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Temotei
2012-10-02, 03:55 PM
Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III:
Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!


Chat thread three is here and with it, a whole fifty pages of fun and pink-orange-yellow fruits! Whoo! :smalltongue:

Any entries for contests should be entered in the current contest and discussed here. That is, anything other than entries goes here. Also, anyone who enters the contests may have their classes evaluated for what "tier" it's in by Morph Bark here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245701). This has no bearing on the contest, however, so keep making what you like.

For those of you who are fans of the Pathfinder system (sometimes called 3.P), please refer to the Pathfinder Grab Bag Competition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?293472-Pathfinder-Grab-Bag-Competition-Chat-Thread-II-New-Thread-smell-included!).

Current Contest - Will Breed for Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?367155-Base-Class-Contest-XXIV-Will-Breed-for-Class)

Past Contests



Contest
Name
First Place
Winner


I
The Light Beckons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8008389)
Twilight Caster
Owrtho


II
Altar of Naught (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8591867)
Ebon Initiate
ErrantX


III
Can I Borrow That? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9411886)
Hemoscribe
Morph Bark


IV
Tipping the Scale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10075276#post10075276)
Gambler
PairO'Dice Lost


V
You're MIND! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10504199)
Mindwarped
dragonjek


VI
Let's Play Dress Up! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199119)
Stylist
Cipherthe3vil


VII
You've Been PUNK'D! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206927)
Generator
ErrantX


VIII
One Small Step for a Contest...One Giant Step for Contestkind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216894)
Zodiac
Derjuin


IX
Better Than it Sounds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12291460)
Farmer
Derjuin


X
Name That Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230747)
Tempest Warlord
Silva Stormrage


XI
Big Money Weave a Mighty Web (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237024)
Companion
titanreaver


XII
Race Race (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244379)
Son of Man
Morph Bark


XIII
On a Whim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250826)
Cycle Warden
sirpercival


XIV
Champions and Mooks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257051)
Ley Engineer
sirpercival


XV
Lights! Camera! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14312272)
Extractor
sirpercival


XVI
Doing What We Must Because We Can (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270292)
Astronomer
sirpercival


XVII
Heroes of Note: Keeping it Trill (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278523)
TreüthSyngër
BelGareth


XVIII
Crazy Hobos Everywhere (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15464432)
Panphobic
sirpercival


XIX
Inner Might (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301714)
Jinnblood
Zaydos


XX
Fables and Mythos and Tales, Oh My (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16437957)
Tall Tale
Zaydos


XXI
Can I Get Some Booze From the Crowd? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16826376)
Intoxicanter
Zaydos


XXII
Taking Pixars of Dreamworks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?343354-Base-Class-Contest-XXII-Taking-Pixars-of-Dreamworks)
Mecha Ace
Jester of Doom


XXIII
Armageddon Ready (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357758-Base-Class-Contest-XXIII-Armageddon-Ready)
Doomsayer
Zaydos



Past Chat Threads



Thread
Subtitle


I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144172)
-


II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181782)
-

Tavar
2012-10-02, 04:04 PM
Cross posting so that this isn't lost in the thread transfer.

Whelp, let's get to it.

Thoughts on the Fluff:
Couple things stand out: First off, 'Foolish Fools' is a bit redundant. Chose one.

Secondly, the order of the sections is off, and you're missing some of the sections.

Thoughts on the Mechanics:




Hit Die: d8
:sniped Table:

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Shade Channelers are proficient with all simple weapons and one martial weapon of their choice (Usually a scythe), chosen at the first level. They are proficient in all light armors and with all shields except for the tower shield.

Main thing I notice here is that it's pretty much the same chassis as the Cleric. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but that can provide a modest boost in power, as it gives full casters more options.




Spells :snip:
Since he is not expending his own energy in casting these spells he is much less impaired if caught in an affect that limits his magic. If the Shade Channeler is under an affect that negates his spell casting but only targets him (Such as a pair of anti magic manacles or an anti magic ray spell) he can still cast spells. If he is under an affect that limits the casting in an area (Such as an anti magic field) his spells are suppressed and unusable like normal.
:snip:
The Shade Channeler's spells are neither arcane or divine, they do not have arcane spell failure though.
The first effect is pretty powerful: might want to tone down or excise it. The secondary effect isn't so much powerful as it is troublesome. Why not just have them be Arcane effects that aren't subject to Spell Failure?



Spirit Channeling: :snip:

The Shade Channeler does not have a spell list like normal casters. Instead whenever he refreshes his spirit energy he calls certain spells that he will have available for the day. For every spell that the Shade Channeler calls for that day he must expend Spirit Points equal to the spell level of the spell. He may never call more spells available per spell level than his charisma modifier. Thus a Shade Channeler with an 18 in charisma would only be able to call 4 spells from each spell level (4 first levels spells, 4 second level spells, etc). The Shade Channeler may call any spell from the necromancy school or any spell from the conjuration or divination school that is on Wizard/Sorcerer spell list. In addition, at first level the Shade Channeler can choose to call spells from an additional school on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, either, Evocation Illusion, Enchantment or Abjuration. Once the Shade Channeler makes this choice it can't be changed even with a wish or a miracle. Finally, the Shade Channeler can choose any spell that specifically enhances undead or animation of undead. Thus he could choose desecrate since it helps animating undead but not bull's strength as that can help all creatures not just undead.
Okay, it's a point based caster, with a somewhat limited spell list. A couple edits I made to improve clarity(imo) are made in red.

Personally? I think this is a bit powerful: conjuration is an extremely powerful school, and necromancy has some good stuff as well. Divination tends to be more variable, depending on the DM's rules, but it's still quite good as well. adding another school on top of this? Very, very powerful. Combined with a power point system of casting, as well as an Euridite method of spells prepared, and I think this is horribly overpowered. I'd say you need to reduce some combination of spells known, unique spells per day, and power points.

Oh, and technically right now Spirit points never disipate. That means every time you rest when you aren't exhausted, you're increasing your spirit point pool. This is game breaking and needs to be fixed.

Though, I thought I should ask, did you intend to leave transmutation out of the list of schools available to chose?


As a Shade Channeler gains power based on the recently deceased in the world they gain more power when death's are above average and less when deaths are below average. If a Shade Channeler spends significant time in an area of great death he also can harvest more energy if he replenishes his Spirit Points within the next 24 hours. Similarly if he spends significant time in an area of low death his power declines. This is up to a DM to decide but I will make a table to illustrate some guidelines.


{table=head]Event|Spirit Point %
Spending an hour near a recent (Within the week) small scale battlefield|120%
Spending an hour near a recent (Within the week) large scale battlefield|150%
Spending full day in a large country where death is either non existent or very very minimal |25%
Spending a full day in a particular city where death is either non existent or very minimal|80%
A global plague (The Black Death) sweeps across the land|140%
A war starts between two nearby medium sized nations|110%
A war starts between two nearby large nations|120%
A world wide conflict|150%
[/table]
Note: As the Shade Channeler gains power from the souls of the recently departed if something that causes people to die but have their souls not pass on (Invading demons trap the souls of their enemies, or undead apocalypse) the Shade Channeler doesn't gain as much benefit from it.


Interesting, and not too complicated. Though, do the various bonuses and penalties stack?

Also, I feel this makes the power point module even harder to balance.




Death Sense: :snip:

Rebuke Undead: :snip:

Useful and flaverful, and not overpowering.




Soul Harvest (Su):
What about beings without class levels, or those with a mix of class and racial hit dice?

I think it's a pretty powerful ability, especially with the loose limit it has.


Corpse Crafter:


Bonus feat, not too much to worry about. Not familiar with the feat, so can't say much, though I notice you didn't include the standard 'whether they qualify for it or not'. Is that not a concern for this feat?


Undead Tactics: :snip:

All tactics are standard actions. A Shade Channeler may use one Horde Tactic, Platoon Tactic and Commander Tactic every 5 rounds.
do you mean that you can only use the undead tactic ability as a whole once every 5 rounds, or that you can only use each type of tactic once every 5 rounds(ie, use a horde tactic and it's 5 rounds before you can use another, but next round you can use a platoon or commander tactic).


Spirit Boon: At fourth level the Shade Channeler can use his powers to enhance the undead under his control. By spending a number of spirit points indicated by the boon he can enhance an undead with a spirit boon he has available. He starts with 1 spirit boons at 4th level and gains 1 ever other level after, chosen from the list below. A particular undead can only have a single boon at a time. Undead can have an additional boon applied at 10th level and an additional boon every 6 levels after. :snip:
Suggested changes to grammar are in red.

I'm not sure what you mean by the llast two sentences there. Did you change your mind, or did you mean that a given undead can only have 1 boon at 4th, and an additional one every 6 levels after(2 10th, 3 at 16th)?


Efficient Control: (Ex) Whenever the Shade Channeler attempts to rebuke an undead creature he can treat his HD as a number of HD lower equal to the number indicated by Efficient Control.
That he/his is slightly confusing, as his properly refers back to the same subject as he, which is either the Shade Channeler or the Undead, neither of which makes sense. I think you want to change his to either it or the undead's (I prefer the latter). It's also probably best to switch the order of the last two sentences.


Horde Empowerment: (Ex) :snip:
I think this ability is largely fine: Undead tend to have inflated numbers of HD. The ability to switch control pool numbers around is more worrisome, especially since it doesn't seem to have an action. I'd suggest removing it, to be honest.


Bonus Feat :snip:Not really much to say, though you should probably specify that you need to qualify for the feats.


Form of Death: (Ex)At 12th level the Shade Channeler gains a deflection bonus to ac equal to his charisma modifier. At 18th level the Shade Channeler gains the ability to see in all forms of magical and non magical darkness. In addition the Shade Channeler gains a profane bonus on fort saves equal to his charisma modifier.
These are the two worrisome aspects to me: a charisma based caster getting Charisma to AC and Fort Saves is a pretty good boost. Probably warrents some sort of limit on each ability(max bonus equal to 1/4 level, rounded up or down, perhaps). Also, you need to clarify what level the fort bonus activates on.


Transfer Target: (Su)

Soul Tether: (Su)

Alternate Source: (Ex)
Yeah, a perfect version of dispel magic? Too strong. Needs some activation check.

Soul Tether seems fine, though.

Alternate Source needs some clarification. Is it instead of the normal double spirit point cost, or in addition to. Basically, is it 3x spell level or 6x spell level?


Custom Horde: (Ex) At 10th level the Shade Channeler has gained insight on how to animate particular undead. At 10th level he gains the ability to animate an undead creature or template with the create undead or create greater undead spells. The Shade Channeler can choose a custom creature to animate at 13th level and every 3rd level after. The Shade Channeler can choose any undead creature with a CR equal to his class level - 4. Thus at 10th level he can choose to animate a creature with CR 6 or lower, at 13th level he can select a creature with CR 9 or lower, etc. For templates the template selected must have a cr increase of 1/2 of his class level - 6. Thus at level 10 he can select a template that has a cr increase of +1, at level 13 he may select a template that has a cr of +2 or less.

The wording here is odd, and honestly I'm not sure what you're trying to say here: does the ability start at level 13 or level 10? Are the templates limited exactly to that number, or can they be less? And what exactly do you mean by custom undead, and by the fact that he can chose them at certain levels? Are these permanent changes to the afformentioned spells? Why would you ever use Create Greater undead, if you can do everything with the lower level spell?


Dread Army: (Su)
Needs some cost to balance it, especially since Zombie is one of those scaling templates. Perhaps costing (# of spirit points equal to 1/2 zombies hit dice, round up)?


Horde Perfection: At 14th level the Shade Channeler becomes more adept at animating undead and can now animate skeletons and zombies with HD higher than 20 with animate dead. In addition he can specialize in either skeletons or zombies. If he specializes in Skeletons they gain a bonus to hit equal to the Shade Channeler's charisma modifier and any Spirit Boons applied to them only costs half as many spirit points. If the Shade Channeler specializes in Zombies, all Zombies created by the Shade Channeler lose their single action only ability and gain 2hp/hd and +4 strength.
Corrected some minor grammar errors. Pretty powerful ability, especially the Zombie part. Not sure how it balances.


Improved Dread Army: (Su) At 16th level the Shade Channeler's ability to temporarily animate slain foes improves. This ability functions as Dread Army except you can choose to either animate the slain creature as a zombie or you can animate them as a corpse creature. If you animate the creature as a corpse creature the duration is 1 round/5 class levels.
What's a corpse Creature? Still needs some kind of cost, though I have no idea what would be appropriate for this one.


Embodiment of Death: (Ex)
Probably should specify what the ability bonuses are. I feel the at death revival ability might be a bit much, especially combined with the further increase in undead you can control.


Improved Spirit Capacity
Flavor text. You are more adept at absorbing the energy of the world's dead.
Prerequisites: Spirit Channeling, Shade Channeler class level 6.
Benefits: You gain an additional Spirit Point per class level whenever you rest and regain Spirit Points.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. It's effects stack.
Yeah, too good with the current mechanic.


Improved Spell Calling
Flavor text. You are very efficient at calling a particular spell.
Prerequisites: Spirit Channeling, Shade Channeler class level 6.
Benefits: Select one spell the you can cast. When calling that spell you do not have to pay Spirit Points to call the spell. This spell still counts against the number of spells you can have called of a certain level.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time you must select a different spell.
This seems fine.


New Spells
Lesser Animate Dead

Seems perfectly fine.

Thoughts on Tactics and Spirit boons:
Making this it's own section because there are enough of them.
Coordination Tactics: These seem fine.
Bulwark Tactics: Minor issues with Improved Defensive Line and Pawn Shield. The former I'd either make it horde, or more preferably change the bonus to deflection or the like. The latter should probably last more than one round, but also needs to note what happens when the undead is destroyed(yes, somewhat obvious, but the less chance for confusion the better). Also, you should probably just have it be against the Undead's AC: otherwise, what about effects that are normally touch attacks and the like?
Retribution Tactics:Explosive retribution should have a time limit, though multiple turns wouldn't be out of line. For Counter attack, is the cost of the attack one AOO, or do you get to make two attacks(one normal attack, one AOO)? Wordings not clear.
Hampering Tactics:You probably need to specify that these special tactics only last one round. Disabling attack needs a much easier save, and should probably limit the number of saves one target needs to make. Distracting attack needs to specify if the target need to be in the zone the creature threatens. Crippling strike is too strong: speed reduction lasts too long, and -6 to dex is huge, especially since it's not a penalty it appears it can stack. Need to limit the number of saves on target must face because of this ability. Pinning rush seems a bit strong, as with the number of undead you can get this basically is an instant grapple. Probably need to limit the size of the bonus granted, as well as not eliminate AOO's.
Swarming Tactics:The latter 2 seem okay, but the first two have some problems with timing. Essentially, if two undead are effected by this, and both attack a target in the same round sequentially, how do you determine the bonus? And if they do it at the same time?

Spirit Boons:
Enduring Boons: Eternal undead seems a bit strong. Probably should cap the raises given.
Resistance Boons:Good, except there seems to be 1 error: Profane Reflexes gives the mettle ability(I think you want evasion).
Mobility Boons:Perfect Teleporting Bones seems very strong. Probably should be a move action or something.
Mage Slaying Boons:The last effect, the anitmagic sphere? Too Strong, especially for it's cost.
Swarming Boons: Seem good.
Powerful Boons: My main issue is with Profane Size. Seems like it's a bit too much: It's Powerful Blows+Improved Strengthen Flesh+Strengthen Flesh, plus two addition natural weapon size increases, for a total of 3. That's quite a bit extra, and it costs the exact same.
Ranged Boons: The two ranged projectile abilities are kinda odd: the range increment rules don't seem to be followed. You only have one range increment, not 2 different ones.



Final Notes:

You seem to not always have abilities labeled with tags (Ex, Su, Sp, Ps).

For a decently diverse Full Caster, this has a tone of powerful abilities. I'd suggest toning it down a bit.

Morph Bark
2012-10-02, 04:25 PM
And on that note, curse y'all entrants of BCC XIII for being so many of you.

So. Much. Tiering.

Silva Stormrage
2012-10-02, 05:02 PM
Whelp, let's get to it.

Thoughts on the Fluff:
Couple things stand out: First off, 'Foolish Fools' is a bit redundant. Chose one.

Secondly, the order of the sections is off, and you're missing some of the sections.

Thoughts on the Mechanics:


Main thing I notice here is that it's pretty much the same chassis as the Cleric. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but that can provide a modest boost in power, as it gives full casters more options.


The first effect is pretty powerful: might want to tone down or excise it. The secondary effect isn't so much powerful as it is troublesome. Why not just have them be Arcane effects that aren't subject to Spell Failure?


Okay, it's a point based caster, with a somewhat limited spell list. A couple edits I made to improve clarity(imo) are made in red.

Personally? I think this is a bit powerful: conjuration is an extremely powerful school, and necromancy has some good stuff as well. Divination tends to be more variable, depending on the DM's rules, but it's still quite good as well. adding another school on top of this? Very, very powerful. Combined with a power point system of casting, as well as an Euridite method of spells prepared, and I think this is horribly overpowered. I'd say you need to reduce some combination of spells known, unique spells per day, and power points.

Oh, and technically right now Spirit points never disipate. That means every time you rest when you aren't exhausted, you're increasing your spirit point pool. This is game breaking and needs to be fixed.

Though, I thought I should ask, did you intend to leave transmutation out of the list of schools available to chose?



Interesting, and not too complicated. Though, do the various bonuses and penalties stack?

Also, I feel this makes the power point module even harder to balance.


Useful and flaverful, and not overpowering.


What about beings without class levels, or those with a mix of class and racial hit dice?

I think it's a pretty powerful ability, especially with the loose limit it has.


Bonus feat, not too much to worry about. Not familiar with the feat, so can't say much, though I notice you didn't include the standard 'whether they qualify for it or not'. Is that not a concern for this feat?


do you mean that you can only use the undead tactic ability as a whole once every 5 rounds, or that you can only use each type of tactic once every 5 rounds(ie, use a horde tactic and it's 5 rounds before you can use another, but next round you can use a platoon or commander tactic).


Suggested changes to grammar are in red.

I'm not sure what you mean by the llast two sentences there. Did you change your mind, or did you mean that a given undead can only have 1 boon at 4th, and an additional one every 6 levels after(2 10th, 3 at 16th)?


That he/his is slightly confusing, as his properly refers back to the same subject as he, which is either the Shade Channeler or the Undead, neither of which makes sense. I think you want to change his to either it or the undead's (I prefer the latter). It's also probably best to switch the order of the last two sentences.


I think this ability is largely fine: Undead tend to have inflated numbers of HD. The ability to switch control pool numbers around is more worrisome, especially since it doesn't seem to have an action. I'd suggest removing it, to be honest.

Not really much to say, though you should probably specify that you need to qualify for the feats.


These are the two worrisome aspects to me: a charisma based caster getting Charisma to AC and Fort Saves is a pretty good boost. Probably warrents some sort of limit on each ability(max bonus equal to 1/4 level, rounded up or down, perhaps). Also, you need to clarify what level the fort bonus activates on.


Yeah, a perfect version of dispel magic? Too strong. Needs some activation check.

Soul Tether seems fine, though.

Alternate Source needs some clarification. Is it instead of the normal double spirit point cost, or in addition to. Basically, is it 3x spell level or 6x spell level?



The wording here is odd, and honestly I'm not sure what you're trying to say here: does the ability start at level 13 or level 10? Are the templates limited exactly to that number, or can they be less? And what exactly do you mean by custom undead, and by the fact that he can chose them at certain levels? Are these permanent changes to the afformentioned spells? Why would you ever use Create Greater undead, if you can do everything with the lower level spell?


Needs some cost to balance it, especially since Zombie is one of those scaling templates. Perhaps costing (# of spirit points equal to 1/2 zombies hit dice, round up)?


Corrected some minor grammar errors. Pretty powerful ability, especially the Zombie part. Not sure how it balances.


What's a corpse Creature? Still needs some kind of cost, though I have no idea what would be appropriate for this one.


Probably should specify what the ability bonuses are. I feel the at death revival ability might be a bit much, especially combined with the further increase in undead you can control.


Yeah, too good with the current mechanic.


This seems fine.


Seems perfectly fine.

Thoughts on Tactics and Spirit boons:
Making this it's own section because there are enough of them.
Coordination Tactics: These seem fine.
Bulwark Tactics: Minor issues with Improved Defensive Line and Pawn Shield. The former I'd either make it horde, or more preferably change the bonus to deflection or the like. The latter should probably last more than one round, but also needs to note what happens when the undead is destroyed(yes, somewhat obvious, but the less chance for confusion the better). Also, you should probably just have it be against the Undead's AC: otherwise, what about effects that are normally touch attacks and the like?
Retribution Tactics:Explosive retribution should have a time limit, though multiple turns wouldn't be out of line. For Counter attack, is the cost of the attack one AOO, or do you get to make two attacks(one normal attack, one AOO)? Wordings not clear.
Hampering Tactics:You probably need to specify that these special tactics only last one round. Disabling attack needs a much easier save, and should probably limit the number of saves one target needs to make. Distracting attack needs to specify if the target need to be in the zone the creature threatens. Crippling strike is too strong: speed reduction lasts too long, and -6 to dex is huge, especially since it's not a penalty it appears it can stack. Need to limit the number of saves on target must face because of this ability. Pinning rush seems a bit strong, as with the number of undead you can get this basically is an instant grapple. Probably need to limit the size of the bonus granted, as well as not eliminate AOO's.
Swarming Tactics:The latter 2 seem okay, but the first two have some problems with timing. Essentially, if two undead are effected by this, and both attack a target in the same round sequentially, how do you determine the bonus? And if they do it at the same time?

Spirit Boons:
Enduring Boons: Eternal undead seems a bit strong. Probably should cap the raises given.
Resistance Boons:Good, except there seems to be 1 error: Profane Reflexes gives the mettle ability(I think you want evasion).
Mobility Boons:Perfect Teleporting Bones seems very strong. Probably should be a move action or something.
Mage Slaying Boons:The last effect, the anitmagic sphere? Too Strong, especially for it's cost.
Swarming Boons: Seem good.
Powerful Boons: My main issue is with Profane Size. Seems like it's a bit too much: It's Powerful Blows+Improved Strengthen Flesh+Strengthen Flesh, plus two addition natural weapon size increases, for a total of 3. That's quite a bit extra, and it costs the exact same.
Ranged Boons: The two ranged projectile abilities are kinda odd: the range increment rules don't seem to be followed. You only have one range increment, not 2 different ones.



Final Notes:

You seem to not always have abilities labeled with tags (Ex, Su, Sp, Ps).

For a decently diverse Full Caster, this has a tone of powerful abilities. I'd suggest toning it down a bit.

Thank you for the Peach I greatly appreciate it.

First off I should mention that the balance point for this class is supposed to be Tier 1. So it IS supposed to be strong and able to compete with clerics and wizards. Still I do think I went a bit overboard.

On your comments:
Chassis: It's skills are a bit better and I didn't feel it should be a martial class. Its not quite the same as the cleric as it doesn't have access to any armor heavier than light.

Spells: Eh I honestly might just remove the first ability. I initially thought it would be an interesting fluff ability but it seems a bit clunky now and I need to weaken the class anyway. Also for the reason that the spell list isn't arcane while ignoring arcane spell failure is that I didn't want them producing scrolls. With their ability to learn spells from an entire school and cast spontaneously they could give a wizard ally almost any spell they want from the Divination, Necromancy, Conjuration or other schools.

Spirit Channeling: Thanks for wording corrections, sometimes I am not quite clear with my words. The main inspiration was a point based system similar to the Spirit Shaman. The reasons for the school choices were this, Necromancy (Obvious), Conjuration (Summon Undead + Teleport), Divination (Seemed to fit the fluff of calling on spirits. Ask for their help/knowledge). I personally dislike the transmutation school so yes that was an intentional omission. Though to be honest I didn't realize it was the ONLY school I omitted. I probably will remove enchantment as this class has enough ways of getting minions.

On the overpowered aspect I can agree. I wanted a system where the caster had limited sustainability compared with other casters (This class has tactics to make up for it). And to be able to increase their versatility in exchange for their sustainability and vise versa. I think I will cap it at 3 spells called each day for each level, the same as the Spirit Shaman. I also will move divination to the extra school section. So they only start with Conjuration and Necromancy and can select either, evocation, divination, illusion or abjuration.

On the areas of death: Yes it makes it more complicated and a bit harder to balance. As you could have a campaign with an incredibly high death rate from a plague or similar and make this class's power skyrocket. I think I shall add a note that says the DM can ignore this section if it would unbalance a particular campaign.

Soul Harvest: It doesn't check wether creatures have class levels or not so not sure why a being having or not having class levels would matter :smallconfused: It gives the Spirit Points based on the Shade Channeler's class level thus a 4th level Shade Channeler gains 2 spirit points per each death to a maximum of 4 in one round. I will however, add a clause preventing the Shade Channeler from killing bags of rats to for this.

Corpse Crafter: The feat doesn't have prerequisites so it didn't make a difference.

Undead Tactics: Ya I should of clarified. You can use a horde tactic in round 1 and then have to wait 5 rounds to use another horde tactic. Then in round 2 you can use a commander tactic and wait 5 rounds till you can use another commander tactic. I will clarify.

Spirit Boons: I meant that at 4th they can only have 1 applied at a time. I will clarify

Efficient Control: "He" is supposed to be the Shade Channeler. Assume a 6th level Shade Channeler attempts to rebuke a ghoul (2 HD 2 Turn Resistance). The Shade Channeler can treat the ghoul as having 1 less HD (Thus 1 HD 2 Turn Resistance or 2 HD 1 Turn Resistance) and would thus command the ghoul. Also the ghoul would only take up 3 HD in the Shade Channeler's Command Undead Pool instead of the normal 4. If someone else attempted to turn or rebuke the ghoul it would still be treated as if it has 4 HD. Does that make it clearer?

Horde Empowerment: Hm, I don't honestly see a problem with switching the amount of undead he can control. I should clarify that if he has more undead under his control then his pool allows he loses the excess undead. Its mainly there to help someone who wants to specialize in skeletons and zombies or commanded undead.

Bonus Feat: Yes I will add that part.

Aspect of Death: Hm, I would normally argue that the ac bonus doesn't matter that much as its a common type. But since I need to weaken the class anyway and it is just a boost I will weaken it. The fort save one will probably stay though, as at 18th level (I will clarify thats when you get the ability) the Shade Channeler will more than likely be undead (And thus lose his constitution modifier).

Transfer Target: Perfect version of dispel magic :smallconfused: not sure what you mean by that. It only works on targeted spells (not rays and the like).

Alternate Cost: Its 6 X Spell Level. I will note this.

Custom Horde: I will fix the wording issues. Also good point on the uselessness of greater create undead. I shall make it so that any undead higher than a certain CR will only be able to be animated by greater create undead.

Dread Army: Zombies stop being effective around this level. Also this doesn't really work on any humanoid creature or a creature with class level. I don't think summoning a temporary stone giant zombie is worth a 7th level spell. As summon monster VII can create a bone creature that can cast wall of ice, dimensional anchor, fly, major image all at will. I did notice that they become better with destructive retribution so I am capping the amount of zombies out at once and nerfing the duration.

Horde Perfection: Zombies and skeletons stop being as effective around this level. However, I overdid this a bit. I am going to reduce the bonuses.

Improved Dread Army: This one might be a bit overpowered. Corpse Creature is a template from BOVD, I will mention that. The Duration on this one is fine. I think I will limit it so that only one corpse creature can be active at a time.

Embodiment of Death: The bonuses are the same type as what you would get when you gain a specific template. Though on second thought I made this waaaay more convoluted than I needed to. Changed it so that the Shade Channeler becomes a Lich upon reaching level 20 or a template he can animate with animate custom horde.

Improved Spirit Capacity: This should be fine now. Its nothing more than a scaling extra slot feat. (20 Spirit Points = 1 9th level spell and 1 1st at 20)

Tactics:
Defensive line should be horde I agree.
Pawn Shield should be fine lasting only 1 round. Undead can soak up a LOT of damage so I don't want to make it last for too long. Its also a move action so the Shade Channeler can do other things that round. I will work on something for touch attacks though. I forgot about them.

Explosive Retribution: It does have a time limit, 1 round. I guess I didn't make it clear I will improve it's clarity.

Disabling Strike: I was supposed to change that. Its supposed to be (10+Bab+Shade Channeler's Charisma Modifier). I think I might change that to 1/2 the Shade channeler's HD too.
Distracting Strike: Will add the must be threatened part.
Crippling Strike: Is supposed to be a commander tactic. I think its fine for a single strike every 5 rounds.

