Need a leader who can defend for a small party

[Vallum]

Right what it says on the tin.

The party is Level 5, and the adventure is set in Forgotten Realms. The only stable members that show up consistently is a Bow Ranger, (not optimized), and a Orb Wizard, (good at optimizing). Our rogue just dropped, and the Paladin('s) are inconsistent at showing up.

Point-buy, but normal gear for 5th level (so lvl+1, lvl, and lvl-1 for magic items, and lvl-1 equal to gp).

The optimization is overall on the low end, and we need someone who can take hits and lead my allies to victory. I was a Pacifist Cleric, but we found that either I shut down encounters, or get focused down when combat starts.

Thoughts/help are appreciated :smallsmile:

[vasharanpaladin]

Warlord, Battlefront Leader, Armored Warlord feat. Grab powers that give defensive buffs.

Alternately, runepriest, pick up plate armor, and abuse Rune of Protection effects. :smallbiggrin:

[Tegu8788]

Cleric with Battle lore get's Scale plus a free +2 shield bonus, so it can use a two-handed weapon.

Are hybrids allowed? If so, I can do some wonderful things.

[Vallum]

Are hybrids allowed? If so, I can do some wonderful things.

Yarp, because this is a WotC event, I can run any legal... BUT! I cannot take from other campaign settings, as this one is supposed to be Forgotten Realms specific, (unless WotC gives me the clear on allowing other campaign settings like Dark Sun or Ebberon).

My party does wish to take our party to higher levels, so anything that will also stand the test of time will be swell. I like to be able to fill in what we need, as we need a leader and defender, but our Ranger doesn't do well with striking power, (the player still asks what her characters attack bonus is or how much damage to deal).
Our Wixard, though grasping what is good and what is bad, doesn't know to hold back encounter powers to ease the DM reigns, (i.e. dropping and clearing an encounter's worth of minions made the DM unwilling to use minions, and something I'm having a hard time advocating to him to use in other ways)

The DM I'm training won't allow me to supplement our small party with another character, so I may have to take a controlled power build, i.e. am able to hold back and still help the party, but able to take on challenges that head my way in case a really tough encounter storms our way.
For example, the problem with the Pacifist Cleric I had was a very either-or with choices: either I acted and shut down encounters by negating damage or dropping a power, or I held back and allowed the enemies to overwhelm me and the party.

[vasharanpaladin]

...Okay, wow, I really don't know how to help without making this an even bigger pain. Try going the other way around? Defender with buffs/heals? Cha-focused paladins can do that pretty decently...

[Tegu8788]

Then may I suggest the Cleric|Paladin?



my favourite was Cleric / Paladin, WIS/CHA based.
Astral Seal for the cleric at will, Enfeebling strike for the Paladin (unless there's one that grants you temp hp, can't remember). Went human to pick up Sacred Flame as well.

change turn undead for Healer's Mercy.
AW: sacred flame, astral seal, enfeebling strike
Enc: Righteous Smite or Divine Glow
Util: Bastion of Health (enc grant surge one)
D: beacon of hope

At paragon you take Hospitaler and your mark + beacon starts really tossing out crazy healing. This build was an amazing healer all round and he could fight in melee or laser however he liked. I multiclassed as well later for invoker to pick up another utility or channel divinity power I think.

Since the Paladin mark can be applied at range, punished at ranged, and maintained with any attack, this would allow you to play a Leader most of the time while still functioning as a Defender. As I suggested above, use Battle Lore to get scale armor plus shield bonus, and spend your hybrid talent on something besides armor.

[OACSNY97]

My group- probably low/medium op (we took the best choice of whatever fit a character's overall theme) had a Tiefling Valorous Bard who abused War Song Strike and a song glaive (for the weapliment powers) and functioned ok as an off tank.



Right what it says on the tin.

The party is Level 5, and the adventure is set in Forgotten Realms. The only stable members that show up consistently is a Bow Ranger, (not optimized), and a Orb Wizard, (good at optimizing). Our rogue just dropped, and the Paladin('s) are inconsistent at showing up.

Point-buy, but normal gear for 5th level (so lvl+1, lvl, and lvl-1 for magic items, and lvl-1 equal to gp).

