Arcane caster tank?

[Invader]

I have a friend who would like to play an arcane caster type of tank. Is there anything that can kind of fill this roll? No ToB, MoI, or psionics.

[LTwerewolf]

Most regular casters can achieve this, but the most obvious ones are warmage (minihb) and duskblade(phb2).

[HunterColt22]

Most regular casters can achieve this, but the most obvious ones are warmage (minihb) and duskblade(phb2).


Don't you mean Complete Arcane for warmage?

[LTwerewolf]

Don't you mean Complete Arcane for warmage?

check page 14 of mini HB. It's in both books.

[Eldariel]

check page 14 of mini HB. It's in both books.

Complete Arcane is the newer printing of the class, it's considered an update on the Miniatures Handbook version.


But yeah, Warmage has nothing really making it a good tank; it lacks defensive spells, it can only wear mediocre armor and it's not very durable by default. Duskblade is a fine option as is Wizard or Sorcerer built in such a way; their defensive options are second to none when truly brought to bear. But for a more traditional "I actually get hit"-type of tank Duskblade is certainly the easiest option.

[LTwerewolf]

Here (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/battle-caster--183/) is a way for a warmage to use heavy armor.

As for defensive spells, basic wizards/sorcerers are your best bet, but at lower levels they tend to lack the ability to take much punishment. At higher levels they are pretty much capable of taking anything they're prepared for.

Also, I don't recall there being any differences between CArc and minihb though I could be wrong on that.

[Jane_Smith]

There is also two prc's that mesh well for a tanky wizard or sorcerer in complete arcane and mage, the Argent Savant (buffs mage armor, shield, wall of force, and energy resistance to force itself, something that is extremely hard to come by) and the Abjurant Champion, which FURTHER buffs mage armor/shield/etc (stacks I believe with argent savant), doubles all your mage armor/shield/abjuration durations freely, lets you x/day freely quicken abjuration spells, you can burn threw spell slots to get buffs to your ac, saves, skill checks, attacks, or the like, and lastly; it also gives d10 hit dice and good bab progression with FULL spellcasting progression over 5 levels.

So you could go 5 Wizard/10 Argent Savant/5 Abjurant Champion and use spells like Improved Mage Armor, Shield, Mind Blank, and quickened counterspell-used dispel magics/anti magic-fields/etc to lock down enemy casters and be almost untouchable against physical attacks - while wearing nothing but clothes. Fun build at the very least.

EDIT: Plus the best tanks can cast forcecage to keep enemies locked in with them >:3 Hows "THAT" for crowd control?!

EDIT EDIT: EVEN BETTER! Argent savant is only 5 levels as well, not 10! You could go 5/5 and take both prc's and be tanky as all holy heck. You could squeeze in another 5 level prc before epic levels.

[Invader]

Duskblade was my first thought as well and I think that's the flavor of character he was going for more than just a caster that casts lots of defensive spells. I should also note that we're starting at level 1 so it would have to be viable starting out.

[Jeff the Green]

Most regular casters can achieve this, but the most obvious ones are warmage (minihb) and duskblade(phb2).

No. There are two things a tank needs to do: be an attractive target and be a resilient target. Warmage is not good at the first. Duskblade is better, but still not great at the second.

There are a few good ways to go about doing this. First is summons, probably through malconvoker. It doesn't matter much if your summons take damage, since they'll go away soon anyway and you can always get more. Another is as a gish, perhaps as a wizard/spellsword/abjurant champion. In this case, abjurations such as luminous armor (BoED) and shield, and illusions like (improved) mirror image are your friends. If ToB were allowed, a Crusader dip for Iron Guard's Glare and Thicket of Blades would be nice.

[Hirax]

What level are you starting at? A caster tank won't really come online as a true tank until mid to later levels. The classic wizard6/swiftblade9/abjurant champion5 makes a great tank, for instance, but it takes so long to get all the swiftblade's (EX) miss chances and abjurant champ's AC boosting abilities. Wizard5/incantatrix4 using metamagic effect for persist or clerics with DMM persist can also make good tanks with the right spell selection, but again those don't come online very early.

