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Xzeno
2012-10-02, 06:21 PM
Right so I finally decided to make a thread about this. I'm generally extremely hesitant to ask a question that strikes me as too much along the lines of "Let me tell you about my campaign setting", and this thread is in that category. However, I have a logistically focused concern about the way I'm depicting a culture in my campaign setting.

So first, I'll tell you the required details: there is a culture in this setting we will call "elves" because it is the modern state of the civilization from which elves originate. Not only elves live in it, and most elves in the world live in other civilizations/cultures for reasons that will become clear.

The basic concept is taking the notion of hippie elves and running with it. Far. Like many fantasy elves, they're not into hurting nature. The difference is, these elves won't do it at all. They cannot:
-Kill animals for food or other goods.
-Kill or harm plants for food or other products.

Okay, pretty normal stuff. But they can't do those things, like, at all. To put it in perspective, they can't farm. They can't till the ground (because that kills or harms plants and bugs) and they can't damage vegetables and root crops by harvesting them. A vegetarian diet just won't cut it. Their sole source of food is fruit (eating fruit is allowed because that doesn't harm the tree) and the only method of increasing food production is no kill cropping: sprinkling fruit seeds on the ground and hoping for the best.

They can eat meat and make animal products -- if they find a super fresh dead animal. But really, the likelihood of finding a dead animal in a usable state is slim to none, especially considering that they can't kill or evict bugs that may be feeding on it. Realistically, their only source of meat is dead humanoids, either from their own groups or from battles, and that's not a reliable source.

So basically, here's the question: How the heck do these elves ever do anything? They can eat and... that's about it. What do they wear? They can hardly make clothes. They obviously won't trade in support of industries they find ethically intolerable. Are they all nudists? Where do they live? What sort of dwellings can they hope to construct?

A lot of (read: all) of these issues can be solved with magic, obviously. Given the system (3.5 D&D), there's no reason they shouldn't just live in a flying fortress made of force and trip create food traps for their meals. But, darn it, that's no fun. Their ethical extremes lose all purpose if they can be so easily addressed. For that reason, I'd like to limit magical work-arounds to their problems. Magic is certainly present and can help, but if it negates the hardships induced by a particular ethic, that ethic might as well not be there, because that just isn't very compelling to me. A group of people trying to use magic to avoid harming the world would be cool, but it's not these elves. I'm not against them using magic, I just don't want it to detract from the social impact if their lifestyle choices.

Now, I do accept some magic handwaving. Elves need bows as far as I'm concerned, and I'm perfectly aware that sticks found off the ground is not adequate for a bowmaking industry. But if anyone has a better idea for that, thanks.

So help me out, Playground: How can we keep these guys from dying cold, naked and hungry while a) observing their cultural stipulations and b) avoiding unfun magical problem solving.

And also if you feel so moved, feel free to make general commentary on how such a group would most efficiently exist and the logical consequences of their culture. Thank you, as always, for your insightful commentary on games and gaming.

snoopy13a
2012-10-02, 06:39 PM
They can get milk from cows or goats, and they can get wool from sheep. They could also keep bees for honey. I realize vegans won't eat animal products, but you didn't specify that these elves were vegans.

Jeraa
2012-10-02, 06:57 PM
With the limitations you've imposed, any group of these elves would have to be very small. There simply isn't any way to support a decent number of elves this way without magic (or outside support, like other people supplying them food/goods).

Just how many elves need to be supported? If the group is small enough, theft of what they need could also be a possibility.

Kitten Champion
2012-10-02, 07:33 PM
The key point is their philosophical rejection of harming nature in any way. So, what about the unnatural? Even if they're inedible, monsters are likely to be numerous and large with hides to tan and bones to fashion into weapons and tools. They'd be pretty badass looking Elves too.

As for fruit, well, you could mix magic with horticulture to produce far more prolific supplies in a great deal more variety than we'd have here.

Silk is also a possible luxury they could pursue, for those who aren't keen on monster hides.

Saidoro
2012-10-02, 07:35 PM
They don't... Not with the restrictions you've set.
Although, I suppose if you're willing to to subvert things a bit you could cobble something together. Make them a highly aggressive race in a state of constant warfare with absolutely everything else: they kill their enemies, eat their flesh and make clothes and weapons from their skin and bones. Give them strange and terrible magics, inescapable torture-houses where other sentients are bred and slaughtered as chattel and a warrior culture where a person's worth is valued only by how effective they are at removing "despoilers" from the world. And most importantly, give them an absolute and unshakable belief that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Basically replace hippy with militant hippy/ecowarrior/psychopath.

EDIT: Kitten Champion's suggestion is also good if you'd rather a path which wouldn't end in every other nation uniting to destroy them, a race which spends their time hunting down gibbering mouthers and making them into hats would fit your criteria.

Eldan
2012-10-02, 07:42 PM
The key point is their philosophical rejection of harming nature in any way. So, what about the unnatural? Even if they're inedible, monsters are likely to be numerous and large with hides to tan and bones to fashion into weapons and tools. They'd be pretty badass looking Elves too.

As for fruit, well, you could mix magic with horticulture to produce far more prolific supplies in a great deal more variety than we'd have here.

Silk is also a possible luxury they could pursue, for those who aren't keen on monster hides.

So they would mainly eat undead and aberrations...
Maybe get them some regenerating monstrosity, that they could cut into leather and meat?

The LOBster
2012-10-02, 07:50 PM
@Kitten Champion: Monsters, while not natural by our standards, could be considered natural by those who live in a magical world. If you're solely talking about Aberrations, then I think that eating or even wearing something like that would have very... Disturbing side effects. Eating Outsiders could possibly lead to being possessed by the demon or devil you just ate or turned into a nice leather jacket. That just leaves the decidedly unnatural constructs, and I'm pretty sure that Warforged are only tasty to Rust Monsters.

Also, silk is produced from boiling silkworms alive in their coccoons, so... I don't think they'd be making silk.

Sodalite
2012-10-02, 08:02 PM
A quick note, the flower of a tree is, technically speaking, an individual organism. An organism engineered by the tree solely to produce gametes and which in turn eventually may become fruit, but an independent organism none the less, though I suppose it's possible that these elves simply aren't aware of this.

That doesn't mention parasites, of course, which their bodies will attack automatically, unless they have a race wide case of immunodeficiency, which actually goes along with the idea that they might live in a naturally sterile, or at least almost sterile, environment, where their impact on nature can reduced to a minimum.

Also, on the current matter of what types of creature they might eat, it's entirely possible that every one of these elves receives something akin to Tomb-Tainted Soul from the consumption of undead, which in turn implies they might migrate towards areas plagued by such. Also, cults of trolls who willingly sacrifice flesh to elves seems like a pretty unique possible quirk.

Fiery Diamond
2012-10-02, 08:02 PM
Furthermore, with regards to milking (and possibly shearing), that's only not-harm for a certain value of not-harm. It depends on what they consider harm. There is a certain real-world organization that advocates not harming animals which I shall not name so as to avoid running afoul of board rules which ran a campaign a while ago trying to get people to drink beer instead of milk because "oh those poor cows." Granted, subsistence milking by hand is a lot less of an issue than modern commercial milking practices, but the point still stands about the ambiguity of "not harming."

Eldan
2012-10-02, 08:08 PM
Also, cults of trolls who willingly sacrifice flesh to elves seems like a pretty unique possible quirk.

Hah. Now that's a new take on society. Every elven tribe has it's two or three food trolls. Highly revered, fiercely protected, and ritually butchered a few times a day.

nedz
2012-10-02, 08:14 PM
They can eat cheese.
They can also bleed animals and consume the blood, possibly in the form of a sausage.

What about Fish ? I've known lots of vegetarians who eat fish (yes I know, but true none the less).

Elves can be viewed as spirit type creatures, perhaps they consume some sort of 'life energy' ?

Maybe they photosynthesise ?

Riverdance
2012-10-02, 08:26 PM
What happens when an animal attacks them? A housecat may be able to kill a commoner, but at least the commoner would be able to fight back. In this scenario all the elf could do is run away. Or did you mean that they are only forbidden to kill animals for food.


They can eat cheese.
They can also bleed animals and consume the blood, possibly in the form of a sausage.

What about Fish ? I've known lots of vegetarians who eat fish (yes I know, but true none the less).

Elves can be viewed as spirit type creatures, perhaps they consume some sort of 'life energy' ?

Maybe they photosynthesise ?

Cheese is good, so long as you don't use rennet, and someone else mentioned honey, which can also be made into mead. Nuts should also be considered as a parallel to fruit. Blood drinking though? Hmm...
Although technically it was specified that they can't "kill" animals, the overall concept is stated as being that they don't like hurting them, and I think bleeding them out repeatedly for sustenance counts as hurting.

Weirdlet
2012-10-02, 08:38 PM
You might want to look at real-world Jainism for an example of how people live while trying to abide by just those principals.

