[3.5] Most powerful subtypes?

[Lateral]

Due to epic levels being horribly, horribly broken, I'm building myself a fancy new body with shiny epic powers to mind switch into. To this end, I'm trying to get it some good racial traits as a base, but I can't seem to find any subtypes that provide really powerful benefits.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you are playing with Taint rules the [Evil] subtype is nifty if you are not melee-based [Incorporeal] can give you some awesome defences.

[Lord_Gareth]

Due to epic levels being horribly, horribly broken, I'm building myself a fancy new body with shiny epic powers to mind switch into. To this end, I'm trying to get it some good racial traits as a base, but I can't seem to find any subtypes that provide really powerful benefits.

The [Baatezu] and [Tanar'ri] subtypes are both awesome, but require the body to be an Outsider with the [Evil] subtype (hilariously, no other subtypes). If you wanna go for the [Good] subtype instead, [Angel] is GREAT.

[Snowbluff]

The [Baatezu] and [Tanar'ri] subtypes are both awesome, but require the body to be an Outsider with the [Evil] subtype (hilariously, no other subtypes). If you wanna go for the [Good] subtype instead, [Angel] is GREAT.

Archon is pretty sweet s well. It's like angel on steroids. Greater Teleport at will? Thank you!

[Lateral]

The [Baatezu] and [Tanar'ri] subtypes are both awesome, but require the body to be an Outsider with the [Evil] subtype (hilariously, no other subtypes). If you wanna go for the [Good] subtype instead, [Angel] is GREAT.
I looked into both, but the basic Baatezu and Tanar'ri traits have nothing that I haven't already got- I've got Telepathy and protection from all types of elemental damage, and they don't really grant much else.

In the same vein, Angel doesn't really provide me with much, and the character is Lawful Evil. (Although the whole 'dark angel' thing is pretty cool.)


If you are playing with Taint rules the [Evil] subtype is nifty if you are not melee-based [Incorporeal] can give you some awesome defences.
Already got at-will incorporeality and etherealness as extraordinary abilities, and I don't think we're using taint.


Archon is pretty sweet s well. It's like angel on steroids. Greater Teleport at will? Thank you!
Yeah, Archon is nice. The only problem I can really see is that the magic circle against evil thing would be a pain in the butt.

[Arcanist]

The [Baatezu] and [Tanar'ri] subtypes are both awesome, but require the body to be an Outsider with the [Evil] subtype (hilariously, no other subtypes). If you wanna go for the [Good] subtype instead, [Angel] is GREAT.

I actually like the [Obyrith] subtype, however I also like Enchantments and Enchantments so my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt on things that I like :smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Google the emerald legion. Make one, take its body. You are now nigh-unkillable.

[Lateral]

I actually like the [Obyrith] subtype, however I also like Enchantments and Enchantments so my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt on things that I like :smalltongue:

Obyrith is pretty nice.


Google the emerald legion. Make one, take its body. You are now nigh-unkillable.

The Emerald Legion isn't really what I'm looking for, but thanks.

Hey, does Abomination (from the ELH) count as a subtype?

[Psyren]

I looked into both, but the basic Baatezu and Tanar'ri traits have nothing that I haven't already got- I've got Telepathy and protection from all types of elemental damage, and they don't really grant much else.

In the same vein, Angel doesn't really provide me with much, and the character is Lawful Evil. (Although the whole 'dark angel' thing is pretty cool.)
...
Already got at-will incorporeality and etherealness as extraordinary abilities, and I don't think we're using taint.


Maybe tell us what you can already do, then we can find a subtype that fills the gaps?



Hey, does Abomination (from the ELH) count as a subtype?

It's unclear. The Abomination entry states that they're "a grouping of the outsider type similar to demons" which would suggest that they are. Yet the very first abomination on the list isn't an outsider, it's a construct. So it's a little confusing.

[Durazno]

Could you perhaps make a collection of bodies to control in unison or switch between as the fancy strikes you?

[*.*.*.*]

IIRC, isn't Elder Evil a subtype?

[Arcanist]

IIRC, isn't Elder Evil a subtype?

