One Shot - One Kill 3.5

[BowStreetRunner]

I have been tossing around an idea in my head for a sniper character that takes advantage of the Crossbow Sniper feat to snipe from 60 ft and has levels in both Assassin and Black Flame Zealot to get the DC of his Death Attack as high as possible.

I'm just not sure on what sort of entry to use for this combination. I want all levels from 6-20 to be in either Assassin or BFZ, so that means the first five levels need to qualify me for one of the two prestige classes, including 2nd level divine spells regardless of which prestige class I plan on taking first, since I won't be able to get that from Assassin levels regardless. Here are the entry requirements for each:

Black Flame Zealot: nongood; Hide 8, Knowledge (religion) 8, Move Silently 8; Exotic Weapon Proficiency (kukri), Iron Will; cast 2nd level divine; Sneak Attack +1d6
Assassin: evil; Disguise 4, Hide 8, Move Silently 8; fluff

No setting-specific sources are allowed (so no Eberron, Forgotten Realms, etc.) and Unearthed Arcana is banned. Otherwise, most every other official 3.5 book is allowed.

For the divine caster requirement, I am thinking that Archivist has better skill points and being INT-based has better synergy with my Death Attack, and the Dark Knowledge might be a nice bonus too. A Cleric of the right god (almost any published 3.5 god is allowed, despite the restriction on other source-specific materials) might benefit from a decent set of domains (War maybe?), will be able to use rebuke attempts to power divine feats, and will have an additional point of BAB over the Archivist. A Druid isn't out of the question either.

For the other two levels, Rogue would certainly give me a start on sneak-attack dice, while Ranger has the right skills and keeps full BAB. I am sure there are lots of other classes I am not thinking of as well. However, the elimination of Unearthed Arcana rules out a couple of decent alternatives right away.

Help me Playground, you're my only hope!

[ImpieBA]

For the other class, I think ninja (Complete Adventurer) over the rogue. They have the rogue's BAB, sudden strike, which is basically sneak attack, only you don't get the advantage of flanking. It even has a side note saying that it counts as sneak attack in all respects, as well as stacking damage, so that's nifty. Plus, they have a ki pool equal to 1/2 class level plus the wisdom modifier. Even if you only take two levels in that class, you can become invisible for a round as a swift action, netting some neat sniping shots. They can't wear armor, but they do get an ac bonus. As for divine caster, I'd set up with cleric of Olidammara. It means you have to be chaotic evil if dm rules you have to be evil for the assassin class, but it gets you the luck domain, which is awesome, and the fantastic trickery domain.

[Ardantis]

You seem to have this pretty well thought-out. When I saw your post, I thought "One shot, one kill, wrong system," but Death Attack is certainly the way to go. Plus things you can't kill will actually be scary, tense, and exciting. You will either be predator or prey, going for the kill or hiding for your very survival. Sick.

As for actual additional comments, since damage is not actually the goal of your build, I would forget about it entirely (like sneak attack). Rogue is necessary only to catch up on skills (and even then I'd take Factotum).

Archivist nets you more spells and Dark Knowledge (critical for researching your marks), but Cleric gives you turning and divine feats. I can't think of any divine feats for this build, but then again I've only used the combat ones. Travel domain would be pretty busted, though.

Don't forget the skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel, they can enhance your mobility and give you several one-shot combat tricks. You may not need to fight in close combat often, but when you do, you want it to be over as quickly and as cheaply as possible, and burning a bunch of one-shot skill tricks can get you out of a tight spot.

That's all I've got for now, I think Archivist vs. Cleric should be handled by someone with immediate access to sourcebooks.

[dextercorvia]

It's kind of cheesy, but Bloodline levels will add to all of your Death Attack classes for the purpose of calculating DC.

Reread and saw no UA.

[Jeff the Green]

How are you using Death Attack at range? It specifies a melee weapon and Crossbow Sniper doesn't seem to change that.

[Tvtyrant]

Wouldn't it be easiest to simply pick up Death Attack and then find a way to boost intelligence through the roof?

