Adding more fuel to the Dragonwrought Kobold Debate

[Dusk Eclipse]

Something interesting I found while checking Dragon Magic, as per 87 of the Book (Dragonpacts) Dragonwrought Kobolds ARE True dragons
From the Creating a Dragonpact sub-heading


To make a dragonpact, a sorcerer of 4th level or higher (that is, a character with a t least four levels of sorcerer) must undertake a mystical ceremony in which he establishes a mental contact with a true dragon (that is a dragon with twelve age categories, such as a red dragon)...


Emphasis mine

Playground discuss.

(For the record I am of the opinion of Dragonwrought Kobolds being True Dragons; but not given them access to Sovereign Archetypes)

[Darius Kane]

How... exactly does that prove anything?
And why would you start this flame-fest again? :smallannoyed:

[Duboris]

If you put your hand near your ear, you can practically hear a devil, imp, pit fiend, whatever the hell it is, screaming "MORE! MORE!"

[Dusk Eclipse]

To the best of my knowledge Dragon Magic is the most recent book with some sort of reference to True Dragons and thus the most recent source on them. And I don't want to start a flame fest, I honestly want the opinions of the playground on this little tidbit of information.

[Duboris]

To the best of my knowledge Dragon Magic is the most recent book with some sort of reference to True Dragons and thus the most recent source on them. And I don't want to start a flame fest, I honestly want the opinions of the playground on this little tidbit of information.

You will.

They won't be friendly.

[Darius Kane]

But how does that prove ANYTHING? We already know that True Dragons have twelve age categories. This doesn't really give any new information.
This is going to be a flame-war like all the other DWK threads, wether you intend it or not. Unless people will know better and won't post, which is impossible.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I don't, that is why I am asking.

[toapat]

it doesnt work alone

you have to form a bond with another creature, just because you qualify as that creature, doesnt mean you can bypass the requires 2

[Dusk Eclipse]

I am not trying to use a Dragonwrought Kobold to form a Dragonpact...

[Answerer]

Strict RAW? Being printed first is actually the source that is "primary" -- all following sources are assumed to be in error when the contradict the primary source. Go on, check the errata rules. The only reason Draconomicon and Races of the Dragon become any argument at all is because they claim specific exception: they state that they supercede previous books.

Since I don't see anything in your quote that says it supersedes Races of the Dragon, anything in Dragon Magic that contratdicts Races of the Dragon is an error.


Moreover, this argument has gone beyond absurd. It's very clear that Wizards considered the official definition of a True Dragon to be based on having twelve age categories (which dragonwrought kobolds did). It's equally clear that Wizards did not consider the dragonwrought kobold a True Dragon. The only possible conclusion is that Wizards of the Coast did not pay careful attention to what they were doing and made a mistake.

So go on, rule it anyway you like. But don't try to claim RAW support; you don't have it. No one does. The RAW is just not ever going to be clear.

[Morithias]

Hmm I see what you're trying to say. By this reading one can argue that although the dragonwrought kobold is powerful, it does not give you 12 age categories....it still has the original middle-age, old, etc. Meaning the if one uses this sentence, one can argue this states that a Dragonwrought Kobold is not a true dragon.

Is that what you were trying to ask the forum the opinion on?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Strict RAW? Being printed first is actually the source that is "primary" -- all following sources are assumed to be in error when the contradict the primary source. Go on, check the errata rules. The only reason Draconomicon and Races of the Dragon become any argument at all is because they claim specific exception: they state that they supercede previous books.

Since I don't see anything in your quote that says it supersedes Races of the Dragon, anything in Dragon Magic that contratdicts Races of the Dragon is an error.


Moreover, this argument has gone beyond absurd. It's very clear that Wizards considered the official definition of a True Dragon to be based on having twelve age categories (which dragonwrought kobolds did). It's equally clear that Wizards did not consider the dragonwrought kobold a True Dragon. The only possible conclusion is that Wizards of the Coast did not pay careful attention to what they were doing and made a mistake.

So go on, rule it anyway you like. But don't try to claim RAW support; you don't have it. No one does. The RAW is just not ever going to be clear.

I see, I was indeed unclear on the Errata rules and you are right on that account.