[Eldariel]

Duskblade was my first thought as well and I think that's the flavor of character he was going for more than just a caster that casts lots of defensive spells. I should also note that we're starting at level 1 so it would have to be viable starting out.

Gish is the other option then; taking the first level in the martial class allows you to get by on the low levels quite well and then get your defensive casting mojo going. But Duskblade is solid, if a bit limited on the spellcasting front.

Abrupt Jaunt Conjurer could work to cover the first levels but without Faerie Mysteries Initiate or high Con & some AC stacking he'd only be good against melee types. Still, "tanking" by making enemies hit the air is decidedly a Wizard's way about it.

[Invader]

What level are you starting at? A caster tank won't really come online as a true tank until mid to later levels. The classic wizard6/swiftblade9/abjurant champion5 makes a great tank, for instance, but it takes so long to get all the swiftblade's (EX) miss chances and abjurant champ's AC boosting abilities. Wizard5/incantatrix4 using metamagic effect for persist or clerics with DMM persist can also make good tanks with the right spell selection, but again those don't come online very early.

1st level, the more I'm looking the more it looks like Duskblade is the best choice.

[Jeff the Green]

Abrupt Jaunt Conjurer could work to cover the first levels but without Faerie Mysteries Initiate or high Con & some AC stacking he'd only be good against melee types. Still, "tanking" by making enemies hit the air is decidedly a Wizard's way about it.

Yeah. The analogy is a Paladin tank versus a Ninja tank in FFXI. Arcane tanks don't have a ton of HP and DR; they have illusions and abjurations up so that they don't get hit.

[LTwerewolf]

No. There are two things a tank needs to do: be an attractive target and be a resilient target. Warmage is not good at the first. Duskblade is better, but still not great at the second.

There are a few good ways to go about doing this. First is summons, probably through malconvoker. It doesn't matter much if your summons take damage, since they'll go away soon anyway and you can always get more. Another is as a gish, perhaps as a wizard/spellsword/abjurant champion. In this case, abjurations such as luminous armor (BoED) and shield, and illusions like (improved) mirror image are your friends. If ToB were allowed, a Crusader dip for Iron Guard's Glare and Thicket of Blades would be nice.

But by tank he didn't mean "someone that casts from the back and happens to be good at taking damage." He was more referring to the more traditional "guy wearing the heavy armor."

[Eldariel]

But by tank he didn't mean "someone that casts from the back and happens to be good at taking damage." He was more referring to the more traditional "guy wearing the heavy armor."

How do you figure?

[LTwerewolf]

How do you figure?

Because d&d effectively doesn't have traditional tanking. When most new players come to d&d and think "tank" they don't think "wizard that can trick others into not attacking them" or "wizard that avoids damage." They more think "guy with the heavy armor that uses it to deflect incoming hits."

[Eldariel]

Because d&d effectively doesn't have traditional tanking. When most new players come to d&d and think "tank" they don't think "wizard that can trick others into not attacking them" or "wizard that avoids damage." They more think "guy with the heavy armor that uses it to deflect incoming hits."

How do you know what his friend meant tho? Do you know the person in question?

And the "guy with heavy armor that uses it to deflect incoming hits", isn't that precisely traditional tanking? While the type that works in D&D is the "being someone accessible to attack capable of deflecting them off, and capable of making myself hard to bypass", not either MMO or "traditional" tanking.

[Invader]

Because d&d effectively doesn't have traditional tanking. When most new players come to d&d and think "tank" they don't think "wizard that can trick others into not attacking them" or "wizard that avoids damage." They more think "guy with the heavy armor that uses it to deflect incoming hits."

