Chained compression

[The Boz]

OK, so it says that when a person transforms through shapeshifting or a similar effect, his gear melts into the new form. What happens if someone gets in, say, a vault, throws a bunch of stuff into a huge bag of holding, and then shapeshifts into a mouse?

[Deathkeeper]

If it was on his person, then it's in the mouse. Somewhere.

[nedz]

You can do this with a level 2 spell - Alterself.
Which is excellent for smuggling:
Can't take weapons in to see the King: "Alterself into myself absorbing my Glaive-Guisarme".
It is a bit easier than the "I am but an old man, who needs hos walking stick" bluff.

[TuggyNE]

You can do this with a level 2 spell - Alterself.
Which is excellent for smuggling:
Can't take weapons in to see the King: "Alterself into myself absorbing my Glaive-Guisarme".
It is a bit easier than the "I am but an old man, who needs hos walking stick" bluff.

I don't believe that actually works. Alter self's melding clause:
When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional.

You don't get a choice in this; if you can use the item, it stays out, otherwise it melds in.

[nedz]

I don't believe that actually works. Alter self's melding clause:


When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional.
You don't get a choice in this; if you can use the item, it stays out, otherwise it melds in.

There are two ways of parsing that sentence :smallconfused:
I, obviously, read it the other way.

Ed: to clarify
either A (Condition C) or B

Does this mean that you must choose A, if C is true
or
Does this mean that you can choose A only if C is true
?

[TuggyNE]

There are two ways of parsing that sentence :smallconfused:
I, obviously, read it the other way.

Ed: to clarify
either A (Condition C) or B

Does this mean that you must choose A, if C is true
or
Does this mean that you can choose A only if C is true
?

The point, as I read it, is that it neither states nor implies any choice; the conditional describes the spell's effect under different circumstances, not the choices available to the caster. In other words, "the spell's effects are A (if C applies) or else B".

If it said something like this, you'd have a point: "When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, may remain worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or may meld into the new form and become nonfunctional."

[ben-zayb]

Why trouble ourselves with complicated polymorphing shenanigans when there is a spell specifically used as an extradimensional space?:smallbiggrin:

Sincerely Yours,
living Hoard GulletDragon Magic spell

[AlchemicalMyst]

There are two ways of parsing that sentence :smallconfused:
I, obviously, read it the other way.

Ed: to clarify
either A (Condition C) or B

Does this mean that you must choose A, if C is true
or
Does this mean that you can choose A only if C is true
?
It's very clear about it actually. Also, it's a perfect example of an if-then-else statement. You could do the whole, "Well it never said I couldn't!" argument but come on...that gets really old. Especially, since we all know WoTC, usually, likes to go with the whole concept of, "If it doesn't say may, then there is no choice."

SRD:
"When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional."

IF: New form is capable of wearing and/or holding any equipment currently being held or worn.
Then: New form is wearing and/or holding equipment that was being held or worn by previous form.
ELSE: It melds into the new form becoming nonfunctional.

Human holding sword changes to orc = orc holding sword
Human holding sword changes to horse = sword melding into horse becoming nonfunctional.


Now, to the OP, it will vary from GM to GM. The part I notice constantly disagreed on is the part of what is equipment being worn? Some GMs will say you drop the bag when you become a mouse, others say the bag melds with you. Good idea to ask yours before you attempt such a thing.

[hex0]

Human holding sword changes to orc = orc holding sword
Human holding sword changes to horse = sword melding into horse becoming nonfunctional.


Or for the 'no weapons allowed' tactic, be a human with a greatsword and alterself into a halfling or gnome.

[TuggyNE]

Or for the 'no weapons allowed' tactic, be a human with a greatsword and alterself into a halfling or gnome.

That's rather dubious; you can wield a Medium greatsword as a Small creature, you just take penalties for it. Or should alter self et al try to figure out if you have feats or items that reduce this penalty? (Hint: no, that way lies absurd complications.)

[hex0]

That's rather dubious; you can wield a Medium greatsword as a Small creature, you just take penalties for it. Or should alter self et al try to figure out if you have feats or items that reduce this penalty? (Hint: no, that way lies absurd complications.)

Okay, you are a human with monkey grip?

[TuggyNE]

Okay, you are a human with monkey grip?

Hmm? No no, sorry if I miscommunicated; I meant that whether you have Monkey Grip, Strongarm Bracers, Powerful Build, or nothing at all, you should continue wielding the weapon as long as it is physically possible for you to hold it at all. Alter self shouldn't try to figure out if you can efficiently wield it; it only cares about whether you can hold it in more or less the usual way.

[nedz]

In which case: can you give an example of when this could ever trigger ?

[TuggyNE]

Alter self is unlikely to be able to do this most of the time for that very reason; most PC races are of types that are comprised largely of human-shaped creatures (Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Giant), so it'd be difficult to impossible to trigger it. However, if you happen to be e.g. a centaur, alter self might be able to e.g. meld in horseshoes :P

Of course, some types are much freer. If you happen to be an Outsider, say with Aasimar, you're good to go with all kinds of crazy shapes. Undead is even better of course. For that matter, Magical Beast is possible and quite effective. You get the picture.

[The Boz]

Now, to the OP, it will vary from GM to GM. The part I notice constantly disagreed on is the part of what is equipment being worn? Some GMs will say you drop the bag when you become a mouse, others say the bag melds with you. Good idea to ask yours before you attempt such a thing.

I's the DM in question. I'd personally allow it, because I'm just that kind of a good guy, but it's an an interesting interaction, and could be a way to some space-abuse. Just wanted to hear what the people here thought of it.

[nedz]

I understand your argument, it just wasn't how I read the paragraph.
I still think the text is ambiguous, or at least badly written.