The Melee Fighter.

[Morithias]

"A melee fighter but a girl"

Is what the mate has requested for her first 3.5 game. I've gotten tons of suggestions from Warblade to Swashbuckler. I'm not sure how much to optimize the build, but I'm thinking I'll avoid prestige classes for the first little while.

I'm personally looking at Swashbuckler, but for all intents and purposes Swashbuckler isn't the greatest class. Barbarian was also suggested, although a Barbarian might be a bit out of place at a Boarding School, then again this is a campaign where I'm going back to basics and have basically thrown everything out the window short of the character sheets and the d20s.

I'm kinda lost, I want the class to be very simple, but I don't want her to be bored doing the same thing over and over again in combat. Then again it might not have that much combat depending on how we go at it.

What do you people think?

Tomb of battle isn't out...but at the same time I don't understand the tomb myself, and I have like ONE day to prep the character sheets.

[eggs]

If you're just looking for a simple melee build that doesn't do the same thing every round, Tome of Battle is the easy answer. It's a little more complicated than the base game, but if you either make or print out some maneuver cards, it shouldn't be too tough to catch on.

Plus, it self-optimizes to the extent that a new player can make her own character without being crippled by things like bad feat choices.

EDIT:
Ah, caught the edit. But it's like 10 minutes' reading and the complicated parts of the character sheet (maneuvers) are ready to print here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a).

[Duboris]

Moments like this I just go straight fighter. No Prestiges, No fancy shmancy stuff. Just. Fighter.

Usually the Defensive Archetype, though. full plate, tower shield, and a flail.

I like being basic :3

[Tvtyrant]

Are we assuming that melee=mundane? Because otherwise I think a Psychic Warrior would be the best bet. Have it focus on buffing its melee abilities (which is what it already does) and possibly take the Soulbound Weapon ACF if your mate doesn't want to hit things with claws.

The Psywarrior can become Huge, give itself tons of extra hitpoints, call claws or swords to itself, and make itself move faster. But it is designed to use all of this to hit things in the face!

[Zdrak]

Start with 2 levels of Ranger for the skill points. At level 2, take TWF. Then go 1-2 levels of Barbarian for the rage and totem powers. Starting from level 4 or 5, go into Tiger Claw Warblade.

[DeltaEmil]

The warblade class itself is easy. I guess that you don't understand maneuvers. Gaining maneuvers is like a sorcerer gaining a spell. Half of the initiator level (rounded down like always) determines the highest level of the maneuver that the martial adept can use. So a level 13 martial adept (swordsage, warblade or crusader) has access to level 6 maneuvers, just like a level 13 sorcerer can have level 6 spells.

The only problem regarding maneuvers is that some have prerequisites (to learn one maneuver, you might need to know some other maneuvers and stances).

[Morithias]

Moments like this I just go straight fighter. No Prestiges, No fancy shmancy stuff. Just. Fighter.

Usually the Defensive Archetype, though. full plate, tower shield, and a flail.

I like being basic :3

So spiked chain tripper? Or just sword and board fight defensively? It doesn't need to be super optimized...there are only two of us...so I won't be sending anything that dangerous at us.

Edit: maybe I should whip out the build I had for Alexis. The "Captain America who is female" build, she might like that.

[Keld Denar]

ToB isn't really that hard, especially Warblade. You can pick her maneuvers, or she can pick them herself. Just look at the list, and whichever ones sound coolest, probably are. For simplicity, just ignore the maneuver prereq part. Other than that, figure out what maneuvers of what levels she should have, and go from there.

ToB isn't that much more complicated for a person learning the game. There is already so much other stuff, if they learn ToB right along with it, it'll be seamless. I've put ToB characters in the hands of 1st timers, and they had no problem wrapping their heads around the idea of recharging maneuvers and whatnot.

EDIT: What level are you playing? I could whip out a quick Warblade in about 45 seconds, if you are interested.

[Morithias]

EDIT: What level are you playing? I could whip out a quick Warblade in about 45 seconds, if you are interested.

She's starting at level 4. If you're willing to do that, I'm not going to say no. Nice to know people on the forums are so helpful. (No that is NOT sarcasm, you're going to save me a ton of work and worry).

Edit: the sad part is that I actually do own the Tomb of Battle, I just never was able to understand it. And the one player who uses it, doesn't come to sessions like ever.

[Duboris]

Nothing too flashy. Primary Weapon would be between a Mace and a spiked chain. The armor would have spikes, as would the shield, and the helm, and the chain. That way whenever I grapple someone, they feel it.

It's basically a build I use that can protect people, and basically be a "Immovable Wall of Thorns"

I'd take points in cleric to add to the defensive abilities.