Why would you assume I'm a new player to D&D :smallamused:

For what it's worth most people assume that a "tank" is someone who wears heavy armor and can take a lot of hits, much like... well a tank, funny how that works. :smallwink:

I'd also say D&D absolutely has "traditional tanking" and always has, and a traditional tank can be very effective but this is all getting off topic...

[killianh]

Fighter 1/ Wizard 6/Spellsword 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/Paragnostic Apostle 2 with domain power and martial ACFs on the wizard makes a nice gish that can party buff like a madman and battlefield control to a decent degree

[Eldariel]

Why would you assume I'm a new player to D&D :smallamused:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'd assume he was assuming your friend was new because of the nature of request in and of itself.


For what it's worth most people assume that a "tank" is someone who wears heavy armor and can take a lot of hits, much like... well a tank, funny how that works. :smallwink:

My point was that it really doesn't matter whether the armor is made of magical energy or metal and whether it deflects hits or makes them miss :smalltongue: There are many ways to be hard to hit after all. Making others hit you is more complex but making them dead is a fairly efficient means of course.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot to write the reason I actually replied: How does he feel about the latter? That is, using an armor made of magic, e.g. Greater Luminous Armor later? 'cause you could certainly start Ranger, Fighter or whatever and head into Wizard-levels then if he wants to be a Wizard-Gish as opposed to a Duskblade.

[RFLS]

I don't know specifically what you're after, but a build I've been toying with for a while is Crusader 1/Sorcerer 2/Crusader 1/Sorcerer 1/Runesmith 1/JPM 10/Something else 4. You lose more caster levels than is ideal, but I feel like it could be an entertaining gish. (note- it requires DM fiat to allow runesmith's level 1 ability to work with spontaneous casting)

[Godskook]

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

Feats:
1.Improved Unarmed Strike
H.Combat Casting
3.Practiced Caster(Sorcerer)
6.Ascetic Mage
9.Arcane Preparation(So you can learn Greater Luminous Armor)
12.Free
15.Free
18.Free

You got Cha to saves and AC, massive armor and shield bonuses via spells. On top of this, you can stack several sources of Temp-HP, to achieve better tankiness than most vanilla tanks.

[gallagher]

Warblade/Wizard/Jade Phoenix Mage... aka WWJPMFTW

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Because d&d effectively doesn't have traditional tanking. When most new players come to d&d and think "tank" they don't think "wizard that can trick others into not attacking them" or "wizard that avoids damage." They more think "guy with the heavy armor that uses it to deflect incoming hits."

Yeah, stack mirror image with blink and even a squishy wizard can wade into melee.

I ran a defensive abjurer once. I wasn't optimized for melee, just party buffs, but I was really hard to kill. Day-long mage armor, high constitution, and Toughness make for a really solid mage.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Savage Bard.

More specifically, go Dragonborn Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs), use the Half-Humans variant in RoD, with two flaws (Dragon Mag has some very fitting ones) get Dreadful Wrath, Nymph's Kiss, and Entangling Exhalation. Replace Inspire Courage with Inspire Awe from Dragon Magic. Replace Fascinate with Healing Hymn in Complete Champion (works with Cure Minor Wounds). Replace Bardic Knowledge with Bardic Knack in PH2. If Dragonborn, see about getting the Spellscale Bard 3 substitution level allowed.

Go Bard 8/ Nightmare Spinner 1/ Dread Witch 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Dread Witch 4/ Nightmare Spinner 4 (DW 1 and NS 1 asap, later take them in whichever order is preferred).

Feats should include Melodic Casting, Doomspeak, Imperious Command, Fell Frighten Spell, Practical Metamagic: Fell Frighten, Ancestral Relic for a custom Runestaff, etc. Once the party gets several weeks of downtime between adventures visit the Otyugh Hole (CS) to gain Menacing Demeanor, if you don't want to play it out just pay 3,000 gp to say you did it. Skill Tricks based on Tumble and Balance are pretty good, and definitely get Never Outnumbered. Max UMD and with a +19 bonus you can put any spells you want on your Runestaff and make the DC 20 UMD check each day to attune it to cast those spells via Bard spell slots, so you can get any defensive spells you want.