Swarming Assualt/Volley: Assuming 5 undead attack a subject. First one gets +0, Second gets +1, Third gets +2, Fourth gets +3, Fifth gets +4. I know it seems weird when looking at it in Real Time but isn't that how it normally happens in D&D combat?

Boons:
Eternal Undead I figured was fine since it only applies to zombies and skeletons and most of the time they will not even be useful within the same encounter. I am going to add a clause that killing them with good aligned or holy weapons will permanently destroy them though.
Profane Reflexes: Will fix that thank you.
Perfect Teleporting Boon: Yes I think a move of standard action would be better. I think I forgot how soon you can get it.
Mage Slaying: Ya I agree. Do you have any good idea for another mage slaying boon? I couldn't think of anything else. Will remove this one till I get a better idea.
Profane Size: I will look at it again. I think I might of just kept adding to that one without paying attention to what it already had.
Ranged: Hm, well I always though longbows and crossbows had an initial range and then a range increment. Learn something new everyday. I will edit those.


All in all thank you for the very indepth review. It helped greatly :smallbiggrin:

Techwarrior
2012-10-02, 05:14 PM
Might I suggest that the contest winner, and not just the winning entry, be placed in the table for ease of reference?

Temotei
2012-10-02, 06:17 PM
Might I suggest that the contest winner, and not just the winning entry, be placed in the table for ease of reference?

Added "Winner" column in the table.

Tavar
2012-10-02, 07:59 PM
Soul Harvest: It doesn't check wether creatures have class levels or not so not sure why a being having or not having class levels would matter :smallconfused: It gives the Spirit Points based on the Shade Channeler's class level thus a 4th level Shade Channeler gains 2 spirit points per each death to a maximum of 4 in one round. I will however, add a clause preventing the Shade Channeler from killing bags of rats to for this.
Ah, mistook it to be based on the creatures hd. Your method does need some balance point.


Corpse Crafter: The feat doesn't have prerequisites so it didn't make a difference.
Cool: don't have the book with that feat, so I wasn't sure.



Efficient Control: "He" is supposed to be the Shade Channeler. Assume a 6th level Shade Channeler attempts to rebuke a ghoul (2 HD 2 Turn Resistance). The Shade Channeler can treat the ghoul as having 1 less HD (Thus 1 HD 2 Turn Resistance or 2 HD 1 Turn Resistance) and would thus command the ghoul. Also the ghoul would only take up 3 HD in the Shade Channeler's Command Undead Pool instead of the normal 4. If someone else attempted to turn or rebuke the ghoul it would still be treated as if it has 4 HD. Does that make it clearer?
I know this. I'm saying that your statement has run afoul of Unclear Antecedents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antecedent_(grammar)). Specifically, the 'he can treat his' segment, because the word he and the word his should both refer back to the same individual.


Horde Empowerment: Hm, I don't honestly see a problem with switching the amount of undead he can control. I should clarify that if he has more undead under his control then his pool allows he loses the excess undead. Its mainly there to help someone who wants to specialize in skeletons and zombies or commanded undead.
The main issue is it can lead to a bit of optimization, essentially trading all rebuke HD when you know you won't be seeing many undead to inflate your other pool, plus the power of certain kinds of skeletons/zombies.



Aspect of Death: Hm, I would normally argue that the ac bonus doesn't matter that much as its a common type. But since I need to weaken the class anyway and it is just a boost I will weaken it. The fort save one will probably stay though, as at 18th level (I will clarify thats when you get the ability) the Shade Channeler will more than likely be undead (And thus lose his constitution modifier).
Means you need to spend less on items to boost your Deflection AC.


Transfer Target: Perfect version of dispel magic :smallconfused: not sure what you mean by that. It only works on targeted spells (not rays and the like).
The way I read it, you could, say, use this ability on someone's Dominate spell after it had been cast, negating the spell with no roll. If you tried to end that spell with Dispel Magic, there'd be a caster level roll. This also allows you to strip buff spells with no resistance.


Dread Army: Zombies stop being effective around this level. Also this doesn't really work on any humanoid creature or a creature with class level. I don't think summoning a temporary stone giant zombie is worth a 7th level spell. As summon monster VII can create a bone creature that can cast wall of ice, dimensional anchor, fly, major image all at will. I did notice that they become better with destructive retribution so I am capping the amount of zombies out at once and nerfing the duration.
What if you're fighting giants or Dragons? Or anything else that's mainly racial hit dice?

This is too good. Period.


Improved Spirit Capacity: This should be fine now. Its nothing more than a scaling extra slot feat. (20 Spirit Points = 1 9th level spell and 1 1st at 20)
....
You do know that a scaling extra slot feat is perhaps one of the most powerful things you could give a caster? What's worse, this is an arcane caster who isn't limited by a certain number of spells per day of a given level. At level 20, it'd be easy for a Shade Channeler to cast 22 9th level spells. Psionics gets away with this because it's balanced around the system, but this is Arcane casting: these spells aren't.



Pawn Shield should be fine lasting only 1 round. Undead can soak up a LOT of damage so I don't want to make it last for too long. Its also a move action so the Shade Channeler can do other things that round. I will work on something for touch attacks though. I forgot about them.
Keep is simple: just have all attacks be redirected towards the pawn. If they're touch, then the attack is against the pawn's touch ac. If they're not, then it's not.


Disabling Strike: I was supposed to change that. Its supposed to be (10+Bab+Shade Channeler's Charisma Modifier). I think I might change that to 1/2 the Shade channeler's HD too.
Crippling Strike: Is supposed to be a commander tactic. I think its fine for a single strike every 5 rounds.Lowering the DC on the save is good.

In that case, the speed loss should still be lowered, time wise: have it be on a 5 round timer, if you must, but one minute is a bit much. The Dex thing is problematic as well: how long does it last(currently it lasts forever), and what kind of reduction is it?

Even then, I think it may very well be a bit much, even at only once/5 rounds.


Swarming Assualt/Volley: Assuming 5 undead attack a subject. First one gets +0, Second gets +1, Third gets +2, Fourth gets +3, Fifth gets +4. I know it seems weird when looking at it in Real Time but isn't that how it normally happens in D&D combat?Not necessarily, which is why there's a problem.


Eternal Undead I figured was fine since it only applies to zombies and skeletons and most of the time they will not even be useful within the same encounter. I am going to add a clause that killing them with good aligned or holy weapons will permanently destroy them though.
I think you underestimate Skeletons and Zombies, at least assuming they're not baseline humaniod ones.


Mage Slaying: Ya I agree. Do you have any good idea for another mage slaying boon? I couldn't think of anything else. Will remove this one till I get a better idea.More stuff equivalent to ones from the Mage Slayer line of feats?

Tanuki Tales
2012-10-02, 08:10 PM
Already on your third thread? Congratulations!

Temotei
2012-10-02, 11:48 PM
Already on your third thread? Congratulations!

To be fair, I cut off the first one since it was so old and I didn't make it.

Silva Stormrage
2012-10-06, 02:33 PM
Well the site cut out when I was 99% done with the updates on the Shade Channeler >.> Time to redo that next fix. Will respond to your comments soon Tavar.

sengmeng
2012-10-11, 03:49 PM
Guardian Angel is up. PEACHes appreciated.

Quellian-dyrae
2012-10-11, 05:12 PM
Bonded Allies: The Guardian Angel forms special bonds with her friends, and almost all of her class abilities are based around helping those to whom she is bonded. To form the bond, she must spend a minute speaking with a willing, intelligent creature with a friendly disposition towards her. She does not need to share a language with the creature, but it must agree to the bond. She may bond with an animal if it is capable of learning tricks, and the bond counts as a trick. Thereafter, she may communicate with them telepathically at an unlimited range as long as they are on the same plane. The limit to the number of bonds she can form is given under the “Bonded Allies” heading on the table. She may not change her bonds unless one of her bonded allies dies or betrays her (causes damage to her or targets her with a harmful spell, generally, though other forms of betrayal are allowable by the DM). If she is betrayed, she takes a -4 penalty to her saves and AC against her former bonded ally, and a -4 penalty to attacks made against them until the end of the encounter. She may never form a bond with that creature again. If one of her bonded allies dies, she may choose to form a new bond with another creature, but she also may choose to keep the bond. She can always sense the locations of her bonded allies if they are on the same plane. She can sense if her bonded ally is on another plane, but not which plane it is. She always knows when a bonded ally is damaged or dies. She cannot willingly attack a bonded ally or target them with a harmful spell, and if she is under a mind control or compulsion that causes her to attempt to attack a bonded ally, she immediately gets another save to resist the enchantment or compulsion.

This is cool. A few suggestions though:


Maybe add an ability modifier to your number of bonded allies. It'll be a drop in the bucket at high levels, but it lets you bond to the whole party at 1st.
I'd remove the set definition of betrayal. As written it looks like, say, if the party's wizard catches the Guardian Angel in a fireball, it's a permanent removal of the bond. Betrayal should be defined by the Guardian Angel in the situation...and perhaps should not permanently remove the bond. It seems like forgiveness should be possible for this class.
I'd also maybe loosen up the restriction about not being able to attack bonded allies, probably to disallowing lethal damage, ability damage or drain, negative levels, or other forms of lasting harm. As it stands, it could be interpreted as not allowing you to, say, grapple an ally to prevent it from setting off a trap, or something.



Swift Aid: The Guardian Angel may aid another as a swift action instead of a standard action.

Nothing to add here.


Summoned (Su): A Guardian Angel’s bonded allies may summon her to their sides with a swift or immediate action. The Guardian Angel must be conscious and willing to answer their call. She is made aware of her ally’s situation when they attempt to summon her. She appears in any open square of her choosing adjacent to the bonded ally who made the call. She cannot be called if there isn’t room. Answering the call is an immediate action on the part of the Guardian Angel. Eventually, she gains the ability to answer more than one summons in a round at levels 8, 13, and 18 (effectively, she gains an additional immediate action which can only be used to answer a summons). She may bring along any gear and equipment she can carry. She can even bring a mount along with her if her mount is also a bonded ally.

This ability is really cool, useful and flavorful. An idea would be for a higher-level ability to expand upon the ability to bring a bonded mount, letting you bring along multiple bonded allies in contact. In most cases, I'd say limit it to a small set, so you can bring the party along, but given the contest theme, allowing you to bring any bonded allies would make the Guardian Angel an awesome unit-teleporter, which is not a common niche in D&D.


Path: Guardian Angels have different methods to achieve the goal of protecting their friends. They may choose the paths of melee, ranged, defense, stealth, and magic. They gain a new path ability at levels 3, 7, and 11, then they may choose a second path at level 15 and gain a new path ability in their second path at level 19

I notice that most of these involve offensive improvements. That's fine, but maybe adjust the description of the ability to account for that.


Melee:
1st ability: the Guardian Angel gains Power Attack as a feat if they do not already have it. She may choose any feat she meets the prerequisites for if she already has Power Attack. Any time they hit an enemy while using Power Attack, any bonded allies who attack the same opponent before the Guardian Angel’s next action may add the same bonus to their damage rolls without taking a penalty.

2nd ability: When performing a Power Attack against a foe that has successfully damaged one of the Guardian Angel’s bonded allies in the previous round, the Guardian Angel may subtract a number from her melee attack rolls and add twice that number to her damage rolls. If she is using a weapon in two hands, she adds three times the penalty. As per her first melee path ability, any bonded allies who attack the same opponent may also add that number to their damage rolls until the Guardian Angel’s next action without taking a penalty, provided that the Guardian Angel successfully hits that opponent.

3rd ability: The Guardian Angel gains the Pounce ability when making a summoned charge.

This is pretty potent. My gut tells me it probably outclasses most of the other options.


Ranged:
1st ability: The Guardian Angel never takes a penalty for shooting into a melee or grapple that one of her bonded allies is involved in, nor can she ever hit them accidentally. Likewise, her bonded allies will never hit her if they shoot into a melee or grapple that she is involved in or hit her accidentally. Her bonded allies are not protected by this ability if they shoot into each others’ melees or grapples, however.

2nd ability: The Guardian Angel may coordinate any adjacent bonded allies to attack a single target with ranged weapons. They must all make full attacks with ranged weapons, and act on the Guardian Angel’s turn (only bonded allies behind the Guardian Angel in initiative order can participate). Everyone involved gains a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls per bonded ally involved, to a maximum of +16 for 8 bonded allies (This is the maximum even if the Guardian Angel is size large or larger and can be adjacent to more than 8 bonded allies). All bonded allies take the same range increment penalty as the Guardian Angel, even if they are not using weapons with the same range increment. Only bonded allies who can actually attack the intended enemy count.

3rd ability: Adjacent bonded allies gain the benefits of any feat related to ranged combat that the Guardian Angel has.

This looks good. The first ability mentions allies hitting each other...I don't recall if there are rules for that in grapples, but in melee is always just a penalty (which is mentioned for the Guardian Angel but not its allies). So that should probably be tweaked. I think applying the benefits of the first ability to and for all bonded allies (so, none take penalties for the others) would be nice to add to one of the improvements, particularly for war-scale play. Maybe also a capability for bonded allies to not treat each other as cover?


Defense:
1st ability: When a Guardian Angel fights defensively or takes the total defense action, all adjacent bonded allies gain the same bonus to their armor class. At 10th level, the bonus to AC for fighting defensively or taking the total defense action doubles. At 17th level, it triples.

2nd ability: When an adjacent bonded ally is struck in melee, a Guardian Angel may use an immediate action to redirect the damage to herself. She may choose to either take half damage, or pin the opponent’s weapon/limb for a moment, allowing all adjacent bonded allies to make an attack of opportunity on that opponent. To use this ability, she must be in a space threatened by the opponent who attacks her bonded ally.

3rd ability: A Guardian Angel may occupy the same space as a bonded ally without any penalties. Using the second defense path ability is a free action if a bonded ally in the same space as her is attacked. You may now be summoned into a bonded ally’s space with the summoned ability.

Can't think of anything to change.


Stealth:
1st ability:
The Guardian Angel gains 2d6 sneak attack. She may now be summoned into a space anywhere within 30 ft of a bonded ally.

2nd ability: The Guardian Angel’s sneak attack increases to 4d6, and if she and a bonded ally are flanking an opponent, her and her bonded ally’s sneak attack dice increase to d8’s, including any sneak attack dice she may have from multiclassing.

3rd ability: The Guardian Angel’s sneak attack increases to 6d6, and if she and a bonded ally are flanking an opponent, her bonded ally adds four dice to their sneak attack damage, even if they do not have the sneak attack ability.

My instinct is that this one is somewhat weaker than the others. Maybe adding something like the Island of Blades stance and letting flanking bonuses be improved by the various Improved Aid abilities would help.


Magic:
1st ability: The Guardian Angel may share spells and deliver touch spells for any bonded ally who can cast spells, as if she were their familiar (even if the bonded ally is a divine caster), as long as the spell doesn’t have the Evil descriptor. She grants a +2 bonus to caster level checks to overcome Spell Resistance to any adjacent bonded ally.

2nd ability: If the Guardian Angel uses her Swift Aid ability to help a bonded ally who casts a spell before the Guardian Angel’s next action, the spellcaster casts her next spell at +2 caster level, unless it has the Evil descriptor, in which case the spell is cast at -1 caster level. When a bonded ally casts a beneficial spell which can affect multiple targets, the Guardian Angel does not count against the total number of targets.

3rd ability: The Guardian Angel may be the point of origin for any of her bonded allies’ spells, as long as they do not have the Evil descriptor. She must be conscious, willing, and able to perform the somatic or verbal components of the spell. This does not count as an action for her. Rays or touch spells use her base attack bonus to determine whether or not they hit. In any round in which the Guardian Angel has been used to cast a spell, she adds a +nd6 bonus to her damage rolls with melee or ranged attacks, where n equals the level of the most powerful spell she channeled that round.

This is cool and tactical, but I'd limit the third ability to once per round, and/or put a range limit on it. Otherwise, you can have as many mages as you can bond with sitting safe in their towers, with the Guardian Angel waltzing into battle and unloading scores of spells per round (telepathically telling them when and what to cast, of course). To keep it viable in the war scale, probably just require that the caster have LoS and LoE to the Guardian Angel.


Summoned Attack (Su): When the Guardian Angel is summoned by a bonded ally, she may make a free attack at her highest base attack bonus against any opponent she threatens in her new location.

Nice.


Vengeance: If a bonded ally of the Guardian Angel dies or is dropped to negative hitpoints, she is immediately summoned to the space they last occupied, unless she perceives the situation to be suicidal (such as if they died in a pool of lava, or were killed by an overwhelming foe). This does not count against her per-round limit on the Summoned ability. She may attempt to use the Heal skill on them as a swift action. When attacking a creature that killed or dropped one of her bonded allies, every successful attack by the Guardian Angel is treated as a critical threat.

This is potent, and darn good melee protection for low-level allies; drop one, and you're facing immediate Guardian Angel wrath. Solid if for common adventuring, too.


Commune (Su): The Guardian Angel may communicate with any of her bonded allies who have died. They can provide her any information they had in life. What they might be able to report about the afterlife is up to the DM.

Nice flavor ability.



Summoned Charge (Su): When the Guardian Angel uses her Summoned Attack ability, she may now count it as a charge. Most feats or abilities that affect charging apply, but certain ones, such as Leap Attack, do not, since it requires them to jump a certain horizontal distance.

Hmm...I see a combo here that might be too strong. Melee Path 3 turns this into Pounce, so now we're saying that 1-4 times per round depending on level, an ally can give the Guardian Angel a full attack against an adjacent foe as a swift or immediate action. With a single attack, that's solidly strong. A full attack may be a bit much.


Improved Aid: When using the aid another action, the Guardian Angel grants a +4 bonus instead of a +2 bonus.

Nice.


Phase (Su): After being constantly summoned to help her friends, the Guardian Angel eventually finds a way to remain in the place between places for an indefinite amount of time. As a free action, she disappears to a place that is not part of any plane and cannot be found by non-epic magic. She cannot return on her own, however, and must be summoned by one of her bonded allies. She does not age or need food or air while she is phased, nor does any time pass for her while she is phased. Thus, any spells or status ailments that affected her when she phases do not affect her until she returns, and their durations are halted. She may not take any actions while phased except for communicating with her bonded allies.

This is really cool, excellent flavor.


Greater Aid: The Guardian Angel now grants a +6 bonus when using the aid another action.

Nice.


Vengeance II: When attacking a foe who killed or dropped one of her bonded allies, the Guardian Angel treats any successful hit as a confirmed critical. Against opponents who are normally immune to critical hits, she still treats successful hits as a critical threat, and they are affected as normal.

Yeah, ouch. If engaging a Guardian Angel's unit, drop the Guardian Angel first. OR ELSE. Still, in general use, the fact that they have to drop an ally makes this niche enough that it isn't overpowered, I don't think. Really, this whole ability line is a very good, subtle way to "draw aggro".


Superior Aid: The Guardian Angel now grants a +8 bonus when using the aid another action.

Still nice.


Vengeance III: The Guardian Angel gains 2 additional multipliers to her critical hits when attacking an opponent who killed or dropped one of her bonded allies, and her weapons gain the vorpal special ability against them, even if they are not slashing weapons.

You would have to be a fool to go after the Guardian Angel's allies first.

General Impressions:

This class looks excellent. I love the flavor of the mechanics, although a bit more descriptive flavor might be useful. As a general point of formatting, it's nice to include what level the abilities are gained at in their entries. I think the big theme in several of my suggestions is to make it so higher-level Guardian Angels are more like...the commanders of a unit, so some of the benefits they gain with bonded allies are shared among the bonded allies. Mainly just to strengthen the class's theme for the contest. Of course, that's all just opinion and ideas, not sure how it would really work in practice.

Anyway, great job!

malonkey1
2012-10-11, 07:34 PM
My class, the Legion Magus, could also use a peach and maybe an image. I haven't been able to find a free one.

ArkenBrony
2012-10-11, 07:44 PM
i've been having that problem for a while now

kanachi
2012-10-12, 10:54 AM
sorry I've not been on for a while guys, work took over for a while. I will try to start another peachathon at some point over the next few days (all things willing). I cant say exactly when as I'm still finishing things off but I will try to start before the end of the weekend.

Who knows maybe I will get some work done on my own class as well. lol

sengmeng
2012-10-12, 11:43 AM
Quellian-dyrae, thanks for a very prompt, thorough, and positive PEACH. I will commence the re-evaluation based on your suggestions.

Edit: I made a few minor changes, mostly along the lines you suggested. The Guardian Angel's charisma bonus now helps a few of her abilities (and forms the limit for the magic path's capstone). My changes to the stealth path actually seem to have made it weaker, however. Would just increasing the amount of sneak attack (3d6, 6d6, and 9d6, perhaps) put it on par with the others?

Edit edit: I also remembered that the Guardian Angel originally had all bad saves. Changed it so she has all good saves when adjacent to a bonded ally, and all bad saves if not. Also added to the skill list.

Quellian-dyrae
2012-10-12, 02:53 PM
Changes look good to me. I wouldn't increase the Sneak Attack, because at that point you're doing more sneak attack than an equal-level rogue for most levels of play.

I also noticed that Vengeance doesn't mention a duration. That might be worth adding.

sengmeng
2012-10-12, 03:00 PM
I also noticed that Vengeance doesn't mention a duration. That might be worth adding.

That was intentional. The Guardian Angel never forgets! I thought of having it be until the end of the encounter, but it doesn't make sense flavor-wise. I'll consider changing it.

Silva Stormrage
2012-10-19, 11:37 PM
Posting a Peach on the Guardian Angel any ability I didn't comment on is fine IMO.

Guardian Angel notes:

Melee Path:
Second ability: Does this count as power attack? As in do feats like leap attack stack with it? The wording is somewhat unclear.

Ranged Path:
1st Ability: Wouldn't the first ability be clearer if it just gave all bonded creatures within 100ft precise shot?
2nd Ability: You might want to introduce a scaling cap instead of just a flat cap of 8 creatures. Not too crucial but I feel the ability to get +16 to damage and to hit at level 7 is a bit too strong.
3rd Abiltiy: What is the limit for things that help ranged combat? Does weapon focus (Longbow) count? Would two weapon fighting feats be granted if the Guardian Angel is dual wielding crossbows?

Defense Path:
2nd Ability: If the guardian angel pins the weapon does he still take half of the damage? Also as a side note this ability can't be used on ranged attacks or spells as they don't threaten any squares.
3rd Ability: Nothing wrong with this I actually find it a very interesting and well thought out ability

Stealth Path:
General: What was your reasoning for including this path? It seems somewhat out of place. Also it might need a different name. It really isn't about stealth its more about coordinating with allies to deal sneak attack damage. Thats just IMO though.

Magic Path:
2nd Ability: For when an ally casts a beneficial spell that affects multiple opponents part, does the Guardian Angel and the bonded allies need to be within range of the spell? Or are they just automatically affected.
3rd Ability: The extra damage can make low level fodder mages incredibly lethal. Assuming the Guardian Angel takes leadership by level 20 and either has an ally that can cast 9th level spells or a cohort he can inflict an insane amount of damage with this ability. Might want to make it deal 1d6 divine damage for the individual spell level not the highest spell channeled in a round.

Vengeance: Incredibly broken and exploitable for this reason, you can bond it to animals. Keep a 1 hd rat or something you are bonded to near you. If you ever get hit with an AOE you get a permeant auto crit effect on them. Or you could bond with a spider and control have it walk on the enemy who will crush it and gives you a permanent auto crit effect. Not sure how to balance it but it is easily exploitable in this form.

Vengeance II & III: Same as above.

Silva Stormrage
2012-10-19, 11:43 PM
My class, the Legion Magus, could also use a peach and maybe an image. I haven't been able to find a free one.

Hm, the class seems a bit bland. Its essentially a bard like spell caster with marshal auras and a summonable minion.

For the bonded creature can the Legion Magus ever switch what creature it is? At level 8 it can only select a cr 6 creature and it seems like it only advances by racial HD or class levels. At say level 16 could the Legion Magus preform some ritual to bind a new summon with CR 16? Say a Planetar?

malonkey1
2012-10-20, 07:24 PM
Yes, at level 16, a Bonded Summoner may bind a CR 16 creature. The Legion Magus may change what type of creature is bonded to it any time it gains a level in the class. I'll add the to the description. And it should be noted that it can use Draconic Auras with their Major Aura bonus, should they learn them. Perhaps I'll give them a Draconic aura every few bonus levels for free.

sengmeng
2012-10-20, 07:26 PM
Posting a Peach on the Guardian Angel any ability I didn't comment on is fine IMO.

Guardian Angel notes:

Melee Path:
Second ability: Does this count as power attack? As in do feats like leap attack stack with it? The wording is somewhat unclear.

Ranged Path:
1st Ability: Wouldn't the first ability be clearer if it just gave all bonded creatures within 100ft precise shot?
2nd Ability: You might want to introduce a scaling cap instead of just a flat cap of 8 creatures. Not too crucial but I feel the ability to get +16 to damage and to hit at level 7 is a bit too strong.
3rd Abiltiy: What is the limit for things that help ranged combat? Does weapon focus (Longbow) count? Would two weapon fighting feats be granted if the Guardian Angel is dual wielding crossbows?

Defense Path:
2nd Ability: If the guardian angel pins the weapon does he still take half of the damage? Also as a side note this ability can't be used on ranged attacks or spells as they don't threaten any squares.
3rd Ability: Nothing wrong with this I actually find it a very interesting and well thought out ability

Stealth Path:
General: What was your reasoning for including this path? It seems somewhat out of place. Also it might need a different name. It really isn't about stealth its more about coordinating with allies to deal sneak attack damage. Thats just IMO though.

Magic Path:
2nd Ability: For when an ally casts a beneficial spell that affects multiple opponents part, does the Guardian Angel and the bonded allies need to be within range of the spell? Or are they just automatically affected.
3rd Ability: The extra damage can make low level fodder mages incredibly lethal. Assuming the Guardian Angel takes leadership by level 20 and either has an ally that can cast 9th level spells or a cohort he can inflict an insane amount of damage with this ability. Might want to make it deal 1d6 divine damage for the individual spell level not the highest spell channeled in a round.

Vengeance: Incredibly broken and exploitable for this reason, you can bond it to animals. Keep a 1 hd rat or something you are bonded to near you. If you ever get hit with an AOE you get a permeant auto crit effect on them. Or you could bond with a spider and control have it walk on the enemy who will crush it and gives you a permanent auto crit effect. Not sure how to balance it but it is easily exploitable in this form.

Vengeance II & III: Same as above.


Well, the 'Paths' that I had a really clear idea for were Magic and Melee, and the rest were made for more options, so they didn't have quite the same germ of creativity behind them. I personally thought Defense was the least formidable, but it hasn't seen a lot of criticism. Stealth isn't exactly about making the Guadian Angel stealthy, it's about making her a better supporter of a stealthy ally. I kind of wanted her to gain the ability to be summoned at a distance to provide flanking bonuses (or appear on the other side of a pit, or outside of a jail cell) and then I couldn't find much flavor-wise besides more sneak attack and the Sacred Strike feat.

The Ranged path obviously suffered from a lack of inspiration as well. The first ability is essentially Precise Shot, BUT it's meant to only work when bonded allies shoot into each others' melee or the Guardian Angel's, so by the time you've spent text explaining that, you don't save any wordage by mentioning Precise Shot (also, Precise Shot has no bearing on shooting into a grapple, but I couldn't find the rules for that). The second ability comes at level 11, not level 7, and the third ability, well, I just didn't want to list every possible feat that could be on that list and I hope that people don't need rules lawyering and could just use common sense.

As for the magic path's third ability, I don't know what you mean by "individual spell level" vs "highest spell level channeled." But, it comes at level 19, so the wizard in the party is doing insanely scary things, and the stuff that a 9th level spell does makes the Guardian Angel gaining +9d6 damage in the process almost irrelevant.

Vengeance is less exploitable than you think. You specifically cannot do what you described, as spiders and rats are not animals. I may change it in the following ways, though. 1: The Guardian Angel has an alignment restriction of good, but I haven't yet made rules for what happens if they break it, so intentionally sacrificing your pets or allies could result in a loss of class abilities. 2: Make it take a week to bond with an animal (the normal time to teach an animal a trick). 3: Significantly reduce the number of bonded allies so that forming a frivolous bond like this is less attractive. 4: Give the Guardian Angel morale penalties from grieving afterwards (once the initial fit of vengeance is over).