The optimization is overall on the low end, and we need someone who can take hits and lead my allies to victory. I was a Pacifist Cleric, but we found that either I shut down encounters, or get focused down when combat starts.

Thoughts/help are appreciated :smallsmile:

[Vallum]

Then may I suggest the Cleric|Paladin?
*jawesome notes*

I tried to fight it, but I agree: divine power source classes can pull the kind of miracles no other power source could. I play paladins too much, in the past, for other groups...

But I'll get over it :smallsmile:

If I went Half-elf, what power with dilettante should I go with?

[Tegu8788]

Eldritch Strike is a favorite to grap if you have a solid Con or Cha score. This (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19649022/Half-elf_Dilettante_Resource.) is outdated, but it may be helpful.

If you don't want to be a Paladin, then Blackguard|Cleric might be more fun. You lose the marking feature but can use powers to gain access to stronger marks, and you have features that support damage while maintaining Paladin defenses. I'm not entirely sure how that would effect the power of this hybrid, but I don't see why not.

In my signature is a link to my chart full of effective hybrids. You can grab any Defender|Leader combo and it should function if Divine isn't your cup of tea for this game. Off-tanks like the Blackguard, Monk, and Barbarian may also make good choices.

And don't forget how easy it is to refluff things. Make the character Psionic, using his own will instead of Divine magic.

Edit: While not getting you away from the Paladin, if you want less divine, a Cha pure Paladin|Warlord or Paladin|Bard would also be good at Defending and Leading. Primal characters tend to be more Defender leaning, so perhaps a Shaman can be of some use to you.

[Astral Avenger]

I believe there is a lvl 5 version of Pun Pun the Kobold, but I'm not sure if its purely WotC material. Also I'll give you 8:1 odds that the DM won't allow Pun Pun.

[Vallum]

Looking at your Spreadsheet Tegu, I liked the idea of a Knight/Runepriest... But I forgot where to find the ruling for hybrid essential classes, (if they were even made)

[Mistwing]

Looking at your Spreadsheet Tegu, I liked the idea of a Knight/Runepriest... But I forgot where to find the ruling for hybrid essential classes, (if they were even made)

PHB3 my freind.
And I have actually tried some of those Hybrids (such as the cleric/paladin) and it is rather glorious. Nothing like healing wounds by inflicting them on the enemy. Eye for an eye. Quite literally in this case. I actually built a rather fun fluffed character around that. Ilmater, my freind. Who said mercy had to be freindly?

If it turns out the whole thing isn't working quite as well as it should you might want to consider adjusting the campeign a little bit, as well. Avoid monsters that deal too much damage or have too much HP. Include NPC companions from time to time. Not necisarrily several DM contributions to the party that stick around indefinately. But if a lord hire's you to clear out a local menace, he could send a guard or two with you (they wouldn't be PC's but monsters on the party's side.)

so even if you find the added defender isn't quite as good as hoped, other tools can make it so.

[allonym]

PHB3 my freind.
PHB3 only contains hybrids of the pre-essentials classes.


I forgot where to find the ruling for hybrid essential classes, (if they were even made)

Hybrid essentials classes are mostly, if not exclusively, dragon magazine content. I believe that there is no hybrid knight at all, nor is there a hybrid berserker barbarian. There is a hybrid cavalier - whereas cavalier is a pretty sub-par defender, the hybrid version gets almost all of it, including the full version of its mark-equivalent, whereas a hybrid paladin's mark is much weaker.

Have you considered Artificer|Swordmage? Artificer is Ebberon, which as I noted, is perhaps problematic, but generally WOTC events such as LFR have been extremely open to the use of Ebberon material as long as it isn't to do with gods (you could even take a dragonmark or a dragonshard, but you couldn't, say, worship The Fury.).
Go Int/Con, be a shielding swordmage, take Magic Weapon, mark someone and position yourself among your allies, use a throwing weapon to use Magic Weapon, granting your allies bonuses and making the enemy have a hard time engaging you, increasing the chance your mark will go off. You might be relatively low on healing, which is probably the only problem, but that was inevitable with playing a hybrid leader.