[Dusk Eclipse]

She's starting at level 4. If you're willing to do that, I'm not going to say no. Nice to know people on the forums are so helpful. (No that is NOT sarcasm, you're going to save me a ton of work and worry).

Edit: the sad part is that I actually do own the Tomb of Battle, I just never was able to understand it. And the one player who uses it, doesn't come to sessions like ever.

Luckily for you, the Warblade and maneuvers are free on the internet on this handy link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a)

If you are still interested I too can whip up a quick low-level Warblade, just give me a little more like THF with a big axe or quick one-handed swords(wo)man

[Duboris]

Totally not the place for this, but which feat is it that lets you wield a 2 handed weapon with just 1 hand? And what book is it in?

[Dusk Eclipse]

AFAIK there isn't a feat like that in 3.5, Monkey feat would let you one hand a large bastard sword (if you have proficiency) which IIRC is equivalent to a medium Greatsword at a -2 penalty. Not worth it.

[Morithias]

Luckily for you, the Warblade and maneuvers are free on the internet on this handy link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a)

If you are still interested I too can whip up a quick low-level Warblade, just give me a little more like THF with a big axe or quick one-handed swords(wo)man

Um..I'll get back to you on that since she didn't give me any details.

The only other person in the party is going to be a healer though, so she's basically going to be doing all the damage. So probably Two-handed fighting. No point in going all "+40 ac" or something, since the healer has more than enough spells to keep her alive, and most of the enemies i'm going to be sending are going to be relatively low level for the first few fights.

[Duboris]

AFAIK there isn't a feat like that in 3.5, Monkey feat would let you one hand a large bastard sword (if you have proficiency) which IIRC is equivalent to a medium Greatsword at a -2 penalty. Not worth it.

Huh. That's odd. In Pathfinder you can use a bastard sword 1 handed as a 1d10 Not too impressive, but anyone with Exotic proficiency in it could 1 hand it.

My group just assumes it's on level with a Zweihander.

[Keld Denar]

Stats: Str > Con > Dex > Int > Wis > Cha
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Toughness
Maneuvers:
Steel Wind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Moment of Perfect Mind, Emerald Razor, Mountain Hammer
Stances:
Punishing Stance, Hunters Sense
Skills: Concentration, Jump, Tumble, Balance, any others
Typical maneuvers ready:
Mountain Hammer, Emerald Razor, Moment of Perfect Mind, and either Steel Wind or Sapphire Nightmare Blade
Gear:
+1 melee weapon (greatsword or glaive)
+1 BP or Chain Shirt
+1 Cloak of Resistance
Misc gear like a backpack and rope

[Morithias]

Stats: Str > Con > Dex > Int > Wis > Cha
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Toughness
Maneuvers:
Steel Wind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Moment of Perfect Mind, Emerald Razor, Mountain Hammer
Stances:
Punishing Stance, Hunters Sense
Skills: Concentration, Jump, Tumble, Balance, any others
Typical maneuvers ready:
Mountain Hammer, Emerald Razor, Moment of Perfect Mind, and either Steel Wind or Sapphire Nightmare Blade
Gear:
+1 melee weapon (greatsword or glaive)
+1 BP or Chain Shirt
+1 Cloak of Resistance
Misc gear like a backpack and rope

Okay so basically copy all that to the sheets, fill out the numbers, then write on a blank sheet what all those things do?

[Zdrak]

Stats: Str > Con > Dex > Int > Wis > Cha
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Toughness
Maneuvers:
Steel Wind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Moment of Perfect Mind, Emerald Razor, Mountain Hammer
Stances:
Punishing Stance, Hunters Sense
Skills: Concentration, Jump, Tumble, Balance, any others
Typical maneuvers ready:
Mountain Hammer, Emerald Razor, Moment of Perfect Mind, and either Steel Wind or Sapphire Nightmare Blade
Gear:
+1 melee weapon (greatsword or glaive)
+1 BP or Chain Shirt
+1 Cloak of Resistance
Misc gear like a backpack and rope

I think you lack the prereq for Hunter's Sense.

[Answerer]

Crusader is by-far my preferred option for a new player. Always has something to do, does not have to actively manage resources but can't spam, and the granting mechanic prevents decision paralysis because it limits your options, generally, to only a couple of maneuvers.

[Duboris]

Okay so basically copy all that to the sheets, fill out the numbers, then write on a blank sheet what all those things do?

If you'd like I could potentially give you that "Straight Fighter" Idea I'd had.

However on a woman character I'd demand she be Evil, and a devout follower of Shocothbenoth.

And yes, she'd totally be of Dominatrix Mentality.

[Answerer]

I cannot recommend against Fighter strongly enough.

Building a Fighter that's actually competent is not easy, it is very hard. There is no leeway and no opportunity for forgiveness, and the options available are enormous and spread out across a ton of books. If you restrict her to Core, then she'll just be gimped. Does not sound like a recipe for fun to me.