Pokonic
2012-10-02, 08:45 PM
Go the extreme omivore route: Elves eat most things that would not go under the "inorganic" catagory. They suck out marrow and can munch on carron. A dead deer is a valuable source of meat even if a pack of wolves got it first. A dead bear's moldering fat? Chewy, but pliable. Lost human children? For the less moral, there fair game. Tree bark is like jerky, and live wood, while taboo, is like steak.


Before one says "how do they live on rotting matter and other nasty crap", I say Magic. To be exact, ties to nature. The only thing they do not eat are fellow tribe members, who are buried in the clans tree groves with a tree seedling planted on top of the earthen grave.

toapat
2012-10-02, 09:34 PM
So they would mainly eat undead and aberrations...
Maybe get them some regenerating monstrosity, that they could cut into leather and meat?

hey!, there is one of those, its called the Tarrasque

but anyway: lets run the wtf off the chart:

No male elves.

Sodalite
2012-10-02, 09:47 PM
I don't see how that's WTF. It just seems unrelated. How does there being no males solve any of their problems?

Hiro Protagonest
2012-10-02, 09:51 PM
hey!, there is one of those, its called the Tarrasque
I am now imagining the hippy elves with their bone spears and leather hides, good friends with trolls and the Tarrasque. :smallcool:

but anyway: lets run the wtf off the chart:

No male elves.

Hey, in Exalted, Creation was formed by the bonding of two beings that both identify as female (then again, as Primordials, they pretty much are beyond gender).

Amidus Drexel
2012-10-02, 10:03 PM
That doesn't mention parasites, of course, which their bodies will attack automatically, unless they have a race wide case of immunodeficiency, which actually goes along with the idea that they might live in a naturally sterile, or at least almost sterile, environment, where their impact on nature can reduced to a minimum.


Well, immunodeficiency would help explain their lower constitution.

toapat
2012-10-02, 10:13 PM
I don't see how that's WTF. It just seems unrelated. How does there being no males solve any of their problems?

it doesnt, thats why


I am now imagining the hippy elves with their bone spears and leather hides, good friends with trolls and the Tarrasque. :smallcool:

yep

Kitten Champion
2012-10-02, 10:48 PM
@Kitten Champion: Monsters, while not natural by our standards, could be considered natural by those who live in a magical world. If you're solely talking about Aberrations, then I think that eating or even wearing something like that would have very... Disturbing side effects. Eating Outsiders could possibly lead to being possessed by the demon or devil you just ate or turned into a nice leather jacket. That just leaves the decidedly unnatural constructs, and I'm pretty sure that Warforged are only tasty to Rust Monsters.

Also, silk is produced from boiling silkworms alive in their coccoons, so... I don't think they'd be making silk.

Magic silk then!

You could invent the taboos as you want, I can see a whole host of creatures not meeting their "natural" standards besides Eldrich Abominations. It would mean you could actually play an Elf in this setting, while keeping the zaniness. I think it would be fun, terrifying Elves clad in the skins, sinews, and bones of their most deadly enemies, delicately stepping aside for ants blocking their path and weeping at the sight of a fallen oaks.

They'd be somewhere between Dark Sun's Elves and Tolkien's too-good-for-this-sinful-world creations.

J-H
2012-10-02, 10:57 PM
Look into Permaculture - specifically, look at the concept of a food forest. There are food forests that are hundreds of years old.

The elves can still keep domesticated animals, right? A chicken in captivity will have a longer, healthier, happier life than one in the wild, and it'd eat bugs either way.
Same applies for cattle. This allows them to have eggs and dairy products, and thus a reasonable supply of protein and some fats.

When their domesticated animals die of old age, they can still be processed - even if the meat is tough, it can be stewed until tender, and all of the bones can be used to make several batches of broth, which will be high in protein, calcium, etc. Refrigeration will be an issue, though

For the plants - It's actually bad for fruit trees, tomato plants, etc. to have too much produce on them. It impedes their ability to grow and be healthy and produce fully developed fruit... so if they really care about the plants, they will take care of them - including managing them via judicious pruning.


Option 2
Your elves have greenish skins and are photosynthetic.

Saidoro
2012-10-02, 11:32 PM
Since we seem to have moved on to regenerating creatures this is relevant (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?261519-D-amp-Dish-The-city-built-around-the-tarrasque.).

Blightedmarsh
2012-10-02, 11:48 PM
What about fire?

They can't strip mine. Mining the old fasioned way causes problems with acid mine water. This rules out coal (and metal).

They can chop down trees and you try to find dead would that isnt covered in wooldices: you won't. This rules out wood.

They are left with magic, bone, dung (which may or may not be edible for a given value of edible), peat, oil and gas.

Knaight
2012-10-02, 11:51 PM
Regarding food - the obvious case here is food that has fallen on the ground. They don't even need to pick fruits, there is the option to only use those that fall naturally, which gets fruits, nuts, and a few other things. If they have plains, this includes grain crops, as the grains do naturally fall off eventually, and can be scattered without burying them, followed by hoping for the best. Similarly, branches that fall during storms and similar could well be fair game. They won't be good for bows, but clubs and such are doable even without magic (they won't be very good clubs, but they will be clubs). As for fibers, consider wild sheep that broke off from a domestic herd. They would still have the wool of domestic sheep, and not the short wool of non-domesticated sheep; sheep will lose some of their wool every time they walk past a bush, and bush-removed wool could be collected for fibers. It's a slow process, which implies that clothing will be minimal, and cordage will be largely avoided - though, concerning arms, you can make a sling out of bush-wool.

Buildings are more difficult, but again, what is needed is there. Provided that the temperatures are consistently higher, which is basically needed for the sort of lush area for this to even be survivable, dwellings could be made of fallen sticks woven together with wool, with large leaves used atop them. Added to this, with a really low population growth dwellings are one of the things that makes sense to have magic applied, which means there could potentially be a few stone buildings mixed in with all the rest, with really old enclaves being largely stone.

Then there is the matter of captured goods - potentially, these elves could be attacked by those who see them as easy prey. If they very much aren't they could capture some goods that they would never make. What this would mean is that heirlooms would develop, of things vastly beyond their own. Metal cookware would be practically miraculous, there's fully made sets of clothing, there's various containers that the elves would have difficulties getting naturally, so on and so forth. As such, these should be distributed among the various enclaves, and taken care of extremely carefully. Repairing these objects is another task undertaken by the occasional mage, and if anything is enchanted, it's something captured. This also connects to the military - elite elven warriors use ancient bows and ancient swords, probably enchanted a long time ago, in styles no longer in use and bearing the artistic styles of ancient peoples. These warriors would form the basis for stories of great elven works, in their wondrous weaponry, their fancy, likely enchanted clothing (it can be enchanted if they only get it rarely) and armor, etc. Said stories juxtapose nicely against the reality for most, which is that of little clothing, primitive clubs, primitive spears, and slings.

That said - population density is going to need to be really, really low to pull this off. Still, this leaves elves that dwell in forests and plains that have slowly accumulated fruit trees, nut trees, and grain crops; using primitive clubs, primitive spears, and slings from gathered wood and gathered wool. Occasionally they will have something technological, in which metallurgy or ceramics or similar was needed for its creation, and much of this stuff would be very old and very well preserved, as well as magical. It sounds evocative to me, and certainly manages the coolness factor well enough.

Serpentine
2012-10-03, 02:18 AM
Some thoughts (many of which have already been suggested):

- Fruit. Keep in mind that this includes a lot of stuff we call vegetables, like chilis (possible non-harmful defence?), pumpkins, and so on.

- Standard domesticated animals. There isn't anything in the OP to suggest that they can't have any domesticated animals at all, just that they can't kill or hurt them. This means, as mentioned several times, that wool, milk and eggs can be available. It also means that they can have fresh meat every now and then, as an animal dies of natural causes. Which brings me to:

- Meat. You touched on possible cannibalism, and I've just raised the possibility of eating naturally-dead domesticated animals. There have been some real-world cultures that incorporated cannibalism as part of their belief and social structure. It might be interesting to have something similar for these elves: the consumption of the beloved dead is a major part of their burial rituals. Watch out for Kuru, though.

- Non-standard domesticated animals. As mentioned, traditional silk is out. But what about all those monstrous spiders out there? Some of them are even intelligent. What if these elves are skilled spider-silk weavers?

- Plant manipulation. Maybe these elves have bred one or more trees to supply them with what they need without harming the tree itself - perhaps a tree that, with some physical manipulation (e.g. tying the branches a certain way), grows branches in a bow shape, and then naturally - and harmlessly - drops them; eucalyptus trees, for one, naturally drop their branches on a regular basis. Then maybe they can carve the now-dead wood.

- Natural paper. Have a look at paperbark trees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melaleuca_quinquenervia). It naturally sheds its thin, paperlike bark (thus the name), which is then useful for writing, building, and maybe even wearing. Which makes me think of...

- Animals that shed their skin/fur/feathers. Maybe they keep around a lot of reptiles and birds, or have a deal going with a dragon or two, or sneak into the lairs of giant lizards. However they do it, shed materials could be useful.