It is not a Subtype :smallfrown:

[Alleran]

IIRC, isn't Elder Evil a subtype?
Yes and no. The Elder Evils (e.g. Father Llymic [Chaotic, Outsider], Hulks of Zoretha [Evil, Outsider], Pandorym [Evil, Incorporeal, Psionic, Outsider]) don't have a specific [Elder Evil] typing. However, on page six there is the following:

"The Elder Evils presented in this book have many of the traits of abominations, as presented in the Epic Level Handbook. Unlike abominations, however, elder evils are not the offspring of deities."

They're also given a set of abilities that they all possess:

- Speak Abyssal, Celestial, Infernal, and an elemental language.
- Maximum hit points per Hit Die.
- Immune to polymorphing, petrification, and any other spell or ability that alters their form. Not subject to energy drain, ability drain, ability damage or death from massive damage. Immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities. Most elder evils have immunity to a specific energy type, depending on their nature.
- Resistance to Cold 20 and Resistance to Fire 20. High damage reduction, sometimes overcome only by epic weapons, and very high spell resistance.
- Many can summon associated creatures appropriate to their origins or specific background.
- Can use true seeing as the spell at will as a supernatural ability. Resist detection as if under the effect of a nondetection spell. They have blindsight out to 500 feet, and can communicate telepathically with any creature within 1000 feet that has a language.
- Can select epic feats.

So they're similar to a quasi-deity/abomination, but are called out as slightly different. However, they don't have an explicit subtype, and fall under the same vague nature that an abomination possesses.

Although speaking of an abomination, why not give the body being built DvR 0? Or at least replicate all the DvR 0 benefits that you can?

EDIT: Damnit, swordsage'd. I had more information, though!

[supermonkeyjoe]

if you can add the Shapechanger subtype on somehow it lets you revert to your natural form as a standard action if baleful polymorphed, not much of a concern at epic levels but still a nice perk.

[Arcanist]

if you can add the Shapechanger subtype on somehow it lets you revert to your natural form as a standard action if baleful polymorphed, not much of a concern at epic levels but still a nice perk.

Just aim for flat out immunity to being Polymorphed (See "Lich"). Why should I have to waste an action, because some foolish worm of a caster accidentally turned me into his ancestor (a toad). :smallamused:

... I wonder if you can use Epic Magic to turn yourself into a Living Demiplane :smallamused:

[TuggyNE]

Just aim for flat out immunity to being Polymorphed (See "Lich"). Why should I have to waste an action, because some foolish worm of a caster accidentally turned me into his ancestor (a toad). :smallamused:

... I wonder if you can use Epic Magic to turn yourself into a Living Demiplane :smallamused:

Theoretically, yes, probably; I expect it involves myriad ad-hoc DC adjustments though, so not really very practical for almost any purposes.

In particular, you might need to first origin of species-up a new creature (Living Demiplane) and then supercharge a Transform seed until you can turn yourself into that.

[Eldan]

You don't really need to Origin of Species it. You just need to find Neth, the Living Plane (coincidentally, one of my favourite creatures).

[TuggyNE]

You don't really need to Origin of Species it. You just need to find Neth, the Living Plane (coincidentally, one of my favourite creatures).

Really? Interesting. Learned something new today. What are its properties?

[Eldan]

Let's see. It's in Manual of the Planes.

Neth, the Plane that Lives. It's a demiplane of living matter, that is incredibly curious about the world outside itself, which it can not directly reach. It learns about the world outside by absorbing visitors into its body, and taking their memories.

It is mostly given planar traits, instead of creature traits:
Subjective gravity.
It is a single round membrane, 500 miles in diameter and thirty feet thick, rolled into a ball 25 miles in diameter.
It can create or change rooms inside itself at will, but they are always filled with liquid.
It can split off medium sized sub-units called Neth's Children at will, via budding. They are flesh golems with a swim speed and high intelligence.
It can create fluid streams inside itself to move things around.
Every five foot square has hardness five and 120 HP.
It can encapsulate intruders and put them in stasis or absorb them.
It's immune to death effects and disintegration.

[ben-zayb]

What? No [Swarm] mention yet? :smallsigh:

[Eldan]

Oh, yeah. If you can get swarm, get swarmp.

Are there any incorporeal swarms?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think there is one in the MM 2...

