E6 Recommendation (Item Selection, 27 Languages)

[Mithril Leaf]

So, I'm making an E6 Rogue (Artificer) // Peasant (Magewright) using Gnorman's E6 classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250820). Because of a starting 24 intelligence and choosing speak language as one of my class skill, along with not wanting to have ranks in most of the skills I somewhat want, I ended up with 27 bonus languages available. To solve this matter, I'm asking each of you to tell me your 4 favorite languages so that I can get the best ones. Additionally, due to the large amount of money I'll be having available for magic items, I would love to know your favorite magic items up to caster level 9. This is going to be a fun character. :smallwink:

TLDR; Favorite 4 languages and item under CL 9.

[hex0]

languages can be situational in a way. If you find a monster entry that 'speaks its own language' then you and an ally can learn it for stealth. (drow) sign language is also handy for this purpose.

[gorfnab]

Drow Sign Language
Beguiler
Ancient Suloise
Netherese

Complete List of Languages Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208167)
E6 Comprehensive Magic Item Lists Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235754)

[Mithril Leaf]

I'm well aware of both threads, had them open before starting this. But knowing what's an option doesn't tell me what's going to be fun or useful. Hence asking what people liked as apposed to which were the best. I'll pick up the ones mentioned so far.

[Zaq]

Buommi is the best language. The best.

[Mithril Leaf]

Buommi is the best language. The best.

I must sing everything ever. Added.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Look specifically at the items printed in Savage Species and the Faerun books, if you're patient. There are a lot of insanely good items from those books; for example, the Elf Edge (SS, p. 50) and the Sword of the Schemer (SS, p. 53) are better ability bonuses than actual ability bonus items (unless you go into custom magic item territory).

It might also be useful to know if all versions of items can be used. For example, the Rogue Blade (MiC, p. 58) is good for its value, but so is the Rogue Blade (SS, p. 51): much more costly, but MUCH more value for any character going that route.

Artificer's Monocle is a great low-cost item, as it eliminates the need for Identify for a very low cost.

Beyond that, I'd have to ask for specifics of the character, as you can have a great deal of variance in what is useful for what.

[Arcanist]

Thorass
Netherese
Lorass
Draconic

And a Blessed Book (Taking levels as Geometers)

[Mithril Leaf]

Look specifically at the items printed in Savage Species and the Faerun books, if you're patient. There are a lot of insanely good items from those books; for example, the Elf Edge (SS, p. 50) and the Sword of the Schemer (SS, p. 53) are better ability bonuses than actual ability bonus items (unless you go into custom magic item territory).

It might also be useful to know if all versions of items can be used. For example, the Rogue Blade (MiC, p. 58) is good for its value, but so is the Rogue Blade (SS, p. 51): much more costly, but MUCH more value for any character going that route.

Artificer's Monocle is a great low-cost item, as it eliminates the need for Identify for a very low cost.

Beyond that, I'd have to ask for specifics of the character, as you can have a great deal of variance in what is useful for what.

Ask and thou shalt receive. (http://pastebin.com/QXv19bTt)

[Lonely Tylenol]

Just making sure I've got this right: Magewright, Artificer, and the Artisan feats, per Gnorman's rules, stack such that you add the total bonuses together, right? So your INT mod of 7, the Magewright lesser ability, and Extraordinary Artisan would reduce the gp cost by 35 + 25 + 25 = 85%, right?

If so, your first item should be a continuous item of Fox's Cunning, for a permanent +4 to Intelligence, which would reduce the cost another 10% on top of that, or 95% total.

Now that I know that cost is functionally not a problem past level 3, I know I can throw out the good, pricey items from Fae'run's rich catalog... Sorry, I hope you don't mind, but this will take awhile. :smallwink:

[Mithril Leaf]

Just making sure I've got this right: Magewright, Artificer, and the Artisan feats, per Gnorman's rules, stack such that you add the total bonuses together, right? So your INT mod of 7, the Magewright lesser ability, and Extraordinary Artisan would reduce the gp cost by 35 + 25 + 25 = 85%, right?

If so, your first item should be a continuous item of Fox's Cunning, for a permanent +4 to Intelligence, which would reduce the cost another 10% on top of that, or 95% total.