[tcrudisi]

I'd go with a Runepriest. You'll have very good defenses and you won't have that feeling of cheese that goes along with playing a Battle Cleric Lore cleric. You won't be great at defending, but you can boost up your allies defenses, and that's functionally similar.* Furthermore, you can put out some good damage with it, and it looks like you'll need that in this party. My low-level Runepriest was doing some very good damage while being extremely tough to hit and making his allies better. And it was a heck of a lot of fun, especially if you describe what your powers do rather than just say "I'm using power x."

I am a bit biased since the Runepriest is one of my favorite classes. The Runepriest is just so much fun, especially since every power has two options for you to choose from. You can mix or match defense/offense depending on the needs at that moment.

I say that it's functionally similar because what does a defender do? They impose a penalty to attack their allies (same as giving those allies a bonus to defense) while also giving a secondary incentive: usually damage. Runepriests can't do the extra damage until paragon tier, but they still have a great secondary incentive in the form of "I'm the healer, if you don't take me down first, I'll just get my allies back up."

[Tegu8788]

Looking at your Spreadsheet Tegu, I liked the idea of a Knight/Runepriest... But I forgot where to find the ruling for hybrid essential classes, (if they were even made)

Dragon Magazine 400 has most of them, but as said, some fun ones are missing, like the berserker, elementalist, and hexblade. If its on the chart you can make a hybrid out of it. The ones I've found love for are specced out, a work in progress.

I would also give love to a Fighter|Runepriest, or pure Runepriest, depending on how much Defending to Leading you need. If its just occasional Defending, there may be a way to get a Mark using a theme, MC feat, racial punishment power, or item.

[Vallum]

Dragon Magazine 400

Thanks, bruddah


I would also give love to a Fighter|Runepriest, or pure Runepriest, depending on how much Defending to Leading you need

I noticed while googling that the R|F combo was one of the first that that pop'd up, (dat Dreadnaught PP). While I liked it, I thought a Knight might be more sticky than Fighter, so I wanted to look into, say, what I would lose in a hybrid with Knight, and compare it to what I would lose from full-to-hybrid Fighter, to see if one or the other can help me fill that void of 'herp no defender or leader derp'.

[allonym]

Could you tell me where the Knight hybrid is to be found? I had previously believed that it was not a possibility.

[Tegu8788]

I can't seem to find it now. It may have been something someone homebrewed and through up online, I looks through a lot of forums and if it looked good I added it to the chart. I could have sworn when I checked the compendium it had a hybrid knight, but I'm not seeing it now. Odd.

[Vallum]

I can't seem to find it now. It may have been something someone homebrewed and through up online, I looks through a lot of forums and if it looked good I added it to the chart. I could have sworn when I checked the compendium it had a hybrid knight, but I'm not seeing it now. Odd.

I was scouring Dragon Magazine #400 and could not find the Knight Hybrid. :smallfrown:

[tarlison]

Hmm an artificer/swordmage might be nice :-) although healing capabilities might be severly weaken :) but still it should prove interesting :)

[Tegu8788]

I must have made an error, someone else did it as a prank. It's open to anyone to edit, I know I've had to add several strikers back in. I recently changed things so its easier to read and harder to vandalize. I'm at work and can't fix it right now.

But back to the point, the arcane option is a valid one that's not divine, though it may not do as well in a small group. The swordmage doesn't defend in the classical sense, and the artificer has a very unique way of healing. Buffs would be plentiful though.

Sticking non-divine classes you have Battlemind|Ardent is pretty hardy and doesn't lose any power points. A Battlemind|Shaman or Sentinel has some fun flavor to them. And a Lazylord can be paired with just about anything. The Bard also has a good set of powers for melee, ranged, or casting. You can defend allies by keeping them away from monsters.


I think a clarification may help. Do you want to be a defending leader, or a leader that can tank? You seem like you want to have Leader be your primary, and I come from a Defender heavy mindset, so my advice may need some tinkering to work for you. I think healing could be the ultimate Defender trick. "So, I debuff you and you missed my friend, now you feel my pain!" "Hey, you managed to actually hit him this time. Pain for you, and I heal that cut you just made! Ha!"