- Metal and stoneworking. If they can't work with large amounts of good quality wood and leather, maybe they become skilled at working inorganic materials. I don't believe it would necessarily be harmful to acquire metal and certain rock, but if that's a concern then gold and gems are still an option: you can pan for gold in streams, and amber is easily found on certain beaches; that's just what I know off the top of my head, but I'm sure there's similar harm-free ways of getting other valuable materials.

You might like to have a look at certain real-world religions that demand complete non-harm, see how they deal with it.

nedz
2012-10-06, 05:42 AM
Blood drinking though? Hmm...
Although technically it was specified that they can't "kill" animals, the overall concept is stated as being that they don't like hurting them, and I think bleeding them out repeatedly for sustenance counts as hurting.

Its possible to bleed an animal without causing pain, and as long as you don't take too much the animal will recover without any ill effect.
This is actually done by some pastoralist societies IRL.

Yora
2012-10-06, 06:51 AM
But as a means of last resort, if I am not mistaken. When your camels can go for two more days without water but you won't make it to the next oasis without water, this is one emergency measure to keep everyone alive.

The idea of not harming plants for food is a weird one. How does one harm a plant?
And more important, why is it okay to allow animals to eat grass and leaves, but why isn't it okay for people?

With eating meat one could say with justification that some animals can't survive without meat and they don't have the intelligence to realize they have a choice to kill or not kill others, while people have means to be fed without killing animals for meat. But that alternative is plants! There is no alternative to plants. And even the most extreme vegan ascetics live with the fact that making food from plants always causes the death of bugs and bacteria.

nedz
2012-10-06, 07:16 AM
But as a means of last resort, if I am not mistaken. When your camels can go for two more days without water but you won't make it to the next oasis without water, this is one emergency measure to keep everyone alive.
I was thinking more of the Sahal where there are pastoralists who do this to their goats etc.


And even the most extreme vegan ascetics live with the fact that making food from plants always causes the death of bugs and bacteria.
Ignorance is bliss I suspect.

Yora
2012-10-06, 07:40 AM
No, there are some hardcore groups who always wear a net before their mouth and permanently sweep the floor before them when they walk to minimize any accidental harm to tiny creatures. They surely know that farming harms beings, yet they still continue living so they must eat something.

Xzeno
2012-10-06, 08:07 AM
Wow. Thanks guys. I really appreciate the diversity of the responses. Having some time to think about stuff, I'd like to address a few things, based largely on my vague inclinations and thoughts.

-One major issue that's been brought up is the domestication of animals. My first inclination would be to keep this to a minimum. After all, they are forbidden from performing harmful procedures. Don't you think sheering wool is harmful, particularly given that, thus far, the elves can't reliably generate heat sources? Furthermore, the elves can't impose restrictions on an animal's freedom.

That's not to say that one has to fence in an animal to make it domestic. Storing food at all would probably have them acquiring at least some cats. Free range chickens would remain present if they had a reliable food source.

So having thought about it, I think a small number of domestic animals is appropriate, so long as they aren't harmed or restricted. As for milking animals, I don't feel like I'm familiar enough with the milking of domesticated animals or the evolution thereof to make a call.

My concerns are twofold: 1, is milking painful or harmful in any way? Based on what I know, the answer is probably not. My second concern is that they might not have access to animals sufficiently domestic to produce milk for a population of humanoids as well as themselves? The concern is that, if the process of extracting dairy products ever harmed the animals that would eventually become domestic, the elves could have never instigated domestication. Of course, they could certainly steal (I mean, rescue) dairy cows from more normal civilizations.

Which brings us to our next topic: war and theft. First of all, let me say that everyone who suggested populations of warlike murder elves is awesome. I can't deny that that is a logical conclusion.

Having considered it, sure, they should be accepting of war. And yes, theft is possibly even good, granted that it harms the industry they view as unethical. However, I'm not sure they should go to war solely for the purpose of personal gain. If they won't hurt plants to eat, why would they hurt people?

If they're already at war though, and they have bodies and corpses... well, what are they gonna do? Just leave 'em? :smallbiggrin:

-Regenerating creatures and unnatural monsters: for the regenerating creatures, models that stressed the cooperative interaction of these groups are probably fine. Obviously, they can't hurt an unwilling regenerating creature. Perhaps I'll use some relationships with local trolls. That'd be pretty neat. Or a tendriculos, for plant matter. As for the Tarrasque, the issue there is that I might want to use it elsewhere in the setting, so I'd prefer not to tie it down, so to speak.

As for unnatural monsters, I'm gonna say hurting them for the purpose of food or industry is disallowed. MAYBE it could be okay to kill off unintelligent undead, based on the assumption that they aren't really alive and can't really feel pain. Maybe.

As far as specific responses go, I'm fond of Knaight's model of acquiring goods from other cultures. It does follow that these goods would be well taken care of, as well as the most obvious candidates for enchantment. Perhaps this could work well with Serpentine's suggestions regarding metal and stonecrafting. While I'd originally written off stone and metal as too hard to get, clay seems reasonably usable, and some stone is easy. I particularly like panning for gold, just because I like the idea of gold being the most abundant (albeit still rare) metal for these people.

Lastly, Yora has raised a concern: can they really avoid harming stuff? Even the all fruit diet hurts bugs and bacteria. That's true. They can't prevent it. They just do their best. I'll think about the cultural implications of that. As for different ethical standards for the actions of people and animals, I think that's a pretty normal cultural phenomenon.

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. Given the low, widespread population, I'm sure I'll be able to make use of most of these ideas in some form or another.

Belril Duskwalk
2012-10-06, 08:11 AM
The idea of not harming plants for food is a weird one. How does one harm a plant?
And more important, why is it okay to allow animals to eat grass and leaves, but why isn't it okay for people?

"The cow knows not the harm it does to the grass when it eats it. But to survive, the cow must eat and grass is what the cow eats, so the cow must live thus. But we, we are the true elves of the natural realm and we know the harm done to a plant when one eats it and so, we endeavor to do no harm upon our realms in our efforts to survive." -The Book of Elf, Chapter 7*
*Yeah, I just made that all up. Sometimes I go poetic

Anyway, as Serpentine points out, there are a lot of things that are, scientifically speaking, fruit that most people don't think of as fruit. Cucumbers, tomatoes, squash, zucchini etc.
If we're allowing for domestic animals, you can also get leather when the animal finally drops dead.

For additional clothing materials, it's worth pointing out that cotton is made of the seed-wrapping materials of the cotton plant. And if I understand it correctly, jute and hemp fabrics can be made from the stalk fibers of the plants after they have died. Now, wearing jute isn't going to be any picnic, but it beats nudity if the weather starts to get chilly.

J-H
2012-10-06, 08:55 AM
What's their take on wildlife management? The elves will end up reducing the population of other apex predators in their area (big cats, wolves, bears, etc) just through self-defense, and this will lead to a population boom in whatever the local equivalent of deer is. In the US, lack of predation on deer, elk, etc., actually leads to an unsustainable population boom that ends with a chunk of the population slowly starving to death each winter... unless hunting keeps the population down to where it's within the carrying capacity of the land.

Is it more moral in Elfland to kill a deer quickly, or to know that it will starve to death slowly before winter's end?

GnomeGninjas
2012-10-06, 09:07 AM
Raise berries. I don't think it counts as "harming" since plants with edible berries have them so that creatures can eat them and spread the seeds. Assuming these elves don't dispose of there waste in landfills or sewers and dispose of it in nature then they will help the plants by spreading the seeds and they will have food to eat.

nedz
2012-10-06, 09:18 AM
The trick with milking is to wean the calf early, so the calf doesn't need the milk. The other trick with milking is to warm your hands on the cow's back first :smallsmile:

It is possible to glean wool. Sheep (and Goats, Llamas, etc.) usually moult at the end of winter. You can find wool scattered on thorn bushes, or even pluck it from the coat in spring. The latter trick is standard for Alpaca I think.

Regenerating creatures reminds me of the Chickentroll. Half Chicken/Half Troll: you can chop off a leg and it will grow a new one :smallbiggrin: Much more useful than an Owlbear.

Serpentine
2012-10-06, 09:34 AM
-One major issue that's been brought up is the domestication of animals. My first inclination would be to keep this to a minimum. After all, they are forbidden from performing harmful procedures. Don't you think sheering wool is harmful, particularly given that, thus far, the elves can't reliably generate heat sources?No, not at all. Especially not if you're somewhere hot (Australian sheep would never live out the summer if they weren't shawn), and even if you're somewhere temperate, I believe the usual practice is to sheer them in late spring when it's warm, and let them grow it through the rest of the year so by the time winter rolls round they're nice and warm again.

Furthermore, the elves can't impose restrictions on an animal's freedom.They would, I think, view it more as cooperation or custodianship. For something like sheep I'd imagine they'd have shepherds rather than fences (not least because fences were a very late institution), and I think they'd view those shepherds as bodyguards for the sheep rather than their keepers. At the end of the day, they'd usher them into the enclosure not because they're property, but for their protection. And with the presence of magic, they could use that to persuade them rather than herd them.