Now that I know that cost is functionally not a problem past level 3, I know I can throw out the good, pricey items from Fae'run's rich catalog... Sorry, I hope you don't mind, but this will take awhile. :smallwink:

Stack as in percent of a percent.
100*.5*.65*.75*.75*.90=16.453125% of market value.
If it worked the other way I'd actually be able to reduce costs to zero easily in E6. As is, I'll be ending up paying 3.60703125% by the time I'm done with the campaign by using a variety of feats and intelligence boosting things.
Still crazy, but not quite as crazy. Keep those items coming though :smallwink:

[Madara]

Well, it depends a bit on the setting, but I love:
1. Sphnx: Only one creature actually has it as a listed language. As far as I know, humanoids don't need to rip out their tongue to speak it, either.
2. Giant: Ever since giants gained the "They were great, once" history, I've found that ancient texts are often in Giant. Plus, I imagine that speaking anything in Giant has a certain feel of power to it.
3. Goblin(oid): Not only does it help you understand the stereotypical enemy, but like #2, the Goblins often had a great civilization at one point, and speaking their language could give you some nice insight.
4. Elemental Languages: Yes, there are four. So pick one. Its described as sounding like that aspect of nature, and what's cooler than casting fireball by chanting Ignan?
5. Dwarven: Likely a good choice for you. (Granted, you should grab all the common ones anyways). The Dwarves are usually the crafters of the world, and this will allow you to understand their notes on crafting and such.

[Mithril Leaf]

Well, it depends a bit on the setting, but I love:
1. Sphnx: Only one creature actually has it as a listed language. As far as I know, humanoids don't need to rip out their tongue to speak it, either.
2. Giant: Ever since giants gained the "They were great, once" history, I've found that ancient texts are often in Giant. Plus, I imagine that speaking anything in Giant has a certain feel of power to it.
3. Goblin(oid): Not only does it help you understand the stereotypical enemy, but like #2, the Goblins often had a great civilization at one point, and speaking their language could give you some nice insight.
4. Elemental Languages: Yes, there are four. So pick one. Its described as sounding like that aspect of nature, and what's cooler than casting fireball by chanting Ignan?
5. Dwarven: Likely a good choice for you. (Granted, you should grab all the common ones anyways). The Dwarves are usually the crafters of the world, and this will allow you to understand their notes on crafting and such.

Only one of the elemental ones? Bah, I grabbed all 4 just to be safe.

[Madara]

Only one of the elemental ones? Bah, I grabbed all 4 just to be safe.

Well, you asked us for our favorite 4, and I wanted to follow the rules :smallwink:

Edit: Apperently I didn't anyways. :smallredface:

[Jeff the Green]

This is more than four, but my favorites are:

Ignan
Aquan
Terran
Auran
Celestial
Abysal
Infernal
Sylvan


Why? They're the languages you need to speak to command virtually any creature you might summon or call.

For magic items, I love eternal wands and lesser schemata. A lesser schema of extended rope trick lasts 10 hours, plenty for sleep and spell prep.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Beholders have their own language, I've seen it used for making some unpronounceable pass/trigger words. Requiring fluency in an obscure language to properly pronounce it, rather than just knowing the word, and all that. It's the same reason why the Power Word spells require multiple pages, it's all pronunciation notes.

Sylvan, Draconic, Goblinoid, and Giant are some of the most widely used languages among the various creatures, and thus the most likely to be useful. Aquan may as well be Common when dealing with aquatic races.

You can probably get most/all of Shax's Indispensable Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101) within that CL 9 limitation.

[Mithril Leaf]

For magic items, I love eternal wands and lesser schemata. A lesser schema of extended rope trick lasts 10 hours, plenty for sleep and spell prep.

These would be the ones made by Etch Schema, yes? Sadly can't make those due to the caster level 10th requirement.

[Jeff the Green]

These would be the ones made by Etch Schema, yes? Sadly can't make those due to the caster level 10th requirement.

:smallconfused: That's silly. You can make the eternal wands, though they cost twice as much.

[Arcanist]

:smallconfused: That's silly. You can make the eternal wands, though they cost twice as much.

But are sooooooooooooo worth it (in my opinion at least...)

[Mithril Leaf]

:smallconfused: That's silly. You can make the eternal wands, though they cost twice as much.

What's really silly is that I'm making things for 3% of market value once I'm properly leveled. Eternal wands of lesser planar binding (off the demonologist list) might be fun.

[Jeff the Green]

What's really silly is that I'm making things for 3% of market value once I'm properly leveled. Eternal wands of lesser planar binding (off the demonologist list) might be fun.

