I've dropped them, slept on them, have them knocked off my head and even stepped on, and the lenses have just shrugged it off. It's entirely possible nothing short of a direct strike with a hammer is enough to shatter them. I was told I could clean them with raw gasoline if I wanted to. It's the rims that bend and eventually snap due to metal fatigue.

[Morph Bark]

I buy mine from Finnish shop called Instrumentarium. I always have my lenses extra-thin, made from impact-resilient glass, and chemically coated against scratching and dissolvents. I've dropped them, slept on them, have them knocked off my head and even stepped on, and the lenses have just shrugged it off. It's entirely possible nothing short of a direct strike with a hammer is enough to shatter them. I was told I could clean them with raw gasoline if I wanted to. It's the rims that bend and eventually snap due to metal fatigue.

o.o That must be some glasses! Are they expensive? I don't suppose they're also located in other countries or have an English language website you can order from internationally?

[Frozen_Feet]

I have no idea if you can order from them internationally. My newest pair cost me 350 €, with new rims and all, though there were all sorts of discounts in place.

The reasons I use such expensive lenses are: firstly, I'm very badly nearsighted, so without making the lenses extra thin, they would be comically thick. Secondly, I work in industry, so normal glasses would get scratched by metal dust and like way too quickly.

EDIT: come to think of it, I have a pair of old glasses that are too weak to be usefull anymore. I could actually test and see how hard I need to hit to break them.

[noparlpf]

I buy mine from Finnish shop called Instrumentarium. I always have my lenses extra-thin, made from impact-resilient glass, and chemically coated against scratching and dissolvents. I've dropped them, slept on them, have them knocked off my head and even stepped on, and the lenses have just shrugged it off. It's entirely possible nothing short of a direct strike with a hammer is enough to shatter them. I was told I could clean them with raw gasoline if I wanted to. It's the rims that bend and eventually snap due to metal fatigue.

Oh yeah, the lenses usually don't get worse than a couple of mild scratches before I need new ones. It's the frames that always get destroyed. I've only ruined a couple of pairs of lenses from scratching, never actually broken any; it's the frames I've gone through three dozen of.

[SiuiS]

Usually when I practice, I spar with no vision correction - I call it "hard mode". :smallbiggrin:

I did that. I found my reactions were better when I was dealin with limbs, the abstraction helped me focus on vectors instead of details like how clenched the fist was.

Downside, I found out one of the guys who wanted to punch me had a knife secreted in his fist. Luckily, he wanted to punch someone else more, but the reply of "what, you didn't see the knife in his hand?" kinda shook my faith in fighting without glasses.

[Brother Oni]

With regard to glasses versus contacts, it depends on the situation in my opinion. In a street fight, keep them on - you want to be able to see if he has any weapons or he has mates coming up to help him.

In sparring, it depends on the level of contact - light/full contact where the head is legal target area, don't even wear contacts. Getting hit in the face can causes the eyelid to rub against the eyeball, which contacts will exacerbate and causes either excessive tearing (lacrymation), the contacts getting lost into the eyesocket (never a fun thing to try and retrieve) or simply falling out (I've watches a light contact kickboxing tournament where almost every other fight had to be stopped so that the referee could retrieve a lost contact off the tarpaulin).

In sparring where the head is off limits, then wear whatever you like, although I'd advise against glasses due to the chance of accidental breakage.


About the toughened glasses - try looking for prescription safety glasses. My company provides free PPE and I got safety glasses with lenses made of polycarbonate, which is pretty much the same sort of stuff used for bullet resistant glass.
I'd be surprised if they weren't locally available unless your region has no heavy or scientific industry.

[dehro]

cut and stab resilient gloves

do these exist? by which I mean "other than the kind of work gloves that would hurt you as much as your target should you throw a punch"

[noparlpf]

About the toughened glasses - try looking for prescription safety glasses. My company provides free PPE and I got safety glasses with lenses made of polycarbonate, which is pretty much the same sort of stuff used for bullet resistant glass.
I'd be surprised if they weren't locally available unless your region has no heavy or scientific industry.

For me it's the frames, not the lenses, that are almost always the problem. Where can I get adamantine frames?