As for milking animals, I don't feel like I'm familiar enough with the milking of domesticated animals or the evolution thereof to make a call.It should be doable. I understand, for instance, that it's actually very uncomfortable for a dairy cow to go unmilked.
There is also, incidentally, the possibility of milking other creatures, maybe even the elves themselves: maybe they help drive a particularly successful wetnurse industry in a neighbouring civilisation, or their own women continue milking themselves after their children wean and share it with everyone. And actually, children continuing to suckle far later than other peoples would probably fit in quite well - it extends the period of the innocent doing no harm to anything else for a fair while, and can also make a pretty interesting cultural feature.

Lastly, Yora has raised a concern: can they really avoid harming stuff? Even the all fruit diet hurts bugs and bacteria. That's true. They can't prevent it. They just do their best. I'll think about the cultural implications of that.It could be a potentially interesting complication if you throw in different interpretations of that basis. I forsee, for example, three different potential sects:
1. The sort you're more or less working out here. They keep some domesticated animals and cultivate crops, and they accept that sometimes harming things is unavoidable for all they do their best to avoid it. Maybe they have exceptions sometimes, even if it's just self-defense or the defense of an innocent. They milk animals and they shear sheep and they have deals with willing regenerating creatures, and so on. Fairly specific definitions of what constitutes "harm", a bit of flexibility, and some practicality.

2. The extremists. No domestication, no cultivation, they have to feel terrible about every bug they accidentally kill - even the ones they can't see, that they just assume are there. No taking flesh even from a willing individual. Their more powerful members might believe that others should follow their ways as well - declaring wars or engaging in sabeutage, which will be interesting without the ability to physically harm anyone, and possibly even crueller: mental attacks, mindrape, imprisonment, that sort of thing. An extremely broad definition of harm, to which they have an extreme devotion. They certainly wouldn't trade with others in case they'd harmed animals in the course of the goods' production.

3. The "Technically..."ers. They work to the letter of the rules, but not the spirit. If they didn't see the bugs, then technically they couldn't avoid stepping on them - maybe they have a habit of walking without looking at the ground. Technically, if they weren't directly the ones that killed an animal, then it's fair game - maybe they hunt with dogs, and make sure it's the dogs that do the killing. Technically bloodletting isn't harmful if you can do it reasonably painlessly and the animal suffers no health impacts. Technically, it's not their fault if they have to kill an animal in self-defence. These guys would quite possibly have some apparently quite bizarre customs, many more lip-service, to make sure that they technically weren't responsible of any harm, to the satisfaction of their own definition of "harm". They'd be very flexible (although potentially oddly strict in their adherence to custom), open to trade (possibly with certain attached rituals: perhaps they have to ask a specific question of the other party about whether anything was harmed in the proces of the goods' production, and they have to give a specific response, and regardless of the truth the elves can take the goods satisfied that technically it's not their fault if there was harm), and with a very specific and narrow definition of harm.

Just a thought.

Eldan
2012-10-06, 09:42 AM
I like the Techniclars.

"I didn't know there was a bear in that cave that would attack me so I would have to kill it in self-defence! Honestly!"

Enix18
2012-10-06, 10:24 AM
Have you ever read the Ender's Game series by Orson Scott Card? In it, there's a race of tribal aliens called the Pequeninos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pequeninos) that might be able to offer some inspiration.

While their whole concept is quite interesting, the most pertinent aspect is how they live in symbiosis with their environment. Every so often, a particularly respectable male of a tribe will be chosen to undergo a ritualistic vivisection. The male is cut open and disemboweled while conscious, entirely of his own volition (as this process is actually considered quite an honour). A tree is grown from the earth on which the male was killed, and the ritual infuses his consciousness into the new plant.

These trees--which they call “fathertrees”--are the ancestors of the tribe ascended to a higher form. The souls of those who have achieved this form are able to communicate telepathically with each other, making the forests in which they live a massive network of the collective memories of all the greatest members of their tribes.

The ascended are also capable of manipulating their tree forms in a limited fashion. They communicate with the tribe in a special ritual where a few of the tribesman will rhythmically beat on their trunks with sticks and the fathertrees will change the size and shape of their interior spaces to produce different sounds, which are interpreted by the elders of the tribe. Since the tribe does not harm the trees and thus have no way to harvest wood, the fathertrees will often willingly expel parts of themselves to provide the materials for shelter and weaponry and whatever else might be needed. Their limited ability to manipulate their form even allows them to shape the bits that they offer up to the tribe--if it’s a time of dire warfare, for example, the trees could produce fully-formed spear shafts out of their own mass, obviating the need for many stone or metal tools.

Now tell me that "aliens" couldn't easily be re-fluffed to "elves".

Kornaki
2012-10-06, 01:27 PM
If the concern with eating dead animals is maggot infestation/general rotting, they could go on long hunting trips where they just find an old animal, and follow it for weeks until it dies so they can then bring it back

Blightedmarsh
2012-10-06, 01:34 PM
No, not at all. Especially not if you're somewhere hot (Australian sheep would never live out the summer if they weren't shawn), and even if you're somewhere temperate, I believe the usual practice is to sheer them in late spring when it's warm, and let them grow it through the rest of the year so by the time winter rolls round they're nice and warm again.
They would, I think, view it more as cooperation or custodianship. For something like sheep I'd imagine they'd have shepherds rather than fences (not least because fences were a very late institution), and I think they'd view those shepherds as bodyguards for the sheep rather than their keepers. At the end of the day, they'd usher them into the enclosure not because they're property, but for their protection. And with the presence of magic, they could use that to persuade them rather than herd them.
It should be doable. I understand, for instance, that it's actually very uncomfortable for a dairy cow to go unmilked.
There is also, incidentally, the possibility of milking other creatures, maybe even the elves themselves: maybe they help drive a particularly successful wetnurse industry in a neighbouring civilisation, or their own women continue milking themselves after their children wean and share it with everyone. And actually, children continuing to suckle far later than other peoples would probably fit in quite well - it extends the period of the innocent doing no harm to anything else for a fair while, and can also make a pretty interesting cultural feature.
It could be a potentially interesting complication if you throw in different interpretations of that basis. I forsee, for example, three different potential sects:
1. The sort you're more or less working out here. They keep some domesticated animals and cultivate crops, and they accept that sometimes harming things is unavoidable for all they do their best to avoid it. Maybe they have exceptions sometimes, even if it's just self-defense or the defense of an innocent. They milk animals and they shear sheep and they have deals with willing regenerating creatures, and so on. Fairly specific definitions of what constitutes "harm", a bit of flexibility, and some practicality.

2. The extremists. No domestication, no cultivation, they have to feel terrible about every bug they accidentally kill - even the ones they can't see, that they just assume are there. No taking flesh even from a willing individual. Their more powerful members might believe that others should follow their ways as well - declaring wars or engaging in sabeutage, which will be interesting without the ability to physically harm anyone, and possibly even crueller: mental attacks, mindrape, imprisonment, that sort of thing. An extremely broad definition of harm, to which they have an extreme devotion. They certainly wouldn't trade with others in case they'd harmed animals in the course of the goods' production.

3. The "Technically..."ers. They work to the letter of the rules, but not the spirit. If they didn't see the bugs, then technically they couldn't avoid stepping on them - maybe they have a habit of walking without looking at the ground. Technically, if they weren't directly the ones that killed an animal, then it's fair game - maybe they hunt with dogs, and make sure it's the dogs that do the killing. Technically bloodletting isn't harmful if you can do it reasonably painlessly and the animal suffers no health impacts. Technically, it's not their fault if they have to kill an animal in self-defence. These guys would quite possibly have some apparently quite bizarre customs, many more lip-service, to make sure that they technically weren't responsible of any harm, to the satisfaction of their own definition of "harm". They'd be very flexible (although potentially oddly strict in their adherence to custom), open to trade (possibly with certain attached rituals: perhaps they have to ask a specific question of the other party about whether anything was harmed in the proces of the goods' production, and they have to give a specific response, and regardless of the truth the elves can take the goods satisfied that technically it's not their fault if there was harm), and with a very specific and narrow definition of harm.

Just a thought.

There is absolutely no reason why you cant use all three in the same society. You could have the bulk of the population as the balanced path, they use the tried and tested realistic method of survival. Then you can have the extreme aesthetes who live as hermits, monks and sages and survive on a diet of water, spirituality and magic and then you can have the more secular technicist who just pay lip service. Finally rounded off with baelnorns (who don't have to eat at all being dead) and murder hobo elves who are either extreme zealots or use zealotry as an excuse for banditry.

Yora
2012-10-06, 01:40 PM
It should be doable. I understand, for instance, that it's actually very uncomfortable for a dairy cow to go unmilked.
It will eventually kill them because of infections. These animals are bred to a state where they can't survive without permanent care. Wild cattle don't have that problem.

Coidzor
2012-10-06, 01:47 PM
To put it in perspective, they can't farm. They can't till the ground (because that kills or harms plants and bugs)

If they can't harm plants at all then they certainly can't have any kind of settlement and they can't easily move in groups larger than a handful, even if you do allow them to walk on grass.