Between debuffs (Shaken + Entangled, usually Frightened or worse in just a few levels), the Bard's array of spells (Mirror Image), and eventually access to the Sorcerer list via Sublime Chord, he should make a very decent tank. Spamming Entangling Exhalation will definitely make foes view him as an immediate threat that must be dealt with, but with -4 to hit for the two debuffs they won't hit very often, especially if they can't even reach anyone.

[gorfnab]

Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3 - Melee Bard
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3 - Ranged Bard
Bard 8/ Fighter 1/ Eldritch Knight 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 3 - Simple Melee Bard
Bard 8/ Fighter 1/ Knight Phantom 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Knight Phantom 3 - Eberron Melee Bard

[Wise Green Bean]

Bard is pretty close to what you're thinking of, as is duskblade. You can get some really nice stuff as a wizard, but it's distinctly a 'later in the game' thing. Spellthief also kind of works for your concept. Thing is, it's not really easy to make anything you'd call tank-ish at level 1 that casts arcane spells. Sorcerer paladin gishes work for that, but again, that means multiclassing. Even D6 HD(or is duskblade D8?) don't hold up real long in a melee. Better pump that CON...

[Jane_Smith]

Or you can just go Mindbender from complete arcane and enthrall ogres/trolls/etc permanently to be the tanks FOR you, not to mention create massive threatened areas your enemys have to wade past in order to even get near you. 1-3 large creatures with spiked chains or polearms? Yes plz.

[Kudaku]

Since you didn't specifically rule out Pathfinder, I figured I'd suggest an alternate option that doesn't rely on various hard-to-find books. All the rules needed to make and play this character are available online.
The Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) is a spellcaster that focuses on combining melee combat and spells, and can get very tanky indeed if you use the right spells. The original concept is a quite spiky damage dealer, but if you use spell combat to cast blur, mirror image etc instead of touch spells for extra damage you can build a very viable tank.
He starts off using light armor and eventually progresses to being able to cast in medium and heavy armor.
A dexterity-based build focusing on Dervish Dancer and utilizing Celestial Armor can get a fairly ridiculous base AC, the various defensive arcane spells is icing on the cake.

[KillianHawkeye]

My specialist Abjurer/Human Paragon/Master Specialist with high Con is a decent tank, although my group is pretty low-optimization. It's still fun to play a Wizard with almost as much AC and HP as the Fighters, tho.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Even in core only, it's very doable and simple. Dwarf or Gnome Transmuter Wizard w/ 1 level dip in Fighter (possibly 1st level, though then you get your x4 on a vastly inferior set of skills...) into Eldritch Knight. Using polymorph and mage armor. Actually, if you mostly just buff then fight, Barb 1 as your 1st level could be quite good, instead of using Fighter at all.

Highest stat is Con. Int is 2nd highest, but it only needs to be an 18 by the time 7th CL rolls around, plenty of time to buy a +2 headband.

You just turn into Annish Hags, Treants, etc... for big AC and reach. Grab the trip line of feats and you've got some lockdown, too.

[Sayt]

FWIW, the Runesmith gives you casting in armor without arcane spell failure with full casting progression and two good saves. It also lets you hand out spells to your party members!

[Hiro Protagonest]

I can't believe nobody made a suggestion for the guy to hide inside a metal box on wheels and cast blasty spells through a small window.

But, uh, otherwise, MMO tanking doesn't exist. In D&D, you have crowd control. And wizards are the kings, nay, emperors, of crowd control. Read Treantmonk's guide to GOD wizards.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I can't believe nobody made a suggestion for the guy to hide inside a metal box on wheels and cast blasty spells through a small window.

But, uh, otherwise, MMO tanking doesn't exist. In D&D, you have crowd control. And wizards are the kings, nay, emperors, of crowd control. Read Treantmonk's guide to GOD wizards.

