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Anderlith
2012-10-06, 05:48 PM
So in a new campaign I'm thinking of running the players will be living in a world where magic does everything & people just sort of live boring blissful lives. Constructs form the basis of the army & combat is something people do as a hobby. Mages are people of exalted standing & are treated as royalty (even though the most common of citizen is treated to most any whim they can think of mages rank higher) Apart from a few spell component garden-farms that people or constructs work as a way of not being bored, there is little to no idea of currency.

So this magical paradise gets annihilated. (plot happens)

The players & refuges then must live in a wilderness that hasn't seen "civilized" man for a millennia or so.

Long story short, the players will not be in a world that
1) Truly understands trade & barter
2) Has access to a standard of currency

I don't doubt that I can find ways to reward them & such but I was wondering if there was a guideline or something for rewarding characters without giving GP

Malak'ai
2012-10-06, 05:54 PM
Food or other essentials that one needs to survive.

navar100
2012-10-06, 06:00 PM
Have whatever caused the apocalypse a side effect (or purposeful cause depending on what the Event was) of altering plants and animals. Plants and animals parts can be used for various "magical" things, i. e. potions and oils, but not necessarily limited to 3rd level. They have intrinsic value allowing players interesting choices of using them for their effect or gifting them for services rendered.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-10-06, 06:00 PM
Surviving magic items and artifacts?

Sith_Happens
2012-10-06, 06:16 PM
Surviving magic items and artifacts?

Definitely this. If the recently-destroyed society was based entirely around using magic to overcome scarcity, then obviously the most valuable commodity by far would be the surviving scrolls, wands, and other magic items.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-10-06, 06:20 PM
What system are you using? Because D&D breaks down if you pull the rug out from under its blissful unrealistic economy.

I'd recommend FATE 3e (Spirit of the Century, which has a free SRD and PDF, and Dresden Files, which doesn't have a free semi-genericized version, but is better written and has a magic system, although the magic is unbalanced), or Cortex RPG (generic system, just got it and I love it).

In any case, I'm guessing barter would quickly spring up. The ramifications of this would be similar to Emberverse, which due to a time distortion effect, suddenly has all industrial and modern era technology, plus steam engines, guns, and explosives, stop working entirely. Bows and crossbows would be highly valued, as would arrows and bolts, with axes, hammers, and knives being next most important, then swords too long to act as knives being least important but still valued.

Anderlith
2012-10-06, 06:38 PM
Okay sorry for not explaining a bit further,
Pathfinder with limited 3.5 in it

I will be letting a few (i.e. a ton) relics be recovered before the collapse of the mega(magical) city the characters lived in.

The world is a bit like Judge Dread but was a magical paradise, not a urban slum.

The Wilds (i.e. the vast unchecked land outside the megacity) is full of all the stuff in the Monster Manuals without the encounter rules, the party could theoretically have to hide from a hydra at level one.


I have been thinking of replacing spell requirements for crafting with bits & bobs from monsters as long as it is a well reasoned replacement for the spell (like a dragon's fire gland for a flaming sword)

My problem is keeping powerful relics out of their hands until level appropiate times. Logically NPC's might not care so much if someone wants to borrow this "weak, mundane" Axe of Thunderbolts & Goblin Punting. Also if you look at the opposite of that spectrum, if the NPC's now value the item, they would almost be fanatical about hording it's now unique & terrible power.

How would the impact of such a broken economy work if they happened to find a civilization out in the Wilds that has a system of currency?

How do I handle player choice when it comes to powerful items? A normal character would just buy & sell to get gold to buy the thing he really wants. The characters in this world would be S.O.L. though

Fouredged Sword
2012-10-06, 07:23 PM
Everything has a value. You can't eat a +1 sword.

Fist thing first. When the walls come down two things are important about an item. First, it will help keep you alive. Second, it will work multiple times.

A potion is worth no more than it's effect. Trading it for some service is completely reasonable.

A magic sword is worth all the times it will come in handy during combat. It should only be traded away for something of lasting effect. A lasting safe shelter may be just as treasured.

nedz
2012-10-06, 07:41 PM
A magic sword is worth all the times it will come in handy during combat. It should only be traded away for something of lasting effect. A lasting safe shelter may be just as treasured.

Yes, but its a well known fact that any adventurer worth their salt will keep the +1 sword and sleep in a ditch.:smallsmile:

Slipperychicken
2012-10-06, 11:14 PM
Yes, but its a well known fact that any adventurer worth their salt will keep the +1 sword and sleep in a ditch.:smallsmile:

When your entire job description is "trudge through caves and stab big scary monsters", the +1 sword is a) an essential tool of the trade, and b) one of the few things keeping you from being monster-chow.