Thought that just occurred to me. A Valorous Bard is good in melee I believe, and would have the Cha, Int, and Con to get MC feats in Paladin, Swordmage, and maybe Warden and Battlemind. Grab feats that let you poach Marks, and you've got a Leader that can Defend in a pinch. It means you lose out on a lot of tricks for your role if you get them all, but its something.

[Vallum]

I think a clarification may help. Do you want to be a defending leader, or a leader that can tank? You seem like you want to have Leader be your primary, and I come from a Defender heavy mindset, so my advice may need some tinkering to work for you.

I can play it as either-or, as I will need what will help the party best.
BUT!
I think I can play defender with a side of healer, though, as we need someone who can defend ALLOT more than we need a leader, with how are party composition is. Our Wizard did take the multi-class feat for Cleric, so he has taken a load out of what I need to fulfill as a leader, emergency-wise.

But I am interested in how a Hybrid Runepriest|Fighter will work, and if he can be sticky enough to fill in for a lack of a dedicated defender... Heck, is their a defender that can fill in the gap in such a small party without a dedicated Leader?

[Tegu8788]

Well, as much as I hate to say it, Paladin. You got the Divine (read Leader leaning) Defender. Fighter|Runepriest is about half as sticky as a normal Fighter. You will only be able to mark with your Fighter powers, but you aren't missing out too much in HP or AC. Your Hybrid Talent can be spent on actual fun features not just armor. You can focus on Str and second in Con. The Runic States will allow you even greater flexibility as a hybrid. I would recommend Wrathful Hammer, because it boosts your damage output when you are hit, which, as a defender, you should be often, and dead enemies don't hurt your allies.

Or use Defiant Word and a wis secondary, using it to boost riders from both classes, as well as stickiness.

I attach a build I found online below, as a sample of what's possible. Flavor was a heavy influence, so don't feel limited.


I'm hesitant to contribute to this thread, as the idea is surprisingly effective hybrids. I'm not sure my hybrid is very surprising. He is a very effective jack-of-all-trades, master of none.

He is a human from the Wolfstone dynasty. He was sent to live with the dwarves that helped defend the Wall and extend their tunnels from their city Forgehome, as a political prisoner sent to strengthen the tender bonds growing between the two peoples. A bastard's fate. He was to learn dwarven rune magic and bring it back to teach his people once he had mastered the art. He never had the chance to go back as (at least in my back story) his people were anihilated by some unknown force. His Dwarven runemasters sent him away, warning him to hide his past and change his appearance. Feeling abandoned and rejected he become a wanderer, a brawler and a thief rejecting the gods with his tongue but always carrying a deep need to prove himself to Moradin, the god of the dwarves who had raised him. Luck would have it he was able to steal a very valuable tome of dwarven runes. Luck would also have it, that while he read over them and struggled to master them for the hundredth time a portal opened tearing him into a different world and leaving the book behind. He now tries to find a way home, etching the runes he can remember over and over again into his shield and hammer.

So, Solomon Darkruin is a human hybrid fighter l runepriest. It's not a surprising combo; humans are the best hybrid race in my opinion and both fighters and runepriests are strength based. He's only lvl 5 at the moment and probably a bit behind on the treasure curve, but anyway, here is the projection til level 11. What is pretty neat about him is he is a good secondary defender, and leader, and striker, and a decent scout and not a bad thief. Here's the build:

Solomon Darkruin, level 11
Human, Fighter|Runepriest, Hammer of Vengeance (PH3): As A runepriest I get a 1/encounter heal that either boosts all allies in a burst 5 dmg or defense; As a fighter I still have combat challenge, so my mark is very dangerous to ignore when I decide to lay it on. Armour Synergy is near perfect! Hammer of Vengence means, amongst other things, I gain Vengence Runestate, which lets me take a MBA vs an enemy that hits an ally next to me (this is especially good as I work closely in tandem with a Warden who always has everyone marked and hence they always attack him; I can defend even when I'm not marking, and out of turn attacks adds to my strikery-ness )
Runic Artistry: Wrathful Hammer: When an enemy hits me, my attacks vs that enemy get a +CON dmg bonus til end of nxt turn; Secondary striker begins here.
Hybrid Talent: Fighter Combat Talent
Fighter Combat Talent: Battlerager Vigor (Hybrid): Everytime I hit with a melee or close attack I gain +CON THPs; you can see the synergy with Wrathful Hammer: Hit me, I hit you back harder, and even if you hit me, I'm not going to feel it.
Human Power Selection: Bonus At-Will Power: Of course! Both Fighters and Runepriests have good at wills, so having 3 is awesome
Background: Last of the Breed (Last of the Breed Benefit): +1 Endurance +1 Perception; fits backstory

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 21, Con 19, Dex 13, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8.