I will consider where clarification is needed on your other points. Thank you for your PEACH.

malonkey1
2012-10-20, 07:50 PM
Hm, the class seems a bit bland. Its essentially a bard like spell caster with marshal auras and a summonable minion.

For the bonded creature can the Legion Magus ever switch what creature it is? At level 8 it can only select a cr 6 creature and it seems like it only advances by racial HD or class levels. At say level 16 could the Legion Magus preform some ritual to bind a new summon with CR 16? Say a Planetar?

Alright, did some editing, and now the Bonded Creature is a bit clearer. Bonded creatures advance with their owner's Legion Magus level by Racial HD or by Class Level (Including, possibly, PrCs), and when their CR relative to their owner increases, it can be by the normal HD/Class Level method, or by means of adding a template. At each level, the Legion Magus can replace his BC with a new one by a ritual of negligible cost. It keeps any templates applied to the former, provided they make sense (no Demonic Planetars unless your DM's cool with it), and the relative CR remains the correct number.

Silva Stormrage
2012-10-23, 02:57 PM
Hey just edited the Shade Channeler a bit. Reworked what Spirit Boons cost (Instead of Spirit Points it's rebuke undead) and also redid Soul Harvest a bit so it's easier to calculate how many Spirit Points a Shade Channeler has at each given level.

So right now I am assuming at level 1,5,10,15,20 a Shade Channeler to have about.

1st: 6 Spirit Points. Enough for
Spell Level: Spells Called/Spells Cast
1: 1/2
Max Spirit Point Recovery from Soul Harvest: 1 Spirit Point (Requires 1 kill)

5th: 45 Spirit Pints Enough for
Spell Level: Spells Called/Spells Cast
1: 0/0
2: 1/1
3: 3/3
Max Spirit Point Recovery from Soul Harvest: 10 Spirit Points (Requires 4 kills 2/round)

10th: 135 Spirit Points. Enough for
Spell Level: Spells Called/Spells Cast
1: 0/0
2: 1/1
3: 2/3
4: 2/2
5: 3/3
Max Spirit Point Recovery from Soul Harvest: 50 Spirit Points (Requires 10 kills 2/round)

15th: 255 Spirit Points Enough for
Spell Level: Spells Called/Spells Cast
1: 0/0
2: 0/0
3: 0/0
4: 2/2
5: 3/3
6: 3/3
7: 3/3
Max Spirit Point Recovery from Soul Harvest: 105 Spirit Points (Requires 14 kills 2/round)

20th: 430 Spirit Points Enough for
Spell Level: Spells Called/Spells Cast
1: 1/1
2: 0/0
3: 3/2
4: 3/3
5: 3/3
6: 3/3
7: 3/3
8: 3/3
9: 3/3
Max Spirit Point Recovery from Soul Harvest: 200 Spirit Points (Requires 20 kills 2/round)


I think it's a bit low on Spirit Points right now. The Shade Channeler does have other class features such as Tactics and Spirit Boons to make up for it but right now, especially at low levels where he isn't likely to have many undead, he will spend much of combat simply not doing anything. Does anyone have any good ideas? Maybe a flat increase of Spirit Points such that the base Spirit Points increase from like 6,10,15,21,27...

sengmeng
2012-10-23, 10:09 PM
Minor fixes made to Guardian Angel. Vengeance is still exploitable, but WILL cause alignment problems if abused, and only one animal can be a bonded ally at a time, and bonding with an animal takes a week. Clarification made where necessary (although I'm still not sure what Silva meant by "might want to make it deal 1d6 divine damage for the individual spell level not the highest spell channeled in a round" in reference to the 3rd magic path ability.) Unless I get more feedback to the contrary, this should be the final form of the Guardian Angel, and I'm almost done on ACF's and feats.

sirpercival
2012-10-23, 10:11 PM
Trying to fit finishing the Ley Engineer in between a massive work schedule... but I haven't given up!

Silva Stormrage
2012-10-23, 10:12 PM
Minor fixes made to Guardian Angel. Vengeance is still exploitable, but WILL cause alignment problems if abused, and only one animal can be a bonded ally at a time, and bonding with an animal takes a week. Clarification made where necessary (although I'm still not sure what Silva meant by "might want to make it deal 1d6 divine damage for the individual spell level not the highest spell channeled in a round" in reference to the 3rd magic path ability.) Unless I get more feedback to the contrary, this should be the final form of the Guardian Angel, and I'm almost done on ACF's and feats.

Ah sorry I missed that you were confused. This is what I mean, correct me if I am wrong in my logic.

If a 17th level character channels say meteor swarm through the Guardian angel it will gain 9d6 damage correct? That is fine, +9d6 to a meteor swarm isn't overpowered at all.

However, in the same round 150 level 1 wizards (Gained from leadership or whatever) can cast magic missile and ALSO gain +9d6 damage. I feel that in this case the wizards casting magic missile should get an additional +1d6 damage.


Does that make sense? Or am I misinterpreting something?

sengmeng
2012-10-24, 03:25 AM
Ah sorry I missed that you were confused. This is what I mean, correct me if I am wrong in my logic.

If a 17th level character channels say meteor swarm through the Guardian angel it will gain 9d6 damage correct? That is fine, +9d6 to a meteor swarm isn't overpowered at all.

However, in the same round 150 level 1 wizards (Gained from leadership or whatever) can cast magic missile and ALSO gain +9d6 damage. I feel that in this case the wizards casting magic missile should get an additional +1d6 damage.


Does that make sense? Or am I misinterpreting something?

The spells don't gain damage, the Guardian Angel's attacks do. How can I word that more clearly?

Silva Stormrage
2012-10-31, 09:15 PM
The spells don't gain damage, the Guardian Angel's attacks do. How can I word that more clearly?

Sorry it IS clear. I misread it completely.

Also I added two new sets of boons for the Shade Channeler, Entropic and Spellcasting Boons. Please peach them if you wouldn't mind :smalltongue:

sirpercival
2012-11-01, 10:15 PM
Hi folks, I know I'm not done with the Plans yet (but I'm working on them as fast as I can!), but I'd really appreciate if someone could take a look at what I've done with the Ley Engineer already and give some feedback.

kanachi
2012-11-02, 02:59 PM
Hiya everyone. In sympathy to the giant I obviously subconsciously decided to sustain a hand injury and thus find my productive capability halved (or more as its my good hand). As such I doubt i will finish my class :(

I have been reading peoples entries however and wanted to let you all know that the quality here is awesome as always! I'll see how things go and try to post up some mini peach's in time.

Good luck to everyone!

Just to Browse
2012-11-02, 03:03 PM
Hey Silva, could you shrink your Shade Channeler pic? It isn't playing nicely with my computer screen.

God Imperror
2012-11-02, 03:11 PM
Cool, and just now I got inspiration :smallannoyed:

*commits honorable mental suicide*

Hopefully next time.

sirpercival
2012-11-04, 02:36 PM
Holy crap I finished Ley Engineer in time... anyone wanna take a look before the deadline is up?

Silva Stormrage
2012-11-04, 04:00 PM
Holy crap I finished Ley Engineer in time... anyone wanna take a look before the deadline is up?

I will attempt to, it seems an interesting class.

Silva Stormrage
2012-11-04, 05:28 PM
Just a quick review.


i don't think they need 8+int skills, with their int focus they already get a lot of skill points. Beguilers don't get 8+ either. You can keep it if you want though.


Plans:
General: How big is the area of effect for plans? I can't seem to find that anywhere. You also might want to sort the plans in category order or minimum pulse use.

Control Weather: I think this one falls into the problem that control winds has. It just can devastate cities horribly.

Increase gravity: Skill checks scale MUCH more rapidly than attack rolls which might make the ranged attack blocking part of this plan a bit strong. Also you should not that spells aren't affected (Rays and the like aren't affected by gravity)

Instant Fortress: Okay I love this one. Nothing wrong with it but I love the idea of a Ley Egineer just building a huge wall

Mine Field: You might want to make this one scale a bit as it deals an insane amount of damage early on but not so much later. Also flying creatures shouldn't detonate the mines should they? Or incorporeal actually. What type of damage are the mines? Are they magical? Also you might want to tone done how many mines you can create I can think of a let engineer and a psion with telekinetic thrust just absolutely killing anything. Create a line of mines that does 8d6 damage each, you will probably have about 20+ mines. Then use telekinetic thrust to throw the enemy down the line dealing 160d6. Slightly strong.

Overall fairly good class I didn't see anything too rigged or broken with it.

Temotei
2012-11-04, 05:31 PM
Hiya everyone. In sympathy to the giant I obviously subconsciously decided to sustain a hand injury and thus find my productive capability halved (or more as its my good hand). As such I doubt i will finish my class :(

Sorry to hear it. Get better soon.

sirpercival
2012-11-04, 06:15 PM
Just a quick review.


i don't think they need 8+int skills, with their int focus they already get a lot of skill points. Beguilers don't get 8+ either. You can keep it if you want though. Yes, but to use their abilities they also need to maintain 15 different skills (10 knowledges and 5 crafts). That was the main justification... does it still seem too much?


Plans:
General: How big is the area of effect for plans? I can't seem to find that anywhere. You also might want to sort the plans in category order or minimum pulse use. It's in the description -- 30-foot radius unless otherwise specified. Also, the table is sortable :D


Control Weather: I think this one falls into the problem that control winds has. It just can devastate cities horribly. So, what would help with that? Increase the minimum pulse? It seems quite appropriate for what this class is supposed to do, is all...


Increase gravity: Skill checks scale MUCH more rapidly than attack rolls which might make the ranged attack blocking part of this plan a bit strong. Also you should not that spells aren't affected (Rays and the like aren't affected by gravity) Hm. I'll take another look at this, it was i think the first one I wrote, and I got more experienced with them as I went on.


Instant Fortress: Okay I love this one. Nothing wrong with it but I love the idea of a Ley Egineer just building a huge wall This one right here is the very first idea I had for the class. BAM! Castle.


Mine Field: You might want to make this one scale a bit as it deals an insane amount of damage early on but not so much later. Also flying creatures shouldn't detonate the mines should they? Or incorporeal actually. What type of damage are the mines? Are they magical? Also you might want to tone done how many mines you can create I can think of a let engineer and a psion with telekinetic thrust just absolutely killing anything. Create a line of mines that does 8d6 damage each, you will probably have about 20+ mines. Then use telekinetic thrust to throw the enemy down the line dealing 160d6. Slightly strong. Well, the idea was to have the mines not be physical things. They can't be moved around, and they also fill a cube (I think it says square, I should fix that) and can be placed 3D, so they can hit fliers. It's a magical proximity mine, not a pressure mine. And I meant [Force] damage, so I'll fix that too.


Overall fairly good class I didn't see anything too rigged or broken with it. Great! Wasn't too confusing/complicated, I hope?

Silva Stormrage
2012-11-07, 04:06 PM
When will the voting thread come up?

Temotei
2012-11-08, 10:53 AM
When will the voting thread come up?

It's up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260747). Sorry for the delay; I've been busy and forgetful.

Silva Stormrage
2012-11-08, 02:19 PM
It's up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260747). Sorry for the delay; I've been busy and forgetful.

Thats fine, I don't think the people here mind waiting a few days :smalltongue:. Out of curiosity why can't you vote for your own class? If you can't it removes the incentive to vote at all. Since you only limit your own chances of winning by voting.

Maybe impose a -3 score penalty for each entry which is removed when the creator votes? This way everyone doesn't just vote for their own class and it gives incentive to vote at all.

Temotei
2012-11-08, 02:41 PM
Thats fine, I don't think the people here mind waiting a few days :smalltongue:. Out of curiosity why can't you vote for your own class? If you can't it removes the incentive to vote at all. Since you only limit your own chances of winning by voting.

Maybe impose a -3 score penalty for each entry which is removed when the creator votes? This way everyone doesn't just vote for their own class and it gives incentive to vote at all.

The votes were becoming toxic to the actual threads since the only first place votes were for themselves (except in rare cases). I asked everyone and pretty much everyone said they'd prefer it without votes available for self-made classes, most of whom were the authors themselves.

A penalty would enforce balance, but not fun. It would force votes, and I don't want to make anyone do anything. Some authors choose not to vote (for reasons other than that they're lowering their chances) and I want to keep it that way.

Silva Stormrage
2012-11-08, 02:49 PM
The votes were becoming toxic to the actual threads since the only first place votes were for themselves (except in rare cases). I asked everyone and pretty much everyone said they'd prefer it without votes available for self-made classes, most of whom were the authors themselves.

A penalty would enforce balance, but not fun. It would force votes, and I don't want to make anyone do anything. Some authors choose not to vote (for reasons other than that they're lowering their chances) and I want to keep it that way.

Fair enough.

sirpercival
2012-11-09, 08:36 AM
Hey Derjuin, I had a comment on the Celebrant... Y ou need to add two restrictions to the ceremony ability.

1. A max number of participants, scaling with level probably.
2. A requirement on the intelligence of the participants.

Otherwise it's bag of rats all over again. You can hire a chicken infested commoner with a spell pouch, grab 500 chickens, and at level 1 spend an hour to get 500 ac.

Temotei
2012-11-09, 11:18 AM
Otherwise it's bag of rats all over again. You can hire a chicken infested commoner with a spell pouch, grab 500 chickens, and at level 1 spend an hour to get 500 ac.

I tried to hit but it took forty-six tries to get a 20. AC OP nerfnao.

Derjuin
2012-11-09, 11:22 AM
Hey Derjuin, I had a comment on the Celebrant... Y ou need to add two restrictions to the ceremony ability.

1. A max number of participants, scaling with level probably.
2. A requirement on the intelligence of the participants.

Otherwise it's bag of rats all over again. You can hire a chicken infested commoner with a spell pouch, grab 500 chickens, and at level 1 spend an hour to get 500 ac.

Thanks - I'll add in the requirement on intelligence. However, I've already added something to deal with participants. Ceremony is intended to be able to affect large groups at once (entire armies for example), and those that grant bonuses based on the number of participants all have this line:



up to Celebrant's Charisma modifier


in their description. So 500 chickens would net you +Cha to AC as a Morale bonus, not +500 AC.

sirpercival
2012-11-09, 12:42 PM
Thanks - I'll add in the requirement on intelligence. However, I've already added something to deal with participants. Ceremony is intended to be able to affect large groups at once (entire armies for example), and those that grant bonuses based on the number of participants all have this line:

in their description. So 500 chickens would net you +Cha to AC as a Morale bonus, not +500 AC.

Oh hey, I missed that. Good call.

ErrantX
2012-11-09, 12:52 PM
The votes were becoming toxic to the actual threads since the only first place votes were for themselves (except in rare cases). I asked everyone and pretty much everyone said they'd prefer it without votes available for self-made classes, most of whom were the authors themselves.

A penalty would enforce balance, but not fun. It would force votes, and I don't want to make anyone do anything. Some authors choose not to vote (for reasons other than that they're lowering their chances) and I want to keep it that way.

In the prestige class contest we've always had a policy of "if you vote for yourself, people give you the stinkeye"; its not expressly forbidden but we've all frowned upon it. I don't think I'd ever vote for myself in a contest, to be fair, but I may be a minority and it may just be because I run a contest.

-X

Tanuki Tales
2012-11-09, 04:03 PM
Sorry for chiming in late to this...but...

I have to say that the toxicity being discussed is completely alien to me. Yes, my contest is still young and short in the tooth, but I've never seen any issues with allowing folks to vote for their own entries (yet). I mean, it's a big thing to get anyone to vote period, so that might be part of the reason and we do give out a lot of trophies (actually adding 8 or so new ones pretty soon), so maybe that's part of the reason too.

sirpercival
2012-11-09, 04:12 PM
Here's the thing, though... assuming every entrant votes, then allowing votes for oneself basically means that each one is only voting for 2 other classes. It's more interesting if you have to vote for other classes.

Plus, of course you're going to vote for yours -- you wrote it, you like it. Pick the other entries that you like!

ErrantX
2012-11-09, 04:15 PM
Here's the thing, though... assuming every entrant votes, then allowing votes for oneself basically means that each one is only voting for 2 other classes. It's more interesting if you have to vote for other classes.

Plus, of course you're going to vote for yours -- you wrote it, you like it. Pick the other entries that you like!

That's why its plainly discouraged in my contest. Vote for others, its lame to vote for yourself.

-X

Tanuki Tales
2012-11-09, 06:57 PM
Plus, of course you're going to vote for yours -- you wrote it, you like it. Pick the other entries that you like!

7 voting threads in, 9 contests and this doesn't seem to be the behavior most of the time of those entrants who did bother to cast a vote (and in one case there were literally only 3 entries and only two of them even fit the flavor). So I guess I'll take your word for it, but this has yet to become a problem for my contest.

I'll keep my eye out on the voting threads from now on though.

Temotei
2012-11-10, 03:12 AM
7 voting threads in, 9 contests and this doesn't seem to be the behavior most of the time of those entrants who did bother to cast a vote (and in one case there were literally only 3 entries and only two of them even fit the flavor). So I guess I'll take your word for it, but this has yet to become a problem for my contest.

I'll keep my eye out on the voting threads from now on though.

People were almost obligated to vote for themselves if they wanted to win because everyone else was doing it. Discouragement seems to deter self-votes a bit, but it's difficult to just say, "Hey!" and get people to stop voting for themselves that way. The most popular/best classes are often neck-in-neck in the voting thread.

Besides, if everyone votes for themselves, it only artificially inflates scores for the authors that did vote.

Also, I asked a bunch of people in the previous chat thread what they thought, and they said they would prefer it be a rule. I'd be okay with calling another vote, however, if you, X, or Silva particularly object. It's only fair.

Silva Stormrage
2012-11-10, 02:56 PM
I don't particularly care, I mean I was just curious as I wasn't there when it was decided and the last one I participated in we were allowed. So I was just curious on the reasoning.

kanachi
2012-11-11, 07:28 AM
Maybe impose a -3 score penalty for each entry which is removed when the creator votes? This way everyone doesn't just vote for their own class and it gives incentive to vote at all.

Generally speaking I find it best to reward people for doing things rather than punish them for not doing so. So a better version of this system would be to give each person who votes 1 bonus point and keep the rule of no voting for yourself. Why only 1 point? Well not everyone can vote or has time to vote but its nice to say "thanks!" to those who do make the time (I always try to pm people who vote for my classes if i can to say thanks anyway).

You could take this system further and incentivise people to vote early and not vote tactically (waiting till near the end before casting your vote for max effect) by giving the first X number of designers who vote an additional bonus point. If this would be worth it or not I’m unsure.

Anyway something to think about.

Silva Stormrage
2012-11-13, 02:48 AM
Hey do we need to wait till the voting is done to post the creations on the homebrew boards?

Temotei
2012-11-13, 04:19 AM
Hey do we need to wait till the voting is done to post the creations on the homebrew boards?

No. However, changes made to the class need to stay outside of the contest thread until after the contest voting is concluded. All voting will be based on the contest version.

Also, if you post it before voting is done and you win, you can't put that in the thread title. :smalltongue:

It's not against the rules, though. Go ahead.

FireInTheSky
2012-11-13, 07:26 AM
I don't know if anyone has had this idea already, but I want to make a Sublime Soldier with Falling Anvil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122824)! :biggrin:

Tavar
2012-11-13, 09:48 PM
No. However, changes made to the class need to stay outside of the contest thread until after the contest voting is concluded. All voting will be based on the contest version.

Also, if you post it before voting is done and you win, you can't put that in the thread title. :smalltongue:

It's not against the rules, though. Go ahead.

There's a two week window to change the title, so it should be possible.

Temotei
2012-11-13, 10:11 PM
There's a two week window to change the title, so it should be possible.

True, but most people don't look at stuff on the Homebrew forum after that time. There's just so much content these days that only certain homebrews actually get any attention.

Tavar
2012-11-23, 10:49 PM
Has the next theme been decided on?

Temotei
2012-11-23, 10:50 PM
Has the next theme been decided on?

Nope. Got an idea?

Tavar
2012-11-23, 11:16 PM
Well, we still have access to the chart in the old thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13931160&postcount=1416).

sengmeng
2012-11-24, 12:43 AM
Well, we still have access to the chart in the old thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13931160&postcount=1416).

The response was a bit underwhelming.

I have a few suggestions:

Creature Feature- like Race Race, but more monstery.

Cinephilia- recreate a famous movie hero with a base class. (Edit: Dibs on Indiana Jones)

Big Dipper- creating very multiclassing-friendly classes (probably counterintuitive to the purpose of a 20 level base class contest, but oh well).

Bad Juju (is that politically correct?)- Hexes and ill luck.

Silva Stormrage
2012-11-24, 02:07 AM
The response was a bit underwhelming.

I have a few suggestions:

Creature Feature- like Race Race, but more monstery.

Cinephilia- recreate a famous movie hero with a base class. (Edit: Dibs on Indiana Jones)

Big Dipper- creating very multiclassing-friendly classes (probably counterintuitive to the purpose of a 20 level base class contest, but oh well).

Bad Juju (is that politically correct?)- Hexes and ill luck.

I kinda like the Cinephilia one. I personally would wonder if Anime movies would count for that one though. If they do I am all for it :smalltongue:

Temotei
2012-11-24, 03:18 AM
I kinda like the Cinephilia one. I personally would wonder if Anime movies would count for that one though. If they do I am all for it :smalltongue:

Princess Mononoke would be a good subject for that, as would maybe Spirited Away and Howl's Moving Castle, just looking at Miyazaki films.

Morph Bark
2012-11-24, 04:51 AM
For some reason the first thing I thought of when you asked for a new theme was this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KPT5657XD0).

sirpercival
2012-11-24, 07:41 AM
I still like a lot of those ideas in the other thread: true believers, inner planes, time, song-inspired...

Cinephilia is a great idea though. The trick is going to be finding a movie character that's interesting but hasn't been done to death before...

malonkey1
2012-11-24, 09:46 AM
I'm siding with cinephilia here. Snape killed Trinity with M. Night Shamalan's sled!!

sirpercival
2012-11-24, 12:32 PM
If we do cinephilia I'm claiming Inception.

sengmeng
2012-11-25, 02:32 AM
The trick is going to be finding a movie character that's interesting but hasn't been done to death before...

Nothing wrong with beating a dead horse on these forums... there must be thousands of monk fixes already, and there will probably be one more tomorrow.

sirpercival
2012-11-25, 08:10 AM
Nothing wrong with beating a dead horse on these forums... there must be thousands of monk fixes already, and there will probably be one more tomorrow.

Fair enough.


If we do cinephilia I'm claiming Inception.

We have to do this. Because I have so many ideas........ all of the ideas. All of them.

Tavar
2012-11-25, 06:15 PM
Nothing wrong with beating a dead horse on these forums... there must be thousands of monk fixes already, and there will probably be one more tomorrow.

Considering the number of martial artist in films, this contest could easily have a monk fix.

Hell, they could all be monk fixes.

sirpercival
2012-11-27, 06:19 PM
Any word on results/new contest?

Temotei
2012-11-27, 09:08 PM
Any word on results/new contest?

My bad. Really busy here doing papers and stuff. Cinephilia seems like it'll be the new theme. As for the results, I'll update the voting thread.

Temotei
2012-12-02, 04:43 AM
Sorry for the delay. The thread is up. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14311980)

Cinephilia is the theme. Good luck. :smallsmile:

sirpercival
2012-12-02, 08:25 AM
Woohoooo! I'm so excited about the Extractor that I just posted, I'm entering a PbP with one already!

Still writing out soulmelds, but I'd appreciate someone to take a look at it, especially the rather extensive extraction mechanics, if you get a chance. I'll happily PEACH in return when your entry is up.

Quellian-dyrae
2012-12-02, 05:24 PM
Woohoooo! I'm so excited about the Extractor that I just posted, I'm entering a PbP with one already!

Still writing out soulmelds, but I'd appreciate someone to take a look at it, especially the rather extensive extraction mechanics, if you get a chance. I'll happily PEACH in return when your entry is up.

Well, to start off, I just have to say that I find it incredibly amusing that our two classes could easily be the "fighter" and "rogue" classes of some sort of True Nature of Reality power source.

But that aside.

Overall, I think the class looks very well done. It is quite complex, using two subsystems, Inspiration as an additional resource, and Lucid Dreaming which is, itself, a fairly extensive skill. Not necessarily a bad thing, and I do like how all the abilities work together, tied in through Inspiration.

However, I'm not sure about the maneuvers as a daily resource. Maneuvers don't tend to be so powerful that a daily limit is really necessary (a cursory look over the discipline doesn't really make me think it's significantly stronger than normal). This is compounded by the fact that the class lacks reliable ways to deal solid damage. Even the maneuvers tend to be more tactical and debuff style, which can still work in a party, but I'm not sure they can use their maneuvers often enough to really make a strong claim to a debuffer role.

I suppose it makes me ask, is it really worth having a whole additional subsystem in play, for abilities balanced for per-encounter use that are being used at a per-day rate?

I really like Contagious Awakening. It helps deal with the issue of being in a skill-based challenge and the non-skill characters being unable to try and do anything. The Lucid Projection is also an interesting way to work with the balance issues of companion class features.

The Extraction mechanic...I think suffers from the nature of D&D. It's very cool and I like how you integrated the various skills and force the opposition to use a lot of skills, giving a nice advantage to the dreamer despite the number of checks. It has the advantage that it isn't technically a divination (or Mind Affecting?), it's potentially subtle, and it can be used remotely. Even so, it's way less efficient than a lot of other magical ways to get information in D&D...even a bard with Suggestion and Modify Memory. It definitely has its niche, I'm just not sure how often that niche will come up in play. It just seems like in play it would be relegated to more of a flavor ability that might come up if the DM builds a challenge around it, rather than being the cornerstone of the class.

One actual mechanical problem, though, unless the first Gather Information check doesn't take time and only successive ones take normal time, that Extractions below Complexity 5 (DC 30) basically auto-fail, since you don't have enough time to make even a single Gather Information check (with successful Disguise and Forgery, you have a 50% chance that Complexity 4 will work).

Overall, I like the class, but I definitely think it's going to be campaign-dependent. In a more urban/political game, it can be awesome. In a more traditional adventure setting, it has lots of utility, but I feel it might have trouble making reliable contributions, depending on optimization levels (it does have a high enough sheer volume of capabilities that I imagine it has a decently high optimization floor, so that will help).

Silva Stormrage
2012-12-02, 08:33 PM
Hm I am not sure on what to do for this one. I definitely will participate in it though.

sirpercival
2012-12-02, 09:07 PM
Well, to start off, I just have to say that I find it incredibly amusing that our two classes could easily be the "fighter" and "rogue" classes of some sort of True Nature of Reality power source. That... is awesome. Where would these guys (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253629) fit in?


But that aside.

Overall, I think the class looks very well done. It is quite complex, using two subsystems, Inspiration as an additional resource, and Lucid Dreaming which is, itself, a fairly extensive skill. Not necessarily a bad thing, and I do like how all the abilities work together, tied in through Inspiration. Yes, I had so many ideas for what mechanics to use that... I decided to use all of them. :smallredface:


However, I'm not sure about the maneuvers as a daily resource. Maneuvers don't tend to be so powerful that a daily limit is really necessary (a cursory look over the discipline doesn't really make me think it's significantly stronger than normal). This is compounded by the fact that the class lacks reliable ways to deal solid damage. Even the maneuvers tend to be more tactical and debuff style, which can still work in a party, but I'm not sure they can use their maneuvers often enough to really make a strong claim to a debuffer role.

I suppose it makes me ask, is it really worth having a whole additional subsystem in play, for abilities balanced for per-encounter use that are being used at a per-day rate? Well, the point for having them be per-day rather than per encounter is that the original factotum only got up to 7th level spells rather than 9th level maneuvers. And didn't have soulmelds to bolster their abilities. But in considering actually playing one, I know I personally would love to be able to use my maneuvers more often. Do you think it's still balanced to let the maneuvers be per-encounter instead of per-day?


The Extraction mechanic...I think suffers from the nature of D&D. It's very cool and I like how you integrated the various skills and force the opposition to use a lot of skills, giving a nice advantage to the dreamer despite the number of checks. It has the advantage that it isn't technically a divination (or Mind Affecting?), it's potentially subtle, and it can be used remotely. Even so, it's way less efficient than a lot of other magical ways to get information in D&D...even a bard with Suggestion and Modify Memory. It definitely has its niche, I'm just not sure how often that niche will come up in play. It just seems like in play it would be relegated to more of a flavor ability that might come up if the DM builds a challenge around it, rather than being the cornerstone of the class. Well, let me say that I never intended extraction to be a divination replacement, particularly not a quick-and-dirty one. It's more of a plot- and roleplaying-generating mechanism. You wouldn't be performing an extraction every adventuring day; instead, you might spend an entire gaming session roleplaying through an extraction when it's just the sort of subtlety you need. So yes, your instinct is correct, and exactly what I intended.