[BowStreetRunner]

How are you using Death Attack at range? It specifies a melee weapon and Crossbow Sniper doesn't seem to change that.

&@#$!&*!!! :smallfurious: I can't believe I missed that one word in the ability description. I don't suppose anyone knows of a way to make a ranged death attack?

You know, I've been trying to make a decent sniper build since 3rd edition first came out and should have known better than to get my hopes up now. :smallfrown:

[eggs]

Sniper's Eye (level 4 spell, SpC) and Bloodstorm Blade are the only ways I know to make a ranged Death Attack.

Most of the normal ways of improving Death Attack are setting- or melee-specific, so I'm going to bite my tongue on suggestions until I've done some more rooting around, but generally speaking, it's easier to debuff your targets' saves than it is to boost Death Attack DCs.

[MrLemon]

Switch from Crossbows to thrown weapons, take 1 level of Warblade and 2 of Bloodstorm Blade.
Treat your throw as a melee attack.

I didn't read up on death attack, but it should work I guess

EDIT: Swordsage'd

[eggs]

Depending on level, the True Thief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) Lurk with Ranged Augment can make ranged death attacks and, by RAW, shares the Assassin's DC formula (10+Level+Int), which is a bit silly on a base class.

Of course, that wouldn't be the first poorly-conceived/written/executed ACF in that article, so it may deserve some serious skepticism already.

EDIT:
This thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7841.5) may also provide some ideas, but it spans a lot of materials that may be out of bounds.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Ability Focus: +2 DC

Bracers of Murder: +2 DC, +2 attack and damage against flat-footed targets, reroll ones on sneak attack or sudden strike. 8000gp. (This is from DotU, so not sure if it counts as 'setting specific')

Also is Dragon Magazine allowed for use, and if not what about Dragon Compendium, seeing as it is a book?

[Jeff the Green]

Well, an at-will item of sniper's eye would cost 50,400 gp. A wand would be 21,000.

Bloodstorm blade works, but you can't get in until 6th, so you'll be giving up assassin levels. You could go rogue 1/archivist 3/warblade 1/bloodstorm blade 2/bfz 10/assassin 8. In that case, use an atlatl from frostburn. It's a thrown weapon, but it has a range of 50 ft.

[BowStreetRunner]

Sniper's Eye (level 4 spell, SpC)

Okay, Sniper's Eye is in fact a 4th level Assassin spell, so that means my build is still possible. That's good news. I knew there was a reason I brought this to the Playground. :smallsmile:


For the other class, I think ninja (Complete Adventurer) over the rogue. They have the rogue's BAB, sudden strike, which is basically sneak attack, only you don't get the advantage of flanking. It even has a side note saying that it counts as sneak attack in all respects, as well as stacking damage, so that's nifty. Plus, they have a ki pool equal to 1/2 class level plus the wisdom modifier. Even if you only take two levels in that class, you can become invisible for a round as a swift action, netting some neat sniping shots. They can't wear armor, but they do get an ac bonus.

Ninja certainly fits the bill fairly well. You are right that sudden strike works fine, as I am not generally going to be planning to use flanking to trigger the death attack ability during sniping attempts. The invisibility is a nice plus as well.


Wouldn't it be easiest to simply pick up Death Attack and then find a way to boost intelligence through the roof?

I certainly will by trying to boost my intelligence through the roof as well. As my Death Attack DC will be 10 + Assassin levels + Black Flame Zealot levels + INT modifier, I will want to raise each of these as high as possible. In a 20 level build, I can only pick up 10 Assassin levels or 10 Black Flame Zealot levels, which would mean that unless I take both there are 10 other levels that don't help my DC. With the two combined, I can pick up 15 class levels of Death Attack before I hit epic levels, at which point I should be able to continue whichever of the two I choose to max out.


Ability Focus: +2 DC

Bracers of Murder: +2 DC, +2 attack and damage against flat-footed targets, reroll ones on sneak attack or sudden strike. 8000gp. (This is from DotU, so not sure if it counts as 'setting specific')

Also is Dragon Magazine allowed for use, and if not what about Dragon Compendium, seeing as it is a book?