Cast Animate Object on that metal box so it's mobile. You can buff it with (Greater) Mage Armor and similar. Get UMD ranks and give your familiar a Wand of Repair Light Damage to use on the box whenever it takes a hit.

Forget the small window, put a periscope on it and a hole to stick his finger out for line of effect. Or even better, put a tiny window in the top leading to a second room above with windows, cast Project Image into the second room and cast spells through the windows via that.

[Gnaeus]

You can get some really nice stuff as a wizard, but it's distinctly a 'later in the game' thing.

Why do people keep saying this? Wizard tanks are pretty clearly viable no later than level 3.

A level 3 fighter has an average of 21 hp +con x3
A level 3 wizard with False Life and a Toad has an average of 20.5 hp+ con x3. (or kill the toad and go Abrupt Jaunt, which is clearly better if allowed)

Martial Wizard variant gives you a fighter feat. Improved init is nice, or an exotic weapon to + your damage. Maybe a sharktooth staff or greathammer or spiked chain.

Fighter using 2h weapon in full plate (1500 gp) has 18 AC +1 maybe for dex.
Wizard who spent 2k gold on a ring of protection +1 has 15 AC + dex + Shield spell if he has a round to cast.

Lets say we have a specialist wizard banning enchantment and evocation. L3 (core) we get:
L1: Mage Armor, Shield x2, (Mount or protection from evil or grease or enlarge person)
L2: False Life x2, Mirror Image or Blur

This is really fairly decent for the Tankish role. It isn't better than the fighter at this level (unless abrupt jaunt) but it is pretty darn close. It is already better in melee than the weaker tanks, like monk or TWF ranger, probably similar to paladin. At level 5 Heroism + GMW + Vampiric Touch + Haste + Displacement all join the party.

[Deth Muncher]

But, uh, otherwise, MMO tanking doesn't exist. In D&D, you have crowd control. And wizards are the kings, nay, emperors, of crowd control. Read Treantmonk's guide to GOD wizards.

While I disagree with your first part, the second part is definitely true - it's much easier to go for a battlefield control caster than a tank. However...


Yeah, stack mirror image with blink and even a squishy wizard can wade into melee.

I ran a defensive abjurer once. I wasn't optimized for melee, just party buffs, but I was really hard to kill. Day-long mage armor, high constitution, and Toughness make for a really solid mage.

This is where we start getting into the bread and butter here. Back in the day when I played WoW, I was focusing on turning my Mage into a Dodge-Tank. What does that mean? In WoW, it meant pumping my Dodge rank so that everything would miss me. In D&D, though, there's a few simple things you can do to achieve the same.

As Thomar said, you're looking at Mirror Image, Blink, and Mage Armor as some key points. If you're limited to Core, these plus the Ring of Forceshield, a decent Dexterity score and casting stat of your choice (plus Constitution, if you have enough good scores, though you may be able to fix that via a magic item as well) gives you +4 from MA, +2 from the Ring (though you could make THAT a +4 if you went for the spell Shield instead), and then 50% Miss Chance from Blink (and a neat +2 to hit, though a 20% chance of losing your attack) and up to a total of 8 Mirror Images of you running around. That's pretty awesome, and if you've got an 18 in Dex (via base scores, racial bonuses, items, etc), you're looking at a minimum 20AC, with no ASF chance, plus the blinking and the shadow clones.

"But wait!" I hear you cry, "You're still not addressing why an enemy would go after a caster who's really hard to hit! That seems like lousy target priority!" Well, you'd be right if the caster just putzed around and did nothing. However, with that sexy Dex score of yours, you could get off some really nice Ranged Touch spells, like Ray of Fire, etc and suddenly make yourself a big problem for people.