I spent a lot of time working out the mechanics of a relatively situational ability... mostly because they're central to the concept of the class (and to the inspiration), and also to make them awesome for when they do happen.


One actual mechanical problem, though, unless the first Gather Information check doesn't take time and only successive ones take normal time, that Extractions below Complexity 5 (DC 30) basically auto-fail, since you don't have enough time to make even a single Gather Information check (with successful Disguise and Forgery, you have a 50% chance that Complexity 4 will work). I can is maths good. I will up the durations in the complexity table.


Overall, I like the class, but I definitely think it's going to be campaign-dependent. In a more urban/political game, it can be awesome. In a more traditional adventure setting, it has lots of utility, but I feel it might have trouble making reliable contributions, depending on optimization levels (it does have a high enough sheer volume of capabilities that I imagine it has a decently high optimization floor, so that will help). Perhaps if I change the maneuvers to per-encounter, that would help with the day-to-day contributions? Also, the soulmelds are likely to help with that as well. At least, I hope so.

I'm glad you like it! I'll take a look at Neo when I get a chance (probably after Wednesday).

sirpercival
2012-12-02, 09:11 PM
Well, to start off, I just have to say that I find it incredibly amusing that our two classes could easily be the "fighter" and "rogue" classes of some sort of True Nature of Reality power source. That... is awesome. Where would these guys (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253629) fit in?


But that aside.

Overall, I think the class looks very well done. It is quite complex, using two subsystems, Inspiration as an additional resource, and Lucid Dreaming which is, itself, a fairly extensive skill. Not necessarily a bad thing, and I do like how all the abilities work together, tied in through Inspiration. Yes, I had so many ideas for what mechanics to use that... I decided to use all of them. :smallredface:


However, I'm not sure about the maneuvers as a daily resource. Maneuvers don't tend to be so powerful that a daily limit is really necessary (a cursory look over the discipline doesn't really make me think it's significantly stronger than normal). This is compounded by the fact that the class lacks reliable ways to deal solid damage. Even the maneuvers tend to be more tactical and debuff style, which can still work in a party, but I'm not sure they can use their maneuvers often enough to really make a strong claim to a debuffer role.

I suppose it makes me ask, is it really worth having a whole additional subsystem in play, for abilities balanced for per-encounter use that are being used at a per-day rate? Well, the point for having them be per-day rather than per encounter is that the original factotum only got up to 7th level spells rather than 9th level maneuvers. And didn't have soulmelds to bolster their abilities. But in considering actually playing one, I know I personally would love to be able to use my maneuvers more often. Do you think it's still balanced to let the maneuvers be per-encounter instead of per-day? I could reduce the progression to give fewer maneuvers, if that would help.


The Extraction mechanic...I think suffers from the nature of D&D. It's very cool and I like how you integrated the various skills and force the opposition to use a lot of skills, giving a nice advantage to the dreamer despite the number of checks. It has the advantage that it isn't technically a divination (or Mind Affecting?), it's potentially subtle, and it can be used remotely. Even so, it's way less efficient than a lot of other magical ways to get information in D&D...even a bard with Suggestion and Modify Memory. It definitely has its niche, I'm just not sure how often that niche will come up in play. It just seems like in play it would be relegated to more of a flavor ability that might come up if the DM builds a challenge around it, rather than being the cornerstone of the class. Well, let me say that I never intended extraction to be a divination replacement, particularly not a quick-and-dirty one. It's more of a plot- and roleplaying-generating mechanism. You wouldn't be performing an extraction every adventuring day; instead, you might spend an entire gaming session roleplaying through an extraction when it's just the sort of subtlety you need. So yes, your instinct is correct, and exactly what I intended.

I spent a lot of time working out the mechanics of a relatively situational ability... mostly because they're central to the concept of the class (and to the inspiration), and also to make them awesome for when they do happen.


One actual mechanical problem, though, unless the first Gather Information check doesn't take time and only successive ones take normal time, that Extractions below Complexity 5 (DC 30) basically auto-fail, since you don't have enough time to make even a single Gather Information check (with successful Disguise and Forgery, you have a 50% chance that Complexity 4 will work). I can is maths good. I will up the durations in the complexity table.


Overall, I like the class, but I definitely think it's going to be campaign-dependent. In a more urban/political game, it can be awesome. In a more traditional adventure setting, it has lots of utility, but I feel it might have trouble making reliable contributions, depending on optimization levels (it does have a high enough sheer volume of capabilities that I imagine it has a decently high optimization floor, so that will help). Perhaps if I change the maneuvers to per-encounter, that would help with the day-to-day contributions? Also, the soulmelds are likely to help with that as well. At least, I hope so.

I'm glad you like it! I'll take a look at Neo when I get a chance (probably after Wednesday).

Silva Stormrage
2012-12-02, 10:03 PM
Hm, I was thinking of doing a Percy Jackson one based off of the Percy Jackson movie but the movie kinda diverges from the books a lot and I was going to take some stuff thats book only. Would that be allowed? Or should it be only focused on the movies.

Quellian-dyrae
2012-12-02, 11:47 PM
Well, the point for having them be per-day rather than per encounter is that the original factotum only got up to 7th level spells rather than 9th level maneuvers. And didn't have soulmelds to bolster their abilities. But in considering actually playing one, I know I personally would love to be able to use my maneuvers more often. Do you think it's still balanced to let the maneuvers be per-encounter instead of per-day? I could reduce the progression to give fewer maneuvers, if that would help.

I think it would be okay. Maneuvers don't tend to be as powerful as spells at equal level, and these guys are limited to a single discipline, where factotums get the whole sor/wiz list.


Well, let me say that I never intended extraction to be a divination replacement, particularly not a quick-and-dirty one. It's more of a plot- and roleplaying-generating mechanism. You wouldn't be performing an extraction every adventuring day; instead, you might spend an entire gaming session roleplaying through an extraction when it's just the sort of subtlety you need. So yes, your instinct is correct, and exactly what I intended.

I spent a lot of time working out the mechanics of a relatively situational ability... mostly because they're central to the concept of the class (and to the inspiration), and also to make them awesome for when they do happen.

Gotcha. I wasn't actually quite sure how it would work, if it was meant to be a mission in itself (like the movie), or more of a, roll these checks, okay you succeed, you learn this. I was reading it more along the latter lines.

Knowing it's the former, though, I wonder if maybe it would be worth revising to less about a single procedure, and more a selection of individual actions to use in Lucid Dreaming. So like, designing a maze, for example, might deny the target the normal bonuses for being in its own dreamscape for the duration, the Gather Information check could simply let you find specific pieces of information in the target's dreams, the Bluff check lets you avoid notice. Basically, keeping the functions largely the same, but...I guess presenting them more as discrete options that you can use tactically rather than as the rules for an Extraction Minigame. It would also open up some more options for higher-level abilities if you wanted to go that route...maybe a high-level Extractor could also plant information or even ideas in the target's "safe" or whatever.


Perhaps if I change the maneuvers to per-encounter, that would help with the day-to-day contributions? Also, the soulmelds are likely to help with that as well. At least, I hope so.

That's what I'd figure. The Soulmelds will help (and I didn't study them in great detail, so I may have missed something), but they struck me as more utility-oriented. Most of the offensive ones seem to help you score hits, but not really make your hits much stronger (although, Daydream Gloves makes any sort of one-attack-per-round option quite attractive). So, I guess it's a question of just how big an effect those maneuvers will have.

Tavar
2012-12-03, 12:06 AM
Hey, to let everyone know, I'm re-opening recruitment for a game, one of which's main features is that homebrew is heavily encouraged. Here, if anyone cares. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263295)

sirpercival
2012-12-03, 12:06 AM
I think it would be okay. Maneuvers don't tend to be as powerful as spells at equal level, and these guys are limited to a single discipline, where factotums get the whole sor/wiz list. Yeah, agreed. I've made the change; they are now per encounter rather than per day.



Gotcha. I wasn't actually quite sure how it would work, if it was meant to be a mission in itself (like the movie), or more of a, roll these checks, okay you succeed, you learn this. I was reading it more along the latter lines.

Knowing it's the former, though, I wonder if maybe it would be worth revising to less about a single procedure, and more a selection of individual actions to use in Lucid Dreaming. So like, designing a maze, for example, might deny the target the normal bonuses for being in its own dreamscape for the duration, the Gather Information check could simply let you find specific pieces of information in the target's dreams, the Bluff check lets you avoid notice. Basically, keeping the functions largely the same, but...I guess presenting them more as discrete options that you can use tactically rather than as the rules for an Extraction Minigame. It would also open up some more options for higher-level abilities if you wanted to go that route...maybe a high-level Extractor could also plant information or even ideas in the target's "safe" or whatever. Hey... that's a very cool idea, which fits even better with what I originally wanted. I think I'm going to try and implement it.

sengmeng
2012-12-03, 12:55 AM
Archaeologist is up. Looking for balance; I already know his HD and BAB are probably too high, but I can't accept Indiana Jones as a d8 and 3/4 BAB.

malonkey1
2012-12-03, 07:48 AM
Archaeologist is up. Looking for balance; I already know his HD and BAB are probably too high, but I can't accept Indiana Jones as a d8 and 3/4 BAB.

Actually, he always looked to be a skill-monkey to me, but perhaps it's not high HP so much as a high AC. Perhaps a luck or dodge bonus to AC as a class feature?

sengmeng
2012-12-03, 10:22 AM
Actually, he always looked to be a skill-monkey to me, but perhaps it's not high HP so much as a high AC. Perhaps a luck or dodge bonus to AC as a class feature?

My interpretation is definitely also a skillmonkey and has ways to get his AC to decent levels. He seems to have high AC until he gets into a fistfight or dragged behind a truck. Basically, the director only let him dodge the stuff that would have killed him. He takes several pretty severe beatings throughout the movies.

Techwarrior
2012-12-07, 01:17 AM
Damn you! Now I have to do a class based on Johnny Mnemonic just so I can put

I. want. ROOM SERVICE!

as my class quote...

I approve.

sirpercival
2012-12-08, 09:56 AM
Finished the soulmelds! I still have to do my rewrite of the Extraction mechanics, however...

Kazyan
2012-12-08, 06:47 PM
Okay, I have an...idea.

If I explicitly reference things in movies, can I get in trouble for intellectual property or whatever? Because there's going to be a lot of that.

EDIT: Okay, some stuff is up. I will not being going too in-depth into each vestige, because, uh, that's a lot of work and I have to give everyone else some space...

Morph Bark
2012-12-09, 06:27 AM
/resubmits Son of Man for Disney

/banned from the challenge forever

Just to Browse
2012-12-10, 04:07 AM
Well, I'm doing the plenty-old theme of capturing [stuff] and sealing it inside a [noun], namely beasties and film reels.

EDIT: Aaaaaaaand I double posted. I reported it, please don't be mad at me.

Morph Bark
2012-12-10, 04:09 AM
If you click to Edit a post, you can select an option to delete the post near the top.

Kazyan
2012-12-10, 11:13 AM
So I gave the talerender Outsider type and at-will Alter Self in the same vestige, in two seperate granted abilities, without ever making the connection. This is, like, Optimization 101.

It was only the second vestige.

...I should not be allowed to have nice things. *fixes*

Just to Browse
2012-12-10, 03:37 PM
If you click to Edit a post, you can select an option to delete the post near the top.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/199/693/disgusted-mother-of-god.png

Tavar
2012-12-10, 09:32 PM
In case anyone was unsure, yes, my class is essentially Jame Bond, the Base class.

sirpercival
2012-12-10, 09:44 PM
In case anyone was unsure, yes, my class is essentially Jame Bond, the Base class.

I was wondering who would go for that... :D

Suggestions for other disciplines: Interesting Times (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6830.0), Perplexing Essence (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7527.0;msg=116256).

Tavar
2012-12-10, 10:22 PM
Well, the other idea would have been a jedi thing, but we already have eleventy billion of those.

falloutimperial
2012-12-13, 08:07 AM
This is my first time in a homebrew contest, so I am very open to suggestions on my "Movie Hero" class. Specifically, I fear the level twenty ability is too strong.

lt_murgen
2012-12-13, 10:44 AM
This is my first time posting to a challenge thread, and my first time posting one of my homebrew base classes.

The War Medic.

Any advice would be most welcome.

Tavar
2012-12-13, 10:39 PM
lt_murgen, I think your BaB got messed up somewhere: the last level should be 15, not 14.


Anyone have a good name for the capstone ability of the Agent?

sirpercival
2012-12-13, 10:51 PM
lt_murgen, I think your BaB got messed up somewhere: the last level should be 15, not 14.


Anyone have a good name for the capstone ability of the Agent?

For Your Eyes Only

Tavar
2012-12-13, 11:22 PM
And thank you.

Well, I think the class is almost done mechanically. I think I need to manipulate things so the Dead Levels aren't so bad, so probably only the 11th and 19th levels need work. Peach would be welcome.

Now to finish the fluff parts.

lt_murgen
2012-12-19, 06:15 PM
lt_murgen, I think your BaB got messed up somewhere: the last level should be 15, not 14.


Anyone have a good name for the capstone ability of the Agent?

Thanks, fixed.

Still working on the spell list. I just cannot get it to format right....

sirpercival
2013-01-12, 08:22 AM
Contest ends tomorrow!

I'm still working on the new version of the extraction rules, so I'm going to leave them as-is for the contest and update later. Hopefully it's still good! Lol.

Fortuna
2013-01-14, 08:13 PM
Awww. I was wandering through some old homebrew of mine and saw a link to the competition in Temotei's sig... a couple of days after the competition closed. :smallfrown:

Oh well. I guess I'll be throwing my hat into the next ring that comes along!

Just to Browse
2013-01-14, 11:31 PM
Ahhhh crud. I thought the due date was tomorrow, not yesterday. :smallfrown:

Is there a method by which I could request an exception? Or am I doomed to lose a kneecap for an unfinished class?

Morph Bark
2013-01-15, 03:50 AM
If the voting thread hasn't been posted yet, you could go ahead and finish your class ASAP and hope for the best that it may be included, and if it won't be, you can post it seperately later anyway, since it's finished.

About half my entries into contests have seen an edit slightly over the supposed deadline, but prior to the making of the voting thread, and at those times it was fine, but at least one of those entries weren't the Base Class Challenge, and I've entered the BCC before Temotei began to run it, too, so take this with a grain of salt.

Temotei
2013-01-15, 06:30 PM
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14534694) we are.

Sorry for the delay; I've been busy with break and the start of a new semester. I allowed changes up to today. If anyone changes it before midnight (GMT -6:00, Central Time USA), I'll allow that, too. This is mostly because of my lack of communication with you guys. Thanks for your patience.

Also, nice job finishing. Only one class posted in the thread was unfinished.

sengmeng
2013-01-16, 04:20 PM
Well, thanks for including me even though I forgot a picture. I hadn't figured out the legalese to include one without DQ-ing myself, and then I forgot. If you google image search "archaeologist," the 11th picture to come up is pretty much what I was thinking. :smallsmile:

Temotei
2013-01-16, 06:59 PM
Well, thanks for including me even though I forgot a picture. I hadn't figured out the legalese to include one without DQ-ing myself, and then I forgot. If you google image search "archaeologist," the 11th picture to come up is pretty much what I was thinking. :smallsmile:

Pictures have always just been a happy addition to the classes rather than a requirement.

It's the tenth for me. :smalltongue: I love the capstone and I read it to my roommate and he laughed pretty hard, too.

sirpercival
2013-01-17, 12:14 PM
Hey Temo, I'd like to request the chance to edit something in Extractor. It currently links to the Infinite Shore discipline on minmaxboards (which is down); the creator of said discipline ported it to another forum last night, and I'd like to change the link to a page that works and people can actually look at. Would that be alright, or is it grounds for DQ?

Temotei
2013-01-17, 05:02 PM
Hey Temo, I'd like to request the chance to edit something in Extractor. It currently links to the Infinite Shore discipline on minmaxboards (which is down); the creator of said discipline ported it to another forum last night, and I'd like to change the link to a page that works and people can actually look at. Would that be alright, or is it grounds for DQ?

If it's just fixing a broken or wrong link, that's fine.

For future reference, if I notice edit dates being past the closing date, I'll ask you (you being the creator) what's up. It's best to ask before editing, though, so thank you, sirpercival.

Also, thank you for coming to these boards because I love your work. :smallredface:

sirpercival
2013-01-17, 05:06 PM
If it's just fixing a broken or wrong link, that's fine.

For future reference, if I notice edit dates being past the closing date, I'll ask you (you being the creator) what's up. It's best to ask before editing, though, so thank you, sirpercival.Thanks! Link fixed.


Also, thank you for coming to these boards because I love your work. :smallredface: Aw, thank you!! I'm glad to have a fan :D

Tavar
2013-01-22, 09:00 AM
Anyone know if the Interesting times discipline has been depleted anywhere? I would like to fix the link if possible, and if not I will probably remove the discipline from the class.

sirpercival
2013-01-22, 09:49 AM
Anyone know if the Interesting times discipline has been depleted anywhere? I would like to fix the link if possible, and if not I will probably remove the discipline from the class.

I'll ask Bozwevial to repost it on RuleofCool -- I'll get a link for you ASAP.

sirpercival
2013-01-22, 08:22 PM
I'll ask Bozwevial to repost it on RuleofCool -- I'll get a link for you ASAP.

Here you go! (http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php/topic,824.0.html)

sengmeng
2013-01-28, 02:28 PM
Any ideas for the next contest? I resubmit...



Creature Feature- like Race Race, but more monstery.

Big Dipper- creating very multiclassing-friendly classes (probably counterintuitive to the purpose of a 20 level base class contest, but oh well).

Bad Juju (is that politically correct?)- Hexes and ill luck.

...and add:

Itemizer- classes that rely on certain items, magical or otherwise

Aint no Style Like Combat Style- taking names and looking good!

Heroes of Note- musically inclined classes

My Philosophy Can Beat Up Your Philosophy- monk fixes, maybe

Heck, we could just all do core class fixes. Call it Fixer Upper.

bobthe6th
2013-01-28, 02:33 PM
End of an era- Wizard fixes.

sengmeng
2013-01-28, 02:36 PM
End of THE WORLD- Wizard fixes.

Fixed that for you.

Just to Browse
2013-01-28, 02:49 PM
Oh god I don't even -- Base classes taking themes from 4chan /tg/ threads.

In actual seriousness.

I support bad juju and heroes of note. I'm against the idea of a contest for class fixes, Creature Feature, and Itemizer because those feel too narrow in scope.

I also submit the themes of SCIENCE! and Shadows. Both of those have a liberal number of interpretations.

Morph Bark
2013-01-28, 02:56 PM
I like the idea of SCIENCE!, but I wonder... could we perhaps do something with horrifying things, things of MADNESS!?

With either, you can of course get a combination of the two. :smallamused:

bobthe6th
2013-01-28, 03:01 PM
Into the elements- elementally themed classes

Master of blank- classes that are master of something.

greater then the sum of its parts- hybrid classes. Like the paladin, or the duskblade.

malonkey1
2013-01-28, 03:07 PM
Sword and Sorcery: Combining the Martial and the Magical

sirpercival
2013-01-28, 03:09 PM
Slack & Hash: classes themed after a particular food.

sengmeng
2013-01-28, 03:15 PM
Slack & Hash: classes themed after a particular food.

I lol'ed.

If we do this, I'm making the Gluttonous Adept.

Temotei
2013-01-28, 03:54 PM
I support bad juju and heroes of note.

For the record, apparently "juju" was a European term used to describe West African religions in a somewhat derogatory manner. If the contest goes through, it'll be named something else to avoid conflict with rules and with individuals who might be offended.

Note that this is actually a response to sengmeng's question on whether it's politically correct; this is just the latest post with the word in it.


I also submit the themes of SCIENCE!

That'd be fun. :smallsmile:


I like the idea of SCIENCE!, but I wonder... could we perhaps do something with horrifying things, things of MADNESS!?

This is my favorite idea, though.


Slack & Hash: classes themed after a particular food.

Muehehe. :smallamused:

Creature Feature probably won't go through because of Race Race; at least, not for a while. Big Dipper also will most likely never go through because this is a base class contest, not a contest to see who can make the best levels 1-3 with some cool filler content past that. Itemizer would be pretty hard for a whole contest of base classes. I think it'd work better for the Potpourri, Pathfinder Grab Bag, or the Prestige Class contests.

Tavar
2013-01-28, 10:22 PM
Temotei, are you ok with me changing the link in my class so that it's no longer broken?

sirpercival
2013-01-28, 10:24 PM
What about Gentlemen of Leisure: Classes that do nothing, but do it splendidly?

Temotei
2013-01-29, 02:09 AM
Temotei, are you ok with me changing the link in my class so that it's no longer broken?

That's fine. Sirpercival had this problem before.

sengmeng
2013-01-30, 03:33 PM
It looks like Heroes of Note, Something Bad Luck, Slack and Hash, SCIENCE and MADNESS have all been seconded so far.

From the chart in the old thread, Inner Planes, Time, and Alternate Magic all had two votes each.

Temotei
2013-02-03, 06:21 PM
Alright, so. There was a 2nd-place tie, so I broke it as I would have for first place. Quellian's "awakened" has an honorable mention due to this, since it would have been the third place class had I not tie-broken the other two.

Congratulations, everyone. Good contest again. :smallsmile:

*Grumble*Another kneecap for sirpercival*Grumble*Going to have to put them somewhere...*Grumble*

Tavar
2013-02-03, 06:41 PM
Darn, I was hopeful for my a first place finish. Oh well.


So, when does the next one start?

Temotei
2013-02-03, 06:45 PM
So, when does the next one start?

Now (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270292). :smalltongue:

I chose SCIENCE! because you can go in a lot of directions with that one and madness is optional.

EDIT: One second wait for this post. Wat is gong on, guise.

Morph Bark
2013-02-03, 06:47 PM
This means I will have to come out of retirement to make sure sirpercival does not attain a fourth win in a row (come on, people). Honour demands it.

Luckily the theme is being favourably inspiring to me.

Temotei
2013-02-03, 06:48 PM
This means I will have to come out of retirement to make sure sirpercival does not attain a fourth win in a row (come on, people). Honour demands it.

Luckily the theme is being favourably inspiring to me.

Muehehe. BUAHAHAHAHAll part of the planHAHAHAHAHA :smallcool:

bobthe6th
2013-02-03, 07:34 PM
Is it silly to scream FIRST? also, I actualy do have a concept for this one. It is based of the idea I saw in a thread(introducing modern concepts to a normal D&D game), but expanded. This should cover Sir Boss, and a random WWII era commando in equal measure.

thethird
2013-02-03, 08:10 PM
I'm gonna throw my kneecaps at the contest. 'Brewing seems fun.

Amechra
2013-02-03, 08:26 PM
Yeah, I'll have to do the beating of sirpercival in this one.

My honor demands it! (Plus, I have sources. Creepypasta-ish (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqfuqNq3vHg) sources.)

sirpercival
2013-02-03, 10:06 PM
This means I will have to come out of retirement to make sure sirpercival does not attain a fourth win in a row (come on, people). Honour demands it.

Luckily the theme is being favourably inspiring to me.


Yeah, I'll have to do the beating of sirpercival in this one.

My honor demands it! (Plus, I have sources. Creepypasta-ish (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqfuqNq3vHg) sources.)

Wow... um... thanks, I guess? Lol.

Honestly I'm happy if my success is inspiring people to new heights of awesome homebrewery.

And thank you for the votes, this was a close one with a ton of good 'brew. Now, let's go figure out some SCIENCE!

sengmeng
2013-02-03, 11:57 PM
I'm gonna throw my kneecaps at the contest. 'Brewing seems fun.

You said that English was not your first language in your entry, but you have a firm grasp of humor. Well done.

dspeyer
2013-02-04, 12:44 AM
Is anyone else tempted to write a Baker class who's cake is so delicious that people go through all sorts of trouble to get at it?

Just me?

Ah, well.

Fortuna
2013-02-04, 01:35 AM
...oh come on. My first serious entry in a competition for years and Morph's coming out of retirement? What a welcome party. :smallyuk:

Eh, what the hey. Never won a damn thing in my life anyway. Best of luck, folks. I'm thinking to build a class that works somewhat similarly to a barbarian, but instead of raging they enter a state of perfect clarity. The longer the clarity lasts, the more powerful the abilities they can access, riddling out the secrets of the universe each time. At later levels they'll gain the ability to use a diluted version of the same ability for utility power.

EDIT: You need to update the link to the chat thread in the competition OP. It still goes to the second chat thread.

thethird
2013-02-04, 03:37 AM
You said that English was not your first language in your entry, but you have a firm grasp of humor. Well done.

Thank you :smallbiggrin:. I actually spend a big deal of my time reading, and some books are easier to get in English than in Spanish. And I have a couple of English degrees that "certify" that I speak English. So I guess I do speak it. I still make a lot of silly mistakes though.

Temotei
2013-02-04, 05:16 AM
You need to update the link to the chat thread in the competition OP. It still goes to the second chat thread.

I had a niggling suspicion of the link but I wanted to log out then, so I didn't check. Thanks. :smallsmile:

Fortuna
2013-02-04, 05:21 AM
I had a niggling suspicion of the link but I wanted to log out then, so I didn't check. Thanks. :smallsmile:

Any time, old chum.

sirpercival
2013-02-04, 07:29 AM
Alright, I think I don't really have any choice, given my background, to write anything other than an Astronomer class. So, that's happening.

Temotei
2013-02-04, 07:42 AM
Alright, I think I don't really have any choice, given my background, to write anything other than an Astronomer class. So, that's happening.

Too bad you weren't here for the space-themed contest. That would have fit perfectly. Still fits, though.

I'll nap after class, I said. I'll just stay up so I can continue studying, I said. MY EYES ARE DRY.

Fortuna
2013-02-04, 07:47 AM
Posted the beginnings of my class. I'm aware that the name Savant is already taken, but I couldn't find a better one. Any suggestions are more than welcome. I may be less terse when not sleepy.

sirpercival
2013-02-04, 07:49 AM
Too bad you weren't here for the space-themed contest. That would have fit perfectly. Still fits, though.

I'll nap after class, I said. I'll just stay up so I can continue studying, I said. MY EYES ARE DRY.

Yeah... that was before my time :)

Fortuna
2013-02-05, 12:47 AM
Fluff is complete, Principles are complete, first Insights are posted... I could feel good about myself if not for how much more work everyone else has done.

malonkey1
2013-02-05, 08:37 AM
Well, my class is up. Gotta work on writing up ALL the gadget descritions. If somebody could look at my class and tell me if the language is clear, that'd be awesome.

sirpercival
2013-02-05, 11:09 AM
Alrighty, the base mechanics of the Astronomer are finished. I've started work on the Phenomena and Constellations, and the fluff will be added soon as well.

Someone already told me they want to play one in a PbP that's starting up, so I'm going to try and finish as quickly as possible. If anyone wants to take a gander at the mechanics, that would be lovely.

thethird
2013-02-05, 12:09 PM
I'll give it a look once I finish my tea. Tea is serious business.

If someone wants to give a look to my verbosity, I mean the aperturing process I would really appreciate it. I might be too complex and I might be pretty bad at translating my thoughts.

sirpercival
2013-02-05, 12:27 PM
I'll give it a look once I finish my tea. Tea is serious business. Excellent! Make sure you reload the page (if you had it open already), I made a couple edits.

thethird
2013-02-05, 02:11 PM
Astronomer

Relevant image (http://ut-images.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/astronomer.jpg)

I conclude, therefore, that this star is not some kind of comet or a fiery meteor... but that it is a star shining in the firmament itself one that has never previously been seen before our time, in any age since the beginning of the world.

..

Adventures: ..

Characteristics: ..

Alignment: ..

Religion: ..

Background: ..

Races: ..

Other Classes: ..

Role: ..

Adaptation: ..

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Astronomers have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Astronomers require a healthy measure of Intelligence to be able to understand the complex cosmic phenomena they observe, and a helping of Constitution to keep them hale and hardy while adventuring.
Alignment: Any, though as impartial scientists, Astronomers tend towards neutrality.
Hit Die: d6
Starting Age: As wizard.
Starting Gold: As wizard.

Class Skills
The Astronomer's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), and Use Magic Device.

Skill Points at First Level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier

Everything fine up till here. UMD would need a (Cha) after it but it is minor nitpicking.