Meanwhile, playing a Fighter is frequently boring. It's all too easy to fall into the "I full attack again" syndrome.

[Zdrak]

I cannot recommend against Fighter strongly enough.

Building a Fighter that's actually competent is not easy, it is very hard. There is no leeway and no opportunity for forgiveness, and the options available are enormous and spread out across a ton of books. If you restrict her to Core, then she'll just be gimped. Does not sound like a recipe for fun to me.

Meanwhile, playing a Fighter is frequently boring. It's all too easy to fall into the "I full attack again" syndrome.Plus, there is a total lack of skills, and hence boredom in out-of-combat situations usually ensues.

[Answerer]

That's a great point, yes. Crusaders and Warblades also have good reasons to have Cha and Int respectively, which is always good.

Mostly, the Fighter is a terribly-designed class, which makes it an exceedingly odd choice for introduction to the game. Better to start with the best stuff first, and that means Tome of Battle.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ok

Quick THF Warblade


Human Warblade 4 HP 47 (4d12+16)
Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 10 cha 8 (32 point buy)

1 Weapon Focus (Falchion)
Human Combat Reflexes
3 Power Attack

Maneuvers Known: 5
Maneuvers Readied
1st Level
Moment of the Perfect Mind
Sudden Leap
Steel Wind

2nd Level
Emerald Razor
Wall of Blades

Stances Known 2:
Hunter's Sense
Punishing Stance

BAB +4
Fort +6 Ref +5 Will +1

Skills
Balance 7 Ranks
Concentration 7 ranks
Intimidate 7 Ranks
Jump 7 Ranks
Spot 3.5 (CC) ranks
Listen 3.5 (CC) ranks
8 extra skill points for whatever you like

[Keld Denar]

I think you lack the prereq for Hunter's Sense.

Nope, I just switched it out at level 4. That's allowed.

[Firechanter]

Some notes:


Ok
Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 10 cha 8 (32 point buy)

Actually that's just a 28 point buy, if I'm not mistaken. ^^ Did you remember the ability boost at level 4?
With the boost and actually spending 32 points, she could have: 17/14/14/14/10/10 -- no need for dumpstat.

Concerning Stances:
Hunter's Sense is pretty cool as it grants a unique ability, but if the player isn't interested in having her character sniffing trails, the other Tiger Claw stance "Blood in the Water" is also pretty awesome, especially with weapons that have a wide threat range (such as the Falchion, but of course it really comes into its own with dual-wielded Khukris).

Now the following may sound a bit complicated but please bear with me:
As DM you should be aware that the Stance progression in the ToB is badly written, and you should consider moving the second stance from level 4 to 5, to allow the player to select a grade 3 stance. This is a very common houserule among ToB users.

As written, a Warblade must pick 2 level 1 stances but doesn't get the chance to take a level 3 stance until class level 10, when it would be stupid to do so because by that time you have access to level 5 stances. It also means that a multiclass character gets access to a Warblade class feature quicker than a single-classed Warblade.
All of that is plain silly. Hence the bugfix to move the second stance to level 5.

[dascarletm]

"A melee fighter but a girl"

Is what the mate has requested for her first 3.5 game. I've gotten tons of suggestions from Warblade to Swashbuckler. I'm not sure how much to optimize the build, but I'm thinking I'll avoid prestige classes for the first little while.

I'm personally looking at Swashbuckler, but for all intents and purposes Swashbuckler isn't the greatest class. Barbarian was also suggested, although a Barbarian might be a bit out of place at a Boarding School, then again this is a campaign where I'm going back to basics and have basically thrown everything out the window short of the character sheets and the d20s.

I'm kinda lost, I want the class to be very simple, but I don't want her to be bored doing the same thing over and over again in combat. Then again it might not have that much combat depending on how we go at it.

What do you people think?

Tomb of battle isn't out...but at the same time I don't understand the tomb myself, and I have like ONE day to prep the character sheets.

I say let players learn as they go, suggest them the vanilla flavor. In this case the Fighter.

Nothing wrong with a low-op campaign, just give em appropriate challenges.

[Morithias]

Some notes:



Actually that's just a 28 point buy, if I'm not mistaken. ^^ Did you remember the ability boost at level 4?
With the boost and actually spending 32 points, she could have: 17/14/14/14/10/10 -- no need for dumpstat.

Snip

Thanks for the tip. It seems what a level 4 warblade should be is fairly well understood. Now to print up the sheet and the cards and such.

[Eldariel]

If you want a real "smart fighter"-archetype (which I assume is what the point is here), Factotum 4/Warblade 16 (or well, Warblade onwards) is a very solid option. It loses one BAB but Factotum gives Int to just about everything for Inspiration points (and you can get more Inspiration through Font of Inspiration feat).

