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View Full Version : Moral dilemma for my character (3.5/PF)



Thump
2012-10-06, 11:01 PM
So. I have an issue with my character. He's felt like he's been betrayed by his own god, which is in the spoiler below for an explanation. He's stuck between three things; madness, full-conversion, and falling (or rising, in this case.)

He's been an antipaladin of Asmodeus for what humans would consider a short time, about twenty or thirty years. For a bit of background, the demons had finally realized that simply assaulting the gates of Hell would not work, and that they needed something different. They began creating tieflings, one of which is my character, a half-demon tiefling. He escaped, after they found him "inferior", and he fled, eventually ending up in Hell. He was taken in by an interested greater devil, and raised as an antipaladin. On his mission to be promoted to what we could consider a Lieutenant, or a slightly-greater devil in their eyes, he was not told key information; he could not actually kill anything in the Paladinic temple.

This led to him being captured and placed in an extraplanar prison, along with the other party members, who were there for their own reasons.

Being Lawful Evil, he wasn't supposed to trust anyone there, and he had no real friends. However, he started losing his grip on that over the five years he was imprisoned. We broke out of the prison, and we landed in another world.

(Here's where it gets interesting.)

We decide to get ourselves on our feet and we begin to do bounty hunter work for the Strix. We landed conveniently near their capital, where humans were hunted as food. (None of us were human.) We went to the bounty office, and we found a bandit camp who had been causing trouble. Naturally, we took it.

We took the camp easily, but before that, our Strix rogue (one of the PCs) was struck by a major artifact, basically a super-Strix-dread arrow, where it cursed the entire family of the Strix struck to die in 6 months. We found out that it was none other than my character's god, Asmodeus, who in this setting, was also the PATRON GOD OF THE STRIX, who created the arrow and imbued it with the power to kill his own people.

The problem?

Well, the Strix originated from one egg. This meant that the entire bloody race would die in 6 months. Now, my character isn't sure, but he's fairly certain that this is some sort of deific crime.

No sooner after this was found out, there was multiple swarms of Hellwasps after him, trying to kill him.

Now, since there's this little problem that Asmodeus knows that my character is losing faith (He became Neutral Evil after these events), I'm likely to fall soon. The DM has brought up that if this happens, he can change his class levels (5 levels of antipaladin) to something more fitting. Now, I'm not certain what would happen.

Option A: He goes bat**** crazy. He loses his sanity (He has a loose grasp on it to begin with), and changes to something else. I'm not sure what fits, but he basically loses his marshal and antipaladin levels and changes them with something else.

His current stat array is 22 STR, 10 DEX, 14 CON, 10 INT, 8 WIS, 24 CHA with 5 levels of antipaladin and 1 level of marshal.

Option 2: He converts to a paladin, realizing he has hope in saving his friend and his race while exterminating the bastards who betrayed the deific laws.

Option 3: He falls. I'm not sure what will happen then, but he loses his (anti)paladinhood, and something happens that I'm not sure of.


For a short personality description, he's trusting and friendly, but utterly merciless and cruel to those who bring his wrath upon them. (He slit the throat of one of the party members who failed to CDG him in his sleep for a minor threat). He's got an ego so freaking large, and an evil aura so strong that the DM ruled it to actually be overwhelming. However, he's losing the merciless and cruel edge, as he starts being more trusting and friendly to his partymates.


What classes should I consider, and what should I do here, Playground? I'm not sure where to go with him, and I've spent most of my weekend thinking about this, and I'm stuck. Any help would be appreciated.

ryu
2012-10-06, 11:32 PM
Neutral evil sorceror casts off of cha last I checked. From there take the whole evil isn't one big happy family route to justify the fight with your old god and also go with evil not meaning without friends. You can still be a complete threat to people you don't even know while being nice to friends and fighting the great bearded one.

Duboris
2012-10-06, 11:32 PM
What weapon do you fancy yourself currently using, or using in the near future, and what feats would you lose/gain in the process of the anti-paladin to new class switch?