Really, they seem more like they'd belong in the undercity of some other race, living as undertakers and waste disposal than something that would dwell in nature. Mostly make me think of the carrion-eater hominids from Ringworld.

Blightedmarsh
2012-10-06, 01:47 PM
I am one of these people who define much of the work of animal breeders as harm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ruby-Spaniel-Red-Clover.jpg

I do not think that these elves would create such a thing as dependent livestock.

Ravens_cry
2012-10-06, 01:51 PM
I always thought of elves as been somewhat intrinsically magical, so in a homebrew setting where magic goes away for a time, their civilisation pretty much collapsed as their older members died of old age. This was bad as who needs written records when you can simply have someone who remembers?

Coidzor
2012-10-06, 01:55 PM
I always thought of elves as been somewhat intrinsically magical, so in a homebrew setting where magic goes away for a time, their civilisation pretty much collapsed as their older members died of old age. This was bad as who needs written records when you can simply have someone who remembers?

So their older members died of old age as soon as magic went away or were just too dense to transmit any information before they passed on/were too busy with the whole collapse of the civilization because of its magic dependence? :smallconfused:

Ravens_cry
2012-10-06, 02:15 PM
So their older members died of old age as soon as magic went away or were just too dense to transmit any information before they passed on/were too busy with the whole collapse of the civilization because of its magic dependence? :smallconfused:
It was basically like the scene from The Last Crusade, only slightly slower. By the time everyone realized what was happening, the eldest had become senile and died swiftly after.

Serpentine
2012-10-06, 09:19 PM
I am one of these people who define much of the work of animal breeders as harm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ruby-Spaniel-Red-Clover.jpg

I do not think that these elves would create such a thing as dependent livestock.They don't have to create them, but they might "liberate" them from those who did.

UserShadow7989
2012-10-06, 11:04 PM
There is absolutely no reason why you cant use all three in the same society. You could have the bulk of the population as the balanced path, they use the tried and tested realistic method of survival. Then you can have the extreme aesthetes who live as hermits, monks and sages and survive on a diet of water, spirituality and magic and then you can have the more secular technicist who just pay lip service. Finally rounded off with baelnorns (who don't have to eat at all being dead) and murder hobo elves who are either extreme zealots or use zealotry as an excuse for banditry.

I second this. One thing to keep in mind is that no matter how deeply ingrained a belief or law is in a culture, there will always be different interpretations and even a handful who flat out go against the mold. Having an entire race have the same beliefs and the same approach to them feels artificial and is fairly unrealistic without some outside, likely physical force. Not to say it can't be done, mind, just that having a little wiggle room creates a lot of opportunities for plots.

One way to run with this is have, rather than the race being a single nation or tribe, a few smaller ones that are separated by the differences in their beliefs that stick together mainly because they need to in order to survive without taking actions that violate their own views of the beliefs. Possibly have a very small outcast tribe that has broken the laws of the other groups, situated on the edge of the territory the majority of these elves call home, be it because they were disowned, kicked out, or even self-exiled themselves out of guilt.

There can also be variance in how much they tolerate others doing the things they don't believe in; some groups utterly refusing to interact with them while others being more receptive so long as they don't try to antagonize them or attack their beliefs. This could even be used to make some plot hooks- the extremist group has begun attacking their less extreme counterparts, who can't fight back besides what is needed to push the aggressors back without violating their beliefs, but don't want the war to continue. The Technicalists, look to outside help with the cavat of 'technically, I didn't tell them how to go about doing it- so if they proceed to take the violent route, it's not on us'.

On a side note: would another unreliable source of meat be from self-defense against predatory animals/monsters? Not a big help, but every little bit counts in a situation such as this.

Though I doubt they'd be the least bit happy about it, if the animal or monster has died through a genuine mistake on their part or through complete accident without anyone at fault, doing anything but make the most of it would be disrespectful to its sacrifice.

Besides that, a rampaging monster would likely kill and consume far more lives if left alone than if it was killed, though that again would rely on the exact specifics of the beliefs and their interpretations.

Kornaki
2012-10-07, 12:06 AM
Ok, if we can see the general problems with the structure of their society then some of then can too. The general population believes they thanks to their utter devotion their gods deliver bounties from time to time in the form of dead plants and animals. What's really happening is there is an underground cult that thinks the tradition of no harm is suicidal, and is willing to be fat more pragmatic. They don't want to just leave society though, since they have friends and family who still abide by these rules, so they operate in secret to leave these gifts from the gods

Blightedmarsh
2012-10-07, 02:10 AM
Ok, if we can see the general problems with the structure of their society then some of then can too. The general population believes they thanks to their utter devotion their gods deliver bounties from time to time in the form of dead plants and animals. What's really happening is there is an underground cult that thinks the tradition of no harm is suicidal, and is willing to be fat more pragmatic. They don't want to just leave society though, since they have friends and family who still abide by these rules, so they operate in secret to leave these gifts from the gods

I think it would be more realistic to have elven covert opps units that protect settlements or proactively hunt down specific threats. As this would be reprehensible to the population at large they act either as secrete societies or as deniable special forces. I think that if it where as bad as you describe this society would never have survived to begin with.

Oracle_Hunter
2012-10-07, 12:56 PM
So help me out, Playground: How can we keep these guys from dying cold, naked and hungry while a) observing their cultural stipulations and b) avoiding unfun magical problem solving.
They'd become vultures :smallbiggrin:

Aside from the limited co-operative farming (milking cows, sheering sheep) they would constantly be looking for dead animals to pick over for food and resources (hides, bones). They could still cook or preserve dead meat using deadwood and salt so it's not like they'd be forced to live off of fresh-kills.

The real problem is that they'd be obliterated by the first rival sentient culture to come through since they can't kill animals -- and people are animals. So you'd need some sort of "pragmatic ethicists" to make this work.

I second the idea of imposing Castes in this system depending on how "pure" their ideology. The Outcastes would be the warrior caste that protect the Caste Elves and have the highest standard of living due to hunting and industry. The lowest Caste would be the ones who live off of the refuse of the Outcastes (an animal killed by the Outcastes is no different than one killed by a wolf); the middle Caste would be shepherds and tend to various light-domesticated animals; the high Caste would eat nothing but fruit and be naked -- they'd probably be spellcasters.

endoperez
2012-10-07, 03:08 PM
I'd recommend going the "cause no permanent harm, but passing discomfort is okay" route. That allows wool, keeping animals fenced in, keeping other animals from eating their gardens, pruning trees, and so on. Eggs, fruit, milk and so on would be what they can eat daily. They might be able to grow some grain fields, if they did everything slowly and by hand.


What would these elves have that others do not? They could have a supernatural connection with nature. The predators would usually leave them alone, the predated would not run from them. These elves could walk into a herd of deer and pat their backs. A couple of "hunters" might follow an old deer around for days, keeping it company, knowing that it'd die soon. And when it died, they'd grab it up and have access to fresh meat available to them due to natural causes.

Add in magic, and they know which animals to follow, giving access to some meat and, more importantly, ability to harvest leather and other lasting animal products.

Also, the elves could use magic to make certain their actions do not harm insects or such. Imagine the players exploring a forest, and every now and then coming across an exceptionally beautiful glen, but every time the players go there they're chased away by a powerful necromantic, fear-inducing aura... And the only ones around are these elves who seem too good to be true... :smallwink:

Wood would also be available, not in an endless supply, but enough to explain where they get their tools. Whenever a storm passes by, it will cause havoc in the forest, the elves would be there and harvest the wood from the fallen trees.

toapat
2012-10-07, 05:04 PM
I'd recommend going the "cause no permanent harm, but passing discomfort is okay" route. That allows wool, keeping animals fenced in, keeping other animals from eating their gardens, pruning trees, and so on. Eggs, fruit, milk and so on would be what they can eat daily. They might be able to grow some grain fields, if they did everything slowly and by hand.


What would these elves have that others do not? They could have a supernatural connection with nature. The predators would usually leave them alone, the predated would not run from them. These elves could walk into a herd of deer and pat their backs. A couple of "hunters" might follow an old deer around for days, keeping it company, knowing that it'd die soon. And when it died, they'd grab it up and have access to fresh meat available to them due to natural causes.

Add in magic, and they know which animals to follow, giving access to some meat and, more importantly, ability to harvest leather and other lasting animal products.

Also, the elves could use magic to make certain their actions do not harm insects or such. Imagine the players exploring a forest, and every now and then coming across an exceptionally beautiful glen, but every time the players go there they're chased away by a powerful necromantic, fear-inducing aura... And the only ones around are these elves who seem too good to be true... :smallwink:

Wood would also be available, not in an endless supply, but enough to explain where they get their tools. Whenever a storm passes by, it will cause havoc in the forest, the elves would be there and harvest the wood from the fallen trees.

i still prefer the Domesticated Trolls and vegitized Tarrasque approach

nedz
2012-10-07, 05:28 PM
What would these elves have that others do not? They could have a supernatural connection with nature. The predators would usually leave them alone, the predated would not run from them. These elves could walk into a herd of deer and pat their backs. A couple of "hunters" might follow an old deer around for days, keeping it company, knowing that it'd die soon. And when it died, they'd grab it up and have access to fresh meat available to them due to natural causes.

