Can void disciples grant the same feat multiple times?

[Hirax]

Could a void disciple grant the feat toughness (and other feats that stack) to the same subject twice and have it stack? The reason I ask, is that having seen several abuses of metamind and temporal reiteration pop up lately, I suddenly realized what a wizard1/psion5/metamind10/void disciple4 might be able to do. :smalleek:

Edit: here's the abilities in question:
Moment of Clarity (Su):
A void disciple of 4th level or higher can grant an ally the temporary ability to perform any skill or feat (with the exception of ancestor feats). The void disciple must use a standard action to touch the target. The target gains either one feat or a number of ranks in one skill equal to his relevant ability modifier for that skill. For example, a character with Dexterity 14 could gain 2 ranks in Ride, for a total skill modifier of +4. The effect lasts for 1 round per level of the void disciple. The void disciple can use this supernatural ability twice per day at 4th level, plus an additional use for every four additional levels she attains.

Metamind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/metamind.htm)'s font of power
A 10th-level metamind can act as a living cognizance crystal, producing seemingly endless power points once per day, for up to 1 minute. His eyes shine like tiny stars, and faint illumination seems to beam out of his mouth and the end of each of his fingers. While so empowered, he can manifest any of his powers without drawing from his power point reserve. He finds the power points he needs welling up within his own body.

Temporal reiteration (Complete Psionic)
Psychoportation
Level: Nomad 5
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
Power Points: 9
A temporal fire encompasses your body. Within its time-defying flames, you gain a moment of stasis.

The past round does not count as time spent from the duration of ongoing effects on you such as rage, spell duration, and poison. Manifesting this power effectively increases their duration for you by 1 round.

Augment: For every 4 additional power points you spend, you can share the power's effect with one additional person who is within 30 feet of you at the time you manifest the power.

[Telonius]

I'm not one of the forums' real rules wizards, but this one feels like a "no" to me. Bonuses from the same source don't stack unless the bonus specifically says it does - Dodge bonuses are the primary exception, but dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. The Toughness feat specifically says that the effect of the feat (+3 HP) can stack with itself. However, my gut instinct is that the Void Mind's ability to grant a Feat is a Supernatural ability - meaning it's a magical effect, subject to the normal stacking rules.

If the player already has the feat from just taking it, the bonuses would stack since they're untyped bonuses from different sources. But the same magical (which the Moment of Clarity bonus would be, since it's Su) bonus from the same source wouldn't stack, even if it's untyped. They might overlap, which could benefit the character by (effectively) extending how long the "+3 HP" bonus is in effect, if Moment of Clarity is used on different rounds.

[Hirax]

The only stacking rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking) I found specifically call out checks and rolls, which feats are not. So I'm looking for other potentially applicable rules. I wouldn't be surprised if they're out there and are just eluding me at the moment.

Edit: I was also looking for insight on whether this could be used to gain every non-ancestor feat in the game via temporal reiteration+font of power, of course. Being able to stack feats like toughness and great intelligence would just be gravy.

[Telonius]

There's a stacking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects) section under "Casting Spells" as well. It's a bit more inclusive in its language:

Combining Magical Effects

Spells or magical effects usually work as described, no matter how many other spells or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient. Except in special cases, a spell does not affect the way another spell operates. Whenever a spell has a specific effect on other spells, the spell description explains that effect. Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place:

Stacking Effects

Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).

HP would be one of those "other attributes."

[Hirax]

Ah, there we go, that seems bulletproof. Looks like you'd need to merely settle for one copy of every feat, then.

[dextercorvia]

Not so fast. Read the whole quote. The bolded part applies only to spells. It is only typed bonuses which don't stack if they come from other effects.

[Telonius]

Not so fast. Read the whole quote. The bolded part applies only to spells. It is only typed bonuses which don't stack if they come from other effects.

The bolded part is the section heading - all of the points underneath it would apply to both spells and magical effects.

[dextercorvia]

Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).

See the contrast?

[Axier]

Another tid bit that would be worth bringing up is that most feats are Ex, and Im pretty sure that a better physique would count as an Ex ability, therefore not a magical effect.