KillianHawkeye
2012-10-06, 11:43 PM
You may need to revert to a simpler system of boons and rewards. If the players help out some townsfolk or rescue the princess, the thankful person or persons give the players something in return or do them a favor. Since the value of products and services is not standardized, there may be some variation in the quality of the boon as each person has to decide for themselves what they consider to be a worthy gift and what they can afford to give away.

Libertad
2012-10-07, 12:08 AM
I second the use of substituting magic items.

You might want to tailor the magic items to ones your group will use, like a flaming axe for a melee warrior. Also try to use more permanent or rechargeable magic items over ones with limited uses by the middle to high levels. For example: an Eternal Wand (Spell Compenidum, Magic of Eberron) of Bull's Strength will go a longer way than potions of the spell, which you won't have to continually give out or create.

Anxe
2012-10-07, 12:12 AM
Dan Simmons' books Olympus and Ilium deal with that. Essentially, technology has advanced so far that people have forgotten how to read. They spend all their time going to parties while the literal infrastructure of their society slowly disintegrates.

ghost_warlock
2012-10-07, 01:40 AM
Bottle caps, man, bottle caps. :smalltongue:

nedz
2012-10-07, 04:40 AM
This is an ideal setting for implementing Magic is Special.
In other words they only have a few items, but they are all very powerful, albeit quirky. They will have rescued some stuff which is of little use to them however.

oxinabox
2012-10-07, 07:39 AM
Last time I ran 3.5/pathfinder (when the later had just came out).
It was a 1000 years since the humans lost the war. "1000 years ago it was a time for heros.... and 1000 years ago those hero's failed. Now it is a time for hero's again, and if they once again fail then even the trace that remains will be extinguished."

Basically humanity has been reduced to a food source.
When I say humanity i mean dwarvemantiy, elfvanity etc. All people were mudbloods, except the PCs who were throwbacks.
Kept in fenced slums, by a bestial race called the Cron.

There was no magic, all knowledge was lost, all items destroyed.
To make up for this, because dnd assumes a particular wealth curve.
I gave everyone the benefits of Vow of Poverty, but without the restrictions.
They could have all the items that wanted,
but the best items that existed were Masterwork.

The in game logic behind the vow of poverty benefits in this case, is not that they are blessed for there faith,
(Indeed what is there to believe in in this world, no doubt the Cron killed and ate our gods with the last of the priests.)
But that if you are still alive then you are one tough dude, especially if you manage to get to a level where the benefits stack up.

The rough thing that vow of poverty was is a table listing benifits you get at certain levels.
It was things like: AC bonuses, extra feats, +2 bonus to your choice of stat, damage reduction.




I can't remember which 3.5 book Vow of Povery is from. I think book of exhalted deads of some thing like that.

nedz
2012-10-07, 08:28 AM
Last time I ran 3.5/pathfinder (when the later had just came out).
It was a 1000 years since the humans lost the war. "1000 years ago it was a time for heros.... and 1000 years ago those hero's failed. Now it is a time for hero's again, and if they once again fail then even the trace that remains will be extinguished."

Basically humanity has been reduced to a food source.
When I say humanity i mean dwarvemantiy, elfvanity etc. All people were mudbloods, except the PCs who were throwbacks.
Kept in fenced slums, by a bestial race called the Cron.

There was no magic, all knowledge was lost, all items destroyed.
To make up for this, because dnd assumes a particular wealth curve.
I gave everyone the benefits of Vow of Poverty, but without the restrictions.
They could have all the items that wanted,
but the best items that existed were Masterwork.

The in game logic behind the vow of poverty benefits in this case, is not that they are blessed for there faith,
(Indeed what is there to believe in in this world, no doubt the Cron killed and ate our gods with the last of the priests.)
But that if you are still alive then you are one tough dude, especially if you manage to get to a level where the benefits stack up.

The rough thing that vow of poverty was is a table listing benifits you get at certain levels.
It was things like: AC bonuses, extra feats, +2 bonus to your choice of stat, damage reduction.




I can't remember which 3.5 book Vow of Povery is from. I think book of exhalted deads of some thing like that.

BoED indeed, but VoP is a bit OP if no one has any equipment anyway, or ever will by the sounds of it.

Slipperychicken
2012-10-07, 11:18 AM
Bottle caps, man, bottle caps. :smalltongue:

/tangent

It always made me feel like a dirty hobo when I realized my Fallout character was running around with 10,000+ bottle caps, scrounging garbage off of corpses, and sleeping on a torn dirty cot in a shanty. And he was one of the rich ones.