Now, if you get OUT of Core, you also get such lovely things as the Greater versions of many of those spells, like Greater Mage Armor (Complete Arcane) which nets you a +6AC, or Greater/Improved Blink (printed various times in Complete Arcane/Divine and Unapproachable East), which gets rid of your chance to lose your attack, as well as granting you the ability to prepare an action to 100% effectively phase out and away from an attack, among other things. Also from Complete Arcane come the Orb spells, which are, of course, lovely things for Ranged Touch and are a staple of many Direct Damage builds.

Now, you can do more silly things like having a Rod of Many Wands stuffed with Orb spells or have magic items which have various spells from above keyed to them as your budget allows to take off the load from your spellcasting, and something else I'd mention is the Metamagic feat Reach Spell, which turns any Touch range spell into a Ranged Touch attack, but those are extra things to add to your build if and when you can spare.

EDIT: Oh yeah, thanks to the guy above me for mentioning Abrupt Jaunt - definitely hit that up, unless you plan on using a lot of Metamagic and want to play a Sorceror, in which case you go for the Rapid Metamagic ACF.

EDIT EDIT: Also, this is completely build-free advice - there are PrCs that boost certain aspects of this, as well as any of the gish classes usually having random bonuses and allowing you to (usually) ignore ACF so you can wear real people armor, but I opted for what I do, which is play a Sorceror.

EDIT EDIT EDIT: I forgot Blur! That's a free 20% miss chance. I don't know if miss chance stacks, though, I forget if that's one of those that get the special exception to the "bonuses with the same name don't stack" flavor of rule.

[Grim Reader]

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer is an option. BaB is a step below Duskblade, but you do get 9th levels spells as a consolation :smalltongue:

Slot in heritage feat and a level of Sand Shaper at some point to expand the extremly restricted list of spells known.

[Hiro Protagonest]

While I disagree with your first part, the second part is definitely true - it's much easier to go for a battlefield control caster than a tank. However...



This is where we start getting into the bread and butter here. Back in the day when I played WoW, I was focusing on turning my Mage into a Dodge-Tank. What does that mean? In WoW, it meant pumping my Dodge rank so that everything would miss me. In D&D, though, there's a few simple things you can do to achieve the same.

As Thomar said, you're looking at Mirror Image, Blink, and Mage Armor as some key points. If you're limited to Core, these plus the Ring of Forceshield, a decent Dexterity score and casting stat of your choice (plus Constitution, if you have enough good scores, though you may be able to fix that via a magic item as well) gives you +4 from MA, +2 from the Ring (though you could make THAT a +4 if you went for the spell Shield instead), and then 50% Miss Chance from Blink (and a neat +2 to hit, though a 20% chance of losing your attack) and up to a total of 8 Mirror Images of you running around. That's pretty awesome, and if you've got an 18 in Dex (via base scores, racial bonuses, items, etc), you're looking at a minimum 20AC, with no ASF chance, plus the blinking and the shadow clones.

"But wait!" I hear you cry, "You're still not addressing why an enemy would go after a caster who's really hard to hit! That seems like lousy target priority!" Well, you'd be right if the caster just putzed around and did nothing. However, with that sexy Dex score of yours, you could get off some really nice Ranged Touch spells, like Ray of Fire, etc and suddenly make yourself a big problem for people.

Now, if you get OUT of Core, you also get such lovely things as the Greater versions of many of those spells, like Greater Mage Armor (Complete Arcane) which nets you a +6AC, or Greater/Improved Blink (printed various times in Complete Arcane/Divine and Unapproachable East), which gets rid of your chance to lose your attack, as well as granting you the ability to prepare an action to 100% effectively phase out and away from an attack, among other things. Also from Complete Arcane come the Orb spells, which are, of course, lovely things for Ranged Touch and are a staple of many Direct Damage builds.

Now, you can do more silly things like having a Rod of Many Wands stuffed with Orb spells or have magic items which have various spells from above keyed to them as your budget allows to take off the load from your spellcasting, and something else I'd mention is the Metamagic feat Reach Spell, which turns any Touch range spell into a Ranged Touch attack, but those are extra things to add to your build if and when you can spare.