Hmm I see what you're trying to say. By this reading one can argue that although the dragonwrought kobold is powerful, it does not give you 12 age categories....it still has the original middle-age, old, etc. Meaning the if one uses this sentence, one can argue this states that a Dragonwrought Kobold is not a true dragon.

Is that what you were trying to ask the forum the opinion on?

Not really, as I said I am of the opinion on DWK being true dragons, I wanted to know if the quote from Dragon Magic would help me to strengthen my point. Though as always I am always interested in the playground general opinions.

[Morithias]

Not really, as I said I am of the opinion on DWK being true dragons, I wanted to know if the quote from Dragon Magic would help me to strengthen my point. Though as always I am always interested in the playground general opinions.

No offense but if you didn't want opinions that counter yours, why bring up a piece of evidence which is against your opinion....that seems unwise or at least backwards in thinking.

Oh well. I've never seen someone play a Kobold in my D&D group except for that one time I talked the DM into letting me play Pun-pun on the basis that I never use a spell (basically my fighting style revolved around summoning alchemy objects out of thin air and terraforming the terrain)

[Dusk Eclipse]

No offense but if you didn't want opinions that counter yours, why bring up a piece of evidence which is against your opinion....that seems unwise or at least backwards in thinking.

Oh well. I've never seen someone play a Kobold in my D&D group except for that one time I talked the DM into letting me play Pun-pun on the basis that I never use a spell (basically my fighting style revolved around summoning alchemy objects out of thin air and terraforming the terrain)

No offence taken; but how does showing that apparently twelve age categories and dragon type, two qualities which DWK have, is counter point to mine? The way I read the medium, old, venerable table in RoTD was a way to shorhand when did the character got the bonus to mental stats.

[Duboris]

They won't be friendly.

[Darius Kane]

I don't understand how this is even a new argument.

[Dusk Eclipse]

They won't be friendly.

So far people have been at the very least civil.

[Duboris]

All jokes aside, of course, I don't see why this is such an important, overly-had argument.

Why exactly do we *want* Dragonwrought Kobolds to be considered true dragons?

Can't we just use normal, true dragons?






Oh right. Internet. That'd be too easy.

[Dusk Eclipse]

All jokes aside, of course, I don't see why this is such an important, overly-had argument.

Why exactly do we *want* Dragonwrought Kobolds to be considered true dragons?

Can't we just use normal, true dragons?
Oh right. Internet. That'd be too easy.

Because it creates interesting rules interactions and in my case because I love Kobolds and like making them more powerful (Pun-pun isn't an argument to say kobolds are powerful, it can be done with any race and being Kobold just speeds up the process and was done originally for the irony of the weakest race giving birth to the most powerful character)

[dextercorvia]

Strict RAW? Being printed first is actually the source that is "primary" -- all following sources are assumed to be in error when the contradict the primary source.

That is not actually what Primary source means.


When the text within a product contradicts itself,
our general policy is that the primary source (actual
rules text) is correct and any secondary reference
(such as a table or character's statistics block) is
incorrect. Exceptions to the rule will be called out
specifically.


Another example of primary vs. secondary sources
involves book and topic precedence. The Player's
Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing
the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class
descriptions. If you find something on one of those
topics from the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide or the
Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's
Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is
the primary source. The DUNGEON MASTER's Guide is the
primary source for topics such as magic item
descriptions, special material construction rules, and so
on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for
monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural,
extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.

Primary Source has nothing to do with publishing date, and everything to do with being the preeminent rules text on the issue.

As far as publishing date goes, it is actually the most recent version (from among the books that your group plays with) that takes precedence. This applies to things like PrCs, feats, spells, etc.

[Duboris]

Because it creates interesting rules interactions and in my case because I love Kobolds and like making them more powerful (Pun-pun isn't an argument to say kobolds are powerful, it can be done with any race and being Kobold just speeds up the process and was done originally for the irony of the weakest race giving birth to the most powerful character)

So you're basically trying to sate your thirst for making the weakest race in the game the strongest by making it a true dragon, just for the sake of having something so ridiculously small so ridiculously capable of killing everything it sees?

And just like that I've lost all interest.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: I had to close the last one of these because it became a flamewar, and I don't see any reason that it should be restarted.

Also, one doesn't add fuel to a debate...so, bit of a Freudian slip there.