The Glyphstone
2012-10-07, 11:48 AM
BoED indeed, but VoP is a bit OP if no one has any equipment anyway, or ever will by the sounds of it.

OP? Hardly. Remember that D&D math assumes equal WBL. At its best, the VoP never exceeds 75-80% of WBL if its benefits are translated directly into items, so if no one has any equipment anyways, then giving free VoP just means they can actually fight instead of meekly walking up and cutting their own throats in front of the enemies.

nedz
2012-10-07, 12:03 PM
OP? Hardly. Remember that D&D math assumes equal WBL. At its best, the VoP never exceeds 75-80% of WBL if its benefits are translated directly into items, so if no one has any equipment anyways, then giving free VoP just means they can actually fight instead of meekly walking up and cutting their own throats in front of the enemies.

Well if the VoP character has 75-80% of WBL and every one else has 0% of WBL then they are clearly ahead of the game. I would expect that the encounters would be designed assuming a balanced party, which clearly this isn't. The other option is that everyone takes VoP, after all why not ?

The Glyphstone
2012-10-07, 01:38 PM
Well if the VoP character has 75-80% of WBL and every one else has 0% of WBL then they are clearly ahead of the game. I would expect that the encounters would be designed assuming a balanced party, which clearly this isn't. The other option is that everyone takes VoP, after all why not ?

...because that's what happened, according to the poster? VoP was given to everyone, for free, making them equalized.



To make up for this, because dnd assumes a particular wealth curve.
I gave everyone the benefits of Vow of Poverty, but without the restrictions.
They could have all the items that wanted,

Anderlith
2012-10-07, 01:43 PM
I did briefly contemplate VoP (even thinking about homebrewing & modifying it), but I do want to give my character's magical gear & things would quickly get out of hand.

nedz
2012-10-07, 02:21 PM
...because that's what happened, according to the poster? VoP was given to everyone, for free, making them equalized.

OK, My bad.
I really must learn to read one of these days.

yougi
2012-10-07, 11:36 PM
When your entire job description is "trudge through caves and stab big scary monsters", the +1 sword is a) an essential tool of the trade, and b) one of the few things keeping you from being monster-chow.

Especially when some monsters resist mundane weapons.


This is an ideal setting for implementing Magic is Special.
In other words they only have a few items, but they are all very powerful, albeit quirky. They will have rescued some stuff which is of little use to them however.

I agree. I would aim at diminishing the number of magic items, but making them more powerful.

Now I'm not 100% sure what your question truly is: do you want to know how to keep the game playable without magic items, or how to give them magic items. Maybe clearing that up would help us help you.

Personally, I would do one of two things: either (a) use Weapons of Legacy, i.e. magic items that become more powerful as you gain level, although you have to do certain rituals at some point so you become more in sync with the item (plot hooks); or (b) give them the bonuses as is, to their person rather than as magic items: either make a skill tree a la video game RPG, based on acceptable gear at each level, or just straight out give them extra bonuses when they level (e.g. at level 3, you would get +1 armor, so you get a magical +1 to AC).

Anderlith
2012-10-08, 10:51 AM
I want to be able to give them magic stuff
I want them to have a choice. I need a way to be able to let them decide what they want within a scarce environment. There choices should be limited, but I don't want to take away all choice.

yougi
2012-10-08, 11:29 AM
Then I would definitely go with upgradable magic items. Give them magic items, and then give them some currency that allows them to upgrade it: instead of gold pieces, give them some magical particle that can be used to improve your magical items. Regardless of what this currency is (souls, crystals, plants, monster parts), PCs can then complete a certain ritual to improve their magic items, for a cost.

Mechanically, it is exactly the same: instead of selling their +1 sword to buy a +2 sword, they pay in [insert currency] to improve it, and instead of it being in town, they actually are in [whatever place you need to be at for the ritual].

nedz
2012-10-08, 11:51 AM
Then I would definitely go with upgradable magic items. Give them magic items, and then give them some currency that allows them to upgrade it: instead of gold pieces, give them some magical particle that can be used to improve your magical items. Regardless of what this currency is (souls, crystals, plants, monster parts), PCs can then complete a certain ritual to improve their magic items, for a cost.

Mechanically, it is exactly the same: instead of selling their +1 sword to buy a +2 sword, they pay in [insert currency] to improve it, and instead of it being in town, they actually are in [whatever place you need to be at for the ritual].

I like this idea, in fact I may steal it :smallcool:
Replace gp costs for casting with some specific material, the gp are just an abstraction of this anyway. Taken all the way this might involve side quests, on which YMMV.