Twilightwyrm
2012-10-07, 12:00 AM
Wait a second, he was a servant of Asmodeus and he wasn't expecting to get betrayed at some point? Or is it the whole "deific genocide" thing that makes him "feel" betrayed by Asmodeus? Because unless Asmodeus actually condoned the use of the artifact in that manner, evil as h may be, it is not his fault. If he did, well that's bad, but wait for a moment: You character is operating as an Antipaladin of Asmodeus, a being that is devoted himself to both destroying all demons (constituting "deific genocide"), potentially any and all angels (depending on the setting, but also constituting "deific genocide"), has been responsible for the rise of many tyrants on the material plane, some of which have no doubt perpetuated genocides of their own, and just to hammer the point home, you are operating without moral compunction in an area where humans are dehumanized to the point of being treated like livestock. I get that the guy is his friend, and more to the point I get that he has an ego on him, (hence he's more likely to take these things personally) and that his wisdom and intelligence isn't so high, so he might not have as wide perspective as this, but come on. He serves the archdevil of archdevils, an archdevil who may well like nothing better than to see your characters entire race exterminated (due to their allegiance to the demon hordes). He really wasn't expecting something like this to occur?

navar100
2012-10-07, 12:05 AM
Does the campaign require a deity patron to be an antipaladin? If not you could remain your class just not have a patron. Vengeance is your cause.

If you must change classes, try an Oracle of Battle Mystery. Even if that still requires a divine patron, you don't have to know or actively worship any one particular deity. Oracles don't need holy symbols. Other deities are aware of what Asmodeus has done and are fighting against him, using you as their Champion. Your Oracle Curse is the result of the switch and makes perfect sense when you consider that only a deity could remove said Curse. Most fitting would probably be Haunted, spirit servants of Asmodeus trying to hamper you. Your unknown divine patron(s) protect you from them but can't completely, the Curse's effect.

Thump
2012-10-07, 12:24 AM
Wait a second, he was a servant of Asmodeus and he wasn't expecting to get betrayed at some point? Or is it the whole "deific genocide" thing that makes him "feel" betrayed by Asmodeus? Because unless Asmodeus actually condoned the use of the artifact in that manner, evil as h may be, it is not his fault. If he did, well that's bad, but wait for a moment: You character is operating as an Antipaladin of Asmodeus, a being that is devoted himself to both destroying all demons (constituting "deific genocide"), potentially any and all angels (depending on the setting, but also constituting "deific genocide"), has been responsible for the rise of many tyrants on the material plane, some of which have no doubt perpetuated genocides of their own, and just to hammer the point home, you are operating without moral compunction in an area where humans are dehumanized to the point of being treated like livestock. I get that the guy is his friend, and more to the point I get that he has an ego on him, (hence he's more likely to take these things personally) and that his wisdom and intelligence isn't so high, so he might not have as wide perspective as this, but come on. He serves the archdevil of archdevils, an archdevil who may well like nothing better than to see your characters entire race exterminated (due to their allegiance to the demon hordes). He really wasn't expecting something like this to occur?

What I mean, is he's the patron of the race he's trying to exterminate.

Strix. Their patron god in our setting is Asmodeus, also god of the devils. He's trying to kill his own worshipers, and not just kill, exterminate them. The magic would destroy their souls.

Also, he's served for almost thirty years without anything happening to him. He's actually been on fairly good terms with a lot of his superiors, even considering his demonic origins. He had lead a few assaults, in his backstory, on minor encampments in the Abyss, killing his own people to prove his loyalty, and he's been betrayed!



As for his weapons, he specializes in two-handed fighting with a Keen Falchion, channeling smites all day to put enemies down hard. He'd be losing Channel Smite and Greater Touch of Corruption (Reverse of Greater Mercy which DM made, it deals an extra d6 of damage or healing to Undead, which my character has affinity to negative energy for.)

I could potentially see Sorcerer, since we lost our caster, but it wouldn't fit with his front-line fighting. Oracle of Battle wouldn't fit either, since we already have one. (We lost our Wizard.)

We have to have deities to be paladins or antipaladins. We can't just be one for a cause, it's too vague, according to the DM.

Duboris
2012-10-07, 12:31 AM
Here's a fancy idea.