Eternal wands are good for things you want to cast twice a day, every day, like (extended) mage armor, rope trick, greater magic weapon, magic vestment, etc. For lesser planar binding, I think I'd prefer a regular wand, since some days you may want a horde, and some your only use for the spell will be Dorukan's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html). :smallamused:

[Lonely Tylenol]

You'll probably want the following continuous effects on your character (EDIT: prices are going to be listed as market value/current cost to make/future cost at 3%):

Fox's Cunning: 24,000 gp/3,948.8 gp/720 gp
Bear's Endurance: 24,000 gp/3,948.8 gp/720 gp
Cat's Grace: 24,000 gp/3,948.8 gp/720 gp
Mage Armor: 2,000 gp/329.1 gp/60 gp
Shield: 4,000 gp/658.1 gp/120 gp
Protection from X: 4,000 gp/658.1 gp/120 gp
Endure Elements: 1,000 gp/164.5 gp/30 gp
Undetectable Alignment (Bard): 2,000 gp/329.1 gp/60 gp
Delay Disease: 1,000 gp/164.5 gp/30 gp
Delay Poison: 12,000 gp/1,974.3 gp/360 gp
Conviction: 3,000 gp/493.5 gp/90 gp (though it actually costs a little more than resistance +2 thanks to the 10 min/lvl duration, if being applied as a secondary effect)
Pass Without Trace: 2,000 gp/329.1 gp/60 gp
Remove Scent: 3,000 gp/493.6 gp/90 gp
Disguise Self (command word): 1,800 gp/296.2 gp/54 gp
Darkvision: 12,000 gp/1,974.3 gp/360 gp
See Invisibility: 18,000 gp/2,961.6 gp/540 gp
Scent (Ranger): 6,000 gp/987.2 gp/180 gp
Tremorsense: 45,000 gp/7403.9 gp/1,350 gp
Blindsight: 60,000 gp/9,871.9 gp/1,800 gp

You can mix and match them, however, doing so will result in all but the most expensive spell added costing 1.5 times as much (NOTE: if your DM doesn't want you to multiply the second, third, etc. most expensive spells by 1.5, modify prices accordingly). A few examples:

A ring of Fox's Cunning, Bear's Endurance and Cat's Grace (continuous): 96,000 gp, mitigated down to about 16,000 gp, in order to have a +4 to the three ability scores that really matter for you. This can occupy any body slot you want it to, really.

A torso item (vestment) of resistance +2, Mage Armor, Shield, and Protection from Evil (continuous): 22,000 gp, mitigated to under 4,000 gp, gives you a permanent +4 armor bonus and +4 shield bonus to AC, +2 deflection bonus to AC against attacks from evil creatures, +2 resistance bonus to all saves, the immunity to compulsions and repelling of all summoned nongood creatures. If you're actually wearing armor (you have proficiencies, yes?), you can cut out the Mage Armor to shave 3,000 off the initial cost, although frankly it's a steal at this price.

Ring of Delay Poison and Disease (indefinitely), and also Endure Elements: Normally a 14,000 gold item, this will run you just over 2,000 gp, and allow you to permanently endure temperatures between -50 and 140 Fahrenheit, as well as any poisons and diseases (which are basically delayed indefinitely).

Hat of Disguise Self, Undetectable Alignment, Pass Without Trace and Remove Scent: This item will run you just under 2,000 gp, give you Disguise Self at-will (command word activation), your alignment can't be discerned, and you will never leave a trail or scent.

Mask of See All the Things (Scent, Darkvision, See Invisibility): Everything shy of Tremorsense and Blindsight for just shy of 7,500 gp.

You will want two wand bracers with 5 wands each. Consider the following:

Eternal wands of:
Nerveskitter (135 gp): +5 untyped bonus to your initiative 2/day.
Knock (727 gp): When you need that door opened.
Alarm, Greater (727 gp): 24 hour protection at CL 3 (4 hours/level).
Benign Transportation (135 gp): When you need to save yourself (or someone else) in a pinch.
Detect Magic (75 gp): Detect Magic.
Snake's Swiftness, Mass (1,793 gp): When you need everyone to make an attack at a moment's hesitation.
Shock and Awe (135 gp): When you have a surprise round, this beats Nerveskitter. If you have other initiative bonuses, this can also beat Nerveskitter (although both are generally useful to have).
Obscuring Mist (135 gp): Solid battlefield control, and an alternative to Grease.
Expeditious Retreat or Expeditious Retreat, Swift (135 gp): Panic button!