Astronomer
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Phenomena|Special
1st |+0 |+0|+0|+2 |4 | Observe phenomena, spyglass apprentice
2nd |+1 |+0|+0|+3 |5 | Star chart (least)
3rd |+1 |+1|+1|+3 |6 | Astrolabe technique
4th |+2 |+1|+1|+4 |7 | Orrey, sextant mastery
5th |+2 |+1|+1|+4 |8 | Spyglass initiate
6th |+3 |+2|+2|+5 |8 | Torquetum
7th |+3 |+2|+2|+5 |9 | Astrolabe technique
8th |+4 |+2|+2|+6 |10| Star chart (lesser)
9th |+4 |+3|+3|+6 |11| Spyglass journeyman
10th|+5 |+3|+3|+7 |12| Astrarium
11th|+5 |+3|+3|+7 |12| Astrolabe technique
12th|+6/+1 |+4|+4|+8 |13| Armillary sphere
13th|+6/+1 |+4|+4|+8 |14| Spyglass master
14th|+7/+2 |+4|+4|+9 |15| Star chart (greater)
15th|+7/+2 |+5|+5|+9 |16| Astrolabe technique
16th|+8/+3 |+5|+5|+10|16| Greater orrey
17th|+8/+3 |+5|+5|+10|17| Spyglass grandmaster
18th|+9/+4 |+6|+6|+11|18| Planisphere
19th|+9/+4 |+6|+6|+11|19| Astrolabe technique
20th|+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|20| Cosmos unbound, star chart (advanced)
[/table]



Cool no dead levels, I would also put the phenomena behind the class features (again this is nitpicking.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Astronomer.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: An Astronomer is proficient with all simple weapons and light armor, but not with shields.

Observe phenomena (Su): When learning your trade under the watchful eye of prestigious scientists, you have learned that by and large the denizens of the world are woefully unobservant. Perhaps it is simply that the common folk are untrained, but from your experience there are strange and often dangerous astronomical phenomena happening every day. Why, you have simply to look through your spyglass to see something (usually quite painful) happen to your enemies out of the blue sky.

You can "observe" (read: create) effects called Phenomena by looking through a spyglass as a standard action. You are limited to observing phenomena that you know, and also by properties of your surroundings called Conjunctions. You may only observe phenomena whose Conjunctions are active, and once you observe a phenomenon, the active Conjunctions change, as described in the Phenomena descriptions below. You may observe a maximum of one phenomenon per round. Your Observer Level for phenomena is equal to your Astronomer level, and the save DC for any phenomena you observe is 10 + 1/2 Observer level + your Intelligence modifier. You may not observe a given phenomenon more than once per encounter.

You begin play knowing 2 phenomena from the list below, and learn more as shown on the table above. The only Conjunctions automatically active at the beginning of an encounter are the [Day], [Night], or [Sheltered] Conjunctions, which are generally obvious, and cannot be changed except by certain specific phenomena. Only one of those Conjunctions is active at any given time.

You can add a new Conjunction or change an existing Conjunction by making a Spot check (DC 10 + three times the number of already-active Conjunctions) through a spyglass as a move action. Conjunctions reset at the end of each encounter, and you can have a maximum number of Conjunctions active at any given time equal to half your class level (rounded down, minimum 1) active at any given time; if a Constellation or Phenomenon would increase the number of active Conjunctions past this limit, you choose which Conjunctions to deactivate. The [Day], [Night], and [Sheltered] Conjunctions do not count against this limit.[/quote]

Even if the [day], [night] and [shelter] are obvious I would define them somewhere.

Do those three conjunction [day], [night] and [shelter] count for determining the DC of adding more conjunctions? That would make the basic DC a 13.


Spyglass apprentice (Ex): Your most important tool is your spyglass, so the first thing you learn is how to make one quickly and cheaply, and how to use it effectively. You can make a masterwork spyglass (granting you a +2 circumstance bonus to Spot checks in addition to its normal effects) by spending 24 hours and using 100gp of raw materials. You cannot sell a spyglass you create this way for more than 100gp. In addition, you use your Intelligence bonus instead of your Wisdom bonus for Spot checks made using a spyglass.

This is a source of cheap spyglasses. Since they normally cost 1000 gp having a lot more around for a cost 10 times lower, might be a bit destabilizing. It also works as a masterwork (better than masterwork tool actually) of spot. I would make it grant the +2 circumstance bonus to anyone using it, but key the spyglass effect and the Int instead of wisdom to you.


Star chart (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, you learn to make a Star Chart, which is a method of focusing on particular Constellations, stellar patterns in the sky. Once per day, you can study your Star Chart for 1 hour to focus on any Constellation (see Constellations, below). The Constellation you choose grants you the Least benefit (as described in the particular Constellation description), and also grants you a set of Conjunctions at the beginning of each encounter. At 8th, 14th, and 20th level, you unlock a new tier of Constellation benefits.

After 24 hours, without any intervention on your part, the heavens turn, and you automatically focus on the next Constellation in the progression, granting you the benefits and Conjunctions of that Constellation as normal. You can focus on a different Constellation after 8 hours of rest, by studying your Star Chart for another hour.

Cool


Astrolabe technique (Ex): An astrolabe is an inclinometer used by astronomers to predict the positions of celestial objects. At 3rd level, and again at every 4 levels afterwards, you use an astrolabe to learn a skill which will aid you in your studies of the heavens.

Astrolabe techniques:
Baade's Stars: You have discovered the source of violent energy in the Universe. You gain resistance to the energy type of your choice equal to your Intelligence modifier. You may select this technique multiple times, each time choosing a different energy type.

Cassini's Optics: You have studied the refractive properties of the atmosphere, granting you unparalleled visual awareness and acuity. You are immune to blindness, and may make a Spot check in place of any other Wisdom-based skill check a number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier.

You can make lucid dreaming checks with spot checks (using int instead of wis) on an int focused class? The same for autohypnosis... It might be a bit strong.


Copernicus's Innovation: You have realized that your planet is not the center of the Universe, but merely a petal on a spinning flower. By spending a swift action to recenter yourself and gain perspective, you may gain a second save against a mind-affecting effect which affects you and has a duration longer than instantaneous. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier.

Einstein's Experiments: You perform complex experiments using your mind alone. You can observe phenomena and add or change Conjunctions without using a spyglass.

Galileo's Resolution: You are adept at observing the heavens in great detail. You learn an additional phenomenon. You may select this technique multiple times, each time learning a new phenomenon.

Halley's Transits: You can use your ingenuity to determine the distance between you and your targets by observing the movement of objects between. You may use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Dexterity modifier when making ranged attack rolls.

Herschel's Radiation: Your observations span the spectrum of light, granting you increased awareness of the events around you. You gain blindsense out to a radius of 5 feet times your Intelligence modifier (minimum 5 feet).

Hipparchus's Precession: Your awareness of the variability of systems lets you predict changes in your enemies' behavior. You no longer provoke attacks of opportunity from moving through threatened squares.

Hubble's Expansion: You have noticed that space is expanding, moving objects farther apart. Your base speed increases by twice your Intelligence modifier, rounded up to the nearest multiple of 5 feet.

Kepler's Mathematics: You have learned to calculate and draw inference from celestial arcs, applying rigorous scientific principles to your daily routine. You may use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Constitution modifier to determine your bonus hit points for each of your Astronomer levels, beginning with the level that you gain this ability.

Int to hp? Thanks the cosmos that their class skill list is a bit limited (well they have UMD) but this leads to a good deal of int sadness.


Laplace's Probability: You understand the flows of probability which determine the course of events, allowing you to predict mathematically where your opponents are going to strike. You may use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier when calculating your AC (situations which would deny you your Dexterity bonus to AC, such as being flat-footed, deny you your Intelligence modifier instead).

Newton's Physics: Your scientific mind is beyond compare. Increase the DC of your observed phenomena by +1. You may select this technique multiple times; its effect stacks.

Ptolemy's Epicycles: You intuitively understand that motion is far more complex than most believe, and can use that to your advantage. You may use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Strength modifier when making melee attack rolls.

Tycho's Measurements: You are the consummate observer, meticulous and thorough. Your mind processes information so precisely that it resists effects designed to alter it. You may apply your Intelligence modifier instead of your Wisdom modifier to your Will save bonus.


Some of this are pretty good and would make dipping this a really good idea for an Int SAD build. The names are awesome though.


Orrey (Ex): At 4th level, you construct a new device to aid you in your observations of the heavens. An orrey is used to demonstrate the motion of planets and moons through their orbits; using one allows you to predict certain types of phenomena with more regularity. A number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier, you may ignore 1 required Conjunction when observing a phenomenon.

I assume that you can only create one orrey, can you? Because if you construct them you might be able to construct as many orreys as you want and that would be complicated.


Sextant mastery (Ex): Beginning at 4th level, your experience with an astronomical sextant has reached the point where you can judge astronomical angles at a moment's notice. A number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier, you can add a Conjunction as a swift action instead of a move action, but the DC of the Spot check increases by 3.

I will make it also increase based on the number of conjunctions. Otherwise cool.


Spyglass initiate (Ex): At 5th level, you've practiced so much with your spyglass that you've learned to notice eddies in the air and other similar minutiae, even when creatures are invisible. When looking through a spyglass that you created, you can see invisible creatures (as per the see invisibility spell).

See invisibility is a 2nd level wiz spell, so it seems okay to me to have it at 5th lvl.


Torquetum (Ex): When you achieve 6th level or higher, you learn to compute using a torquetum, a mechanical instrument designed to take and convert measurements in different coordinate systems. By making use of such a device, your Star Chart becomes more efficient, and you can focus on two Constellations per day. Choose two Constellations to focus on when using your Star Chart ability. You gain the benefits of both Constellations at the same time, but only one set of Conjunctions at the beginning of each encounter. You can switch between the Conjunctions of your two chosen Constellations by spending 1 minute studying your Star Chart. After 24 hours, both Constellations progress as normal.

Again I am doubting the limitation on how many of this devices you can create, a note saying that you cannot benefit from using more than one would be nice.


Spyglass journeyman (Su): Starting at 9th level, your connection to your spyglass has taken on supernatural overtones, and you can use it to see far away places that wouldn't normally be visible to you. A number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier, you can produce a clairvoyance effect (as the spell, with a caster level equal to your Astronomer level) as a standard action by looking through a spyglass you created.

Again a 3rd level spell at 9th level seems completely cool.


Astrarium (Ex): Upon reaching 10th level, you learn to use an astrarium to predict eclipses and transits. A number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier, you may spend a full-round action to change the [Sheltered] Conjunction to either [Day] or [Night], as appropriate.

Again, this is using an "item" (how many items can you carry around) also I would specify a duration. And not a long one since you still have quite a lot of uses.


Armillary sphere (Ex): Beginning at 12th level, you graduate to the use of an armillary sphere, giving you a three-dimensional representation of the positions of celestial bodies. This allows to you to construct Star Charts of abundant accuracy and precision, granting you the ability to focus on three Constellations per day. This ability functions identically to the Torquetum ability, but with three Constellations instead of two.

Does it replace the Torquetum? I mean can you have an Armillary sphere and a Torquetum? They are class features but they are also items, and that might be a bit complicated. Perhaps upgrade the Torquetum into an Armillary sphere.


Spyglass master (Su): At 13th level, you have gained even more facility with your spyglass. Whenever you use your Spyglass Journeyman ability, you may gain the benefit of the scrying spell instead.

Cool


Greater orrey (Ex): When you achieve 16th level, your orrey grows in complexity and accuracy. When you use your Orrey ability, you may instead ignore up to 2 required Conjunctions.

Spyglass grandmaster (Ex): Upon reaching 17th level, you have achieved the pinnacle of your spyglass craft, and can use a spyglass . You can craft a spyglass in 1 hour, and whenever you look through normally through a spyglass you created (i.e., when you are not using your Spyglass Journeyman or Spyglass Master abilities), you gain the benefit of the true seeing spell.

So you can create spyglasses in an hour and then you can use them to cast scrying a number of times per day equal to your Int modifier multiplied by the number of spyglasses that you have. And they are pretty cheap at this level too. This is pretty great for divination (but I doubt this is what you were looking for).


Planisphere (Ex): A planisphere, which you learn to use at 18th level, is a device which combines the simplicity of a Star Chart with the versatility of an Astrolabe. When using a planisphere to construct your Star Chart, you are a model of efficiency, granting you the ability to focus on four Constellations per day. This ability functions identically to the Torquetum ability, but with four Constellations instead of two.

Again I would upgrade the armillary sphere.


Cosmos unbound (Su): You reach the pinnacle of your observational abilities at 20th level. You may observe a phenomenon at any distance, or across planar boundaries, if you have sufficient information to aim with. You can automatically target any square you can see, including squares you observe via scrying effects. If you cannot see your target but it is on the same plane, you must know its location relative to you (direction and distance) down to the exact 5-foot square.

To observe a phenomenon on a different plane, you must succeed at a DC 30 Knowledge (the Planes) check requiring study time (as shown in the table below) to determine the active Conjunctions at your target location. You may then make Knowledge (the Planes) checks in place of Spot checks to alter the Conjunctions, with a DC 10 higher than the normal Spot check DC. Each added or exchanged Conjunction requires one further hour of study. Additionally, each phenomenon observed on a different plane requires the [Center] Conjunction, which determines the point of origin of the phenomenon on that plane. The location of the point of origin is determined as per the plane shift spell. Once the [Center] location has been established, you treat the target as being on the same plane as you, that you cannot see.

{table=head]Plane|Study time
Material|1 day
Transitive Plane|1d4 days
Inner Plane|1d8 days
Outer Plane|2d6 days
The Far Realm|1d% days
[/table]

This is the first time that knowledge (the planes) appears in the class, it is cool though.

So basically this allows you to use the conjunctions in another plane, instead of where you are. I was under the assumption that conjunctions changed everyday; I hope they don't anymore since the check takes more than a day. I checked again and the conjuctions reset at the end of every encounter. So why would anyone use this capstone?

Overall it seems really attractive and surely has potential, I don't really get the capstone, I believe that some astrolabe techniques are a tad powerful, and the wording of some "item" dependent class features could be changed to clarify that you cannot use them more than the limited number of times per day if you have several items.

sirpercival
2013-02-05, 02:26 PM
Thanks for the read-through!

I'm not sure how to make this clear, but other than the spyglasses which you actually have to use, the "items" in the other class feature only exist in fluff-space. That's why there are no crafting rules or effects for them. The ability allows you to do exactly what it says you can do; having multiples of {item} doesn't benefit you in the slightest.

Also, the abilities which let you use the spyglass for divination don't function per spyglass, it's based solely on you.

And the thing about cheap spyglasses is... there is absolutely no reason for spyglasses to be so prohibitively expensive. Their benefit is rather minor compared to the price, so it doesn't bother me to have 100gp spyglasses running around. Most commoners won't be able to buy them anyway, and you can't break the bank by selling them for more than they cost you to make.

For Sextant Mastery, the DC is already based on the number of other Conjunctions; this just increases it by 3 for that particular check.

More responses: Yes the class is SAD... is it problematically so? It has poor BAB... I can drop the hit die to d4, if that helps with the hit points thing. Also, I'll write a little clarification for the 3 basic conjunctions.

thethird
2013-02-05, 02:44 PM
Yeah I don't have a problem with cheap spyglasses either.

The "items" on fluff space are cool too (although for the ones tat are improvement of previous class features I would actually replace them).

The SADness of the class is probably good as it is, the most broken stuff can probably be done via feats (faerie mysteries initiate) or are based on skill checks (such are lucid dreaming) that are broken on the first place.

Once the conjunctions and phenomens are up I will check those and give some more comments.

Morph Bark
2013-02-05, 03:00 PM
...oh come on. My first serious entry in a competition for years and Morph's coming out of retirement? What a welcome party. :smallyuk:

I admit, I had a chuckle. :smallbiggrin: I'll take it as a compliment. I'm even nigh-tempted to sig it, which I rarely do.


Too bad you weren't here for the space-themed contest. That would have fit perfectly. Still fits, though.

I'll nap after class, I said. I'll just stay up so I can continue studying, I said. MY EYES ARE DRY.

I keep telling you, Temotei, you should sleep more on the right times! You worry me sometimes.


At any rate, I'll be going with a very modest concept for this challenge. Extremely modest even. Extremely modest, and evocative of terrible, terrible things.

And, occassionally, great ones.

The Teacher.

Because hey, that's science too. :smallwink:

Temotei
2013-02-05, 05:21 PM
I keep telling you, Temotei, you should sleep more on the right times! You worry me sometimes.

Sometimes the left times are the ones for me. I feel like a split personality. Left, right, fight the wight, up, down, do what's truly right. Sleep just doesn't fit into the rules; rest is the only thing for me--and my mules. :smallsigh:

Hope you enjoyed this short rap, because if you didn't, I'll take an extra kneecap.


The Teacher.

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

FireInTheSky
2013-02-05, 07:10 PM
Re: Astronomer -

For the Star Chart levels, what about "Minor, Major, Nebula, Galaxy"?

sirpercival
2013-02-05, 07:13 PM
Re: Astronomer -

For the Star Chart levels, what about "Minor, Major, Nebula, Galaxy"?

I like the way you think, though perhaps I will instead use Planet -> Star -> Cluster -> Galaxy.

sengmeng
2013-02-05, 07:43 PM
Gluttonous Adept is up. I know that we didn't end up doing food as the theme, but it is tentatively tied to science (in the sense that he eats foes to gain knowledge, sort of a gastrointestinal experiment). Also, I just had such a fun time with his fluff I had to do it.

sengmeng
2013-02-07, 11:18 AM
Gluttonous Adept is up. I know that we didn't end up doing food as the theme, but it is tentatively tied to science (in the sense that he eats foes to gain knowledge, sort of a gastrointestinal experiment). Also, I just had such a fun time with his fluff I had to do it.

Bump. I'd appreciate any PEACHes, and I wonder if Temotei is okay with this borderline breaking of the theme?

FireInTheSky
2013-02-07, 11:09 PM
Astronomer

...

Observe phenomena (Su): ...

You begin play knowing 2 phenomena from the list below, and learn more as shown on the table above. In the beginning, the only Conjunction automatically active is a single Superior Conjunction ([Day], [Night], or [Sheltered]), which cannot be changed except by certain specific phenomena. The [Day] Conjunction is active during the day, the [Night] Conjunction is active at night, and the [Sheltered] Conjunction is active underground or indoors, where day and night are unclear.

You can add a new Inferior Conjunction or change an existing Inferior Conjunction by making a Spot check (DC 10 + twice the number of already-active Inferior Conjunctions) through a spyglass as a move action. Conjunctions reset at the beginning and end of each encounter, and you can have a maximum number of Inferior Conjunctions active at any given time equal to half your class level (rounded down, minimum 1) active at any given time; if a Constellation or Phenomenon would increase the number of active Inferior Conjunctions past this limit, you choose which Inferior Conjunctions to deactivate.


Redundant phrases are bolded.



Star chart (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, you learn to make a Star Chart, which is a method of focusing on particular Constellations, stellar patterns in the sky. Once per day, you can study your Star Chart for 1 hour to focus on any Constellation (see Constellations, below). The Constellation you choose grants you the Planet benefit (as described in the particular Constellation description), and also grants you a set of Inferior Conjunctions at the beginning of each encounter. At 8th, 14th, and 20th level, you unlock a new tier of Constellation benefits and Inferior Conjunctions.

After 24 hours, without any intervention on your part, the heavens turn, and you automatically focus on the next Constellation in the progression, granting you the benefits and Inferior Conjunctions of that Constellation as normal. You can focus on a different Constellation after 8 hours of rest, by studying your Star Chart for another hour.


So, for clarity, when you focus on a particular constellation, the level appropriate Inferior Conjunctions for that constellation are auto-activated at the beginning and end of each encounter, and all other ICs are deactivated?

sirpercival
2013-02-07, 11:12 PM
Redundant phrases are bolded. Why thank ye! Fixed.


So, for clarity, when you focus on a particular constellation, the level appropriate Inferior Conjunctions for that constellation are auto-activated at the beginning and end of each encounter, and all other ICs are deactivated? Corrrrrrrrrect.

I'm going to be changing the format for phenomena slightly, just as a warning.

Fortuna
2013-02-07, 11:13 PM
...gods dammit I forgot all about this. And now all the cool stuff has fallen out of my head.

Oh well. Guess I'd better get back into the swing of things. Rather than write more Insights, I'm going to make a start on fleshing out the rest of the class and clarifying Understandings.

Fortuna
2013-02-08, 02:39 AM
If anyone would look over what I have thus far, and give me what critique they can offer, I'd be glad to reciprocate.

Temotei
2013-02-08, 07:59 PM
If anyone would look over what I have thus far, and give me what critique they can offer, I'd be glad to reciprocate.

Since you said you'd critique the flamewaker, I figured I'd remind you of that by critiquing the savant. :smalltongue:


*Fluff*

Looks good. Show that arrogance in a quote and it'll be even better.


GAME RULE INFORMATION
Savants have the following game statistics.
Abilities: The savant depends first and foremost upon Strength or Dexterity or even both, depending on his choice of combat style. Intelligence is a close second or third because of how it modifies insights. Finally, Constitution is as ever important for hit points, and Wisdom and Charisma can provide welcome bonuses to savants wishing to focus on the corresponding skills.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8
Starting Age: As barbarian.
Starting Gold: As fighter.

Seems fine.


Class Skills
The Savant's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are...

Skill Points at First Level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

After reading through the class, I think they should have the following: Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), and Spot (Wis).

Also consider Speak Language (None).

You could also lower the skill points per level to 4 + Int modifier since they're so Intelligence-focused if you don't plan on having a bunch of class skills.

Alternatively, just give them all class skills like the factotum.


Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Savants are proficient in the use of all simple and martial weapons. They are proficient with light armour, but not shields.

Looks fine.


All other class features go here (Use the format shown directly below if you don't know what to do.)!

Remove this. :smallwink:


Clarity (Ex): A Savant's mind does not work quite like most peoples'. As a free action, a savant can enter a state of heightened clarity. While in this state he gains a +6 insight bonus to Spot and Listen. He may also choose one of the three Principles - Precision, Speed, and Defence (see below). He gains that Principle's benefit as long as the state of clarity lasts. He may dismiss the clarity as a free action, and cannot sustain it longer than his level divided by two, round up. If he falls unconscious then the clarity immediately ends. Once the clarity subsides, he cannot reclaim it for a full minute.

The duration is in rounds, correct? State that. Also, do you choose a principle once and forever use that principle, or do you choose it upon every use of clarity?

Speed's benefit should be looked at, for sure. I'm assuming the additional attack roll is made at a -5 penalty like iterative attacks? It's not stated. Second, it says if you hit with the "lower" attack, you deal damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the original target. This implies that it's two separate attacks, not simply two attack rolls. Also, if so, does the lower attack actually deal damage aside from your Str or Dex modifier? Lastly, does the higher attack deal any damage?

Defence (it pains me to spell it this way): Does the attack happen directly after the opponent's attack? If so, just make it a no-action deal, because free actions can only be taken on a creature's own turn.


Weapon Familiarity (Ex): Training in a specific weapon seems pointless when one can simply find the correct techniques on a whim. When entering a state of clarity, any feats that the Savant may have which apply only to a chosen class of weapon apply to whatever weapons he may use (including unarmed strikes and grapples), so long as they are valid choices for that feat. For example, a second level savant has the feat Weapon Focus (longswords). While he is in a state of clarity, all of his attacks with any weapon, or even with unarmed strikes or grapples, gain +1 to attack. If he had both Weapon Focus (longswords) and Weapon Focus (longbows), he would gain the benefit only once, because Weapon Focus cannot stack with itself.

This looks good.


Focus (Ex): A savant can heighten their mind to impossible powers of deduction in a state of clarity, but they can also enter a lesser state, known as focus. This state may be entered as a full-round action, and lasts only long enough for the savant to attempt a single skill check (chosen when the state is entered) or apply an Understanding. If focus is used for a skill check, the savant counts as trained even if he is not, and may take ten regardless of circumstances. This state is taxing, and the savant is fatigued for five minutes at its conclusion - if he was already fatigued, he cannot achieve focus. While focusing, he takes a penalty to all checks other than the skill check or those required by the Understanding which he is applying equal to his class level, and is automatically flat-footed. Any attacks or non-opposed skill checks made against him during this period gain a bonus equal to his class level.

You'd think the savant would get better at avoiding danger while focusing with experience, rather than the other way around. Perhaps make it so the bonus for checks against him is a flat +4 or something? Although, Heal and helpful Use Magic Device checks would gain a bonus on him, as would the epic DC 80 use of Sleight of Hand, so that's nice.


Insights (Ex): As the Savant sees the world about him and comes to understand it, he begins to learn the nuances of the Principles. He learns Insights as indicated on the table. He may only learn a Insight if he has first learned all of its prerequisites. At the start of each of his turns while under the effect of Clarity, he brings one of his Insights into effect. He must already have all of the prerequisites in effect, as well as the benefit of that Insight's root Principle.

Do you automatically learn all insights you qualify for? It seems like that's not what you intended, given that some insights have previous ones as prerequisites (and that's it).

Does activating Studied Efficiency (Precision) take an action? It seems not. That's fine. This is mostly for clarification.

Can Subduing Technique (Precision) be used with sneak attack for extra nonlethal damage with a lethal weapon?

Vicious Blow (Precision) is going to be quickly outscaled by creatures' Fortitude saves if it's just modified by Int modifier. Adding a 1/2 class levels part would make it scale better for that, if you want it to.

Maybe rename Crippling Strike (Precision) to Crippling Blow because Crippling Strike is an existing feat? Your choice, but it would clear up confusion over that if anyone had any. It's also kind of weird that compared to Vicious Blow/Vicious Stance, despite it being a higher-level insight, even if the opponent is just sickened, Vicious Blow still applies a -2 penalty on a bunch of things that probably outweigh the Strength damage (3.5 average, which is about -2). The main difference is the duration, which sort of makes up for it, but at the same time, the penalty on saving throws might still beat out the damage because of helping out the spellcasters. Crippling Strike is also stuck being a full-round action.

Can you combine Knockout Blow (Precision) and Studied Efficiency (Precision)? What about those two and Subduing Technique (Precision) all together (amounting to 2d6 extra damage, made into lethal and nonlethal because of Knockout Blow along with a +1 on the attack)?

Does Rebound Strike (Speed) work with Speed's inherent benefit?


Understandings: Often, a savant can achieve insights and feats that seem impossible without even knowing how he does it himself. These abilities, known as Understandings, are freely available to all savants of sufficient level. In order to apply an Understanding, the savant must use his Focus ability and forgo the skill-related benefit in favour of the Understanding. Once the savant commits to an Understanding he may not take any other actions until it is activated without ruining the Understanding and spoiling his ability to focus for five rounds, during which time he suffers penalties as though still focusing on the Understanding. The savant is limited in his Understandings as shown on the table. Unless otherwise noted, Understandings are Extraordinary abilities.

Does Find Weakness work against all objects up to Medium size regardless of weight? Shatter has a weight limit, which is why I ask. If the weight limit exists, make sure to mention that your class levels count as caster levels for the purpose of that attack.

Is there any limit on how many rounds the savant can concentrate for Sense Disturbance?

Does the one-week study period in Study Foe assume the savant has nothing to go on in the first place? Does the +2 bonus stack with favored enemy if the savant is multiclassed into ranger?


Greater Focus (Ex): When a savant focuses on a skill check, they gain the bonus indicated on the table.

A'ight.


Dual Principle (Ex): While Clarity holds his mind, the Savant is able to see not merely the aspects of combat, but their interactions. When entering a state of Clarity, he may select two Principles instead of one, and gains the benefits of both while the Clarity lasts.

This clears up the issue about choosing one principle permanently or choosing one every time you enter clarity, though you'll still want to clean up clarity's wording. This allows insights to be used from both principles, correct? If that's the case, Rebound Strike (Speed) combined with Knockout Blow, Subduing Technique, and Studied Efficiency (all Precision) will do much more than intended, it seems, applying sneak attack to multiple enemies while also doing bonus nonlethal damage, assuming all of them can be used together.

Can you combine Defence's benefit with Rebound Strike (Speed), since it's an attack action (free action instead of no required action), after all?


Synthesis (Ex): Unlocking his potential, the Savant grasps for the first time the whole of his philosophy, rather than aspects of it. When entering a state of Clarity he gains the benefits of all three Principles.

Whoo.


True Focus (Ex): When focusing on a skill check, the savant may forgo the bonus to the check which he is entitled to have and instead replace his dice roll with a 30.