This gives her a lot of skill points to do whatever she wants with, the ability to 3xEncounter add Int to Attack, Damage, AC or Save for one roll and Int to all physical checks and skills. Then just the Warblade maneuvers, starting from level 2 access on level 5.


Of course, straight Warblade works too but if she wants to utilize the Intelligence more, Factotum is a fine option.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Luckily for you, the Warblade and maneuvers are free on the internet on this handy link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a)

Er... he said he DOES own Tome (or as he calls it, Tomb) of Battle.

[Keld Denar]

Concerning Stances:
Hunter's Sense is pretty cool as it grants a unique ability, but if the player isn't interested in having her character sniffing trails, the other Tiger Claw stance "Blood in the Water" is also pretty awesome, especially with weapons that have a wide threat range (such as the Falchion, but of course it really comes into its own with dual-wielded Khukris).

BITW doesn't really come into it's own with a single 2handed weapon in most cases. The combat might not last more than a few rounds, and you probably won't get more than 1 crit, even with a 18-20 weapon. Contrast with Punishing Stance's consistent 1d6 (average 3.5) damage, and BITW takes a little too long to get going that it generally won't catch up in total damage before the combat is over.

But yea, I'd highly suggest to the OP to bump back stance acquisition by 1 level above 1st for Warblades so that they can actually get a meaningful upgrade without multiclassing.

[Morithias]

Er... he said he DOES own Tome (or as he calls it, Tomb) of Battle.

GOD DAMMIT WHY DO I KEEP MAKING THAT MISTAKE!

Seriously that's starting to annoy me! And I'm the one doing it!

[Kelb_Panthera]

The op mentioned in another thread related to this same campaign that the player he's making this sheet for is familiar with 4E. Warblade should be very easily within her grasp*.

I hate this comparison, but it's accurate so I'll use it anyway.

A martial adept's maneuvers known are like a sorcerer's spells known; He gets a certain number as defined by his class table.

Their use is more like a wizard's use of spells though, in that he can only use a portion of his maneuvers known at one time and normally can only use each one once (unlike a wizard you can't "prepare" more than one use of a maneuver).

The glaring difference between maneuvers and spells is this: maneuvers refresh at the end of the encounter in all cases, and each of the martial adept classes has a means of refreshing them during combat, they're not just 1/day things. That and some of them have prerequisites. These prereq's are pretty broad though; just X number of maneuvers from the same discipline.

Stances are more like a martial or dragon shaman's auras. They're either on or they're not, and you can switch between them freely as a swift action.

Does that help you understand how they work a bit better?

*This comment is not intended to say that ToB and 4E are similar beyond the level of complexity of the resultant characters.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Some notes:



Actually that's just a 28 point buy, if I'm not mistaken. ^^ Did you remember the ability boost at level 4?
With the boost and actually spending 32 points, she could have: 17/14/14/14/10/10 -- no need for dumpstat.

Concerning Stances:
Hunter's Sense is pretty cool as it grants a unique ability, but if the player isn't interested in having her character sniffing trails, the other Tiger Claw stance "Blood in the Water" is also pretty awesome, especially with weapons that have a wide threat range (such as the Falchion, but of course it really comes into its own with dual-wielded Khukris).

Now the following may sound a bit complicated but please bear with me:
As DM you should be aware that the Stance progression in the ToB is badly written, and you should consider moving the second stance from level 4 to 5, to allow the player to select a grade 3 stance. This is a very common houserule among ToB users.

As written, a Warblade must pick 2 level 1 stances but doesn't get the chance to take a level 3 stance until class level 10, when it would be stupid to do so because by that time you have access to level 5 stances. It also means that a multiclass character gets access to a Warblade class feature quicker than a single-classed Warblade.
All of that is plain silly. Hence the bugfix to move the second stance to level 5.

Thanks for catching the point buy mistake, I used a stat array from memory and swore it was 32 equivalent.


Er... he said he DOES own Tome (or as he calls it, Tomb) of Battle.

My mistake, I thought he said he didn't actually own and the player who did own the book rarely went to sessions.

[Morithias]

Thanks for all the help people. I understand this a lot better now! I should be able to hand this to her and help her understand and play a basic game! Thanks for all your help!

[Mystral]

What does she even mean with "but a girl"?

Maybe you should mention that girls and guys are mechanically the same in D&D?

[Morithias]

What does she even mean with "but a girl"?

Maybe you should mention that girls and guys are mechanically the same in D&D?

She's not 100% sane. I think she just assumed that I make most of my characters as guys. Which isn't true since I usually play girls. Either way I've done the work, so might as well give her the warblade, I'm sure she won't complain.