Ability Focus is a good one, and the DotU is allowed, so the Bracers would be in as well. I like both ideas.

Dragon Magazine and Dungeon Magazine (even the Compendium) are not allowed however.

[Tvtyrant]

Don't forget that Legacy Champion and some other class (uncanny trickster?) progress everything from a prior class, so you could elongate one of the two out to 15 levels.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Just remember, you need three rounds of observation to initiate a Death Attack, so it is not an attach which you can spam every round. You may wish to simply be able to deal enough damage to one-shot anything you can reasonably expect to encounter.

If you're wanting to keep the sniper idea, you may wish to consider Scout/Ranger (Swift Hunter). Maybe a dip into Cloistered Cleric for Travel Devotion to let you move around, and Knowledge Devotion for static bonus damage.

[Tvtyrant]

If only you could get some form of Time Stop, as each time it ends you would be able to make your death attack.

[BowStreetRunner]

Don't forget that Legacy Champion and some other class (uncanny trickster?) progress everything from a prior class, so you could elongate one of the two out to 15 levels.

We already had this come up and the DM has ruled on it. Nothing can extend a class beyond its normal progression until you reach epic levels. (And even then you can only extend a 10-level prestige class.) Which is why I was so excited when I saw that Black Flame Zealot's Death Attack ability explicitly stated that it stacks with others.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If only you could get some form of Time Stop, as each time it ends you would be able to make your death attack.
Not just getting some form of Time Stop, but getting it as an at-will usage, otherwise the trick would only work x number of times a day, and you'll likely need it more than that if you are using it a minimum of once per round per encounter.

Also, you'd need some way of auto-Maximizing or auto-Empowering or you'll occasionally end up with only two rounds out of time instead of three.

[Tvtyrant]

I was going to suggest Trapsmith-Swiftblade and then use the "convert spell into timestop" ability, but then I realized his death attack would be rubbish.

The death attack system seems to be crafted for either NPC use against a party or single-person play, since you have to spend most of your time hidden and not doing anything.

[Jeff the Green]

The death attack system seems to be crafted for either NPC use against a party or single-person play, since you have to spend most of your time hidden and not doing anything.

You can also open with a death attack and then use regular tactics from thereon out.

[eggs]

Deathsight from Complete Mage auto-preps a Death Attack without jumping through timestop hoops. If using Sniper's Eye, that'd put a huge strain on both prep time and level 4 spells, but with either magic item chicanery or Bloodstorm Blade in place of SE, it could make things a bit easier.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wasn't there another class that granted a stacking death attack? You might be able to get around that divine casting requirement if I'm not mistaken.

As for the two assassin spells, that's what wands are for. Two 4th level wands is kinda pricey, but since they both make your schtick work so much better, they're worth it.

Also, extrapolating the cost for the assassin's dagger's dc boost is pretty simple, you might ask your DM if you can make a sniper's crossbow. The +1 to death attack's save dc is 10,000gp if you reverse engineer the assassin's dagger.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Deathsight from Complete Mage auto-preps a Death Attack without jumping through timestop hoops. If using Sniper's Eye, that'd put a huge strain on both prep time and level 4 spells, but with either magic item chicanery or Bloodstorm Blade in place of SE, it could make things a bit easier.

Hmm... now the only question is how to spam a 4th level Assassin spell. It is a Divination spell, so AbChamp wouldn't work. With sufficient Metamagic Reduction tactics, you might be able to make it Repeating. That would at least extend them, Pearls of Power and Rings of Arcana might also work to extend your number of 4th level spell slots.

[eggs]

Wasn't there another class that granted a stacking death attack? You might be able to get around that divine casting requirement if I'm not mistaken.
There are a bunch, but most are either Forgotten Realms or Eberron.
Going off some notes I jotted down a while ago which may not be complete: Telflammar Shadowlord (UE), Black Dog (Dragonmarked) and Monk of the Long death (PGtF) and Imaskari Vengeance Seeker (Underdark) and the usual Legacy Champion (WoL) and Uncanny Trickster (CS) shenanigans all stack, but it sounds like all those were nixed.