EDIT: Oh yeah, thanks to the guy above me for mentioning Abrupt Jaunt - definitely hit that up, unless you plan on using a lot of Metamagic and want to play a Sorceror, in which case you go for the Rapid Metamagic ACF.

EDIT EDIT: Also, this is completely build-free advice - there are PrCs that boost certain aspects of this, as well as any of the gish classes usually having random bonuses and allowing you to (usually) ignore ACF so you can wear real people armor, but I opted for what I do, which is play a Sorceror.

EDIT EDIT EDIT: I forgot Blur! That's a free 20% miss chance. I don't know if miss chance stacks, though, I forget if that's one of those that get the special exception to the "bonuses with the same name don't stack" flavor of rule.

Tank means stacking up aggro. It doesn't mean nearly impossible to hit.

[Deth Muncher]

Tank means stacking up aggro. It doesn't mean nearly impossible to hit.

Really? My understanding that tanking was making people want to kill you, and being unkillable. Hence why I'd mentioned the "pimp yo damage" portion - because if you're doing a load of damage, anyone on the enemy team is gonna want you dead. And if they can't hit you...you can't be dead.

EDIT: Admittedly, I didn't focus on mentioning HOW to pimp your damage quite as much as I should have, but it's simple enough to look into Mailman-type builds for that portion of it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

In most MMO's, it's about keeping opponents focused on you and being able to withstand their damage for the length of the fight. WoW has certainly seen its share of gimmick tanking, from the group that 5-manned Gruul with an unhittable rogue tank to fights that are designed to require a nonstandard class to tank a foe (Illidan, the HKM fight, etc.). However, traditional tanking sometimes goes by the wayside, considering such fights as the Shade of Aran and many others which didn't even use an aggro mechanic. Then there are sometimes games which completely throw traditional roles out the window, such as Guild Wars 2 which I've played quite a bit recently.

Regardless, none of this pertains to D&D. Characters don't have a reliable means of 'holding aggro' without shattering suspension of disbelief, and usually can't reliably withstand attacks from multiple opponents round after round. What this game does have are crowd control effects, debuffs, save-or-lose/die effects, and strategic considerations that allow a party to avoid the majority of an encounter's threats. D&D lacks the mechanics of MMO-style tanking, especially in the dedicated healer role that it necessitates, so not allowing opponents to fight back is how the game works. If that weren't the case, then this would not be the same game, and people who have played that style of MMO who wish to bring it into D&D are simply mistaken and need to be informed, rather than accommodated.

[Deth Muncher]

Regardless, none of this pertains to D&D. Characters don't have a reliable means of 'holding aggro' without shattering suspension of disbelief, and usually can't reliably withstand attacks from multiple opponents round after round. What this game does have are crowd control effects, debuffs, save-or-lose/die effects, and strategic considerations that allow a party to avoid the majority of an encounter's threats.

Again, I don't support the first part, but wholeheartedly support the second part.

Also, as a side note, I'm not trying to advocate my "Dodge Tank" method as more viable than the Battlefield Control style caster - I was merely providing a take on the "tank" style response, as opposed to the "You're doing this wrong, do this instead" mentality that tends to show up on the Intertubes. Battlefield Control is definitely a stronger way to go, but if you're not in a high-op game, you don't necessarily HAVE to bring out the orbital laser defense grid when a simple rocket launcher will do the trick. :smallwink:

Also, I'm glad you qualified that as "reliable means of holding aggro without shattering the suspension of disbelief" because I was gonna drop Knight on you so faaaaaast.

[KillianHawkeye]

I agree with Deth Muncher in that tanking is definitely possible in a D&D framework, although not exactly how it works in an MMO. It's all about getting an opponent's attention and then being able to withstand their attacks, right?