AC: 23 Fort: 23 Reflex: 18 Will: 19
HP: 82 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 20

TRAINED SKILLS
Perception +12, Thievery +11, Endurance +16, Athletics +17, Intimidate +9: He can spot traps, shut them down, he can steal, break in, break out, he's hardy as a dwarf, can jump, climb and swim, and he can even articulate quite well when it comes to threats! Not the ultimate skill monkey, but he can participate in all elements of the game, in and out of combat.

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Arcana +5, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +6, Heal +6, History +5, Insight +6, Nature +6, Religion +5, Stealth +6, Streetwise +4

FEATS
Human: Weapon Proficiency (Craghammer): Feels dwarven, and it's a damn good one handed weapon
Level 1: Hybrid Talent: See above
Level 2: Bludgeon Expertise: Hammer Hybrid Fighters need this accuracy boost. The best plans go to waste if you can't hit anything; It also improves all his Pushes by 1
Level 4: Wolfstone Heritage: Fits Backstory for flavour goodness; Boosts Athletics and gives a pretty awesome daily stance power that means I can't be pushed around (like a dwarf) and when I'm bloodied I gain resist 5 to all dmg! That is a cool feat!
Level 6: Berserker's Fury: +2 dmg for one entire combat, nice on my multi target attacks! Plus I really wanted to train in Intimidate, so I could back up my big mouth really. Plus it fits my backstory so all good.
Level 8: Mark of Warding: Runepriests can dish out some neat defensive bonuses. his makes them even neater. And when I do Mark, because the Warden is dealing with 3 or 4 and so I have to go and pull the other two off the Wizard, this makes my Mark pretty hard to ignore.
Level 10: Hammering Iron: My OAtks Push 1, with Bludgeon expertise this becomes Push 2
Level 11: Hammer Shock: My melee basic attacks gain the rattling keyword, meaning my charges are especially nasty, as are my OAtks (see above) and my Warlord will like to choose me when giving out his commands!

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Tide of Iron: Great repositioning attack, especially with Bludgeon expertise; great for getting enemies out of my way so I can use an AP and get over to where I need to be on the battlefield with a charge. Also set up flanks, free blocked bridges, corridors etc.
Hybrid at-will 1: Word of Diminishment: I can boost my whole teams damage, great for bosses, elites and solos, or reduce someone's damage if I'm getting rained on. Great versatility
Hybrid at-will 1: Brash Strike: +2 Atk and + CON dmg! Sweet! And all I do is give CAdv... which means I'll get my Wrathful Hammer dmg if he hits me! C'mon !!! Hit me!!! The +2 makes this really accurate which is awesome!
Hybrid encounter 1: Flames of Purity: Blast 3 weapon Attack! Hehehe, some secondary controller action with that minion control! Plus it either gives a little surgeless healing or a dmg bonus to all allies in blast
Hybrid daily 1: Rune of the Undeniable Dawn: Wow! This power is really cool! Burst 3 ally friendly weapon attack and it creates a zone that lasts all encounter. All allies have +2 defenses while in zone. +3 with mark of warding. My warden loves this power!!!
Hybrid utility 2: Shield of Sacrifice: Daily two target heal. Nice in case of emergency
Hybrid encounter 3: Shield Edge Block: Interrupt -4 on attack, usually negates, and gets to attack back. Sweet for when my mark decides to hit me and i don't want him to. This class is very survivable!
Hybrid daily 5: Rain of Steel: Say hello to the striker in me! All encounter long stance that smashes anyone who starts their turn next to me! Oh boy do I love getting into the middle, droppin Rune of Undeniable Dawn with this puppy on!
Hybrid utility 6: Mighty Sprint: Sometimes you need to be somewhere!
Hybrid encounter 7: Come and Get It: Does this need any explanation?
Hybrid daily 9: Rune of Boundless Fury: Good fighter choices, but flavourwise I preferd to know more runes. And this one is a goody. I begin to dish out MBAs to my allies!
Hybrid utility 10: Shield Deflection: If you have a shield may as well be able to do cool things with it, aye?