I'm not sure that this is viable. In the wild; Wolves (or whatever the local predator is) would have taken the old deer long before it gets to this stage.

Steven
2012-10-07, 05:56 PM
As far as I can see you can't go much further than fanatical Jainism if you don't want magic to be used.

If you will allow magic then you can go further because you can have druids. These guys can talk to animals and awaken plants. An awakened tree could probably donate wood to the elves.

The biggest issue I have with this idea is that it's going to be hard to explain WHY they're like this.
If they were created by a god this way then wouldn't the god have made them able to survive by eating rocks or absorbing sunlight or what have you? If they were created by a god and the god expected them to eat meat and vegies then why would they, as an entire race, decide to stop doing that?
If they were supposed to eat only fruit why didn't the god make a tree that produced a fruit that provided all their nutritional needs and also shed leather like bark and dropped iron like branches?
If you don't have interventionist gods, or any gods at all, how did their entire race end up with such odd social conventions and how have they not been wiped out by the orcs, humans, dwarves or whatever next door? Or indeed the wolves, lions or other top predator since they can't really produce any decent weapons they would probably get killed off by any large powerful predator in the area even ruling out big bad magical monsters.

You might have a reason for it all figured out but as a player, reader or casual observer if this wasn't handled well it would be a major problem for me to accept. Especially as you've already ruled out magic as a hand wave.

Blightedmarsh
2012-10-08, 01:46 AM
It could be a divine form of self imposed challenge. A god twists a preexisting people into this just to see if he can get it to work without a thought to the hardships and suffering of the people.

Jack of Spades
2012-10-08, 03:12 AM
So, logistics are pretty much worked out at this point, but how do you plan to make it plausible that these people weren't destroyed or enslaved almost immediately after the other races discovered them?

I mean, each elf could be a master swordsman by human standards, but in the end that won't matter because the humans can support a larger, better equipped population. All it would take is one or two evil overlord types early on in history, and the elves would have been overrun and their lands would be owned by the more violent races. Unless they were geographically cut off, there's no way that a medieval elf race would be anything but slaves and servants with weird hangups. Sure, there'd be escapees and other outliers, but for the most part you'd be looking at one race filling out the entire bottom-most rung of the cultural ladder.

As described, it would be extremely easy for an evil PC to enslave the entire race themselves. All he would really have to do is get a horse and gain a knack for riding low to its back. The horse is part of nature, and therefore would make a very efficient morality-shield.

Alternatively, a handful of evil druids, casting Summon Nature's Ally and commanding the summons to corral but not attack the elves. Load them onto slave ships and go up and down the coast. Bam, millions in profit. The elves try to retaliate against you? Turn into a doe, run into the herd of deer that you keep outside your house for exactly this reason. A 16th level druid would be able to cast Animal Shapes on himself and his party for 16 hours. Twice per day.

These extreme hippy-elves are a bit too extreme to be capable of (independent) survival in the long term, in my opinion. But that's just my two cents.

Blightedmarsh
2012-10-08, 03:44 AM
Sihdee.

In Irish mythology the turtha de dannu where the gods of preceltic Ireland. Uniquely the immigrating mortals defeated the gods and drove them out of the land. As part of the treaties that ended the war the gods where given hollow hills (sihdee) to live in.

In this scenario the elves are faires who live in subterranean pocket dimension where time and space is answerable to their whims.

It may interest you to note that fairy animals would be semi-existant/immortal and could be consumed again and again.

Frozen_Feet
2012-10-08, 04:59 AM
Our elves are primarily scavengers. Logically, they need pretty hefty immune system to stomach what they need to survive. Lets amp that up a bit and say they can eat fruits and berries that are lethally poisonous to others. Like certain species of insects, their bodies store the toxins.

End result? Predators let elves be because eating them kills you.

We can even extend this to partly explain why they havent been conquered. Firstly, any place with elves still has most of its wildlife intact, including beasts and monsters that would gladly eat anyone else. Secondly, elves themselves could be immune to most diseases, but that doesn't mean they can't serve as carriers for them! Just being in the presence of elves could lead to catching a deadly plague. Remember how diseases carried by european invaders wreaked havoc among native americans? It's that in reverse. The would-be conquerors kill the first bunch of elves, laughing at these naive beings. They return home with their spoils of war - and next thing you know, it is THEIR civilization that ends up decimated. Cue legends of a blood curse befalling anyone who does violence on the fair folk, and anyone who could enslave the elves is too frightened to try.

As to why these elves exists? That s easy! Even a culture of humans could survive within the guidelimes proposed. So, once upon a time there was a small group of sapients who decided they'd do harm to no creature. Their lives became harsher than anyones', but they survived. In time, they mastered their new lifestyle and slowly their numbers grew.

Add enough time and the right environment, and these sapients will evolve into our elves. There.

If you want to add magic to the mix, you could say the elves can speak with plants and animals - a mystical trait they have either learned or earned as a result of their lifestyle. This would further allow them to cooperate with animals and forge symbiotic relations with them, where elves help catle to give birth in exchange of milk, for example.

Jack of Spades
2012-10-08, 05:10 AM
We can even extend this to partly explain why they havent been conquered. Firstly, any place with elves still has most of its wildlife intact, including beasts and monsters that would gladly eat anyone else. Secondly, elves themselves could be immune to most diseases, but that doesn't mean they can't serve as carriers for them! Just being in the presence of elves could lead to catching a deadly plague. Remember how diseases carried by european invaders wreaked havoc among native americans? It's that in reverse. The would-be conquerors kill the first bunch of elves, laughing at these naive beings. They return home with their spoils of war - and next thing you know, it is THEIR civilization that ends up decimated. Cue legends of a blood curse befalling anyone who does violence on the fair folk, and anyone who could enslave the elves is too frightened to try.

Aaaand now Team Evil Druid Elf Shepherds isn't selling slaves, but they are the terror of any port town, thanks to construct-operated ships provided by a wizard buddy or several.

Which is actually kinda a cool idea for a pirate faction.

Shred-Bot
2012-10-08, 01:39 PM
If the concern with eating dead animals is maggot infestation/general rotting, they could go on long hunting trips where they just find an old animal, and follow it for weeks until it dies so they can then bring it back

So... the elves are xkcd time vultures, using aging to kill their prey!

SpamandEggs
2012-10-08, 03:56 PM
I don't see why it shouldn't work stereotypically.

When you use wood to build a house, it's still wood, you haven't made it something "unnatural". Same thing with using plant fibers to make clothes, they're still natural fibers, just in a different form. Barring major chemical alterations (something stereo elves aren't known for), it's only a close-minded elf who wouldn't wear a cotton shirt because it's "unnatural", and that seems out of character with the whole "expanded mind hippie" thing.

When you pull a flower out of the ground it's still a flower, and as long as they agree with that, most manufacturing should be morally ok.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-10-08, 04:41 PM
When you pull a flower out of the ground it's still a flower, and as long as they agree with that, most manufacturing should be morally ok.

But then it's a dead flower. A flower corpse.

I think it's functioning insanity to follow that mindset, but would you say there's nothing wrong with killing someone because it's still a human?

Coidzor
2012-10-08, 04:43 PM
But then it's a dead flower. A flower corpse.

I think it's functioning insanity to follow that mindset, but would you say there's nothing wrong with killing someone because it's still a human?

Not for a while and then only if you don't do anything with it.

Cotton fluff is something that can be harvested without even preventing the seeds from going on to make more cotton plants, so it's probably not a very good example if they're willing to make leather out of roadkill.

Xzeno
2012-10-08, 05:58 PM
Woo, a lot to work with again. I'm glad this is shaping up to be an interesting topic.

Alright, so: One thing I'd like to reiterate is the racial nature of this culture. While I continue to use the term "elves" and encourage everyone to do so, I'd like to mention that my primary interest is designing a culture. While most members are indeed elves, there are members of every race. For that reason, I'd like to avoid solutions reliant on the physiology of elves. It's also worth noting that this culture by no means speaks for all elves. While the diaspora can trace its origins to this culture (or a past version of it, quite probably with different standards) and homeland, most elves are part of other civilizations.

One physiological thing that seemed cool was poisonous elves, to discourage predators. Could this conceivably be achieved solely through diet and whatnot, without relying on many years of evolution, so that it could apply to non elf members of these groups?

The poison elves would work with my only current conception of defense: living in an inhospitable area devoid of riches. While forests and people themselves have value, the relative strength and hostility of the creatures in the environment, combine with the low populations all around, might do something to discourage slaving adventures.

Another thing is the issue of nature. To clarify, these dudes don't operate, ethically, based on reverence to nature. Rather, they just believe it's wrong to hurt living things for personal gain: it's not wrong to cut a tree because the tree is natural, it's wrong to cut a tree because it is living, cutting hurts it, and the desire for crafts or lodging is not considered a justifiable reason to cut a tree. So if the elves are able (morally) to defend themselves against humanoids (which I think most ought to be, at least), then they can defend themselves against any other living threats.