Here's an example: my group fought against a hydra a couple of weeks ago. I'm playing a dwarven barbarian. I use an axe and shield, so I don't do as much damage as the other frontline fighters in the group, but I have one of the highest ACs, and with high Con and a d12 HD I have the highest HP as well. So my strategy was to use Fighting Defensively and charge the hydra in order to trigger as many AoOs as possible, the logic being that I am difficult to hit and have plenty of HP to soak the hits that get through my defenses, then once the monster is out of AoOs it will be safe for the other warriors to charge in.

That's tanking.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I agree with Deth Muncher in that tanking is definitely possible in a D&D framework, although not exactly how it works in an MMO. It's all about getting an opponent's attention and then being able to withstand their attacks, right?

Here's an example: my group fought against a hydra a couple of weeks ago. I'm playing a dwarven barbarian. I use an axe and shield, so I don't do as much damage as the other frontline fighters in the group, but I have one of the highest ACs, and with high Con and a d12 HD I have the highest HP as well. So my strategy was to use Fighting Defensively and charge the hydra in order to trigger as many AoOs as possible, the logic being that I am difficult to hit and have plenty of HP to soak the hits that get through my defenses, then once the monster is out of AoOs it will be safe for the other warriors to charge in.

That's tanking.

Wh-wha?

1. He gets only one AoO against you. You only took one action that provoked, and that was charging.
2. If a fighter can't withstand one AoO, something is wrong.

[Jane_Smith]

Yeah but unless he has combat reflexes he can only make one attack of opportunity a round. Unless hydras have something unique for that. So the dwarf is taking/deflecting the aoo for the rogues/etc to run into position.

[KillianHawkeye]

Wh-wha?

1. He gets only one AoO against you. You only took one action that provoked, and that was charging.
2. If a fighter can't withstand one AoO, something is wrong.

Well the DM ruled that he got an AoO with each head as if they were separate creatures. We play it fast and loose like that.

[Jane_Smith]

Makes sense. Heh, would be fun to make all the hydra heads individual creatures with there own stats/hp, if they die, they regrow as two, etc, all rooted to a single lower body/space. Anyway;


You could also "tank" in a sense with necromancy. False life spells, lichdom later on for immunity to sneaks/crits/poisons/etc, army of meatshield skeletons that provoke attacks of opportunity and threaten hundreds of spots later in the game, even if they die quickly, the enemy cant just charge threw 20+ skeletons. Ontop of that you get vampiric touch/etc spells to keep you in the running. Perhaps dread necromancer? Take the flaw slow healing, and cure spells/etc used against you do -50% damage. Its kinda hilarious.

You could also become a lifedrinker, from book of vile darkness. You deal negative levels with touchs/melee attacks and store them for massive stat boosts or temporary hit points. Imagine that with a lich's touch?

[TuggyNE]

Well the DM ruled that he got an AoO with each head as if they were separate creatures. We play it fast and loose like that.

Sadly, that's not actually fast and loose. That is exactly what the hydra gets: provoking an AoO enables attacking with all heads. "Feats
A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity."

So yes, hydras have Combat Reflexes, but it doesn't actually give them the usual effect; it's even better.

[KillianHawkeye]

Sadly, that's not actually fast and loose.

It is when we go with the ruling on the field rather than stopping to look things up. The fact that we happened to get it right is irrelevent. It also has nothing to do with the point I was making with my hydra example.

[dextercorvia]

Just go Wizard all the way. It is remarkably easy to soak 'attacks' from stunned or unconscious creatures. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, you can tank as a wizard from level 1. You are better off gishing than tanking, because level 1 is rocket tag, and you have ICBMs as a class feature, but they are thematically similar roles.

[Endarire]

Savage Aasimar (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) Wizard. PrCs optional.

Use alter self to become a Ravid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ravid.htm) for at least 30 minutes. Use mirror image, shield, mage armor, and other abilities to taste.

Things get more nuts (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=519.0) with polymorph.

There's also the Grappling Wizard/Grapplemancer (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=13119).

So yes, it's possible.

[jaybird]

Wizard/Abjurant Champion/Swiftblade is a gish build I'm particularly fond of.