ITEMS
Scale Armor, Javelin, Thieves' Tools, Backpack (empty), Torch (10), Flint and Steel, Belt Pouch (empty), Dwarven Scale Armor +1: Of course!, Avalanche Hammer Craghammer +1: Some puch into my charge!, Fighting Shield Light Shield (heroic tier), Spidersilk Mantle +1: To climb the unclimbable, Giantkind Gloves (heroic tier): Makes for a decent damage RBA, making those Javelins up there a lot more dangerous

[Vallum]

It looks like I will be rolling up a Paladin who utilizes some light Radiant vulnerability for himself to use and abuse to bring a big portion of defending, with side of striking and leading. (or Fighter|Cleric, in case my DM is sick and tired of Paladins)

I know of Virtuous Strike & Power of the Sun, and the Morninglord PrC... But I would like to take something else for my PP, but have no qualms in spending feats to up my damage, (trying to remember other feats to take, I think I'll google-fu a bit to find something).

[Tegu8788]

You are quickly leaving my area of knowledge, but I throw this to you. Get a Sunblade.

[allonym]

For chaladins, seeing as you won't need to be hugely defendery with a small party, the ever-awesome Questing Knight can hit the bench. If you want to concentrate on being leadery, Hospitaller is right there. In addition to your usual mark punishment, the ally who was the target of the triggering attack gets healed (1/2 level+wis mod, if memory serves). Worth mentioning is that the Hospitaller healing-on-mark-violation only works for your Divine Challenge, not Divine Sanction.

This is incidentally pretty similar to the Shielding Swordmage mark punishment (but no-one takes any other kind). The shielding swordmage prevents instead of healing, but either works. Both effects cancel damage, frustrating your marked enemy while taking the heat off of the leader (or making up for its absence). However, it does mean less damage because your mark punishment isn't punching them in the face like a fighter would. The advantage of the Hospitaller here is that he still does his actual Divine Challenge damage as well as his Hospitaller's Blessing healing.

Honestly, a Hospitaller Paladin concentrating on Radiant Vulnerability basically builds itself unless you want to utilise a trick of some kind. The only thing is that until you hit paragon you might be feeling the heat in terms of healing (the Hospitaller's Blessing comes online at level 11). Also, a hospitaller gets a huge amount out of wisdom, so you will definitely be wanting to emphasise wisdom over constitution - and it might restrict your racial choice somewhat (Deva, Kalashtar and, uh...Hamadryad?) if you wanted to really emphasise that, but there's nothing wrong with some Constitution - afterall, you'll be spending your own surges on Lay on Hands.

The Swordmage|Artificer I mentioned earlier would be much trickier to build, and would have an extremely unorthodox defending style - mark someone, stand behind your allies and use thrown weapons, buff your allies and watch as the enemy attack is rendered pitiful by your mark - but has the advantage of being ready to do its thing from level 1.

[Leolo]

You could also try a bard.

It doesn't have that much defender like powers, but it has a lot of powers that move an enemy arround. Combined with the orb wizard (who has many powers that create zones, prevent the enemy from moving or push them arround) this could compensate for the stickyness of a defender.

Also bards have some good debuffs so you could also make up for the lack of marks. (In fact there are even bard powers that mark an enemy)

[Vallum]

The only thing is that until you hit paragon you might be feeling the heat in terms of healing (the Hospitaller's Blessing comes online at level 11).

Probably multiclass Cleric then, for another heal under my belt.

[Tegu8788]

Remember, MC feats only give a daily heal. But in that vein, suggesting that anyone that can gets a Leader MC will help, and it would behoove you to buy as many healing potions as possible. Spread the healing around, and recommend everyone look for utilities that heal.