That's nice, though for a capstone, it's kind of okay. In the end, it's a +22 bonus if you were going to take 10 anyway, which is big, but it's a capstone...

Maybe add another capstone? Something that really adds to the class's flavor rather than just making the savant better at something they were already good at.

Really, the biggest issue with the class right now is finding interactions among insights and making sure they don't get out of hand. Work on those and you'll be fine.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: I realized that my critique takes up a lot of space, so it's in spoilers now.

Fortuna
2013-02-08, 09:18 PM
Since you said you'd critique the flamewaker, I figured I'd remind you of that by critiquing the savant. :smalltongue:

Fair play. I'll get to that after I make a few clarifying edits. Further comments are bolded in my quote, because otherwise this would take up allthespace.




Looks good. Show that arrogance in a quote and it'll be even better.

Casting around for one.

Seems fine.



After reading through the class, I think they should have the following: Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), and Spot (Wis).

Also consider Speak Language (None).

You could also lower the skill points per level to 4 + Int modifier since they're so Intelligence-focused if you don't plan on having a bunch of class skills.

Skills remain something I'd like to think about, but I'll take your suggestions into consideration.

Alternatively, just give them all class skills like the factotum.

I don't want to do this, though Focus and its improvements are sort of a second place in that respect.

Looks fine.



Remove this. :smallwink:

Woops. :smallredface:

The duration is in rounds, correct? State that. Also, do you choose a principle once and forever use that principle, or do you choose it upon every use of clarity?

Thanks, I'll clarify that.

Speed's benefit should be looked at, for sure. I'm assuming the additional attack roll is made at a -5 penalty like iterative attacks? It's not stated. Second, it says if you hit with the "lower" attack, you deal damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the original target. This implies that it's two separate attacks, not simply two attack rolls. Also, if so, does the lower attack actually deal damage aside from your Str or Dex modifier? Lastly, does the higher attack deal any damage?

Ugh. I'll need to clean up the wording on this... the intent was similar to Shadow Blade Technique from Tome of Battle.

Defence (it pains me to spell it this way): Does the attack happen directly after the opponent's attack? If so, just make it a no-action deal, because free actions can only be taken on a creature's own turn.

It does. I've been playing 4e for too long.
And it's not my fault you crazy Americans spell it wrong.

This looks good.



You'd think the savant would get better at avoiding danger while focusing with experience, rather than the other way around. Perhaps make it so the bonus for checks against him is a flat +4 or something? Although, Heal and helpful Use Magic Device checks would gain a bonus on him, as would the epic DC 80 use of Sleight of Hand, so that's nice.

The intent was that at higher levels he becomes more intensely focused... but since that's not represented until Greater Focus, I'll include the scaling in that class feature.

Do you automatically learn all insights you qualify for? It seems like that's not what you intended, given that some insights have previous ones as prerequisites (and that's it).

No, you do not - I'm working on an Insights Known table, but it's nowhere near ready.

Does activating Studied Efficiency (Precision) take an action? It seems not. That's fine. This is mostly for clarification.

It does not, though it does take an action to reassign. I'll clarify.

Can Subduing Technique (Precision) be used with sneak attack for extra nonlethal damage with a lethal weapon?

Yes, it can - once again, I'll clarify.

Vicious Blow (Precision) is going to be quickly outscaled by creatures' Fortitude saves if it's just modified by Int modifier. Adding a 1/2 class levels part would make it scale better for that, if you want it to.

Good point. I'll consider, but I'll probably add in 1/2 level.

Maybe rename Crippling Strike (Precision) to Crippling Blow because Crippling Strike is an existing feat? Your choice, but it would clear up confusion over that if anyone had any. It's also kind of weird that compared to Vicious Blow/Vicious Stance, despite it being a higher-level insight, even if the opponent is just sickened, Vicious Blow still applies a -2 penalty on a bunch of things that probably outweigh the Strength damage (3.5 average, which is about -2). The main difference is the duration, which sort of makes up for it, but at the same time, the penalty on saving throws might still beat out the damage because of helping out the spellcasters. Crippling Strike is also stuck being a full-round action.

Rename will be done. And note that Crippling Blow/Strike can stack with itself indefinitely, while Vicious Blow/Stance are limited to one-off effects. I will probably include a higher-level Insight to reduce the action of Crippling Strike, but wanted to consider how high-level it should be.

Can you combine Knockout Blow (Precision) and Studied Efficiency (Precision)? What about those two and Subduing Technique (Precision) all together (amounting to 2d6 extra damage, made into lethal and nonlethal because of Knockout Blow along with a +1 on the attack)?

Knockout Blow and Studied Efficiency combine just fine. Subduing Technique should not allow you to make all of the damage one or the other - I will clarify that.

Does Rebound Strike (Speed) work with Speed's inherent benefit?

There's no reason why not.

Does Find Weakness work against all objects up to Medium size regardless of weight? Shatter has a weight limit, which is why I ask. If the weight limit exists, make sure to mention that your class levels count as caster levels for the purpose of that attack.

All Medium objects. Anything that the PCs get their hands on for half an hour could probably have been smashed up already. :smallwink:

Is there any limit on how many rounds the savant can concentrate for Sense Disturbance?

No limit.

Does the one-week study period in Study Foe assume the savant has nothing to go on in the first place? Does the +2 bonus stack with favored enemy if the savant is multiclassed into ranger?

Woops. The one week study period is a legacy from when I allowed no material as an option, but on reflection I decided it was silly and mostly removed it. The bonus should stack - I'll clarify.

A'ight.



This clears up the issue about choosing one principle permanently or choosing one every time you enter clarity, though you'll still want to clean up clarity's wording. This allows insights to be used from both principles, correct? If that's the case, Rebound Strike (Speed) combined with Knockout Blow, Subduing Technique, and Studied Efficiency (all Precision) will do much more than intended, it seems, applying sneak attack to multiple enemies while also doing bonus nonlethal damage, assuming all of them can be used together.

It does allow combining Insights from multiple principles. The issues with Rebound Strike can be cleared up by making it a volley-style attack to which Sneak Attack applies only once - I'll fix that up.

Can you combine Defence's benefit with Rebound Strike (Speed), since it's an attack action (free action instead of no required action), after all?

Hmm. You shouldn't be able to, but it's possible that with the present wording you can. I'll see if I can work out a way to clarify.

Whoo.



That's nice, though for a capstone, it's kind of okay. In the end, it's a +22 bonus if you were going to take 10 anyway, which is big, but it's a capstone...

Maybe add another capstone? Something that really adds to the class's flavor rather than just making the savant better at something they were already good at.

I intend to.

Really, the biggest issue with the class right now is finding interactions among insights and making sure they don't get out of hand. Work on those and you'll be fine.

Thanks. Yeah, that was always going to be the biggest challenge.

Hope this helps.

Sure did!

Temotei
2013-02-08, 10:14 PM
Knockout Blow and Studied Efficiency combine just fine. Subduing Technique should not allow you to make all of the damage one or the other - I will clarify that.

Nah, see, Subduing Technique makes all of the damage nonlethal with a bonus 1d6 damage, but then Knockout Blow makes it so you roll twice for lethal and nonlethal, making all of the nonlethal also do lethal.

That's what I meant. It's fixed now, though.

malonkey1
2013-02-09, 11:47 AM
APERTURER

It see0



I look forward to seeing it come to fruition and will gladly PEACH upon completion. And there will be cake.


0ms like an interesting concept.

Morph Bark
2013-02-09, 11:58 AM
0what you did there. I see0

/isityodaorisitportals

malonkey1
2013-02-09, 10:26 PM
I have the descriptions for the gadgets up. If there's somebody willing to PEACH it, I'd be happy to PEACH in return.

Felyndiira
2013-02-10, 10:47 PM
I'm determined to actually finish my entry this time. 'Siren' was a bit too ambitious of a project during the army combat competition, and 'Weaver of Life' is only a little less so, but his phenotype list should be relatively short for each entry.

At least, I hope I can finish it this time. The legal-like terminology required, I think, is really much harder than writing the actual class.

*prays for motivation* :smalltongue:

Ra_Va
2013-02-10, 11:19 PM
New to making classes for the most part but I like where this is headed so far. Kinda ambitious with the whole 'stealing other races abilities' thing but hey SCIENCE! However I have a question.




Zarus' Snare: Creates a magic booby trap that has a Challenge Rating is 3 less than his character level or lower. He can also choose to double the number of traps by reducing the max CR of the traps by 2 per doubling (a 9th level Saint could create one CR 6 trap, two CR 4 traps, 4 CR 2 traps, or 8 CR 1 traps). +2 Damage if a non-human activates it.



I was wondering if there was a better way to do the Challenge Rating or if this is fine. Its decent and relatively simple to remember and use, and gives everyone a chance to actually find the trap but outside of epic levels... lets everyone find the trap. If its fine I'll let it go just popped into my head that rouges are the only class that can find a trap past CR 20, I believe it is, a CR only reached through epic levels by the current ability description.

If you have any other advice or critiques I would also be glad to see those.

malonkey1
2013-02-11, 09:46 AM
Perhaps the scaling changes as you level up?

At first, the maximum is Lvl-3.
Later, it could become Lvl-1
Finally, it could increase to LVL+1. That way, at lower levels, everybody has a chance to find it, but higher-level traps will need specialization.

Temotei
2013-02-11, 02:33 PM
Bump. I'd appreciate any PEACHes, and I wonder if Temotei is okay with this borderline breaking of the theme?

I'll take a look at it in a few hours. I've got a class today.

sengmeng
2013-02-11, 04:59 PM
I'll take a look at it in a few hours. I've got a class today.

Excellent. I should have the Gluttonous Adept spells and feats up by then.

Temotei
2013-02-12, 01:09 AM
I like the gluttonous adept. After reading through it, it looks pretty funny and silly.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I'm feeling the science behind it. They cast spells and eat things. Maybe the rest of the class will become more science-y, but so far, I'm not seeing it.

Still, focusing a bit more on the biological aspects of the class could make it fit better. Perhaps try for that.

sengmeng
2013-02-12, 09:33 AM
I like the gluttonous adept. After reading through it, it looks pretty funny and silly.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I'm feeling the science behind it. They cast spells and eat things. Maybe the rest of the class will become more science-y, but so far, I'm not seeing it.

Still, focusing a bit more on the biological aspects of the class could make it fit better. Perhaps try for that.

I have to agree with both the good and the bad I'm afraid. On the one hand, their casting is equivalent to a wizard's, so more science-y class features would be a bit too powerful I think. That leaves fluff and feats to make them fit the theme better. Anyone have suggestions? I'm thinking of a "control metabolism" line of feats or something like that.

Temotei
2013-02-12, 01:35 PM
I have to agree with both the good and the bad I'm afraid. On the one hand, their casting is equivalent to a wizard's, so more science-y class features would be a bit too powerful I think. That leaves fluff and feats to make them fit the theme better. Anyone have suggestions? I'm thinking of a "control metabolism" line of feats or something like that.

Or you could change the spells to function differently in a more science-like way. I'm not sure how you'd do that right now, though.

malonkey1
2013-02-12, 08:58 PM
I like the GA too. Perhaps change it to a "genetic adept", change the fluff to make it some sort of arcane geneticist? It may change some of the mechanics a bit (or not, depends how realistic you want it to be...), but it'd be a pretty simple way to change it to fit the theme purely by re-fluff.


BTW: I can haz PEACH plz? I'll PEACH back!

Fortuna
2013-02-13, 03:04 AM
I'm not sure how to feel about the abilities I'm giving out as fundamental Understandings. On the one hand, casters can do much the same thing. On the other, it's some really strong stuff. Including things like "Answer a question. Go on, any question, really."

Fortuna
2013-02-13, 05:18 AM
BTW: I can haz PEACH plz? I'll PEACH back!

Don't ask much, do you? :smalltongue: Alright, here goes.



Arcane Engineer

“Yeah, clever little widget, that Mythallar, but I think it could use a touchscreen. Maybe some rockets. Oh! Oh! Or how about lasers!!”

Arcane Engineers are people who use the magical energies around them to power various magical machines, as opposed to simply casting spells. These machines can have a variety of effects, but an Arcane Engineer can only have so many of them at a time.

Adventures: The Arcane Engineer adventures for one reason above all others: To use awesome gadgets. They love to show off their latest gizmo at the first chance, and can often be found confounding dragons or confusing displacer beasts with laser pointers.

Characteristics: Arcane Engineers love to invent and discover. Whatever they use them for, their gadgets are their favorite thing. Some have been known to wax lyrical about the specifications of their devices. If you have two of them meet, be prepared to drown in technical jargon. The Arcane Engineer is quite possibly the only class that can out-jargon Wizards.

Alignment: The rigorous work required to develop the machinery of an Arcane Engineer, as well as hone the magical powers that fuel them, often make this class well-suited to lawful characters. That doesn't prevent other alignments from learning the secrets of this class.

Religion: They tend not to worry about deities so much, but those that do tend to follow gods of magic, science or study.

Background/Race: Arcane Engineers can come from nearly any intelligent race with a mechanical bent, but Gnomes, Humans, and Elves produce the largest number of them. Kobolds, with their knack for trapmaking, can be surprisingly skillful Arcane Engineers.

Other Classes: They usually get along well with Wizards, but there can be friction in the area of theory vs. practice. Martial classes such as fighters tend to find an Arcane Engineer's practicality refreshing. Divine and Natural casters tend to be pretty ambivalent, depending on their personal views.

Role: Depending on your choice of Gadgets and Devices, you can fill numerous roles. The one role that is largely out of your reach is that of the healer, although you do receive some limited healing ability.

Adaptation: The Arcane Engineer is pretty setting-ready as it is, especially in relatively advanced settings such as Eberron.

Pah. Engineers aren't scientists. :smalltongue:
More seriously, seems fine so far. Puts me in mind of the Artificer.


GAME RULE INFORMATION
Arcane Engineers have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Intelligence is a big stat, as it affects your Gadgets and your Devices, as well as their potency. Dexterity and Constitution are important for survival in combat.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d6
Starting Age: As Wizard
Starting Gold: As Wizard

Sure.


Class Skills
The Arcane Engineer's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Int), Knowledge[Any] (Int), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Use Magic Device (Cha)

Skill Points at First Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Sure.


ARCANE ENGINEER
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Engineering Points

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Bonus Feay, Gadgetry, Devices (5)|6

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3||8

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|Craft Focus|10

4th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Bonus Feat|12

5th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Devices (10)|15

6th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+5|Item Creation|18

7th|
+5|
+2|
+2|
+5|Bonus Feat|21

8th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+2|
+6||24

9th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+3|
+6|Rapid Building|28

10th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+3|
+7|Bonus Feat, Devices (15)|32

11th|
+8/+3|
+3|
+3|
+7|Craft Focus|36

12th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+4|
+8||40

13th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+4|
+8|Bonus Feat|45

14th|
+10/+5|
+4|
+4|
+9||50

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+9|Devices (20)|55

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+10|Bonus Feat|60

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+10||66

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+11||72

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11|Craft Focus, Bonus Feat|78

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+12|Devices (25)|84[/table]

Mmm. Okay.


Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Arcane Engineer:

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Arcane Engineers are proficient with simple weapons, and light armor, as well as any weapon-like or armor-like gadgets or devices they can build.

Alright, that's an interesting clause. I presume that all will become clear.


Bonus Feats: At levels 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, and 19, you may choose any of the following as bonus feats: Item Creation Feats, Meta-Supernatural Ability Feats, or the Extra Engineering Points Feat (see below).

Mmmkay. Lots of feats.


Exotic Arcana: The magic wielded by the Arcane Engineer is unusual indeed. You qualify for (and gain any applicable benefits from) any prestige classes which require any of the following:

Caster Level without a specific requirement for arcane or divine spellcasting. Any class that advances spellcasting advances Engineering Points and Builder Level instead.
Ability to cast a specific spell that can be replicated by a Gadget you are capable of building. If a class feature requires use of that spell, it instead uses up a use of that spell from the equivalent Gadget.

Additionally, any feat which requires caster level as a prerequisite is also satisfied by Builder Level.

Typo bolded. I think, based on the fluff of the class, it would make more sense to qualify only for arcane spellcasting classes. Apart from that, seems fine.


Gadgetry (Su or Ex): You can create gadgets to aid you. These Gadgets have no level, but in order to make one, you must spend Engineering points equal to its cost. All of these gadgets have a hardness of 10 + 1/2 your class level and HP equal to its EP cost. You can spend extra gadget engineering points to gain an insight bonus equal to extra points spent on all rolls with that gadget, up to 1/2 your class level, or to gain specific extra effects. This also increases bonuses provided by the gadget in question. Unless specifically stated, the gadget's abilities are supernatural abilities. So long as you have a functioning gadget, your Engineering Point reserve is reduced by the cost of making the gadget. Saving throw DCs for abilities granted by Gadgets are 10 + 1/4 point cost + Intelligence Bonus. Inspiration Points from the Factotum class can be used as Engineering Points, but not vice-versa. Factotums must still have levels in this class to use this ability. You can voluntarily destroy gadgets, “cannibalizing” them for points. To build these machines, you must spend 1 minute per point cost for each machine, and provokes attacks of opportunity. Taking damage while building a Gadget requires a Concentration check (DC 10 + 1/2 EP cost). If you fail this check, your Gadget is ruined and you must start over. If your Engineering Point reserve falls below the number required to have your active devices, you must reduce Engineering points spent for bonuses, and if that does not bring your EP reserve back up to at least 0, your Gadgets lose effectiveness, starting with your most expensive gadget, and working down to your weakest gadgets. Gadgets can be used by others, so long as they remain within 60 feet of you. You need not have a line of effect. Gadgets do not interfere with armor or spellcasting (Except in the case of gadgets built into armor, which affect spellcasting as their non-gadget equivalent, if a type of armor is mentioned). Gadgets with supernatural abilities are nullified under the same circumstances that other magic items would be, such as if dispelled or a soulmeld is bound to their body slot(s). You may use Meta-Supernatural feats in conjunction with any of your own gadgets.

Typo bolded. Building these things is so impractical in combat that I don't think you need to specify about attacks of opportunity and taking damage - rather, simply state that the process requires relative calm. The rest seems fine.


Devices (Su or Ex): You can hobble together an improvised gadget that lasts for a number of rounds equal to your class level + your Intelligence Bonus (if any). These do not use points from your normal Engineering Points, but instead use “virtual EP” as given on the table above. These points are not replenished until you have rested for 8 hours, as opposed to Engineering Points. This is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. They otherwise follow the same rules as Gadgets.

Seems fine.


Craft Focus (Ex): At levels 3, 11, & 19 you receive a +2 competence bonus on a specific type of Craft check. This stacks with Skill Focus, but you may not choose the same Craft skill more than once with this class feature. As you gain a new Craft Focus, the bonuses from existing ones each increase by +2.

This is so small as to be almost insulting. I would just give the bonus to all craft checks - it's not like craft checks matter to anyone.


Item Creation (Su): You can craft magic items without possessing the spell required, provided you have the necessary crafting feat. You can choose to either substitute a spell with a Use Magic Device Check (DC 30 + spell level), or use Engineering points equal to 2 + twice the spell's level. If you choose the latter, any magical properties pertaining to the replaced spell become inactive if the item leaves your possession. If all of the effects on the item depend wholly or partially on that spell, the item becomes completely inert and non-magical upon leaving your possession. You can mix and match spell replacement methods as you please. If you use EP to build the item, then you lose those points until the item is destroyed or out of charges.

Hmmm. Hmmmmmm. I'm... not at all sure what to think about this one. I can't give you anything constructive, but it seems off.


Rapid Building (Ex): At level 9, you gain the ability to rush the building of a machine, increasing the Engineering point cost by 1/2 to build it as a full-round action.

This strikes me as something that could get ugly fast, depending on the gadget effects. I'll bear it in mind when looking at those.


New Feats:
Extra Engineering Points:
Prerequisites: Gadgetry Class Feature
Benefits: You gain extra EP equal to your HD. If you gain additional Hit Dice, your Engineering Points improve with them. You also receive an equal bonus to your virtual EP for the Device class feature.

...this feat damn near doubles your Device pool once you get to mid levels. I would split this up into a feat to boost the Device pool and a feat to boost the EP pool, and calibrate the numbers according to each one individually.


Azure Engineering [Incarnum]:
Prerequisites: Gadgetry Class Feature, Con 13
Benefits: Once per day, you can invest Essentia into this feat. You gain bonus Engineering Points equal to the invested Essentia. Once you invested Essentia in this feat, you cannot change it for 24 hours.
You gain 1 Essentia.

This, on the other hand, is insultingly weak. A maximum of four extra engineering points? No, just no.


Soulbound Engineering:
Prerequisites: Gadgetry Class Feature, ability to bind a Vestige
Benefits: While you have a Vestige bound, you can forgo a power granted by the Vestige in order to gain bonus Engineering Points equal to the level of the Vestige whose power you forwent.

I can't comment on this one, not knowing vestiges.


Psychic Engineering [Psionic]:
Requires: Gadgetry Class Feature
Benefits: You can expend your Psionic Focus to increase the bonuses from a single Gadget as if you had spent an extra Engineering Point on it. You may also spend power points while you do so, increasing the bonus by the number of power points spent. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence Bonus. (Minimum 1)

Mmmm. Seems reasonable enough, I suppose.


Gadget Listing:
*snip*

...I'm gonna be here a while. :smalleek:

-snip-
Advanced Lock
Cost: 5
Type: Special (lock)
Uses: N/A
Save: None
Effect: You build a truly special lock. This lock, when attached to a door or similar object, has an open DC of 15 + builder level. The break DC of the object to which it is attached increases as the arcane lock spell, as cast by a Wizard of your builder level.
Point Effect: Using extra points increases the open DC and bonus hardness by 1.

Sure, why not.


Agile Servos
Cost: 7
Type: Boots
Uses: 1/4 BL per day
Save: None
Effect: These servers are finely tuned for agility, allowing the wearer to replicate cat's grace as cast by a Wizard of your builder level.
Point Effect: Every 3 extra points increase the effect duration by 1 minute.

I presume that you round down, as per usual, in which case this is okay - otherwise this is cat's grace at level 1 (well, 2 if you skip EEP), which seems unreasonably strong.


Animatron [Evil]
Cost: 21
Type: Headband
Uses: Single-Use
Save: None
Effect: A corpse, skeleton, or other physical remains of a small or medium humanoid fitted with this device will rise as a golem of the appropriate type (bone flesh golem for corpses, bone golem for skeletal remains) for up to 1d4 rounds per BL. After its effects wear off, the magical circuits burn out, preventing you from reusing it. You can also use it on a wooden body of an appropriate size. If you do this, this loses the [evil] descriptor.
Point Effect: Every 4 extra points used to make this imbues the created golem with and extra Hit Die.

Typo bolded. This comes online at precisely seventh level, at which point it lasts an average of 17.5 rounds - more than enough for a battle and then some. Not only that, but you can just scrap and rebuild this for every battle - basically netting you a CR 7 flesh golem every combat, which strikes me as somewhat overpowered. You should provide references for bone and wood golems, which are not listed in core.


Audio Aid [Sonic] [Extraordinary]
Cost: 1
Type: Special
Uses: Passive
Save: None
Effect: Upon placing this object in your ear canal, you receive a +1 circumstance bonus to Listen checks. You also take +1 damage from all direct-damage sonic spells.
Point Effect: For each extra point you use, the Listen bonus and extra damage taken from sonics increases by +1.

Um. Seems pretty boring, and the extra damage from sonic spells drops this from boring to desperately risky.


Auto-Doc
Cost: 7
Type: Backpack
Uses: Special
Save: None
Effect: This device, when worn on the back, can be used to quickly stitch up wounds mid-combat. You can use this device a total number of rounds equal to 1/2 your builder level, which don't need to be consecutive and can be divided as you please. While this device is active, you receive fast healing equal to 1/4 your builder level.
Point Effect: Each extra point increase the number of round this device can be used for by 1.

Healing ranging from level²/8 to 3level²/16 over a span of enough rounds to be useless in combat. Even at twentieth level this constitutes only 50 points of damage. At level 4 it's 2 or 3. At level 8 it's 8 to 12. This is pathetically weak, sorry.

-breakpoint because too many characters for one post-

Fortuna
2013-02-13, 05:20 AM
Black Light [Darkness] [Extraordinary]
Cost: 1
Type: Wand
Uses: At will.
Save: None
Effect: Activating this device is a swift action. This wand emits a 60-foot cone of UV light that provides a +1 circumstance bonus to Search checks within that cone. Additionally, any magic items with a Caster Level greater than 12 immediately begin to fluoresce within this cone. This does not allow you to identify the school of the magic item or detect lingering spell effects.
Point Effect: Each additional point increases the Search check bonus by +1. Additionally, Spending 3 extra points causes magic items with a Caster level between 6-11 to fluoresce. Spending a total of 6 points causes all magic items to fluoresce.

Why is this a [Darkness] effect? Besides that, it seems... weakish. Still, it's cheap enough to be assembled in the heat of the moment. I guess it's alright.


Blaster Gloves [Force]
Cost: 7
Type: Gloves
Uses: 3/4 Builder Level missiles/day
Save: None
Effect: These gloves, covered in magical capacitors, can fire 3 missiles per 4 Builder levels (max 15), each dealing 1d4+1 damage. Any effects that protect against magic missile protect against this ability.
Point Effect: Every 2 points allows you to fire an extra missile per day, and each point increases the total damage of any missiles you fire per day by +1. You can spread this damage across each missile as you wish.

Hmm. Can these all be fired off at once? If so, it could be useful for novas. If not, it's utterly worthless.


Blink Matrix
Cost: 9
Type: Armor
Uses: 1/4 BL/day
Save: None
Effect: This normal Chain Shirt has numerous whirring, humming devices attached. Once per day per 4 Builder Levels, you can replicate the blink spell as a Wizards of your Builder Level.
Point Effect: Each extra point increases the duration of the effect by 1 round.

Typo struck through. Seems reasonable enough, I suppose, but it calls to mind an overarching concern which I'll bring up at the end of this.


Chaos Wave Device [Chaotic]
Cost: 28
Type: Gloves
Uses: 1/4 BL/day
Save: Special
Effect: These gloves are covered in fine wires, with a small multi-colored lens over the middle knuckle. Once per day per 4 Builder Levels, you can replicate the prismatic spray spell as a Wizard of your Builder Level.
Point Effect: Each extra point used on this device increase the save DC for its effects by 1.

...urk. No. Nononono. This comes in at level 9. And it's replicating a level 7 spell. No, no, just no.


Cloaker
Cost: 10
Type: Cloak
Uses: Special; see text
Save: None
Effect: This cloak has what looks like thin gold wires threaded through its fabric. The light just seems to slide past it. While wearing this cloak, you receive 25% concealment. Once per 4 builder levels per day, you can replace this concealment with the effects of an invisibility spell as cast by a Wizard of your Builder Level.
Point Effect: Each extra point used by this gadget grants you a +1 competence bonus to Hide and Move Silently checks (cumulative).

Hmmm. Comes online at 3rd - this would be nice to give to a friendly rogue. Still, invisibility comes online at the same time. The concealment, however, is potentially worrisome for being too powerful at high levels for its cost. I'd consider splitting this up, or making it higher level.


Combat Laser [Light]
Cost: 26
Type: Weapon
Uses: Special; see text
Save: Reflex negates, Reflex half; see text
Effect: This small device looks like a wand with an angled handle and a trigger. It can be used as a ranged weapon which deals 1d6 fire damage as a ray (critical 19-20 x2). This does not wear down, but you can overcharge it, replicating the effects of a sunbeam spell as cast by a Druid of your Builder Level up to once per day per 5 Builder Levels.
Point Effect: Each extra point you spend on this device increases its attack and damage by the number of extra points used as an untyped bonus. This bonus damage also applies to its sunbeam ability.

Mmm. Comes online at ninth level... seems rather weak, given how much it costs.


Commlink [Mind-Affecting]
Cost: 17
Type: Headband
Uses: Passive
Save: None
Effect: This headband has a small gem set into the front, which shines a little more brightly when you place it on your head. Its mate is identical. This headband allows the wearer to communicate with its mate as if by the telepathic bond spell as cast by a Wizard of your level.
Point Effect: Every 3 points you spend on this item allows you to add a headband for them to use, including them in the effect. You cannot exceed the normal limit for the spell this way.

Hypothetically comes online at sixth, but being utility isn't really viable to devote most of your points to... mmmm. Ye-ess.... seems reasonable-ish.