Slipperychicken
2012-10-08, 03:12 PM
Mechanically, it is exactly the same: instead of selling their +1 sword to buy a +2 sword, they pay in [insert currency] to improve it, and instead of it being in town, they actually are in [whatever place you need to be at for the ritual].

[PC raises sword to Druid circle in front of the biggest tree of the forest]

PC: "O wisest elder shamans, perform the Ritual of the Flaming Blade, infuse my weapon with the power of fire, to vanquish Baron Von Evil and his minions!" :smallcool:

Druid: [wryly examines sword] "Seven grand. Take it or leave it"

PC: "But... I have no-"

Druid: "You some kinda retarded? Listen, kid, we got bills to pay, and we 'aint exactly running a charity here. Cough up the dough, or get out, 'fore I have Smokey here pull yer head off" [motions with head toward a rather fierce-looking Dire Bear]

PC: :smallfrown:

Hiro Protagonest
2012-10-08, 03:19 PM
[PC raises sword to Druid circle in front of the biggest tree of the forest]

PC: "O wisest elder shamans, perform the Ritual of the Flaming Blade, infuse my weapon with the power of fire, to vanquish Baron Von Evil and his minions!" :smallcool:

Druid: [wryly examines sword] "Seven grand. Take it or leave it"

PC: "But... I have no-"

Druid: "You some kinda retarded? Listen, kid, we got bills to pay, and we 'aint exactly running a charity here. Cough up the dough, or get out, 'fore I have Smokey here pull yer head off" [motions with head toward a rather fierce-looking Dire Bear]

PC: :smallfrown:

*pulls out a small bag of gold*

"Here, this is seven thousand copper worth of gold."

Edit: And actually, if the player didn't get seven thousand gold on the last adventure, he doesn't have to pay a thing. The enchantment is his reward.

samuraibsd
2012-10-08, 06:23 PM
Then I would definitely go with upgradable magic items. Give them magic items, and then give them some currency that allows them to upgrade it: instead of gold pieces, give them some magical particle that can be used to improve your magical items. Regardless of what this currency is (souls, crystals, plants, monster parts), PCs can then complete a certain ritual to improve their magic items, for a cost.

Mechanically, it is exactly the same: instead of selling their +1 sword to buy a +2 sword, they pay in [insert currency] to improve it, and instead of it being in town, they actually are in [whatever place you need to be at for the ritual].

This is what I'd do. I actually run most of my games without currency these days, since I feel like it's just an abstraction that only ever really needs to be used for RP. For that, I assume they have enough money for things like inns, food and transit, but items aren't really bought in shops, they tend to be quest rewards, and upgrades at shops usually require some kind of quest as well.

yougi
2012-10-08, 07:53 PM
[PC raises sword to Druid circle in front of the biggest tree of the forest]

PC: "O wisest elder shamans, perform the Ritual of the Flaming Blade, infuse my weapon with the power of fire, to vanquish Baron Von Evil and his minions!" :smallcool:

Druid: [wryly examines sword] "Seven grand. Take it or leave it"

PC: "But... I have no-"

Druid: "You some kinda retarded? Listen, kid, we got bills to pay, and we 'aint exactly running a charity here. Cough up the dough, or get out, 'fore I have Smokey here pull yer head off" [motions with head toward a rather fierce-looking Dire Bear]

PC: :smallfrown:

The idea was actually to take out actual currencies and use some kind of material that would be necessary for the ritual to be completed.

Sith_Happens
2012-10-08, 08:50 PM
The idea was actually to take out actual currencies and use some kind of material that would be necessary for the ritual to be completed.

The "currency" could just be story progress. As in, once they've gotten to the level where they would have enough money to upgrade their weapon, they instead acquire some means of upgrading for free.

Toofey
2012-10-09, 09:45 AM
You should also consider the things that would immediately become extremely valuable in this circumstance.

Books about farming, (really books about any task that people have forgotten how to do without magic)

Flint stones (it gets a lot harder to start a fire)

simple tools (a tiller, rope etc...)

yougi
2012-10-11, 12:52 AM
The "currency" could just be story progress. As in, once they've gotten to the level where they would have enough money to upgrade their weapon, they instead acquire some means of upgrading for free.

Yes, basically. However, giving them a budget gives them the freedom of investing it as they wish, something the OP asked for. Do you invest this 6000 destiny points (or whatever) in making your +1 scimitar a +1 keen scimitar, or into upgrading your ring of protection +1 to +2, or do you enchant your cloak to become a +2 cloak of Charisma, then improve 6 potions of cure light to cure moderate, and save the rest for when you'll be able to upgrade your full plate to +3? That's all in your own hands.