Wands of:
Lesser vigor (123 gp): Fast healing for 11 rounds, 50 times.
Swift Invisibility (236 gp): Invisibility as a swift action for 1 round. (You can Eternal Wand this, but you need to be sure you won't need it more than twice in a day.)
Charm Person (123 gp): The one and only.

In wand chambers (eternal or normal, depending on how much you engage in actual combat):
Wraithstrike
Bladeweave
Whirling Blade

+1 Spiked Gauntlets of Warning are a worthy item to create, if you can swing it.

As far as essential, ready-made items...

Winged Mask at 13,000 gp (2138.9 to you) is a bargain for what it does (at-will Fly).
Anklet of Translocation costs 1,400 gp (230.3 to you) and gives you swift-action teleportation of up to 10 feet twice per day.

These are all generally useful things, though, and not necessarily the hidden gems you were probably looking for. I'm afraid that, for that, I would need still more specific questions answered, like: what is it you want to do?

[Mithril Leaf]

Awesome list Lonely, although a few of the buff spell items aren't completely important since I can just make the +6 item (except for strength). I'm thinking buffificer and blastificer. I am also likely to be the skill monkey due to having at least 9 ranks in every skill, 16 in most (that sweet rogue intelligence based ability). I will at some point create an effigy version of that Kaorti Giant Scorpion from the Fiend Folio so that should cover melee, although if you have any suggestion so I could be passable at that as well, I'm open to them.
Comments on individual items:
I shall be picking up a houseruled permanent horseshoe of flame (Up the price to 50k, have to make a UMD check once per day) so flight comes from that.
As far as the armor goes, I'll be using a Masterwork Mithril Chain Shirt made with the custom enhanced mundane creation rules from Dragon #358. Also I'll be using Masterwork Mithril Dastana and that mirror overlay thing from Oriental Adventure using the same modifier. All told, it'll be +8 armor without enchantment, max dex of +6, and no ACF.
Also as far as armor, I've already got continuous protection against anything unnatural due to being unseelie fey. Darkvision too.
I'll also want an eternal wand or two of Guidance Of The Avatar due to the whole massive skill boost.

Thanks for the help so far guys. :smallbiggrin:

[Lonely Tylenol]

Awesome list Lonely, although a few of the buff spell items aren't completely important since I can just make the +6 item (except for strength). I'm thinking buffificer and blastificer. I am also likely to be the skill monkey due to having at least 9 ranks in every skill, 16 in most (that sweet rogue intelligence based ability). I will at some point create an effigy version of that Kaorti Giant Scorpion from the Fiend Folio so that should cover melee, although if you have any suggestion so I could be passable at that as well, I'm open to them.

If you can make +6 items, by all means; the chief concern is likely going to be that they are fixed to item slots (you can't have a ring of +6 to everything), but if you can tack it on to everything, it should work fine.


Comments on individual items:
I shall be picking up a houseruled permanent horseshoe of flame (Up the price to 50k, have to make a UMD check once per day) so flight comes from that.

Okay, that works.


As far as the armor goes, I'll be using a Masterwork Mithril Chain Shirt made with the custom enhanced mundane creation rules from Dragon #358. Also I'll be using Masterwork Mithril Dastana and that mirror overlay thing from Oriental Adventure using the same modifier. All told, it'll be +8 armor without enchantment, max dex of +6, and no ACF.

By all means, you can have actual armor as well; I just suggested Mage Armor because there is no ceiling on the max Dex bonus, and can be worn with, say, quilted armor cheaply (where you use the quilted armor to stack enhancements, not for its armor value). The AC bonus need not be stratospheric; if all of your bonuses together push you into the upper 20s, it will be reliable enough that you can let Mirror Image and Displacement carry you the rest of the way. (For all else, gauge the costs-to-benefits on how much extra you're spending, vs. how much it actually saves you.)


Also as far as armor, I've already got continuous protection against anything unnatural due to being unseelie fey. Darkvision too.

Hooray for Summer.

Darkvision was a 1-in-10 roll, so it was worth mentioning. (I rolled randomly for my Unseelie Fey Whisper Gnome Factotum, and landed Summer, no wings, and Darkvision... The latter two which it already had. Boring!)


