When is one Epic?

[Ssin]

I am DM-ing a campaign of evil creatures, Troll's, lizardfold, Drow, etc.

Where around lvl (ECL) 18-19 now and I was wondering, when one actually reaches epic level (because with the standard races after lvl 20 your BAB only increases slowly and you get no additional attacks, correct?)

So how does this work with a Troll (from the top of my head, correct me if I'm wrong) who has 4 racial HD, 5 LA and 10 levels of fighter?

[Flickerdart]

Someone's character level must be 21+ in order to count as an Epic character. Your Troll would have 11 more Fighter levels to go before he could start taking Epic feats and get Epic BAB and saves.

[Ssin]

Thank you for your quick reply :)

But that would mean the BAB of the Troll fighter becomes higher then 20?
(I just checked, Troll is 5 LA 6 racial HD)

Since the Troll also receives BAB from his giant HDs that would mean that if he is fighter level 20 he has a BAB of +24/19/14/9/4 ?

[Bomaz]

The way I see it is that he has 4 lvls of troll, 10 fighter. So another 7 lvls to go before 21.

[Hirax]

BAB can go higher than 20 from racial hit dice according to the ELH, but note that BAB can only ever grant 4 iterative attacks according to the ELH. This does not affect things such as haste, which grant extra attacks.

[Jeraa]

According to the 3.5 DMG, you are considered epic if you have at least 21 character levels (page 206), or have an effective character level of 21 or higher (page 209).

[Eugenides]

The way I see it is that he has 4 lvls of troll, 10 fighter. So another 7 lvls to go before 21.

Character levels. Levels in troll are levels in racial hit dice, don't think they count.

[karkus]

Actually, your troll only needs 2 more levels to be Epic. It specifically states that racial HD and LA apply in this case, so you just need to be someone with an ECL of 21 or higher. *makes overly-smug face*

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Level adjustment has absolutely nothing to do with when a character is considered epic, because it's based entirely on character level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm). Level adjustment doesn't modify your character level, so it does not contribute to making a character epic.

BAB never goes above 20, you stop getting BAB at character level 20, as well as base save bonuses. You instead get an epic attack bonus and an epic save bonus per the epic level progressions. Epic attack bonus does not contribute to gaining iterative attacks, so if your BAB was less than +16 at 20th, you'll never get a base four attacks/round barring Divine Power or similar.

[Jeraa]

The 3.5 Dungeon masters Guide has rules for epic characters as well. And it specifically says on page 209 that if a character has an ECL of 21 or higher, then it is considered epic.

ECL is Class levels + racial hit dice + level adjustment.

Epic Level Handbook, page 25 also agrees. (The sidebar "Monsters as Epic Characters.") It specifically states:


For example, a creature with a level adjustment of +5 who is also a 13th-level fighter/3rd-level blackguard is ECL 21 and eligible to select an epic feat provided he meets the prerequisites.

As epic feats are only available to epic characters, then the character above must be considered epic level. So level adjustment does count.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A character with a level adjustment does use his ECL to determine when he begins gaining epic attack bonus and epic save bonuses instead of base attack/save bonuses, but that has nothing to do with epic feats. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#acquiringEpicFeats):


Acquiring Epic Feats

Characters gain epic feats in the following ways:

At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.

Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to the class description. These feats must be selected from the list of bonus epic feats for that class.

That does not use the term effective level, so it's referring to your actual character level rather than ECL. Regardless of level adjustment, you cannot begin gaining epic feats until your 21st character level.

This actually puts level adjusted characters at a significant disadvantage, since they have fewer levels in which to gain BAB and are far less likely to even reach four attacks/round.

[AmberVael]

A character with a level adjustment does use his ECL to determine when he begins gaining epic attack bonus and epic save bonuses instead of base attack/save bonuses, but that has nothing to do with epic feats.

You've actually got this backwards. Here is the ELH quote:

Regardless of its ECL, a monster with class levels uses the base attack bonus and base save bonus progressions of its class (rather than the progression shown on Table 1-1)* until it has 20 character leves. Beginning with its 21st character level, it uses the progressions shown on Table 1-1.
In any other place in this book where "character level" is indicated, you can use effective character level instead. For example, a creature with a level adjustment of +5 who is also a 13th-level fighter/3rd-level blackguard is ECL 21 and eligible to select an epic feat provided he meets the prerequisites.
*The Epic Save And Epic Attack Bonuses table.

This is the full quote that Jeraa was citing on page 25. It is quite explicit in its description.