[Hirax]

I found the whole thing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects), and it's actually making me agree with Dex and Ax. The only places that mention other effects don't seem like they'd be applicable. Which is terrifiying, because it's another way to give life to obtain arbitrarily high stats and skill ranks that doesn't involve sarrukhs. On top of having one of every non-ancestor feat. I never would have thought to watch out for void disciples if someone brought one to the table before (their scying that isn't scrying ability is at least manageable), but now I know.

[dextercorvia]

I found the whole thing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects), and it's actually making me agree with Dex and Ax. The only places that mention other effects don't seem like they'd be applicable. Which is terrifiying, because it's another way to give life to obtain arbitrarily high stats and skill ranks that doesn't involve sarrukhs. On top of having one of every non-ancestor feat. I never would have thought to watch out for void disciples if someone brought one to the table before (their scying that isn't scrying ability is at least manageable), but now I know.

It is limited in times per day pretty seriously (4 times per day at VD12), and the duration is only 1 round per level. Even with Squire of Legend follower abuse and bloodlines, I fail to see how this would get us anywhere near really abusable.

[Hirax]

I was putting it together with temporal reiteration and font of power. Meaning every day you get 4 new feats, unless someone hits you with disjunction, but that just puts you back to square 1. Added said things to the OP.

[dextercorvia]

I was putting it together with temporal reiteration and font of power. Meaning every day you get 4 new feats, unless someone hits you with disjunction, but that just puts you back to square 1. Added said things to the OP.

I haven't heard of those. Source?

NM I read the OP.

I'm still not seeing how you are extending it much past the minute granted by Font of Power.

[Ashtagon]

Another tid bit that would be worth bringing up is that most feats are Ex, and Im pretty sure that a better physique would count as an Ex ability, therefore not a magical effect.

But:


Moment of Clarity (Su):

Pretty sure moment of clarity is a supernatural effect :smallconfused:

[Telonius]

See the contrast?

Might be lack of caffeine today, but no, I don't. Here's how I'm reading the section.
I. etc etc other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place:


Stacking Effects. Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above)


1. Different Bonus Names. The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. A bonus that isn’t named stacks with any bonus.


2. Same effect etc etc

B. Spells with Opposite Effects

C. Instantaneous Effects

I'm seeing A as the overarching rule (with "spells" being understood as meaning both spells and magical effects throughout, as implied by the wording of I) for stacking effects. Spells (and magical effects) don't stack with themselves, is the key specific there; with bonuses of the same type not stacking being the more general application.

[Hirax]

I haven't heard of those. Source?

NM I read the OP.

I'm still not seeing how you are extending it much past the minute granted by Font of Power.

By giving up a swift action every round to cast temporal reiteration, no effect you have active will run out. Ever. That includes font of power, moment of clarity, a factotum's cunning brilliance, all spells that have a duration, etc. You'd have to argue something isn't an effect for it to not be affected by temporal reiteration, but moment of clarity explicitly is an effect.

[dextercorvia]

By giving up a swift action every round to cast temporal reiteration, no effect you have active will run out. Ever. That includes font of power, moment of clarity, a factotum's cunning brilliance, all spells that have a duration, etc. You'd have to argue something isn't an effect for it to not be affected by temporal reiteration, but moment of clarity explicitly is an effect.

Gotcha. I was only applying temporal reiteration to one ability. Nice.

@Telonius: You are reading Spells as meaning more than just Spells because it occurs in a section that is talking about Spells and abilities. However the next sentence addresses spells and abilities. You are being unnecessarily generous with your reading of "Spells".

[Chambers]

Why bother with stacking Toughness feats? Manifest Timeless Body the round before you start the Metamind + Temporal Reiteration combo and be immune to all attacks and powers.

[dextercorvia]

Why bother with stacking Toughness feats? Manifest Timeless Body the round before you start the Metamind + Temporal Reiteration combo and be immune to all attacks and powers.

Wouldn't that make you immune to Temporal Reiteration? (And, I think Toughness was just an example)

[Chambers]

Wouldn't that make you immune to Temporal Reiteration? (And, I think Toughness was just an example)

Timeless Body makes you invulnerable to attacks and powers, not immune. Temporal Reiteration isn't an attack or dealing damage; there's nothing to be vulnerable to from the power so being invulnerable against it shouldn't have an interaction. I think the key here is invulnerable and not immune.