If going BFZ, it also might be worth pointing out one of the details from the thread I linked: Dragon Magazine #322 has the Deathstalker of Bhall prestige class for divine casters. It doesn't do much for casting, but its class level counts twice toward death attack DCs (the class is 5 levels total).

[BowStreetRunner]

Okay, so far I am leaning toward Ninja 2 / Archivist 3 / Assassin 10 / Black Flame Zealot 5. Unless some strong argument for a different build comes up I think this should work okay.

Abilities would be prioritized INT > WIS > DEX > CON > STR > CHA

Next thing to decide is race. Human, Whisper Gnome or Grey Elf all come to mind.


Human makes the skill prerequisites less painful due to either Able Learner or just using favored class 'any' to take Ninja at 1st and 5th to avoid cross-class penalties on Hide & Move Silently ranks. Bonus feat and extra skill point work for this build too.
Whisper Gnome has bonuses to the two middle priority ability scores and takes its penalties in dump stats, is well built for stealth, and has good senses. Favored class is Rogue however, so in order to avoid XP penalties (yes, we use them in our campaign) for multiclassing I would probably have to pay for some skills cross-class somewhere.
Grey Elf gets a bonus to a high priority stat and a medium priority stat, but takes a penalty to a medium priority stat and a low priority stat. Other than the INT boost though I would consider Whisper Gnome superior.


Are there any other races I should be seriously looking at? We do not have LA buyoff, so I don't really want to go with any sort of level adjustment.

[gorfnab]

Justice of Weald and Woe (Champions of Ruin) prestige class - has ranged Death Attack (longbow only) and is designed for sniping.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's no xp penalty in that build. PrC's never count toward taking xp penalties and your two base classes are only one level apart.

I'd probably pick the whisper gnome. This is a build for which stealth is the top priority and, as you noted, whisper gnome is the stealthiest of the three by far.

Btw, why wis before dex? That DC doesn't mean anything if the attack misses and sniping requires either an absurd hide modifier or a pretty good distance, both of which make dex an important factor.

[BowStreetRunner]

Justice of Weald and Woe (Champions of Ruin) prestige class - has ranged Death Attack (longbow only) and is designed for sniping.

Champions of Ruin is Forgotten Realms. Not an option. :smallfrown:


There's no xp penalty in that build. PrC's never count toward taking xp penalties and your two base classes are only one level apart.

The problem is Hide and Move Silently are class skills for Ninja and not Archivist. So if I take my 3rd level of Archivist before I take my 2nd level of Ninja, I run into XP penalty until Ninja catches up. But if I take Archivist at 5th level I end up having to get my 8th rank in those skills cross-class. It's one of those P.I.T.A. details my DM would always catch and enforce. Not sure how much the actual XP cost would work out to be though. Just one level (and a low one at that) might not set me too far behind.

[Abemad]

You should find a way to make room for sickening strike and terrifying strike from Drow of the Underdark, both are ambush feats that adds -2 to saves for 1d6 sneak attack (requires 2d6 to take, specifically adds sickened and frightened). While it doesn't work on all opponents, I still think its better than ability focus, since your teammates can benefit from it as well :smallsmile:

[Saintheart]

Don't forget you don't necessarily have to pump DC, you can also debuff their Fort saves, which is what Death Attack checks against. I'm looking at one or two of the Ambush Feats -- from memory Sickening Strike and/or Staggering Strike do damage to an opponent's saves at the cost of sneak attack dice. The builds out of the Poisoner's Handbook argue that these debuffs are applied before the Death Attack kicks in at the same time, so it's an alternative to boosting your save DC through the stratosphere.

EDIT: Damn those Viking ninjas! :smallbiggrin:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Champions of Ruin is Forgotten Realms. Not an option. :smallfrown:



The problem is Hide and Move Silently are class skills for Ninja and not Archivist. So if I take my 3rd level of Archivist before I take my 2nd level of Ninja, I run into XP penalty until Ninja catches up. But if I take Archivist at 5th level I end up having to get my 8th rank in those skills cross-class. It's one of those P.I.T.A. details my DM would always catch and enforce. Not sure how much the actual XP cost would work out to be though. Just one level (and a low one at that) might not set me too far behind.