[tcrudisi]

Remember, MC feats only give a daily heal. But in that vein, suggesting that anyone that can gets a Leader MC will help, and it would behoove you to buy as many healing potions as possible. Spread the healing around, and recommend everyone look for utilities that heal.

Unless you splurge for the shaman MC. It takes two feats, but the heal it gives is 1/enc instead of 1/day.

Also, I'm going to chime in. I note that the OP said above that the defender is a more important role than the leader. I'd like to disagree. In a small group, having someone who can heal and be a good team player is more important than having someone who can take an extra hit. Think about it this way: your defenses might be 2 points higher across each defense (and I'm being very generous when I say that). Therefore, 10% of the time that you are attacked, you are missed compared to playing a leader. Is that 10% enough to make up for the loss of 2 heals? Sure, you can argue that the defender also helps to protect his allies, but so does the leader in the form of healing. And the leader controls his heals, the defender does not control how the monster responds to the mark.

For example, I'm a brutal DM that's notorious for violating marks and focus-firing. If you played a primary defender in this party, you'll find that all your healing resources are gone by the first encounter and characters are dying by the second. Sure, you'll do extra damage since I'm violating the mark, but when my options are "take extra damage but kill a character" or "stay on the defender", I don't hesitate; I go for the kill.

Now, obviously if your DM always listens to the mark, then the defender is okay - but I still say the leader is more important. (And I'm saying primary leader, secondary defender.)

But - there's also another option, and I want to make sure that you consider all your bases: a primary controller and secondary striker. I'm thinking something like a Predator Druid. Someone who can help lock down the battlefield and still put out some good damage. You don't need healing when the monsters can't touch you. And the extra damage it does will help speed up combats considerably. Win/win. But a bit risky. (I'm a high risk, high reward type player and DM, obviously.)

[Kurald Galain]

In a small group, having someone who can heal and be a good team player is more important than having someone who can take an extra hit.

Absolutely.

Also note that in a party without a leader, any character that goes down, stays down. Well, you could make copious use of second wind and the healing skill, but both are very inefficient usages of a standard action. That's what leaders excel at; not having a leader makes a much more visible difference in gameplay than missing any other role.

[Tegu8788]

Regardless of which role he leans into, the other characters are a Bow Ranger and an Orb Wizard. Ranged players. He needs to be able to take the hits, and be in melee. I fully agree that he needs to get some strong healing powers that recharge regularly, but he also can't afford to spread the damage out too much. The Ranger may be able to take a few hits, but that Wizard is pretty squishy. Damage is good and so should control be, but if the Ranger can nap that pair of Shaman feats, that would be good for the party.

It sounds like the Fighter|Runepriest or Cleric|Paladin would be good as they can live in melee, give good healing, and handle taking a lot of hits.

If your Wizard can really lock things down and your Ranger does the Shaman thing, a Cleric|Barbarian may do well. Plenty durable, high enough damage you don't need a Mark, and still able to throw around healing.

[Vallum]

If your Wizard can really lock things down and your Ranger does the Shaman thing

Unfortunately, the Ranger took a MC feat for Wizard... (again, not the most optimized-minded player).

[Tegu8788]

So your Dex Ranger took a Wizard MC when you already have a Wizard? I'd say you are correct about them being unoptomized. But if they have fun, that's the best.

If you can suggest retraining I would, but it seems like the healing will be on you. Invigorating Strike is a good utility your Ranger should definitely get. Shift Wis mod plus self healing. The others I'm sure have more suggestions on ways you can help your team out. Wizards can do just about anything with all the support they have been given.

You may want to talk to your DM about making sure that the encounters are built around what your party can handle.

[Vallum]

We had three more people show up, (paladin, fighter, and optimized Ranger). So I whipped up a Warlord quickly and had pretty good teamwork going on with the group.

I'm glad I went Dwarf... I got focused pretty well, but lived to survive it (toting 53 HP and a 22 AC, but able to second wind as a minor is jawesome).

[Tegu8788]

With a fighter and a paladin you don't need to worry about defending. Glad it went well.