Edit: Double checking though, the DMG does seem to directly contradict this on the Save and BAB portion. It does not, however, seem to disagree about epic feats.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The ELH is 3.0, it's outdated and thus irrelevant. Everything it contains is completely superseded by the epic sections in the DMG and the SRD. You can't just gain epic feats once you're epic, they can only be gained in place of a feat you would get at every third character level starting at 21st, or via bonus feats from the epic progression of a given class. The rules are crystal clear on this.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think RHD count, but not LA. RHD give you hit dice, BAB, saving throws, and skills.

[AmberVael]

The ELH is 3.0, it's outdated and thus irrelevant. Everything it contains is completely superseded by the epic sections in the DMG and the SRD. You can't just gain epic feats once you're epic, they can only be gained in place of a feat you would get at every third character level starting at 21st, or via bonus feats from the epic progression of a given class. The rules are crystal clear on this.

If you're going to toss out ELH entirely for this (which is fair, given that it IS 3.0 material) then your quote from the SRD about 21st level is not valid. The SRD was pulling from the ELH for that quote- the DMG says nothing about requiring level 21, it only says:


Epic Feats
The following feats are available only to epic characters. Whenever an epic character gains a new feat, it can be from among the ones in the Player's Handbook or one of the feats described below.

Given that the rules directly above this say that "the epic rules in this section also work for monsters with character levels, using the creature's effective character level (ECL) instead of just its class levels" I think it's pretty clear even with just the DMG that epic feats are something you can take when your ECL hits 21.

[Wavelab]

I believe what they're trying to say is that you're epic if your ECL is 21+ but you don't get any changes to BAB, saves or feat selection until you have 21+ character levels.

[karkus]

I think that Epic BAB and saves only apply when you have Epic levels in a class. So, you could be a 10th level Horizon Walker and a 12th level Ranger, but still get regular BAB and saves from each source, unlike if you were a 22nd level Ranger, because then you would have already started using Epic progression.

[KillianHawkeye]

I think RHD count, but not LA. RHD give you hit dice, BAB, saving throws, and skills.

Yes. For all those who are unsure about this:

Character Level = Class Levels + Racial HD
Effective Character Level = Class Levels + Racial HD + Level Adjustment

You may now go back to your regularly-scheduled discussion. :smallbiggrin:

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think that Epic BAB and saves only apply when you have Epic levels in a class. So, you could be a 10th level Horizon Walker and a 12th level Ranger, but still get regular BAB and saves from each source, unlike if you were a 22nd level Ranger, because then you would have already started using Epic progression.

...No. That's not how it works.

Look, D&D is broken. Really broken. But when it comes to something so obvious and critical as this, it just plain doesn't make sense for the writers to make it that way. There would be no reason to go epic barbarian if switching to fighter made your attack bonus and fortitude save go up twice as fast.

[Darius Kane]

3.5 Epic Rules are stupid and unnecessarily convoluted.

[Ssin]

I see I sparked a small debate here :p

reading all the reactions I think my best call as a DM is the following:

You get epic BAB & Saves the moment you become 21 HD (so racial HD + class levels)

You may take epic feats when your ECL is 21+ (so racial HD + class levels + LA) íf you meet all the other prerequisites for that feat.

Does that sound like a reasonable call to you?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I see I sparked a small debate here :p

reading all the reactions I think my best call as a DM is the following:

You get epic BAB & Saves the moment you become 21 HD (so racial HD + class levels)

You may take epic feats when your ECL is 21+ (so racial HD + class levels + LA) íf you meet all the other prerequisites for that feat.

Does that sound like a reasonable call to you?

You've got it completely backwards from what the rules state.

ECL 21+ is when you start using epic attack bonuses and epic save bonuses (DMG p209, Monsters As Epic Characters).

21 HD is when you can start taking epic feats (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#acquiringEpicFeats)).


If I were you, I'd just say everything happens at 21 HD, completely ignoring level adjustment for purposes of when someone is considered epic. The rules are decidedly unfair to level-adjusted characters, but it should have been more standardized to begin with. Considering you can buy off a level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) it could give monstrous characters more epic feats than they should have later on once they catch up. The rest of the game doesn't count ECL for anything but the XP table, and this should carry over into epic levels.

[Ssin]

The 'problem' I have (well not really me but in this case the troll fighter :P) with

"ECL 21+ is when you start using epic attack bonuses and epic save bonuses (DMG p209, Monsters As Epic Characters)"

is that the fighter would be a 6 hd giant (+5 la) +10 levels of fighter would make him ecl 21 and 'epic' this would also mean he has a BAB of 14/9/4 so he would never get his fourth attack... that doesn't seem really fair to me somehow?

it also strikes me as weird that you get epic bab & saves, but you're not allowed to take epic feats untill 5 levels after that (still using the troll as an example)

Then again, if it's in the DMG it's pretty much core rules and he 'shouldn't have become a troll'