I'll also want an eternal wand or two of Guidance Of The Avatar due to the whole massive skill boost.

Guidance of the Avatar is only a divine spell, and thus cannot be added to an eternal wand, unfortunately.

Thanks for the help so far guys. :smallbiggrin:[/QUOTE]

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Awesome list Lonely, although a few of the buff spell items aren't completely important since I can just make the +6 item (except for strength).

MIC p233-234, you can add +6 Str to an existing Arms, Hands, or Waist slot item for the same cost as a standalone item with the same bonus, with no attached caster level apart from the built-in minimum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#casterLevel) of 5th (that which is required to meet the prerequisites of Bull's Strength and Craft Wondrous Item).

[Mithril Leaf]

By all means, you can have actual armor as well; I just suggested Mage Armor because there is no ceiling on the max Dex bonus, and can be worn with, say, quilted armor cheaply (where you use the quilted armor to stack enhancements, not for its armor value). The AC bonus need not be stratospheric; if all of your bonuses together push you into the upper 20s, it will be reliable enough that you can let Mirror Image and Displacement carry you the rest of the way. (For all else, gauge the costs-to-benefits on how much extra you're spending, vs. how much it actually saves you.)[QUOTE]

I'm probably going to pick up +2 to natural armor as far as more AC goes, plus enchanting all my individual armor pieces to +1 or +2. End up with 12 or 15 depending on which of those.

[QUOTE=Biffoniacus_Furiou;14023302]MIC p233-234, you can add +6 Str to an existing Arms, Hands, or Waist slot item for the same cost as a standalone item with the same bonus, with no attached caster level apart from the built-in minimum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#casterLevel) of 5th (that which is required to meet the prerequisites of Bull's Strength and Craft Wondrous Item).

Awesome, I knew about the MIC any slot thing, but for some reason assumed the caster level was the same as the items.

[QUOTE=Lonely Tylenol;14022865]Guidance of the Avatar is only a divine spell, and thus cannot be added to an eternal wand, unfortunately.[QUOTE]

Damn shame about that, should be easy enough to have a replenishing supply of normal wands of them though.

I think my three favorite wands so far are Fabricate (This lets me get my absurdly expensive mundane armor done rapidly), off the Trapsmith's list, Lesser Planar Binding, off the Demonologist's list, and Guidance of the Avatar, off the Cleric list. I might pick up a wand of dominate off the Thayan Slaver's list too. Recommendation are still welcome.

[Jeff the Green]

Awesome, I knew about the MIC any slot thing, but for some reason assumed the caster level was the same as the items.

This makes me think you may be bearing a common misapprehension about the rules. When an item entry says something like:
Faint transmutation; CL 6th; Craft Wondrous Item, fabricate, creator must have 2 ranks in the Craft (shipmaking) skill; Price 7,200 gp; Weight 4 lb. you don't have to have CL 6. That's the CL of the item; it's not a prerequisite. Only the things between the CL and the price are prereqs.

[Mithril Leaf]

This makes me think you may be bearing a common misapprehension about the rules. When an item entry says something like: you don't have to have CL 6. That's the CL of the item; it's not a prerequisite. Only the things between the CL and the price are prereqs.

Alright, cool. That'll free up some items I want to make, namely Enveloping Pits.

EDIT: No, it still won't let me make them. Damn it, I want one so bad.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Alright, cool. That'll free up some items I want to make, namely Enveloping Pits.

EDIT: No, it still won't let me make them. Damn it, I want one so bad.

You can cast any spell you want in E6 with the right skill checks. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm)

[The Glyphstone]

You won't have a level of Mindbender, so unfortunately you can't learn my favorite language, Quaalish.

[Jeff the Green]

You can cast any spell you want in E6 with the right skill checks. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm)

I adore incantations (see my expanded sig for some homebrew ones), but that probably won't help. Incantations specifically aren't supposed to mimic spells; if you wanted to do one like plane shift which is what enveloping pits requires, it should be far more restrictive, e.g. only send you to a single plane, like Hrothgar's Journey (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm#hrothgarsJourney) does.

Moreover, the item creation rules specifically require spells, which incantations aren't.

[Mithril Leaf]

Thinking about it, 9th caster level lets me make items using 5th level spells (if you interpret the way Artificer and Magewright interact in just the right way), so Enveloping pit may very well be on the table. I'll have to get a ruling from the ol' DM.