[Vallum]

So, I was wondering if going 21/15 in Str/Int for the 5th level Dwarf Warlord was a good plan, or if I should rearrange some stats to get more out of my riders?

(btw, I have my dwarf outfitted with scale Tactical Armor, (giving my int mod for my powers +1 higher), which has been a saving grace for my riders)

[tcrudisi]

Tac Warlord? I don't remember what level you are, but Int is considered to be a second primary. (I'm guessing you are in the 4-7 range). Personally, I'd do an 18/18 spread between them (19/19 at the 4-7 range). As a TacLord, especially once you start to level up, that Int becomes all the more important. Crazy important.

I would give citations as to why, but I'm afb at the moment.

edit: Oh hey, you said 5th level in the post. Hahaha.

[tarlison]

I dont know if this still works but I hope it will help u
Offensive Type

Soveliss, level 5
Eladrin, Swordmage|Artificer
Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid): Aegis of Shielding
Hybrid Artificer: Hybrid Artificer Fortitude
Hybrid Talent: Swordmage Warding
Background: Thay (Thay Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 21, Wis 10, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 13, Dex 8, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 10.


AC: 22 Fort: 15 Reflex: 17 Will: 14
HP: 54 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 13

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +12, Endurance +9, History +14, Arcana +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Dungeoneering +2, Heal +2, Insight +2, Intimidate +2, Nature +2, Perception +2, Stealth +2, Streetwise +2, Thievery +2, Athletics +3

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Level 4: Eladrin Soldier

POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Frigid Blade
Hybrid at-will 1: Magic Weapon
Hybrid encounter 1: Scouring Weapon
Hybrid daily 1: Flameburst Armor
Hybrid utility 2: Swift Mender
Hybrid encounter 3: Sloth Strike
Hybrid daily 5: Swordmage Shielding Fire

ITEMS
Leather Armor, Longsword


Defensive Type

Zeryaltiss, level 5
Githyanki, Swordmage|Artificer
Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid): Aegis of Shielding
Hybrid Artificer: Hybrid Artificer Fortitude
Hybrid Talent: Swordmage Warding
Background: Thay (Thay Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 15, Dex 10, Int 21, Wis 10, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 9.


AC: 23 Fort: 15 Reflex: 17 Will: 14
HP: 54 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 13

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +8, History +14, Arcana +12

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +1, Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Dungeoneering +2, Heal +2, Insight +2, Intimidate +1, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +7, Stealth +1, Streetwise +1, Thievery +1, Athletics +2

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Intelligent Blademaster
Level 4: Armor Proficiency: Hide

POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Frigid Blade
Hybrid at-will 1: Magic Weapon
Hybrid encounter 1: Scouring Weapon
Hybrid daily 1: Flameburst Armor
Hybrid utility 2: Swift Mender
Hybrid encounter 3: Sloth Strike
Hybrid daily 5: Swordmage Shielding Fire

ITEMS
Longsword, Hide Armor


I suggest to take intellegent blade master for the offensive type as soon as possible and take also hide armor after and possibly spec in hide armor while in defensice type get expertise ans focus soon and a spec in hide as soon as its possible

[Vallum]

Tac Warlord? I don't remember what level you are, but Int is considered to be a second primary. (I'm guessing you are in the 4-7 range). Personally, I'd do an 18/18 spread between them (19/19 at the 4-7 range). As a TacLord, especially once you start to level up, that Int becomes all the more important. Crazy important.

I would give citations as to why, but I'm afb at the moment.

edit: Oh hey, you said 5th level in the post. Hahaha.

at 5th, I can have Str/Int be 19/18. Should I see about swapping the Scale armor with Hide?

[Tegu8788]

Depends on what gets you better AC. As I hear things, light armor does better in high level campaigns. If you already have magic armor, keep it.

[windgate]

Ive got a build listed on the Charopt 4e WotC boards.

Eladrin Swordmage/Warlord (Resourceful)

Virtually unhittable defenses, decent marking ability, multiple heals and temp HP granting and it is Int primary for the effects on all those wonderful Warlord powers.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29427803/?sdb=1&post_num=1#525005953

Running it dual role in my current Homebrew campaign for a five man party as the sole leader and defender