Xp is a river, you'll catch back up and you won't be behind very much or very often. You'll have to decide if fighting a battle or two at one level below the others each level is worth 2skill points or not, assuming noone ever gets level drained or deliberately expends XP. Mind you that's at most 1 battle out of around 7 each level, going by the DMG guidlines.

I'd rather take the xp penalty, myself.

I could see burning the two skill-points if you're really keen on skill-tricks though. You won't be maxed out across the board anyway if you go that route.

[Jeff the Green]

Xp is a river, you'll catch back up and you won't be behind very much or very often. You'll have to decide if fighting a battle or two at one level below the others each level is worth 2skill points or not, assuming noone ever gets level drained or deliberately expends XP. Mind you that's at most 1 battle out of around 7 each level, going by the DMG guidlines.

I'd rather take the xp penalty, myself.

Agreed. You'll be ~1200 xp behind them when they hit 6th level, which is half of one EL 6 encounter. If you go three encounters before you get a chance to level up (say, if you only level when you rest/go back to town), you'll end up ahead of your party.

You could also point out (very nicely) to your DM that no race has a favored class other than the core 11, which shafts characters that want to play something different. Maybe ask to swap the whisper gnome's rogue for ninja; they're similar enough to work.

[BowStreetRunner]

The builds out of the Poisoner's Handbook argue that these debuffs are applied before the Death Attack kicks in at the same time, so it's an alternative to boosting your save DC through the stratosphere.

The way I have been reading the Death Attack ability, first they attempt their save. If they fail, they die. If they succeed, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Now you go ahead and resolve the sneak attack normally.

I would love to see anything that suggests that the effects of an ambush feat are able to be applied before the Death Attack save. One of the problems I've been having with decent options for lowering an opponent's saves is the whole '3 rounds of study' requirement before the Death Attack. I don't want to drop a bunch of save-lowering effects on someone, then spend 3 rounds studying them. It's like painting someone with a bullseye and then asking them to sit still while you line up your shot.

[Saintheart]

Well, on a very quick inspection, combining magical effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects) says that two or more spells with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same target, so you could argue that the debuffs hit before the Death Attack does, or the debuffs affect the saving throw the person has to make against the Death Attack.

For lowering the whole 3 rounds of study, Deathsight or a custom magic item of Deathsight is probably your best bet.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well, on a very quick inspection, combining magical effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects) says that two or more spells with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same target, so you could argue that the debuffs hit before the Death Attack does, or the debuffs affect the saving throw the person has to make against the Death Attack.

For lowering the whole 3 rounds of study, Deathsight or a custom magic item of Deathsight is probably your best bet.

Alternately, subtle debuffs or an allied debuffer. Bestow curse comes to mind as a nasty save trashing effect that has no obvious source or effect to give away your position. Hit the target from hiding. He'll suddenly feel not-so-good and maybe a bit paranoid, but unless you flub the hide-check he still doesn't know you're there until the bolt hits him. Whether the curse comes from a scroll or an allied wizard or cleric is immaterial.

The biggest issue is making your allies wait three rounds or having to sit still and not do anything for the first three rounds of combat until you can either cast or afford an item for deathsight.

[BowStreetRunner]

The biggest issue is making your allies wait three rounds or having to sit still and not do anything for the first three rounds of combat until you can either cast or afford an item for deathsight.

I anticipate this character being in an advanced position when using his death attack. The idea is that the death attack would be made on an otherwise unsuspecting target, and combat would follow. My goal is to be able to go in and take out a strategic target in order to give my party the advantage in the upcoming battle.

There will certainly be times when I use the death attack during an ongoing battle as well, but that is less of an issue for me. Ultimately this character will need to fill the role of scout/trapfinder for the party as well as contributing by occasionally eliminating a strategic target, but otherwise will not be expected to contribute much in battles.