Dart Guns [Extraordinary]
Cost: 3
Type: Bracer
Uses: Special
Save: None
Effect: These bracers have what looks like miniature crossbows attached to them. There is a small trigger attached to the wrist on each. These bracers give you two ranged natural attacks which each deal 1d4 damage (do not add ability modifiers). These attacks require you to load them with darts. You can make 5 attacks with each before reloading (a full-round action to reload both, move action to reload 1).
Point Effect: Each extra point you use on this gadget increases the number of darts it can hold by 1.

Ranged natural attacks are an unusual mechanic, and this does very little damage... but it's also something you can do at first level. Hmmm. The points need to boost the damage and possibly attack, or this becomes obsolete far too quickly.


De-Summoner
Cost: 16
Type: Wand
Uses: 1/day
Save: Will negates
Effect: This small wand is wrapped tightly in insulated wires, and has a small glass ball which crackles with energy attached to the end. You can, once per day, use this device to dismiss an outsider as per the dismissal spell, as cast by a Cleric of your Builder Level.
Point Effect: Each extra point used on this machine increases the save DC by 1.

Veeery niche. This seems like a prime target for rapid building. It does come online as early as sixth if you have proper warning, but that's barely before a cleric can prepare it. All told, I think this is probably broken - too powerful when it works, and too weak the rest of the time.


Death Trap [Death]
Cost: 33
Type: Trap
Uses: Single use
Save: Fortitude negates
Effect: You can set this trap, with is composed of various magical capacitors connected to a single, powerful circuit that resembles a skull. When it is triggered, it replicates the effects of a symbol of death as cast by a Wizard of your Builder Level.
Point Effect: Each extra point used on this gadget increases either the DCs to find and disable the trap or the save DC by 1. You can mix these bonuses as you please.

You do like those magical capacitors, don't you? Comes online at level 11, hypothetically. Seems very niche again, but if you construct it and then slap it on a wall as you flee it could be quite strong.


Debilitating Mace
Cost: 9
Type: Weapon
Uses: Special
Save: Fortitude Negates
Effect: This +1 mace discharges a small electrical jolts, causing muscle spasms. On hitting a living opponent, this weapon deals 1 point of Strength damage (Fortitude negates). Each point of Strength damage stacks. This can also be done through a touch attack, but this does not deal weapon damage.
Point Effect: Every 5 extra points increases the Strength damage dealt by this gadget.

Comes online very early - level 3, hypothetically. With EEP you could get two of them at level 5. I'm not sure what to think about this. Strength damage is strong in sufficient quantities, but this is probably not going to add up to more than 5 damage over a combat until iteratives come online - or until you start boosting it, which doesn't happen until level 10. I'd suggest making this more expensive, but also more powerful, because as it is it scales really oddly.


Decomposer
Cost: 18
Type: Rod
Uses: 5 charges/day
Save: Special; see text
Effect: You can use 1 charge on this device to: replicate transmute stone to mud, replicate transmute mud to stone, or deal 1d6 damage/Builder Level (max 6d6) to any creature or object composed of plant matter (a successful Fortitude save halves this damage).
Point Effect: For every 2 extra points you spend on this gadget, it gains 1 extra charge per day.

Stone to mud, mud to stone, sucks to be all your foes. At level 6, no less. I'd call this balanced, except... see the concern at the end.


Dialysis Machine [Extraordinary]
Cost: 12
Type: Special
Uses: At will
Save: None
Effect: This machine resembles a coffin, except that it has numerous tubes and a small, square object attached to it. This device can neutralize literally any poison. This takes a number of hours equal to the DC of the poison, during which time the subject does not need to make saves. If they do remain in the device for the full time, then their poison's effects resume.
Point Effects: For every 2 extra points used to make this device reduces the required amount of time to neutralize poisons by 1 hour, to a minimum of 10 minute.

Hmmm. That takes a looong time. Fourth level, this comes online - neutralize poison is next level. I'm inclined to call this far too weak.


Dimension Pull Unit
Cost: 28
Type: Armor
Uses: 2/week
Save: None
Effect: This normal Leather Armor is covered in odd machines and carefully arranged crystals, with a single, fist-sized piece of onyx in the center. 2 times per week, you can use this gadget to replicate the simulacrum spell as a Wizard of your Builder Level. This duplicate is pulled from another reality, and has only a tentative link to your reality, and only remains for 1 round per 2 Builder Levels.
Point Effect: Every 2 extra points used for this gadget grants an additional weekly use each.

Hmm. Curious thing. Comes online at ninth... at which point you give it to your friend (say a caster), and it becomes extraordinarily powerful, but also extraordinarily passive. Uses per week are very odd indeed, and play into my overarching concern.


Dimensional Lock
Cost: 16
Type: Ring
Uses: Passive
Save: Will negates; see text
Effect: This ring is made from carefully carved quartz, with a small, pulsing gem and a miniscule circuit board attached. It hums with energy, and begins to heat up in the presence of interplanar travel magic, such as a gate. Anyone wearing this ring is incapable of being targeted by effects originating from other planes, including conjuration (calling) spells. This does not extend to extra-planar effects being channeled through a character on the wearer's plane (e.g. vestige powers, turning, healing spells, etc.). This device also prevents the wearer from traveling between planes. In order to remove it, the wearer must succeed on a Will save (the builder can remove this device from any creature without making a save). Success means the ring is removed and permanently disabled, returning its Engineering Points to its maker (If removed by the builder, he can choose whether it is disabled upon removing it). Failure causes 1d4 electrical damage/builder level to the wearer, and they may not try again for 24 hours. This device is not subject to the 60-foot range limitation of devices, and remains functional at an infinite distance from its builder.
Point Effect: Each extra point spent on this device increases the will save DC by 1.

Seems extremely niche again. Also, there's no easy way to put this on someone you haven't already incapacitated. Really, a lot of these gadgets are far too niche on the whole.


Disruption Module
Cost: 16
Type: Special
Uses: Passive
Save: Fortitude half; see text
Effect: This small bundle of wires, transistors, and capacitors appears to be designed to be attached to the handle of a weapon. A weapon with this machine attached cracks and sparks with energy when striking undead. Any weapon with this device attached to it deals double damage to undead creatures, (this doubling stacks with multipliers for critical hits). The weapon can also be used to perform critical hits and sneak attacks against undead. Undead affected by critical hits and sneak attacks are treated as if they have 50% fortification.
Point Effect: Each extra point allows this device to replicate detect undead 1/day.

Comes online at sixth again. Once again, extremely niche - I think that's a second overarching concern that I'll discuss at the end. I'll stop mentioning it.


Dweomerlyzer
Cost: 20
Type: Rod
Uses: 3/day
Save: None
Effect: This rod has a small display on one side. When you hold it over a magic item, it beeps and whirs before giving a brief explanation of its properties. 3 times per day, you can replicate the effects of a legend lore spell.
Point Effect: For every 3 extra points, you can use this device 1 extra time per day.

Legend Lore usually comes online at level 11, whereas this can be assembled at seventh level. Since it can easily be assembled between combats, you make casters with access to legend lore sad. :smallfrown:


EM Goggles
Cost: 17
Type: Goggles
Uses: Passive
Effect: These goggles have large, green lenses, and is covered in circuits and wires. You are treated as having the effects of true seeing when faced with effects without a caster level or with a caster level equal to or less than your builder level.
Point Effect: For every 2 extra points used for this device, your builder level for the purpose of this device's effects receives a cumulative +1 circumstance bonus.

Hmmm. Curious device.


Emergency Teleporter
Cost: 33
Type: Ring
Uses: Single-use
Save: None
Effect: This ring is studded with tiny white gems. Depending on the circumstances, they occasionally glow. When building this ring, its maker must designate specific conditions under which it will activate, as well as where the user is teleported. When activated, this device replicates the effects of word of recall for its wearer, as well as 1 other willing creature per 1 builder levels. Using this device destroys it.
Point Effect: Every 4 points grants an additional use of this ring before it is destroyed.

Contingent teleport at level 11. Another curious beast.


Enhanced Cloaker
Cost: 14
Type: Cloak
Uses: Special; see text
Save: None
Effect: This cloak is barely visible, an obvious advancement from its predecessor. This device functions like the cloaker, except that it replicates greater invisibility.
Point Effect: Each extra point used by this gadget grants you a +1 competence bonus to Hide and Move Silently checks (cumulative).

....you are kidding, right? You're joking? Greater invisibility at level 5? No, no, not in a million years.


Ethereal Pulser
Cost: 14
Type: Vest
Uses: 5/day
Save: None
Effect: This vest, covered in strange crystals and boggling circuitry, seems to fade into near-invisibility at its edges. 5 times per day, this vest can be used to replicate ethereal jaunt as a Wizard of your Builder Level.
Point Effect: If you use 5 extra points on this device, your natural and melee attacks gain the force descriptor, allowing you to use them against corporeal creatures without the accompanying miss chance.

...this is a level seven spell. That you can access five times per day at level five. What.


Extinguisher
Cost: 15
Type: Wand
Uses: At will
Save: Reflex partial; see text
Effect: This Wand feels cool to the touch. If you hold it too close to a bonfire or other large heat source, it trembles, almost like it's anticipating something. This device allows you to replicate the quench spell as a swift action. Any creature that would be damaged by this effect can make a Reflex save to halve damage from this spell.
Point Effect: Every extra point used on this device increases your fire resistance by 1.

Nothing to see here.


Flashbang [Light][Extraordinary]
Cost: 13
Type: Special
Uses: 1/2 BL per day
Save: Will negates
Effect: This device appears to be an assembler of some sort. When you open it, you find a small, eggshaped object with a pin. This machine generates 1/2 Builder Level grenades each day. Those within 30 feet of a thrown grenade must make a will save or be stunned and/or deafened for 1d8 rounds. Each save must be made independently.
Point Effect: Every 2 extra points grants an extra grenade per day.

Typo bolded. This seems like a bread-and-butter gadget, and reasonable for its level.


Force Cannon [Force]
Cost: 21
Type: Weapon
Uses: 1/2 BL/day
Save: None
Effect: This pistol has a small number of glass orbs set into the sides of the barrel, each one glowing gently. This +1 pistol (1d10 piercing, crit 20 x3, 50-ft. range) can, as a standard action, launch a bolt of force at a target, effectively making a bull rush without risk of taking attacks of opportunity. The Strength of this force is equal to the intelligence of this pistol's maker. If the bull rush succeeds, the target takes 1d6/4 Builder Levels of force damage, +1d6 for every 5 by which the blast succeeds its check.
Point Effect: Every 2 extra points increase the effective Strength score of the force blast.

I think this could probably be made at will without any issues.


Freeze Ray [Cold]
Cost: 22
Type: Wand
Uses: 10 charges/day
Save: Fortitude negates
Effect: This small device feels cold to the touch, as if it wants to freeze you solid. By consuming one charge, you can freeze a target solid as a swift action. This replicates a flesh to stone spell, as cast by a Wizard of your Builder Level, except that creatures who are immune to cold damage are unaffected. Conversely, you can use 1 charge as a swift action to replicate the effects of stone to flesh, either to undo the effects of this device or to simply remove a petrification effect like normal.
Point Effect: For every 2 extra points you spend on this device, it holds 1 extra charge per day.

...flesh to stone? At level 8? As a swift action?

Also, am I only at F? You totally owe me two critiques for this.


Glyph Trap
Cost: 18
Type: Trap
Uses: Single-use
Save: Will or Fortitude negates; see text
Effect: This machine is composed of a small device tipped with a glass lens, easily concealed. When triggered, the device send out a beam that either incapacitates or agonizes the target. This gadget acts as a death trap, except that it instead replicates symbol of pain or symbol of sleep. You must determine which effect the trap has when creating it.
Point Effect: Each extra point increases the save DC by 1.

See my comments on the death trap.


Graviton Grenade
Cost: 42
Type: Grenade
Uses: Single-use
Save: Fortitude negates
Effect: This strange, metal egg is at least 5 times as heavy as its size and materials would suggest. When you throw it, people die in a horrible, crushing death. This grenade effects any and all creatures within a 10-foot radius, immediately subjecting them to the effects of the implosion spell.
Point Effect: Each extra point increases the save DC of this machine by 1.

With EEP, this comes online at level 12, and semi-replicates a ninth level spell - with a rapidly scaling save DC. Seems too strong.


Greater Powersuit
Cost: 13
Type: Armor
Uses: Passive
Save: None
Effect: This mighty suit of +1 full plate armor looks to be far larger than its intended occupant, and imbues the wearer with greater strength at the cost of agility. While wearing this suit, you are treated as two sizes larger than normal. Your Strength increases by 4, your Dexterity reduces by 4, and you gain a -2 to attack and AC due to your new size. This armor must be made for a specific size, and will not function for larger or smaller sizes.
Point Effect: For every 2 extra points, you receive a +1 circumstance bonus to attack rolls and a +1 increase to the enhancement bonus of this armor.

...no. Size increases are difficult to find - giving someone two bonus size categories at level five is just ridiculous.


Hard-Light Projector [Light]
Cost: 42
Type: Rod
Uses: 3/day
Save: Will (disbelief); see text
Effect: This small rod is composed of small pieces of electronics wrapped around a slender piece of metal. It is topped with a pair of polished stereoscopic lenses, with a glowing gem between them. This gem emits light equal to that of a torch. This gadget can be used as a swift action to replicate the effects of a shades spell, except that it does not have a shadow component. This device will function 3 times/day.
Point Effect: Using 10 extra points makes the conjurations replicated by the magic of this device 90% real instead of only 80%.

Level 13, ninth level spell - replicating an eighth level spell at 80% real. I'm seeing a pattern here of underpricing high-level spells.


Holographic Disguise [Light]
Cost: 5
Type: Amulet
Uses: Passive
Save: None
Effect: This machine is little more than a wire-wrapped piece of quartz with a small, blinking light in its heart, hanging on a leather string. When you place it around your neck, you immediately take on a new appearance. This device replicates the effects of alter self on the wearer. The appearance must be determined when the device is built.
Point Effect: For every 3 points you spend, the wearer gains 1 social skill trick (to be chosen at the time of building) while wearing this gadget.

I think you mean disguise self, in which case this is proooobably fine.


Holotron [Light]
Cost: 9
Type: Special
Uses: 1/4 BL per day
Save: Will (disbelief)
Effect: This machine sits short and squat on the ground. It glows and hums slightly when activated, creating a stunningly lifelike image. When placed on the ground and activated (a full-round action), this device generates a holographic image as per the major image spell, as cast by a Wizard of your level. This machine can function up to 1 time per day for every 4 Builder Levels.
Point Effect: For every extra point, increase the save DC of this device by 1.

...major image at level 4? You just want to drive all the wizards out of business.


Hypno Hat [Mind-Affecting]
Cost: 3
Type: Hat
Uses: 1/4 BL per day
Save: Will negates
Effect: This hat looks rather silly, just a ratty old turban with a small disk painted with a swirling pattern. When you spin the disk, you begin to momentarily lose yourself. This device can replicate the effects of a hypnotism spell as a Wizard of your level once per day per 4 Builder Levels.
Point Effect: Each extra point either increases the duration of the effect by 1 round, or increase the save DC by 1. You can mix these bonus as you please.

Seems reasonable.


Hypnotic Field Enhancer
Cost: 13
Type: Amulet
Uses: Passive
Save: None
Effect: This little ball of circuits and wires, hanging from a small metal chain, heats up when the wearer focuses intently on a thought. When the wearer uses an effect that fascinates a certain number of HD of creatures, she can instead fascinate 125% as many.
Point Effect: For every extra point you spend, the amount of HD that can be fascinated increases by 5 percentage points.

A somewhat roundabout thing, but... I guess it's okay? Seems hard to balance.


Illumination Matrix [Extraordinary]
Cost: 1
Type: Goggles
Uses: Passive
Save: None
Effect: These goggles resemble large glasses, with green-tinted glass that glimmers like a cat's eyes. These goggles, when worn, grant low-light vision.
Point Effect: If you spend 5 extra points, this item grants Darkvision 15, or extends existing Darkvision by the same amount. If you spend 10 extra points, this increases to Darkvision 30.

Sure.


Improved Auto-doc
Cost: 43
Type: Backpack
Uses: 3/day
Save: None
Effect: This machine is covered in all manner of bizarre and advanced surgical equipment. It resembles he Auto-Doc, but when you see it at work, you know that it is far more advanced. This device can replicate the effects of a regenerate spell on its wearer, as cast by a Cleric of your Builder Level, as a swift action. You can attach the Auto-doc to this gadget and treat them a s a single device. This does not return any gadget points, but it allows you to use both their effects simultaneously.
Point Effect: Each extra point grants the device a +1 cumulative competence bonus to caster level for the purposes of the regenerate effect.

Ah, now this is more like it healing-wise... except that it's both too cheap and too expensive. In fact, I think that's going in as my third overarching issue - I'll discuss that at the end. Besides the overarching issue it seems alright.


Instant Door
Cost: 25
Type: Wand
Uses: 5/day
Save: None
Effect: This device resembles an oversized iron key, with a piece of quartz set in the end, and a row of 5 tiny lights dotting the shaft. When you point it at a flat surface, you can create a phase door as a Wizard of your Builder Level 5 times per day. You can make this door visible and usable to anyone you choose by giving them a preset password. When they speak the password near the door, it becomes publically visible and usable by anyone for 1 use.
Point Effect: If you spend 10 extra points on this gadget, it becomes a permanent object, usable any number of times, but unmovable unless completely dismantled. It also acquires the [Trap] descriptor,

Mmhm.


Intellect Device
Cost: 16
Type: Headband or collar
Uses: Passive
Save: Will negates (harmless)
Effect: This collar has dozens of complex widgets studding it. When placed around an animal's head or neck, this device replicates the effects of an awaken spell on its wearer. The creature will still have the same attitudes it had before becoming sentient.
Point Effect: If you spend at least 5 extra points, the creature also gains the capacity to speak, knowing one language the builder knows. Each additional point teaches it a new language out of those that the builder knows.

A curious device, but given the limited duration of 'until I need those points' it seems fine.


Jetpack [Force]
Cost: 17
Type: Backpack
Uses: Special
Save: None
Effect: [S]This strange device, when used, generates a This device allows you to replicate the effects of overland flight. You may replicate these effects for a total amount of time up to the duration appropriate for a Wizard of your Builder Level, but it doesn't need to be consecutive. Once you have expended the full amount of time for your level, the Jetpack ceases to function for 24 hours, after which it will be fully charged.
Point Effect: Each extra point reduces the recharge time by 1 hour.

You had to do it, didn't you? Typo is struck through. Also, that point effect will struggle to do anything of use - even at BL 20, it's still 14 hours of recharge.


Jump Jet [Force]
Cost: 8
Type: Backpack
Uses: 1/day per BL
Save: None
Effect: It resembles a Jetpack, but seems much more compact. It's unlikely that it could sustain true flight. Once per day per Builder Level, you can leap a total vertical and horizontal distance of 60 feet as a move action. Doing so in combat provokes attacks of opportunity.
Point Effect: For every 2 additional points spent on this gadget, you receive a Dodge bonus to AC against Attacks of Opportunity while moving.

Seems alright, I suppose. How much of a dodge bonus?


Lesser Powersuit
Cost: 4
Type: Armor
Uses: Passive
Save: None
Effect: This suit of +1 Half-Plate armor is noticeably larger than normal, and closer inspection of the inside shows some sort of frame. The wearer of this armor is effectively 1 size greater than normal, as per enlarge person, except that your Strength only increases by 1, your Dexterity only reduces by 1, and you receive no size penalties to AC or Attack. This device must be built for a specific size, and will not function for creatures larger or smaller than intended.
Point Effect: For every 2 extra points, you receive a +1 circumstance bonus to Dexterity.

Permanent enlarge person. At level 1. You will be everybody's friend except the DM. I would seriously consider dipping this just for this gadget on an otherwise pure fighter-type.


Magic De-Binder
Cost: 10
Type: Wand
Uses: 1/4 BL per day
Save: None
Effect: This wand is warm to the touch, and spellcasters and other magic-users feel “tingly” when they touch it. This wand can replicate dispel magic, as a Wizard of your Builder Level once per day per 4 Builder Levels.
Point Effect: Each extra point grants a cumulative +1 competence bonus on caster level checks made to dispel effects with this item.

Mmmhm.


Magic Fizzler
Cost: 35
Type: Special
Uses: Special
Save: None
Effect: This machine appears to be just a simple black box with a bright red button. After this device has been set down and activated, it sends a brief flash of light, and then remains inert for 1 round. After that round, the box, and a 60-foot sphere around it, are enveloped in a field of wild magic.
Point Effect: If you use 10 points, you can designate that any creature affected by wild magic may roll twice for their results and choose which result they receive within the wild magic zone.

Ummm. Seems expensive, given that you must set it down and activate it... but how long does the field last?


Minor Thaumic Capacitor
Cost: 3
Type: Special
Uses: Passive
Save: None
Effect: This small device looks like it would be attached to the hilt or pommel of a weapon. While attached to a weapon, this gadget grants it a +1 enhancement bonus.
Point Effect: For every 2 extra points, the hardness of the attached weapon increases by 5.

The point effect is pretty minimal. This will fall out of fashion quickly, but is pretty nice at level 1 - this is the sort of effect I expected of this class going in.


Missile Focus
Cost: 10
Type: Amulet
Uses: Passive
Save: None
Effect: This rather close-fitting choker has a red gem set in its center. When you cast a spell that fires multiple projectiles, the gem turns to the same color as those projectiles and the looses extras. Any spell which launches multiple projectiles (e.g. magic missile) that is cast by the wearer of this gadget launches 1 extra projectile per 3 Builder Levels.
Point Effect: Every 4 extra points grants a +1 cumulative insight bonus on damage to each projectile from projectile spells.

Hmmm. Doesn't seem like enough of a boost to really be worth it in most cases.

Halfway through the alphabet. I hate you. :smallyuk:


Neural Scrambler [Mind-Affecting]
Cost: 26
Type: Rod
Uses: Single-Use
Save: Will negates
Effect: This rod, a plain stick of ivory, when touched to a target's head, drives them mad. This replicates insanity as cast by a Wizard of your Builder Level.
Point Effect: For each extra point, the save DC increases by 1.

Mmmhm.


Null Field Generator
Cost: 28
Type: Trap
Uses: Single Use
Save: None
Effect: This trap feels cold to the touch, and it actually hurts for spellcasters and other magic users to hold it for too long. When this trap is activated, it replicates either an antimagic field or soulbanned zone (from Magic of Incarnum), which is chosen at trap creation, as cast by a Wizard of the maker's Builder Level. This effect is centered either on the triggerer of the trap, or where the trap was triggered.
Point Effect: Every 3 extra points used on this device doubles the size of the effect area, up to a maximum of 80 feet

Mmmhm.


Oil Slick Boots/Gloves [Extraordinary]
Cost: 2
Type: Gloves or Boots; see text
Uses: 1/4 BL per day
Save: Special; see text
Effect: This device either takes the form of some very oily-looking gloves, or a pair of boots with small containers built into the soles. If this gadget is built as gloves, you can replicate the portion of the grease spell that allows you to imbue the effect on an object, while if it is built as boots, you can only replicate the portion of the spell that creates a ground-bound oil slick. Either way, you can use this as a Wizard of your Builder Level once per day per 4 builder levels.
Point Effect: Each extra point increases the save DC of the effect by 1, as well as increasing the Balance DC vs. the oil slick effect by 1.

Mmmhm.


Overclocker
Cost: 33
Type: Special
Uses: Special
Save: None
Effect: This rather gnarly-looking electronic component it intended to be attached to certain magic items. It allows you to increase the effectiveness of those items, at the cost of their durability. This gadget can be attached to any item with charges or limited (but not per-day) uses, and other gadgets with limited uses, limited charges, or charges or uses per day. You can use any Metamagic feat you possess with spells cast or replicated by this item, but doing so expends extra uses or charges equal to the number of levels this increases the spell by (minimum 1).
Point Effect: For every 3 extra points you use to make this gadget, reduce the number of extra charges used for metamagic by 1 (minimum 1).

Seems almost too weak for its cost, except that the point effect is very strong.


Perfect Pick [Extraordinary]
Cost: 6
Type: Special
Uses: Special
Save: None
Effect: These masterwork thieves' tools are so astoundingly well-built that they can facilitate very rapid disabling of locks and devices, allowing the user to take 10 on any Open Lock or Disable Device check, regardless of circumstances, as a full-round action, once per day. Due to its fine-tunedness, any time where its user fails a check with them by more than 5, they revert to being normal thieves' tools until repaired, returning its Engineering Point cost to their creator.
Point Effect: For every 2 extra point spent on this gadget, the user receives a +1 competence bonus to Open Lock and Disable Device checks.

Sure.


Persistent Hologram [Light][Trap]
Cost: 21
Type: Special
Uses: Special
Save: Will (disbelief)
Effect: This small device consists of a small electronic device with a hemispherical glass lens on top of it, sitting on a tripod. This machine replicates the effects of a permanent image spell, as cast by a Wizard of your Builder Level.
Point Effect: None

Mmmhm.


Planar Gate [Trap]
Cost: 40
Type: Special
Uses: Continual
Save: None
Effect: This device takes the form of a doorway intended for a Medium-sized creature to enter comfortably. Upon entering, you find yourself in another plane. This gadget replicates the planar travel effect of a gate spell continuously. This gate is always active, save for if it is dispelled, and can be entered from either the plane of origin or the destination plane, allowing travel between the two. Do note that this can be very dangerous, especially the hazardous planes such as the plane of Negative Energy!!
Point Effect: For every 2 extra points, the portal's size increases by 1 category, to a maximum of Collossal.

Mmmhm.


Portal Gun
Cost: 19
Type: Rod
Uses: 3/day; see text
Save: None
Effect: This device can be used to set up a pair of portals. They can be any distance apart, so long as they are on the same plane. Travel between them is instantaneous, and momentum is conserved upon entry and exit. The portals can only be created on a smooth, hard, flat surface such as worked stone. Each pair of portals consumes 1 daily use of this device, which can be used three times per day. Each new pair of portals destroys the old pair.
Point Effect: Each extra point used on this item grants it an additional daily use.

...of course. Compare this effect to ring gates - it's probably too strong. Not to mention headache-inducing. Also, specify how large the portals are.


Power Fist
Cost: 4
Type: Gauntlets
Uses: Passive
Save: None
Effect: These gauntlets are much larger than would normally make sense, but when you put them on, they feel natural. They don't seem so light to those you punch. The wearer of these gauntlets has their Unarmed Strike improved so that it does damage as if he were two sizes larger, stacking with other such effects. This does not extend to other natural weapons, such as claw attacks. This gadget must be built for a specific size, and will not function for larger or smaller creatures. This device does not grant Improved Unarmed Strike.
Point Effect: For every 3 extra points spent on this gadget, you receive a +1 circumstance bonus to unarmed attack and damage rolls.

Sure.


Power Servos
Cost: 4
Type: Gauntlets
Uses: 1/4 BL per day
Save: None
Effect: These gauntlets contain a set of powerful motors designed to amplify the wearer's strength. The wearer of these gauntlets can replicate the effects of bull's strength once per day per 4 Builder Levels, as a Wizard of the builder's BL.
Point Effect: Every 3 extra points increase the effect duration by 1 minute.

See my comments on the dexterity equivalent.


Precognition Module
Cost: 41
Type: Helmet
Uses: 2/day
Save: None
Effect: This helmet, covered in electronics and small quartz crystals, can grant its wearer occasional glimpses into the future. 2 times per day, you can replicate the effects of a foresight spell as cast by a Wizard of your Builder Level.
Point Effect: Every 3 extra points increases the bonuses to AC and Reflex by 1.

Mmmhm.


Rebreather [Extraordinary]
Cost: 9
Type: Mask
Uses: Passive
Save: None
Effect: This device allows you to breathe underwater for 2 hours per day per Builder Level (Maximum 24).
Point Effect: None

Sure.


Repair Machine
Cost: 6
Type: Special
Uses: At will
Save: None
Effect: This small widget has various miniature craftsman's tools, and is very handy for fixing and building things. These tools are treated as Masterwork crafting tools, except that they grant a bonus on craft checks equal to 1/4 the maker's Builder Level.
Point Effect: Every 2 extra points increases the granted bonus by +1.

Sure.


Retributive Field [Force]
Cost: 14
Type: Armor
Uses: Passive; see text
Save: None
Effect: This Masterwork leather armor has a few circuits and devices placed on it surface. When you wear it, it takes on an almost metallic sheen. This device grants the wearer DR 5/-, and damages any who attack the wearer in melee, dealing 1d6 + 1/2 Builder Level force damage (maximum +10) to each attacker per melee attack. After the DR from this gadget has prevented a total of 10 damage per Builder Level, the magical qualities of this armor cease to function for 24 hours.
Point Effect: Each extra point used for this Gadget increases the amount of damage it can absorb before ceasing to function by 5

Sure.