[Hirax]

It has the benefit of being a simple example, but I actually was using toughness as the example primarily to make was I was pondering seem more innocuous than it really was. :smallbiggrin:

[Axier]

But:



Pretty sure moment of clarity is a supernatural effect :smallconfused:

Im speaking of feats, and I have been looking at feats in the SRD, and have actually come to the supprising fact that no feat has a specific ability type that I can find in the SRD...

Except in Psionic feats:

Because psionic feats are supernatural abilities - a departure from the general rule that feats do not grant supernatural abilities - they cannot be disrupted in combat (as powers can be) and generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity (except as noted in their descriptions). Supernatural abilities are not subject to power resistance and cannot be dispelled; however, they do not function in areas where psionics is suppressed, such as a null psionics field. Leaving such an area immediately allows psionic feats to be used.



So, as far as I can tell, other than psionic feats, and any other feat that specifies that it is a supernatural or otherwise, it isn't supernatural or spell-like.

This includes metamagic feats, but they have their own rules, and specify that they do not stack. *EDIT: With themselves, i.e. no double empowered.

This gets me to a question, that I didn't look into myself when I first asked it, but does that mean that you could use a Warblade to modify an Improved Critical (Shortsword), into Improved Critical (Shortsword) applying to Scimitar, while you also have Improved Critical (Scimitar), to increase your crit range even further? Because as far as I can tell, none of the stacking rules specify or seem to technically apply to feats.

##2nd Edit: The ability in question, Moment of Clarity (Su) is giving the effect of the feat, not technically the feat. This in question would mean that the feat's effects are functioning as a Supernatural Ability, and wouldn't stack.

However, I still think that the Warblade thing would work, seeing that Weapon Aptitude is an Ex ability that is modifying the feat, not giving you the effect.

[dextercorvia]

Moment of Clarity is actually giving the feat.

[Axier]

Moment of Clarity is actually giving the feat.

I see that now, but as it has been stated, a Supernatural Ability does not stack with itself, and if a Supernatural Ability is giving you the same ability twice, I don't think it works because Su doesn't stack with itself.

[Telonius]

Gotcha. I was only applying temporal reiteration to one ability. Nice.

@Telonius: You are reading Spells as meaning more than just Spells because it occurs in a section that is talking about Spells and abilities. However the next sentence addresses spells and abilities. You are being unnecessarily generous with your reading of "Spells".

If the section only applies to spells, then it ought to be possible for a Warlock to stack Beguiling Influence on itself. (Invocations are Spell-like, usable at-will, the bonuses provided are "+6" with no other qualifiers, and the bonus is untyped).

If that's the case, he could theoretically get something like +14,400 to his diplomacy check if he sits around all day doing that. :smalleek:

EDIT: Maybe Shadow Walk would be a better example of that. Another untyped bonus, but this time regarding hit points (so no rolls involved). If it stacks with itself, two uses of it would heal you twice per hour, as though you'd rested. Three would heal you three times... invoke it however many times you need, and heal to full in an hour.

[Axier]

If the section only applies to spells, then it ought to be possible for a Warlock to stack Beguiling Influence on itself. (Invocations are Spell-like, usable at-will, the bonuses provided are "+6" with no other qualifiers, and the bonus is untyped).

If that's the case, he could theoretically get something like +14,400 to his diplomacy check if he sits around all day doing that. :smalleek:

Ex Abilities are never specifically talked about though, and as far as I can tell, Feats unless stated otherwise are either Ex, or nothing at all.

[dextercorvia]

If the section only applies to spells, then it ought to be possible for a Warlock to stack Beguiling Influence on itself. (Invocations are Spell-like, usable at-will, the bonuses provided are "+6" with no other qualifiers, and the bonus is untyped).

If that's the case, he could theoretically get something like +14,400 to his diplomacy check if he sits around all day doing that. :smalleek:

EDIT: Maybe Shadow Walk would be a better example of that. Another untyped bonus, but this time regarding hit points (so no rolls involved). If it stacks with itself, two uses of it would heal you twice per hour, as though you'd rested. Three would heal you three times... invoke it however many times you need, and heal to full in an hour.

You could, except we have this:


Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell

This means that the limitations of spell stacking apply to SLAs, not because they meant spells and magical abilities when they said spells, but because we have an additional rule saying that SLAs play by the same rules as spells (except as noted).