Blightedmarsh has more articulately expressed my concern with the concept of dependent livestock. While a discrete instance of acquiring goods might not harm certain types of livestock, the process of domestication does.

Serpentine's counterpoint, in my mind, stands. No reason not to make use of liberated livestock. Of course, the breeding of such creatures wouldn't be encouraged. Still, it could easily lead to semi-domestic populations.

So I feel like we've managed to cook up relatively abundant ways of keeping our elves fed and more or less clothed. Two major issues still bother me:

-Construction and shelter. I suppose they could use their limited abilities to generate textiles and leather to create tents and the like, but I feel like that industry, as well as lumber, is being stretched pretty thin already. The idea of shaping plants to create lodgings might have some merit. How much harm would that do?

-Defense. As has been mentioned, their general lack of industry and low numbers puts them at a natural disadvantage in the area of warfare with other humanoids. For a while I was considering using a divine defense: the nature gods are on their side! The problem is that it's inconsistent with the rest of the setting. The nature god is very into the strong stomping on the weak, and the gods in general have a neutral, hands off approach to mortal affairs.

The only other defense is home turf advantage. Fighting a guerrilla battle in a hostile environment can do a lot to discourage attackers, particularly when the elves don't have much worthwhile to take.

Gensuru
2012-10-08, 07:07 PM
Well one idea for food and supplys (while magical to some degree) is to simply stop assuming an Earth-like eco-system. Invent a number of odd plants and animals that the elves can use in some kind of symbiosis. E.g. gather the dead sticks from the forest ground and feed them to the Boiler-Toad or something. Digestion of wood will cause those toads to create heat and to secrete some substance from their skin that can be ingested as food-replacement. They'll just have to keep the Toads happy so they'll stay and not attack them. Granted that is being lazy and using magic to a degree but maybe you'll like it.

Well as for the points in that last post:

Construction/shelter: Leaves. Giant ones if need be. Maybe have some reptiles around so one can mek use of their shedded skin. Otherwise make the climate one where they don't need all that much shelter to begin with. Sometimes elves are depicted as building their homes around the trees so as to avoid cutting them down. Take that one step further (magically or not) and have them slightly alter the trees to create basic shelters for them. So long as they aren't carving up the trees or decreasing its functionality by giving it a new shape they are technically not harming nature, are they? Also: what about giant spider-webbing? That might be of some use if you can avoid getting eaten by spiders. And stealing a bit of webbing will hardly cause any real harm to the critter, will it?


Defense: Who says they'll need any? What, other than space, do they have that's worth anything? From the way I see it this is supposed to be a settlement of idealists. people willing to barely exist under minimalistic circumstances to suit their idea of morals. Unless someone wants to chop down the trees or something do these people really have anything worth taking? I'm having an easier time imagining these elves as nomadic, following the herds inside the forest and living off of them as best as they can without hurting anything. A non-moving settlement might be outright impossible without magic oô I'd say their first reaction to being threatened would likewise be to flee. They'd know the forest better than any outsider to there is one advantage. As for big predators: well you don't need to fight those off if you're clever about avoiding them. Aren't there birds that can safely fly into a crocodiles open mouth to pick out the remains from between their teeth and not get eaten because they're doing the predator a favour by cleaning them? Or hippos or whatever animal that was that had that kind of help. Rhinos? No idea but you get the gist of it I hope^^°

Again I can't see idealists having much of a chance against any kind of realistic threat. Likewise I can't see much of a reason for any intelligent lifeform to attack these people in the first place. No riches, no ressources. So unless you want wood or slaves what reason is there for any humanoid to attack them? Defensive needs would seem to be minimal. Just barely enough to survive against predators in the woods. And if they have ways to detect them in advance and avoid them they don't even need weapons for those.


Again, you might want to consider making them nomadic. That way they don't need any major construction. Some manner of tent or sleeping bag ought to suffice. They can make that out of discarded fur, leaves or by shaving off their own hair if need be -_-^^ And they can keep picking berries this way as someone already pointed out.

Sodalite
2012-10-08, 07:15 PM
I would add that, assuming they utilize flesh given willingly from a regenerating creature, I imagine that if they gave that creature great enough benefits in return, it would agree to defend them. Trolls, and other, stronger beings might defend the elves because the elves treat them like royalty, rather than monsters the way the other races do. It isn't quite the same as divine protection, but I think that the elves having a cadre of trolls on their side might at least discourage casual attacks on them.

Simply an idea, of course.

Also, swordsage'd by Gensuru, but I think this is still relevant.

toapat
2012-10-08, 07:29 PM
I would add that, assuming they utilize flesh given willingly from a regenerating creature, I imagine that if they gave that creature great enough benefits in return, it would agree to defend them. Trolls, and other, stronger beings might defend the elves because the elves treat them like royalty, rather than monsters the way the other races do. It isn't quite the same as divine protection, but I think that the elves having a cadre of trolls on their side might at least discourage casual attacks on them.

Simply an idea, of course.

Also, swordsage'd by Gensuru, but I think this is still relevant.

and of course, the Tarrasque could have been donated by a neutral group for harvesting forever once the Alip has done it in

UserShadow7989
2012-10-08, 07:41 PM
Going by the idea of fantasy foliage, you could have the areas they tend to dwell in populated with trees that often 'shed' large leaves and bark pieces and the like.

The former could be used in construction, while the latter could (depending on the texture, durability, etc of it) be used to make armor or even weapons for self defense, or at least be useful for making controlled fire to repel predators at night/cook food.

It might even justify shelter in and of itself- what about a tree that has massive roots that group upwards and the down, forming a sort of roof if you place some stuff on it to fill the gaps, or a massive and thick series of branches that make it act almost like an umbrella?

Natural defenses could also work in a different way- have the region be populated by giant animals, for example. The larger a creature is, generally, the more energy it takes to move or do anything, so the area might have a few threateningly large animals that are terrifying in appearance but actually herbivores (hunting is exhaustive, but a tree can't run away, so evolution might have seen them shrink compared to ancestors and switch to less speedy prey) and not very active besides.

That gives me an idea- things that are scary enough to chase off most people, who probably wouldn't stick around long enough to find out they're not very dangerous.

The elves could defend themselves in that vein by using illusions (magical or otherwise) or putting on a 'dangerous savages' act that send aggressors (be they people or animals) running for the hills and make them look far more threatening than they are. Just because THEY know they're under equipped and outnumbered doesn't mean other people do, and it's a way to end a potential fight without bloodshed- important since their numbers would be fairly low at any given time.

nedz
2012-10-08, 07:53 PM
The poison elves would work with my only current conception of defense: living in an inhospitable area devoid of riches. While forests and people themselves have value, the relative strength and hostility of the creatures in the environment, combine with the low populations all around, might do something to discourage slaving adventures.

-Defense. As has been mentioned, their general lack of industry and low numbers puts them at a natural disadvantage in the area of warfare with other humanoids. For a while I was considering using a divine defense: the nature gods are on their side! The problem is that it's inconsistent with the rest of the setting. The nature god is very into the strong stomping on the weak, and the gods in general have a neutral, hands off approach to mortal affairs.

The only other defense is home turf advantage. Fighting a guerrilla battle in a hostile environment can do a lot to discourage attackers, particularly when the elves don't have much worthwhile to take.

Surely Poison will cause harm to living creatures should they eat you ?
So you break your taboo after death.

War might also cause harm to living creatures.

TuggyNE
2012-10-08, 08:36 PM
Also: what about giant spider-webbing? That might be of some use if you can avoid getting eaten by spiders. And stealing a bit of webbing will hardly cause any real harm to the critter, will it?

Arguably, yes it does; spider webs require fairly significant effort to maintain, and are the basic source of food for a given spider. Taking any substantial amount definitely requires extra work from the spider and could reasonably be considered harm.


Aren't there birds that can safely fly into a crocodiles open mouth to pick out the remains from between their teeth and not get eaten because they're doing the predator a favour by cleaning them? Or hippos or whatever animal that was that had that kind of help. Rhinos? No idea but you get the gist of it I hope^^°

There are quite a number of similar creatures; some shrimps and fish, for example, as well as a number of species of birds. So that has lots of support.

SpamandEggs
2012-10-08, 08:36 PM
But then it's a dead flower. A flower corpse.

I think it's functioning insanity to follow that mindset, but would you say there's nothing wrong with killing someone because it's still a human?

Well, that would be pretty messed up, but then again, if it's in a d&d world, there's a fully explored afterlife, so the argument could be made that the soul or "life force" just moves around, never really dying. It's not really realistic, but hey. Fantasy world. At least they wouldn't be some goth death cult that's done to death.

if we followed your criticism and changed it to normal, though, they'd really be against the taking of life, technically. It's not about being "natural" or "unnatural", it's alive or dead. Those would just be the wrong words to justify them correcting the world around them because it's part of some "natural order". And they'd really have to hate forest fires then, huh? Taking life that was already the way nature intends it?