Scanalyzer
Cost: 7
Type: Goggles
Uses: 1/4 BL per day
Save: None
Effect: This pair of goggles looks perfectly normal, but when you put them on, the lenses light up, overlaying a helpful display over your field of vision. The wearer of these goggles can replicate the effects of owl's wisdom once per day per 4 Builder Levels, as a Wizard of the builder's BL.
Point Effect: Every 3 extra points increase the effect duration by 1 minute.

...a helpful display that improves clerical spellcasting and will saves. Sure, why not.


Sonic Disruptor [Sonic]
Cost: 18
Type: Rod
Uses: 3/day
Save: None
Effect: This rod is thicker than most, with a strange membrane at each end. When you press the button on the side (a swift action), it begins wailing and screeching, drowning out speech, rendering language-dependent abilities useless, and disrupting spells. Any spell cast within 120 feet of the active gadget requires a DC 30 Concentration Check or it is immediately wasted. This effect lasts for 1 minute, but can be ended by the user at any time as a free action.
Point Effect: Every extra point increases the Concentration DC by 1.

I'm not in general a fan of 'skill check or suck', whether it's for fighters or casters. I'd remove this one altogether.


Soul Puller
Cost: 40
Type: Special
Uses: Single Use
Save: None
Effect: This Huge machine consists of a ring of copper coils, standing on end, with metallic orbs on their ends, arounf a table with leather restraints. Activating the machine burns out the wiring, and has a 50% chance of raising a dead creature placed in the center, provided it can be raised, as if by a raise dead spell as cast by a Cleric of your Builder Level.
Point Effect: Every 2 extra points used for this gadget increases the chance of raising the target by 5 percentage points.

...ouch. That would hurt. Also, this is too weak for its cost when compared with other things of equivalent costs - but see my overarching concerns below.


Spell Refelector
Cost: 26
Type: Rod
Uses: 1/4 BL per day
Save: None
Effect: This rod is silvery and mirror-like. When you press the button on the side, a mirrored field of energy surrounds you, replicating the effects of a spell turning spell as cast by a Wizard of your Builder Level. You may use this gadget a number of times per day equal to 1/4 your Builder Level.
Point Effect: Every 2 extra points used to make this gadget increases the number of spell levels this effect can turn by 1.

Mmmhm.


Stunning Trap [Trap]
Cost: 27
Type: Trap
Uses: Single-Use
Save: Will Negates
Effect: As a death trap, except that it replicates a symbol of stunning as cast by a Wizard of your Builder Level.
Point Effect: Each extra point used on this gadget increases either the DCs to find and disable the trap or the save DC by 1. You can mix these bonuses as you please.

Mmmhm.


Super Servo
Cost: 23
Type: Torso
Uses: 1/day
Save: None
Effect: This tight-fitting bodysuit has a metal skeleton with large motors at the joints. Once per day, you can use this gadget to replicate the statistical effects of a transformation spell.
Point Effect: Every 5 extra points used on this device increase the Dexterity and Strength bonuses by 1.

Clarify what's meant by a transformation spell.


Superior Fire Trap [Trap]
Cost: 28
Type: Trap
Uses: Single Use
Saves: Reflex partial; see text
Effect: This small trap consists of a tripwire or pressure plate and a small, rod-shaped object. When activated, this trap launches a small bead of energy at the triggerer of the trap, which will explode as a delayed blast fireball as cast by a Wizard of your Builder Level. You can choose the delay set on the blast when making the trap, but once set, it can't be changed.
Point Effect: Each extra point increases the save DC of this effect by 1.

Mmmhm.


Superior Magic De-Binder
Cost: 23
Type: Rod
Uses: 1/4 BL per day
Save: None
Effect: This machine resembles a magic de-binder, but is larger, and actually stings for magic-users to hold. This device functions as a magic de-binder, except that it replicates the effects of greater dispel magic.
Point Effect: Each extra point grants a cumulative +1 competence bonus on caster level checks made to dispel effects with this item.

Mmmhm.


Taser
Cost: 9
Type: Rod
Uses: 1/4 BL per day
Save: Fortitude negates
Effect: This rod has two small metal prongs at the end. When you press the button and touch an opponent with the pronged end, it often paralyzes them. This gadget replicates the effects of a hold person spell, except that the effect requires a Fortitude save and is not mind-affecting.
Point Effect: Each extra point increases the save DC of this effect by 1.

Mmmhm.


Temporal Freeze Device
Cost: 42
Type: Staff
Uses: 2 times/day
Save: None
Effect: This staff, made of a plain shaft of wood and topped with complicated electronics, can be used to replicate the effects of a time stop spell as cast by a Wizard of your Builder Level twice per day.
Point Effect: Every 2 extra points increases the duration from the user's perspective by 1 round.

Mmmhm.


Torch and Wire [Trap]
Cost: 12
Type: Trap
Uses: Single Use
Save: Reflex half
Effect: This deceptively simple-looking trap replicates the effect of a fire trap spell, as cast by a Druid of your Builder Level.
Point Effect: Each extra point increases the save DC of this device by 1.

Mmmhm.


Translation Matrix
Cost: 7
Type: Amulet
Uses: BL minutes/day
Save: None
Effect: You can reproduce the effects of a tongues spell as cast by a Wizard of your level for up to 20 minutes per day. This time needn't be consecutive, and can be split up however you choose.
Point Effect: Every 2 extra points used on this device grant a cumulative +1 insight bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks for conversational uses.

Mmmhm.


Ultimate Prison [Trap]
Cost: 33
Type: Trap
Uses: Single Use
Save: Special; see text
Effect: This trap replicates the effects of either a maze spell or the trigger object version of trap the soul on its tripper, chosen at the time of creating the trap.
Point Effect: Each extra point increases the DC to find and disarm this trap by 1.

Mmmhm.


Wall-Climbing Gloves
Cost: 6
Type: Gloves
Uses: Passive
Save: None
Effect: These leather gloves are covered in fine hairs that give it the appearance of black velvet. The wearer of these gloves receive a climb speed equal to 1/2 their base speed, and receive a +5 circumstance bonus on all checks and saves to keep hold of an object.
Point Effect: Every 2 extra points increases the climb speed granted by these gloves by 5 feet.

Mmmhm.


Wide-Range Hologram [Light]
Cost: 12
Type: Staff
Uses: 100 Charges/day
Save: Will (disbelief)
Effect: You can replicate the effects of hallucinatory terrain (10 charges/use) and illusory wall (1 charge/use) using this device. Each effect is treated as if cast by a Wizard of your Builder Level.
Point Effect: Each extra point grants either 10 extra daily charges, or increases the save DC for its effects by 1. You can mix these bonuses as you please.

Mmmhm.


Zero-Point Cage [Force][Trap]
Cost: 30
Type: Trap
Uses: Single Use
Save: Will special; see text
Effect: The triggerer of this trap is immediately encased in the windowless cell version of the forcecage spell. Additionally, they must make a Will save or become comatose until they are released.
Point Effect: For each extra point, the duration of the effect increases by 1 hour.

Mmmhm.


Zero-Point Device [Force]
Cost: 18
Type: Gloves
Uses: 1/day
Save: Reflex negates (object)
Effect: These gloves each have a polished lens in their palms. These lenses have no hardness and 1 hit point. When both lenses are broken, the device ceases to function. These gloves allow the wearer to replicate a telekinetic sphere once per day as a Wizard of your Builder Level.
Point Effect: None

Mmmhm.



Okay. Overarching concerns, which are threefold. I apologize in advance if any of this is incoherent, but it's getting kinda late here.

First, too many of these devices are rather niche. This makes the class extremely dependant on good intel. If there were a lot of non-niche items this would be fine, but as it is it makes it too easy to render this class useless or hyperpowerful by accident.

Second, the limitations on charges per day is completely obviated by the fact that you can cannibalize and reassemble a device in a matter of minutes. This needs addressing.

Finally, your points costs are wonky. This class gets access to ninth-level spells as early as thirteenth level, but at that point it costs your entire EP reserve to use one. This sort of specialization - done on the fly, too - is not really desirable, as (for example) a single casting of shades can wipe out an encounter at that level. However, by the time you get to a level where such effects are appropriate it's still making up a significant chunk of your EP - two ninth-equivalent items eat your entire reserve at 20th level. I suggest either steepening the EP curve (and adjusting costs to match) or simply putting a reasonable cap on EP that can be spent on a single gadget.

If you can fix those three issues, I think this could be a reasonable (if extremely powerful) class. As it is, it's honestly brokenly powerful.

malonkey1
2013-02-13, 09:56 AM
Okay. Overarching concerns, which are threefold. I apologize in advance if any of this is incoherent, but it's getting kinda late here.

First, too many of these devices are rather niche. This makes the class extremely dependant on good intel. If there were a lot of non-niche items this would be fine, but as it is it makes it too easy to render this class useless or hyperpowerful by accident.



Intended. It was designed to be a very "preparation-heavy" class. It's good to have a scout in the party.



Second, the limitations on charges per day is completely obviated by the fact that you can cannibalize and reassemble a device in a matter of minutes. This needs addressing.

Addressed in the end of the paragraph as of an edit a few minutes ago. Thanks for pointing that out.


Finally, your points costs are wonky. This class gets access to ninth-level spells as early as thirteenth level, but at that point it costs your entire EP reserve to use one. This sort of specialization - done on the fly, too - is not really desirable, as (for example) a single casting of shades can wipe out an encounter at that level. However, by the time you get to a level where such effects are appropriate it's still making up a significant chunk of your EP - two ninth-equivalent items eat your entire reserve at 20th level. I suggest either steepening the EP curve (and adjusting costs to match) or simply putting a reasonable cap on EP that can be spent on a single gadget.

If you can fix those three issues, I think this could be a reasonable (if extremely powerful) class. As it is, it's honestly brokenly powerful.

I've taken your advice and steepened the EP curve, while raising some of the prices. I've greatly increased the prices of and/or nerfed overpowered gadgets that you pointed out, and I added an EP cap per gadget of 2*(BL + Int Bonus). Assuming a fairly reasonable Int score, this can be up to about 50 at the most for a somewhat optimized AE. The most powerful gadgets can now really only be gotten by greater optimization.

Thank you for PEACHing, I will grant your first PEACH later today, and then the other upon your future request.

Fortuna
2013-02-13, 01:15 PM
Intended. It was designed to be a very "preparation-heavy" class. It's good to have a scout in the party.

Intended or not, I think it's undesirable. This class has the ability to prepare an appropriate response to an encounter given an hour of warning - if there were more gadgets available, this would be not merely T1 but T0.


Addressed in the end of the paragraph as of an edit a few minutes ago. Thanks for pointing that out.

A reasonable fix, but doesn't do much about weekly uses.


I've taken your advice and steepened the EP curve, while raising some of the prices. I've greatly increased the prices of and/or nerfed overpowered gadgets that you pointed out, and I added an EP cap per gadget of 2*(BL + Int Bonus). Assuming a fairly reasonable Int score, this can be up to about 50 at the most for a somewhat optimized AE. The most powerful gadgets can now really only be gotten by greater optimization.

You do realize that now you need an intelligence score of 28 to build the Hard-Light Projector pre-epic, and even more to actually invest points in it? That minor issue aside, the cap seems fine at a glance, but I think you may have mistaken my meaning. The gadgets that you start to build at tenth level (assume BL 10, Int 20 - maximum cost of 30) still make up a third of your point reserve at 20th. Over the course of ten levels, an ability should go from something you can pull off if you have to to something you can throw out like it was nothing, and at the moment it doesn't really do that.


Thank you for PEACHing, I will grant your first PEACH later today, and then the other upon your future request.

's okay. I was mostly joking about the two.

malonkey1
2013-02-13, 08:44 PM
A reasonable fix, but doesn't do much about weekly uses.

I removed weekly uses.

[/quote]
You do realize that now you need an intelligence score of 28 to build the Hard-Light Projector pre-epic, and even more to actually invest points in it? That minor issue aside, the cap seems fine at a glance, but I think you may have mistaken my meaning. The gadgets that you start to build at tenth level (assume BL 10, Int 20 - maximum cost of 30) still make up a third of your point reserve at 20th. Over the course of ten levels, an ability should go from something you can pull off if you have to to something you can throw out like it was nothing, and at the moment it doesn't really do that.[/QUOTE]

Raised Point Budgets, increased the maximum EP value. Tell me if you think it needs to be changed more.

sirpercival
2013-02-14, 08:23 PM
I'm up to 18 of 78 (!) or so planned phenomena posted for the Astronomer.

I need to include some kind of summary, and I wanted some input on what would be most intuitive. The summary will include phenomena names and 1-line descriptions; the other information I'm considering including is:

(a) superior conjunction
(b) inferior conjunctions
(c) # of inferior conjunctions (analogous to spell level)
(d) conjunctions removed
(e) conjunctions added
(f) all of the above
(g) some of the above
(h) none of the above

Thoughts? If I include at least 2 of the above, it'll probably be a table, otherwise a list.

Tavar
2013-02-15, 09:22 PM
You probably want to do at least c) # of inferior conjunctions (analogous to spell level).

Also, starting to get some meat on my class. Have about 1/3 of the Path of Horror done. Main thing I'd like help with is some of the names: most of the path names and Adventurer Augmentations are essentially placeholds, as I know they need names but couldn't really think of better ones.

Edit: and does anyone know of a good, free method to make flow charts. I think it might be useful to have the Augmentations be in one, but, well, it's going to take a long time using paint or something similar.

Fortuna
2013-02-19, 03:24 AM
I think I'm going to have to bow out, more's the pity. I kind of lost the thread of this nearly a week ago, and I don't really have the endurance for a project like this in any event. Best of luck, all, and may the best class win.

Temotei
2013-02-20, 06:37 PM
I think I'm going to have to bow out, more's the pity. I kind of lost the thread of this nearly a week ago, and I don't really have the endurance for a project like this in any event. Best of luck, all, and may the best class win.

Too bad. Try to come back for the next contest rather than duck out of GitP for months, eh? :smallredface:

Morph Bark
2013-02-20, 06:47 PM
Lemme see, submissions are due by... March 15th.

...so should I come back next month? :smalltongue:

Fortuna
2013-02-20, 08:54 PM
Too bad. Try to come back for the next contest rather than duck out of GitP for months, eh? :smallredface:

Never!

*disappear*

sirpercival
2013-03-03, 07:43 PM
Welp! It seems I'm done writing phenomena until the contest is over, since I maxed out the character count on that post... :)

So, Astronomer is officially (for now) done!

Temotei
2013-03-03, 10:23 PM
Welp! It seems I'm done writing phenomena until the contest is over, since I maxed out the character count on that post... :)

So, Astronomer is officially (for now) done!

You could always make another post and just link to it in your previous one if you want more space.

sirpercival
2013-03-03, 10:31 PM
You could always make another post and just link to it in your previous one if you want more space.

Yes, BUT! they wouldn't be together. Which would cause intense sadness.

Also I don't have too many more. So it's probably not worth it.

Ra_Va
2013-03-03, 10:41 PM
Almost finished with the Saint of Zarus fine-tuning some aspects, though its a possibility I might need some help with the whole 'stolen racial trait' abilities.

Pyromancer999
2013-03-04, 09:14 PM
Lemme see, submissions are due by... March 15th.

...so should I come back next month? :smalltongue:

I say do it if you want to and have the time. You're pretty speedy at home brewing, Morph, so I'd think time would be less of a restriction than ideas or wanting to.

Speaking of next month/Base Class Contest, are we doing ideas for the next one yet? Have an idea that may or may not be interesting.

Just to Browse
2013-03-07, 10:26 PM
My last midterm is over, and now I want to do something again...

... no one appears to have done robots yet. I think that's worth a shot.

Temotei
2013-03-16, 05:29 PM
Only five entries to vote (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14909004) for this time. We actually have more disqualified entries than valid ones. :smallsigh:

Anyone want to see a particular theme for the next one?

sirpercival
2013-03-16, 05:34 PM
I know Bozwevial had been working like crazy on an entry, and then he couldn't quite finish in time. He was quite discouraged. :(


It looks like Heroes of Note, Something Bad Luck, Slack and Hash, SCIENCE and MADNESS have all been seconded so far.

From the chart in the old thread, Inner Planes, Time, and Alternate Magic all had two votes each.

Temotei
2013-03-16, 05:48 PM
I know Bozwevial had been working like crazy on an entry, and then he couldn't quite finish in time. He was quite discouraged. :(

It happens, man. I feel that.

{table=head]Theme|Votes
Heroes of Note|1
Something Bad Luck|1
Slack and Hash (food)|0
Madness|0
Inner Planes|0
Time|1
Alternate Magic|1
NPCs|2[/table]

Pyromancer999
2013-03-16, 06:32 PM
Anyone want to see a particular theme for the next one?

I think having an NPC class theme would be interesting. Not like the ones that WoTC made, more like homebrew ones that would suit an NPC more than a PC.

Amechra
2013-03-16, 07:38 PM
I say go for the hack and slash one (unless I'm misreading that...)

sirpercival
2013-03-16, 07:42 PM
I say go for the hack and slash one (unless I'm misreading that...)

Actually that suggestion was "Slack and Hash", based around food.

Temotei
2013-03-16, 07:47 PM
I say go for the hack and slash one (unless I'm misreading that...)


Actually that suggestion was "Slack and Hash", based around food.

Clarified in the table. Are you still voting for it?

Quellian-dyrae
2013-03-16, 07:53 PM
I'll put in a vote for Time. I've been wanting to create a Time Knight class...

Amechra
2013-03-16, 07:58 PM
Clarified in the table. Are you still voting for it?

Eh, I'll change my vote to Bad Luck, then.

Morph Bark
2013-03-17, 05:54 AM
I'll vote for NPCs.

I'm still working on that Teacher class, btw. I didn't manage to finish it on time, thus why it wasn't posted. I've largely been occupied with cooking and cleaning, as both my parents were gone for work.

My main problem with figuring out the class has been which of two directions to go with it: either DnD-focused in flavour (which would likely make it a very meta class) or like a real-life highschool teacher.

sirpercival
2013-03-17, 06:58 AM
I'll vote for Heroes of Note. NPCs to me seems... either too narrow or too broad.

malonkey1
2013-03-17, 09:00 AM
I gotta vote for Alternate Magic Systems, either coming up with new ones, or using under-used old ones. Always wanted to try a Truename warrior, sort of a Magus of Truespeech.

malonkey1
2013-03-18, 05:05 PM
Funny. If things keep going the way they're going, I may actually place in this one!

Temotei
2013-03-18, 05:07 PM
Funny. If things keep going the way they're going, I may actually place in this one!

You have a good chance of breaking sirpercival's winning streak, too. :smalltongue:

sirpercival
2013-03-19, 12:24 PM
You have a good chance of breaking sirpercival's winning streak, too. :smalltongue:

:smalltongue:

We need more votes on the new topic...

Bozwevial
2013-03-19, 12:35 PM
:smalltongue:

We need more votes on the new topic...I'll throw in a vote for Heroes of Note. I had a whole slew of ideas on that score not thirty seconds ago.

Morph Bark
2013-03-19, 12:39 PM
You have a good chance of breaking sirpercival's winning streak, too. :smalltongue:

Well, a variety in winners is good, isn't it? I've never participated in consequetive contests in any of the Homebrew contests on GitP partly due to this (and partly due to not having inspiration for BCC XI :smallredface:).

Octopusapult
2013-03-19, 01:48 PM
Is anyone allowed to vote? Or do I have to have made a submission previously?

Temotei
2013-03-19, 02:44 PM
Well, a variety in winners is good, isn't it? I've never participated in consequetive contests in any of the Homebrew contests on GitP partly due to this (and partly due to not having inspiration for BCC XI :smallredface:).

I'm just pointing out that the good sir has won so many in a row, it's about time someone stole a kneecap or two.


Is anyone allowed to vote? Or do I have to have made a submission previously?

Anyone is allowed to vote. I'll clarify the voting rules in the voting thread.

{table=head]Theme|Votes|Voters
Heroes of Note|3|sirpercival, Bozwevial, Drammor
Something Bad Luck|2|Amechra, Octopusapult
Slack and Hash (food)|0|-
Madness|0|-
Inner Planes|0|-
Time|1|Quellian-dyrae
Alternate Magic|2|malonkey1, zetsu1919
NPCs|2|Pyromancer999, Morph Bark[/table]

Morph Bark
2013-03-19, 03:09 PM
I'm just pointing out that the good sir has won so many in a row, it's about time someone stole a kneecap or two.

True, true. Kneecaps are a precious resource.

By the way, what was the idea for Heroes of Note? Like, old heroes like King Arthur and Gilgamesh?

Temotei
2013-03-19, 03:10 PM
By the way, what was the idea for Heroes of Note? Like, old heroes like King Arthur and Gilgamesh?

The original idea was, I think, sengmeng's. He said musically-inclined classes. I was going to expand it to include heroes like them, too, so you could either have a hero class or a class telling stories about heroes or whatever.

Octopusapult
2013-03-19, 03:39 PM
Thanks, I'm coming up with my votes now.

Has the next theme already been picked? And if not, are they open to suggestions?

Temotei
2013-03-19, 05:01 PM
Thanks, I'm coming up with my votes now.

Cool beans.


Has the next theme already been picked? And if not, are they open to suggestions?

The table above lists current ideas for themes. If you have an idea, you can give that, or you can vote for another idea.

ArkenBrony
2013-03-19, 06:19 PM
i vote for alternate magic

Octopusapult
2013-03-19, 07:24 PM
In that case I'd like to vote for Something Bad Luck, and I'll save my suggestion for next time around.

malonkey1
2013-03-19, 07:51 PM
To Octopusapult:

While I wouldn't say that it was a "reimagining" of Artificer, it certainly drew the same inspirations. Thanks for voting! I wish Sirpercival luck, but I hope I can get a Kneecap.

Octopusapult
2013-03-19, 08:14 PM
To Octopusapult:

While I wouldn't say that it was a "reimagining" of Artificer, it certainly drew the same inspirations. Thanks for voting! I wish Sirpercival luck, but I hope I can get a Kneecap.

I'm no expert. Just a guy on the internet. I hope I wasn't too harsh.

Temotei
2013-03-19, 08:29 PM
I'm no expert. Just a guy on the internet. I hope I wasn't too harsh.

You gave him a second place vote. If that's harsh, I'll just quit life now. :smalltongue:

sirpercival
2013-03-19, 08:34 PM
malonkey1: if Arcane Engineer wins I will certainly not begrudge you that kneecap :smallbiggrin:

Ammutseba
2013-03-19, 08:35 PM
I'm going to vote
For Heroes of Note

Octopusapult
2013-03-19, 09:17 PM
You gave him a second place vote. If that's harsh, I'll just quit life now. :smalltongue:

I feel like I said more negative things in the spoiler tags than I really meant to say, because I really do like the class.

...just not as much as the Astronomer... :smalltongue:


malonkey1: if Arcane Engineer wins I will certainly not begrudge you that kneecap :smallbiggrin:

Due in part to guilt for maybe being overly critical and the desire to see the underdogs come up from behind, I kind of hope it does.

malonkey1
2013-03-20, 06:03 PM
I'm amazed that I'm doing as well as I am! I hope things keep up for me! And I'll remember to be more careful about wording next contest. It should help that I don't plan to do something so complex next time.

Octopusapult
2013-03-20, 06:44 PM
If Something Bad Luck wins I might make some time to submit my own entry. Unfortunately it's the only theme I'm really interested (except maybe Time, and NPCs)

...and the fact that I have had some ideas for luck based classes in my head for a while now doesn't hurt... :smallbiggrin:

sirpercival
2013-03-20, 07:16 PM
For Bad Luck I might have to enter a silly class, since that's the only idea I have...

Octopusapult
2013-03-21, 09:28 PM
10 days left and Astronomer is leading with 9 points. I'm excited... :smallbiggrin:

Temotei
2013-03-21, 10:51 PM
10 days left and Astronomer is leading with 9 points. I'm excited... :smallbiggrin:

We've had bigger comebacks. :smallwink:

sirpercival
2013-03-21, 10:53 PM
We've had bigger comebacks. :smallwink:

Are you rooting against me?? Lol.

I have to say, both Deiologist and Arcane Engineer are fab classes, and if one or both manages to leapfrog Astronomer it'll be well deserved.

Where are we up to with the next topic? Still a 3- or 5-way tie?

Octopusapult
2013-03-21, 11:04 PM
We've had bigger comebacks. :smallwink:

That's why I'm excited. If someone else pulls through it'll be the underdog win of the decade. Century even.

Temotei
2013-03-21, 11:29 PM
Are you rooting against me?? Lol.

Me? No. Neverrrrrrr. :smalltongue:

But actually, all of the classes are good. I'd be happy with any one winning.

Even if it means you get YET ANOTHER KNEECAP. :smallamused: Going to run out at this rate...

{table=head]Theme|Votes|Voters
Heroes of Note|4|sirpercival, Bozwevial, Drammor, sengmeng
Something Bad Luck|2|Amechra, Octopusapult
Slack and Hash (food)|0|-
Madness|0|-
Inner Planes|0|-
Time|1|Quellian-dyrae
Alternate Magic|2|malonkey1, zetsu1919
NPCs|2|Pyromancer999, Morph Bark[/table]

sengmeng
2013-03-22, 02:50 PM
You know, I actually forgot that Heroes of Note was my idea. I guess I should at least support my own baby. I officially cast my vote for Heroes of Note as the next theme.

sirpercival
2013-03-22, 02:54 PM
Temo, do you think it'll be confusing to have both music-based classes and "ancient heroes"-based classes in the same contest?

Temotei
2013-03-22, 11:45 PM
Temo, do you think it'll be confusing to have both music-based classes and "ancient heroes"-based classes in the same contest?

Good point.

Perhaps the theme will be ancient heroes, but if you feel like making a music-based class, it should involve those ancient heroes in the primary class feature(s) (anointed heritor-style stuff, maybe). So, basically, ancient heroes is the theme. :smalltongue:

sirpercival
2013-03-22, 11:50 PM
Good point.

Perhaps the theme will be ancient heroes, but if you feel like making a music-based class, it should involve those ancient heroes in the primary class feature(s) (anointed heritor-style stuff, maybe). So, basically, ancient heroes is the theme. :smalltongue:

...meh. I was set to make the Percussionist... I don't suppose Keith Moon counts as an ancient hero?

Temotei
2013-03-23, 12:25 AM
...meh. I was set to make the Percussionist... I don't suppose Keith Moon counts as an ancient hero?

Or we could make it only musically-based classes if everyone would rather have that.

How about everyone votes for either way right now, so even if it doesn't win, we can pick next contest? :smallsmile:

And if it does win, we can do the other next contest if everyone is cool with that. :smallamused:

Octopusapult
2013-03-23, 10:43 AM
Or we could make it only musically-based classes if everyone would rather have that.

How about everyone votes for either way right now, so even if it doesn't win, we can pick next contest? :smallsmile:

And if it does win, we can do the other next contest if everyone is cool with that. :smallamused:

You want to start a new contest before this one finishes the vote tally? (which I'm ok with.)

malonkey1
2013-03-23, 12:09 PM
Nah, we're just deciding the theme of the next.

sengmeng
2013-03-25, 12:05 PM
Or we could make it only musically-based classes if everyone would rather have that.

How about everyone votes for either way right now, so even if it doesn't win, we can pick next contest? :smallsmile:

And if it does win, we can do the other next contest if everyone is cool with that. :smallamused:

Well, my intention for the suggestion (and what I interpreted it as when I voted for it) was that it was based on music. Also, I think making "ancient heroes" so close on the heels of "movie heroes" would not give us much variety, and there isn't all that much variety in ancient heroes anyway. Robin Hood is a rogue-ranger type, Merlin is a wizard, and then we have a bunch of bruisers: King Arthur, Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Achilles, Samson, Hercules, and tiny bit of guile or trickery based heroes, and maybe Theseus who was still a fighter but more of a dexterity-based one. Yeah, King Arthur and Achilles won't be the same, but will they be different enough?

malonkey1
2013-03-27, 06:32 PM
You know, I was looking at some of the old Incentive Comics from OoTS, and I was thinking, maybe sometime we should do a "Mis-Spelled" themed contest. Rouges, sneak-attackers based on the color Red, Sourcer, the Wikipedian Paladin, etc.