[Lateral]

Wow, lots of responses.


Maybe tell us what you can already do, then we can find a subtype that fills the gaps?
Yeah, probably a good idea. I'm a Telepath 10/Thrallherd 18 (using this epic progression (http://www.dndonlinegames.com/showthread.php?t=52504)), true mindswitch'd into this body. I have ML 28, telepathy 140 feet, the ability to manifest as a supernatural ability, immunity to critical hits, sneak attacks, death effects, negative levels, and negative energy, and powers like personal mind blank and freedom of movement to protect myself from other things. As an epic manifester, I've already created a few permanent epic powers that give me +300 AC, +200 to all saves, resist 200 to all energy, and protection from up to 16th-level spells (including epic spells). The creature is medium size, has eight tentacle attacks, a dexterity of 45 (improved to 50 through inherent bonuses), the ability to change its size as a swift action extraordinary ability, the ability to heal itself fully as another swift action extraordinary ability, the ability to become incorporeal or ethereal at will as a move action extraordinary ability, a ghost's malevolence as an extraordinary ability, and a 300-foot land speed. As a thrallherd, I also have a thrall of 27th level and another of 26th level, as well as over 30,000 believers. Oh, and I still have over three million GP to spend.


It's unclear. The Abomination entry states that they're "a grouping of the outsider type similar to demons" which would suggest that they are. Yet the very first abomination on the list isn't an outsider, it's a construct. So it's a little confusing.
Well, yeah, that's kind of weird.


Could you perhaps make a collection of bodies to control in unison or switch between as the fancy strikes you?
True Mind Switching between them would be a pain in the ass, and I can cast Greater Metamorphosis without the XP costs.


if you can add the Shapechanger subtype on somehow it lets you revert to your natural form as a standard action if baleful polymorphed, not much of a concern at epic levels but still a nice perk.
Shapechanger is something I could add... it can already change its size.


Just aim for flat out immunity to being Polymorphed (See "Lich"). Why should I have to waste an action, because some foolish worm of a caster accidentally turned me into his ancestor (a toad). :smallamused:
Immunity to polymorph would be nice.


... I wonder if you can use Epic Magic to turn yourself into a Living Demiplane :smallamused:
That would be awfully difficult to play.


What? No [Swarm] mention yet? :smallsigh:
I'd rather not be a swarm all the time, although an alternate swarm form ability would be cool.

[Dusk Eclipse]

RAW if you have the [Swarm] subtype you get all the traits it doesn't matter if you aren't actually a swarm >_>.

[ben-zayb]

Oh, yeah. If you can get swarm, get swarmp.

Are there any incorporeal swarms?
The Zeitgeist from Cityscape is a "spirit of the city" sort of creature. It's an incorporeal fey that has greater invisibility effect (like a pixie) and can transform into a variety of things, including a Huge Mob swarm (the available manifestations' description are found in the same book), once per day but lasts until the swarm is destroyed.

I mean seriously... an angry mob. What's more awesome than that? A throng of rampaging kids?

EDIT: the mobs are not of the swarm subtype after all, since their subtype is (mob of humans). guess that's not gonna work then.

I'd rather not be a swarm all the time, although an alternate swarm form ability would be cool.


RAW if you have the [Swarm] subtype you get all the traits it doesn't matter if you aren't actually a swarm >_>.

The Swarm-shifter template from Libris Mortis gives you an alternate swarm form. Were-murder-of-crows (ToM) and were-swarm-of-rats are arguably RAW legal, but don't expect the DM to approve that.

[Dusk Eclipse]

They are playing Epic with Epic spellcasting and an Epic Thrallherd, were-murder of crows looks pretty tame in comparison.

[Lateral]

They are playing Epic with Epic spellcasting and an Epic Thrallherd, were-murder of crows looks pretty tame in comparison.

Indeed. With epic spells and Thrallherd allowed, I'm basically omnipotent- not much you can't do when you have more worshippers than your average lesser deity. I don't actually expect this campaign to go anywhere, I'm just taking it as an excuse to build an insanely powerful, ridiculously evil character. (Until I figured out that I could obviate XP costs with Supernatural Transformation and my legions of believers, I was going to use captured souls for XP.)