Why not pick another devil? One specifically Above, or very near, Asmodeus?

lucky9
2012-10-07, 01:07 AM
Between him becoming more and more loyal to his party members and going to great lengths to prove his loyalty to his superiors, it sounds like his alignment shift could have been towards lawful neutral. Which would have set him up for one more shift to lawful good(paladin). But from what you described, paladinhood isn't a path he would ever take. On the other hand being betrayed and deciding to work against your superiors is a step towards chaos i.e. his shift to neutral evil. This set him up for the insanity route which would be another shift to chaotic evil. And possibly a further shift to chaotic neutral because of his loyalty to his party. But that depends on whether he sticks his neck out for them because it earns him potential return favors, or because he actually cares for them. Finally, this:
Why not pick another devil? One specifically Above, or very near, Asmodeus? And his alignment stays lawful evil. Or, if he goes chaotic: work for demons.

Duboris
2012-10-07, 01:23 AM
Just because someone's lawfully evil doesn't mean he can't be nice to his party members. Saving someone's ass because it benefits you is justified evil thinking, assuming, well, they aren't on the brink of *definately* dieing.

I mean on most of my lawfully evil characters I seperate myself from the group alot, if only for the sake of causing them more trouble, and then turning around to help them from the trouble I made. Does it make me look like I'm a good character? Of course it does. Do any of them think I was the one that summoned the 4 earth elementals that happened to be trap floors? Of course not.

More to the point, staying lawfully evil wouldn't hurt, especially if that new abyssal lord has a bone to pick with Asmodeus.

An Enemy Spy
2012-10-07, 01:25 AM
This is why evil characters are awesome. Whenever there's an ethical dilemma, the answer is always BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

Twilightwyrm
2012-10-07, 02:53 AM
What I mean, is he's the patron of the race he's trying to exterminate.

Strix. Their patron god in our setting is Asmodeus, also god of the devils. He's trying to kill his own worshipers, and not just kill, exterminate them. The magic would destroy their souls.

Also, he's served for almost thirty years without anything happening to him. He's actually been on fairly good terms with a lot of his superiors, even considering his demonic origins. He had lead a few assaults, in his backstory, on minor encampments in the Abyss, killing his own people to prove his loyalty, and he's been betrayed!

Well Asmodeus wouldn't be looking to exterminate him specifically, because he is still useful to him. But his kind in general? Yeah. And as far as the Stix are concerned? Yes, they are his worshipers, and yes, it might in theory go against his interests to destroy their souls (souls, are after all, a source of power for devils). But, this is still Asmodeus, and if it meets his greater goals, than likely he does not care. Remember, this guy is evil, arguably the most evil thing in the multiverse. Evil, even lawful evil, only values loyalty, competence, even alignment, only insomuch as it furthers its own goals. Evil isn't a team in a cosmic war, and being evil isn't as simply as having a license to mistreat good and neutral people. It is a classification of people and beings that behave in an evil fashion. If you want a side to value loyalty or competence, you look to the good or sometimes neutral factions. For your character to become incredulous at being betrayed, and possibly killed, by a cosmic representation of, among other things, murder and betrayal, strikes me as indicating me might not have fully understood what he was getting into when he started serving Asmodeus.

Thump
2012-10-07, 11:40 PM
Hrm... After a bit of thought, I could see my character sticking more towards seeking vengeance towards Asmodeus and those who betrayed him. I mean, he's pissed off now. He may fall, but taking levels of Crusader and focusing on an ideal; vengeance, would suit him. The vengeance would include spiting his former God by undoing his attempts (saving his friend) and then proceeding to unleash the fury on them.

Would Crusader work here? I like the idea of Steely Resolve + Furious Counterstrike. Someone smacks him? He doesn't notice until after he's done pasting you, and he might not even notice it then.

(I'm liking this more and more as I write this.)

Telonius
2012-10-08, 09:15 AM
Option 4 - report the occurrence directly to Asmodeus. The Strix are obviously going to be in a real bind now, and could be very willing to cut some sort of a deal to prevent their destruction. I'm certain Asmodeus would offer very fair terms. :smallamused: