PrCs for my sorcerer//cleric gestalt?

[Zelkon]

I'm looking for help in making my 10th level gestated sorcerer//cleric better. Primarily I'm looking for optimal PrCs but I would be willing to take any advice. So far I don't have a build, but I'm mainly just looking for what would be good in general.

[eggs]

In general, you're going to want to take advantage of the two spell sets without getting bogged down with the action economy.

I'd recommend focusing on long-duration Cleric buffs (or extending the spells to long-duration effects), and using Sorcerer's ridiculous spell output to its fullest effect to build an offense (Arcane Fusion, Spellsurge, Imbue Familiar with Spell ability, Celerity, Contingency, Spell Matrices, etc).

Maybe dipping Prestige Paladin on the Cleric side for access to some of their unique effects (like Favor of the Martyr, which works particularly well with Celerities).

[Exirtadorri]

Wouldnt mystic theurge be a good idea? You get double spell advancement and the ability to simultaneously cast an arcane and divine spell. Im new to this whole advice thing but it would seem a solid choice to me

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) will get you way more skill points/level, and you can stick with that and prestige on the Sorcerer side.

Thaumaturgist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/thaumaturgist.htm) is extremely strong, you can qualify with Cleric but use it to advance your Sorcerer casting. If you take it as early as possible, then at level 12 you can have a Ghaele (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm) for your planar cohort.

Dweomerkeeper (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a) would be extremely fitting for an arcane//divine gestalt.

Incantatrix in PGtF is the go-to for powerful spellcaster prestige classes.

[eggs]

Wouldnt mystic theurge be a good idea? You get double spell advancement and the ability to simultaneously cast an arcane and divine spell. Im new to this whole advice thing but it would seem a solid choice to me
Gestalt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/fey) is a variant that makes classes like MT both redundant and illegal.

Cleric//Sorcerer is a solid setup, but the trick is going to be avoiding the problem gestalt builds tend to have, where they have two classes' worth of actions available, but can only activate one at a time. This makes them as versatile as both classes combined, but no more powerful than either. Normally the goal with gestalt builds is to maintain that versatility, but also eke some power out of the combination. For example, a Blast-focused Warlock//Barbarian is going to have all the actions available to it as the Barbarian and the Warlock, but neither skillset improves the other one; but in a build like Factotum//Wizard, the factotum's abilities to take extra actions, ignrore spell resistance and boost various numbers as a non-action make the Wizard side better at Wizarding. This is usually modeled by saying one side needs to be "passive" and the other "active" to keep actions from clashing; that's a bit simplistic, but generally fair.

But in this case, I don't think that's going to be a huge problem - Cleric has a lot of long-duration buffs that can effectively act as a "passive" side on their own, as well as access to effects like Divine Spell Power that can cross over and improve the Sorcerer side's schtick, and enough versatility that the Sorcerer side can hyperspecialize into a handful-of-tricks nova caster and probably get away with it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Definitely take the feat Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon. With that you can spend two spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, so you could spend Sorcerer slots to cast spells from your Cleric list. It will give you spontaneous access to the entire Cleric list for those situational spells that you may not have prepared, plus it lets you cast your higher level Sorcerer spells more often. Pick up the spell Arcane Spellsurge from Dragon Magic and you can actually use all those spell slots.

[Zelkon]

Why is incantatrix considered so good? It's only worth it after 7 levels... Well, I guess I can work with that... but are there not other good ones? Also, isn't Ur-priest quite good?

[Jeff the Green]

Gestalt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/fey) is a variant that makes classes like MT both redundant and illegal.

Redundant, yes. Illegal, no. It only recommends disallowing classes like mystic theurge.

Also, isn't Ur-priest quite good?
Sure, but it's a bit redundant when you're already a cleric.

[Jack_Simth]

Also, isn't Ur-priest quite good?It is and it isn't. The full strength of the Ur-Priest is... complicated.

For most builds, the big draw of Ur-Priest is the rapid spell progression - a Monk-2/Bard-3/Ur-Priest-9 is a 14th level character that has access to 9th level spells. Well, one or two, anyway. 9th level spell access, a full 3 levels early. But it also starts five levels late on picking spells up. That same build, at character level 6, is just then getting access to 1st level Divine spells, which the Cleric has had from the get-go. At character level 7, the Ur-Priest is at 2nd level spells, while the Cleric is at 4th. And so on. The Ur-priest has 5th level spells at character level 10 (this is when the Ur-Priest starts to catch up to the Cleric), at which point the cleric has already had them for a full level. At character level 11, both the Cleric and the Ur-Priest gain access to 6th level spells. The Ur-Priest starts pulling ahead at character level 12 (Ur-Priest level 7), in that the Ur-Priest now has 7th level spell access, while the Cleric is stuck at 6th. At 13th, again, the Ur-Priest has 8th's, and the Cleric only has 7ths. At 14th, the Ur-Priest pulls further ahead - 9th level spells, while the Cleric only has 7ths. This is as far ahead as the Ur-Priest gets. At 15th, the Cleric has 8ths, the Ur-Priest has 9ths. At 16th, it's the same, and at 17th, the Cleric has both 9th level spell access and more spells-per-day than the Ur-Priest. So really, except those builds that work in early entry shenanigans, the Ur-Priest "sweet spot" for someone concerned primarily with spell access is character levels 12 to 16, when it's ahead of a pure Cleric. This applies to most Ur-Priest builds (many Ur-Priest builds PrC out again after just one or two levels). You'll find most Ur-Priest builds you find online are Theurges of some stripe (Wizard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Arcane PrC-4 is a popular build, as are variants on a Sublime Ur-Theurge: Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge(Ur-Priest/Bard)-3/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge(Sublime Chord/Ur-Priest)-5/Arcane PrC(Sublime Chord)-4).

The minus side, however, is that the Ur-Priest gets very few spells-per-day. At character level 10 (class level 5), the Ur-Priest's base spells-per-day is 6/3/3/2/1/0 - while the Cleric-10's base Spells-per-day is 6/4+1/4+1/3+1/3+1/2+1. The Cleric has a lot more "staying power" than does the Ur-Priest.

However: The Ur-Priest does have a potentially overpowered class feature: Steal spell-like ability, the 10th level capstone. Specifically, this becomes overpowered when the Ur-Priest meets an Efreeti (or calls one up via Planar Ally...) as the Ur-Priest can then grant himself three Wishes that day, without paying the 15,000 xp that would require (possibly more - he can use them to make magic items, technically). Pay 250 xp, Call up an Efreeti, fail to come to an agreement with it, and steal it's spell-like ability during negotiations (it's a Su ability - at most, the Ur-Priest pauses a moment when listening to the Efreeti). And then grant yourself three Wishes sometime later over the course of the day. Other uses of the capstone are not nearly so broken (and there's ways to bypass the 250 xp cost).

However, for most builds, if you're already taking Cleric, taking Ur-Priest is decidedly counter-productive.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Why is incantatrix considered so good? It's only worth it after 7 levels... Well, I guess I can work with that... but are there not other good ones? Also, isn't Ur-priest quite good?

Ur-Priest will actually cause you to lose all of your Cleric casting and other class features, so it's actually a really bad choice for this character.

Be sure you're looking at the PGtF Incantatrix, and not the 3.0 version from MoF that can also be found online. Its Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect abilities at 2nd and 3rd level allow you to add Persistent Spell to one of your buffs after you've cast it, for absolutely no spell slot increase. Note that Cooperative Metamagic can be used on your own spells outside of combat as the action economy system only exists during initiative. You can take ten on the Spellcraft checks to use those abilities, so get a custom item with a Competence bonus to Spellcraft and you've got six plus twice your Int bonus persistent buffs every day.

With Sorcerer you can get a custom Runestaff (MIC p224) which allows you to cast select buffs 1/day via your spell slots as though you know the spells, so you're not wasting spells known on any of those. You can guarantee that you've got all the spells you want on the Runestaff and even switch which spells it provides if you take Ancestral Relic (BoED).

Starting at 10th level, I'd go Cloistered Cleric 10// Sorcerer 5/ Dweomerkeeper 1/ Incantatrix 4. Plan on taking Cloistered Cleric to 20, and get one level of Contemplative and then nine more Dweomerkeeper on the Sorcerer side. Say you visited the Otyugh Hole detailed in CS to get Iron Will for 3,000 gp instead of spending a feat on it. When using Dweomerkeeper characters will often take either the Rune or Planning domain along with Magic, to help meet its feat prerequisites. Your Contemplative level should definitely give you the Destiny domain, so you can persist its 9th level spell.

[Zelkon]

Ur-Priest will actually cause you to lose all of your Cleric casting and other class features, so it's actually a really bad choice for this character.

Be sure you're looking at the PGtF Incantatrix, and not the 3.0 version from MoF that can also be found online. Its Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect abilities at 2nd and 3rd level allow you to add Persistent Spell to one of your buffs after you've cast it, for absolutely no spell slot increase. Note that Cooperative Metamagic can be used on your own spells outside of combat as the action economy system only exists during initiative. You can take ten on the Spellcraft checks to use those abilities, so get a custom item with a Competence bonus to Spellcraft and you've got six plus twice your Int bonus persistent buffs every day. Ah, makes more sense now. I'll go for it.


With Sorcerer you can get a custom Runestaff (MIC p224) which allows you to cast select buffs 1/day via your spell slots as though you know the spells, so you're not wasting spells known on any of those. You can guarantee that you've got all the spells you want on the Runestaff and even switch which spells it provides if you take Ancestral Relic (BoED).
Starting at 10th level, I'd go Cloistered Cleric 10// Sorcerer 5/ Dweomerkeeper 1/ Incantatrix 4. Plan on taking Cloistered Cleric to 20, and get one level of Contemplative and then nine more Dweomerkeeper on the Sorcerer side. Say you visited the Otyugh Hole detailed in CS to get Iron Will for 3,000 gp instead of spending a feat on it. When using Dweomerkeeper characters will often take either the Rune or Planning domain along with Magic, to help meet its feat prerequisites. Your Contemplative level should definitely give you the Destiny domain, so you can persist its 9th level spell.
This is an arena game, so cloistered cleric isn't that useful, and you get 10 components, 2 of which are taken up on both cleric and sorcerer, and 1 for the first two PrCs, 2 more for each after, so taking more than two PrCs is quite crippling.