Unless they explain that it's part of some "natural order", in which case i think it allows for sentient beings to murder eachother too, because, hey, we're all natural, just like a forest fire.

Serpentine
2012-10-09, 12:46 AM
-Construction and shelter. I suppose they could use their limited abilities to generate textiles and leather to create tents and the like, but I feel like that industry, as well as lumber, is being stretched pretty thin already. The idea of shaping plants to create lodgings might have some merit. How much harm would that do?Easy-peasy. Caves, driftwood, shed branches, logs, shed leaves, leather, textiles, hollow trees, shaped plants...

-Defense. As has been mentioned, their general lack of industry and low numbers puts them at a natural disadvantage in the area of warfare with other humanoids. For a while I was considering using a divine defense: the nature gods are on their side! The problem is that it's inconsistent with the rest of the setting. The nature god is very into the strong stomping on the weak, and the gods in general have a neutral, hands off approach to mortal affairs.I mentioned in passing the possible use of chilis in defense - as long as just pain with no long term damage in self-defense is considered acceptable, they could get creative with substances such as that. Other possibilities are plants and magic and so on that can disrupt enemies without harming them. Sleeping spells, toadstool spores that cause hallucinations, paralysing poisons... There's a pretty good range of "harmless" methods to put down would-be aggressors. I think you could have particular fun with hallucinations: some sort of poison or spell that has no physical effect (except possibly paralysis or sleep, to avoid them running around and hurting themselves) but that gives them really, really nasty, terrifying dreams could serve not only to subdue an immediate threat, but to spread an aura of fear and superstition around the elves. Of course, the secret of the substance/spell would be a deeply close-held secret...

Well, that would be pretty messed up, but then again, if it's in a d&d world, there's a fully explored afterlife, so the argument could be made that the soul or "life force" just moves around, never really dying. It's not really realistic, but hey. Fantasy world. At least they wouldn't be some goth death cult that's done to death.

if we followed your criticism and changed it to normal, though, they'd really be against the taking of life, technically. It's not about being "natural" or "unnatural", it's alive or dead. Those would just be the wrong words to justify them correcting the world around them because it's part of some "natural order". And they'd really have to hate forest fires then, huh? Taking life that was already the way nature intends it?

Unless they explain that it's part of some "natural order", in which case i think it allows for sentient beings to murder eachother too, because, hey, we're all natural, just like a forest fire.I'm not sure that you've quite gotten the premise? As a recap: these elves are not concerned with natural vs. unnatural, and natural causes of death are not something that concerns them. The premise of their culture is that they do not willingly harm any living thing... and that's it.

LordErebus12
2012-10-09, 12:53 AM
most elves are not expressly vegetarians or vegans... this is something that might be so in smaller communities, but as a whole, i believe they simply view it like native american cultures do... take and use what you kill, take not in vain or in sport. use wisely, etc.

elves are great farmers, druids work the native lands of the elves in wondrous ways. they might grow all their fruits and vegetables within their tree homes, using natural and magically warped trunks as planters, etc. or even grow everything within the windows and archways of their homes, free for all who pass to grab up a meal.

depends on where and how you want them, but i dont like the concept of shy or territorial elves, i like them kind and generous.

Frozen_Feet
2012-10-09, 03:40 AM
It would be possible to be poisonous through diet, but it requires natural or acquired immunity while allowing the toxins to accumulate. So it is not given non-elven physiology would be able to repeat the trick. Some species might become immune without becoming poisonous, and others might die trying.

Inglenook
2012-10-09, 04:06 AM
I haven't read through the thread at all, so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but you could have your elves take a page out of real life cultures: have them cheat.

In cultures with inconvenient and idiosyncratic rules, people almost always find work-arounds. Most Amish are forbidden from owning vehicles because they represent distance, and they "carry" people away from their families and communities. The intent of the law is "Cars are bad!" but loopholes let them ride in cars with others, or hire people to drive them around.

Or Sabbath law for some groups. It forbids turning lights on or off on the Sabbath, so they use Shabbat clocks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_clock#Shabbat_clocks) or Shabbat goys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbas_goy).

Rules are made to be bent and twisted. Particularly if they're chaotic elves. :smallsmile:

Blightedmarsh
2012-10-09, 05:31 AM
As to defense...

They live in a wet and tectonically very active region with fast growing forests and otherwise barren soil.

Ports are destroyed by tidal waves, fortresses, towers and building are toppled by earthquakes. When farmers clear the land of trees the monsoons wash away their soils leaving their lands barren. Volcanically spawned forest fires destroy villages and communities.

It is very hard to build any kind of material culture here, but it can be bountiful. It provides an abundance of obsidian and fallen timber, fire cleared forests are rich with berries and bushes. Lots of game and predators leave lots of carrion for the locals to forage but the wildlife has its own vicious scavengers that make making a kill a dicey prospect at best.

The elves are the product of this harsh land.

hoverfrog
2012-10-09, 09:12 AM
Actually they can also eat leafy vegetables like some lettuce plants simply by pealing off the out leaves and eating them. They can also fashion these into clothing or use the animal and vegetable form the fauna and flora that dies naturally.

Of course they could rely on goodberries and magically conjured food to survive.

Toofey
2012-10-09, 09:31 AM
If they were all nature'y' and wanted to live in harmony with nature why would they live in such an unnatural way. the reality is that animals in nature eat one another, Fruits taste good so that you will eat them (and poop the seeds somewhere) If many herbivorous are not hunted their populations overwhelm their food supplies. They're currently finding that the reintroduction of wolves (which kill other animals) has had a number of unforeseen positive effects on the biosphere in Yellowstone right down to an increase in the water quality of the natural streams there.

It doens't seem right that elves would totally remove themselves from the cycles of nature, which is exactly what you have them doing.

Now setting all that aside, they could use magic, or eat Dew and Pollen (or even Moonbeams and songs, it's fantasy after all), and because of their nature be sustained by that.

caden_varn
2012-10-09, 10:33 AM
With regards to gathering wood, if the elves are happy to harvest flesh from regenerating creatures, maybe they can do something similar with trees via the awaken spell. The elves promise to protect the trees from loggers, fire etc., and in return the trees provide an amount of wood for tools and weapons etc.

As for why people may attack them, land is a good enough reason. If you have an expanding population, you need more land to put under the plough, or more wood for industry/building etc. That's not even considering valuable mineral deposits in the area.
Given that the elves are basically very selective foragers, their population density is going to need to be very low, which makes them very vulnerable to attack or having their land taken.

There are a couple of reasons I can see how they may survive - first, they live in an area with very low value for agriculture or hunting, so no one else wants it. This is going to mean that it is even more difficult for them to find enough resources to survive.

A more practical solution may be to make these people an adjunct to a more normal society. These may be vegetarians, but still farm and cut wood etc, so they are a reasonably large and powerful group. They regard the elves as holy and protect them and their land fiercely.

Serpentine
2012-10-09, 09:53 PM
Protection from a bigger, stronger civilisation might not be a bad idea, actually. They may be protected i return for something, but it could also just be superstition or religious reverance.

Jane_Smith
2012-10-10, 07:13 AM
I do not know if this has been suggested, but an extremely easy fix to there food and clothing problems, make them a hybrid of the typical elf (quick, graceful, silent, deadly), with a bit of orcish influence (though hides and strong), and instead of making them require less/no sleep like normal elves, maybe make them require less food to sustain themselves?

For example - Crocodiles can eat a single meal and can live off that for up to 3 months before starving to death.

You could also make them a form of plant humanoid with a special subtype that removes op plant immunities (like warforged is a living construct), and they could gain food/water from soil, light, and moisture, in addition to being resilient, quick-healing and resistant to forest/jungle toxins and plant based poisons.

Wardog
2012-10-15, 03:07 PM
Also, silk is produced from boiling silkworms alive in their coccoons, so... I don't think they'd be making silk.

This is a spider silk cape. All craftselfship is of the highest quality. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2012/jan/24/spider-silk-cape-show)

Eldan
2012-10-15, 03:30 PM
For example - Crocodiles can eat a single meal and can live off that for up to 3 months before starving to death..

Though that is because they barely have any body heat, need the sun to warm up and mostly lie around motionlessly. I don't think anyone would want to play a character who had to sleep 20 hours every day and spend half of their awake time in the sun to avoid falling into torpor.

SoC175
2012-10-15, 04:21 PM
I mean, each elf could be a master swordsman by human standards, but in the end that won't matter because the humans can support a larger, better equipped population.Especially because these elves can't even make swords in the first place.

With this strict cultural taboos they can't really support anything more than small families living in caves.

Coidzor
2012-10-15, 04:33 PM
Though that is because they barely have any body heat, need the sun to warm up and mostly lie around motionlessly. I don't think anyone would want to play a character who had to sleep 20 hours every day and spend half of their awake time in the sun to avoid falling into torpor.

Like a bizarro version of Vampire: The Masquerade...