Antimagic field and adding templates to vermin.

[realbombchu]

Ugh, I'm not good at this. I'm trying to speed things up at my table by writing out the stats for the monsters my sorcerer is likely to summon. I'm doing my best, but of course templates are involved, and I'm bad at adding them, even after all these years, so I have some questions.

If I apply the celestial (or any intelligence-increasing template) to a vermin, what happens concerning their immunities that are based on their mindless state? Also, I find the line about not recalculating skills and feats when adding a template confusing. Their intelligence increased, so do they get skills and feats or not?

Also, I'm looking at the antimagic field spell. I don't know this one very well. Does the antimagic field surround you or include you? Hope that's not one of those ongoing debates.

[Zilzmaer]

An antimagic field includes the caster.

When thinking about the intelligence increase, keep in mind that vermin don't have Int 0. They have Int -. However, in 3.5, the immunities aren't based on being mindless, they're based on being vermin. I couldn't say if that's still the case in Pathfinder.

[realbombchu]

An antimagic field includes the caster.

When thinking about the intelligence increase, keep in mind that vermin don't have Int 0. They have Int -. However, in 3.5, the immunities aren't based on being mindless, they're based on being vermin. I couldn't say if that's still the case in Pathfinder.

Ok, bummer about antimagic field. I mean, I know there are ways around that. The extraordinary spell aim feat from Complete Adventurer comes to mind. Still, bummer, that makes my plan a little harder.

So, does "Int --" mean that they do not receive an increase to Int 3 when you apply the celestial or fiendish template?

If the immunity is based on their type, and they become a magical beast (augmented vermin, extraplanar), does that remove the immunities then, regardless of intelligence?

Oh, and I'm using v.3.5. Sorry, I should've said that sooner. Thanks for your help so far. I'm just confused is all.

[Urpriest]

If this is indeed for 3.5 and not Pathfinder, I recommend reading my Monster Handbook.

In terms of recalculating skills and feats, that line usually refers to recalculations due to type. It's the difference between having and not having the augmented subtype, roughly.

A celestial vermin will indeed have Int 3. Being a Magical Beast now, it by default has Magical Beast traits, not Vermin ones, so it loses the immunities that come from being a vermin.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Nonabilities don't get increased by anything, including templates. A nonability means there's nowhere for that bonus to go, it just doesn't get added.


Antimagic Field includes the caster. There are specific tricks to avoid this, like Mastery of Shaping from Archmage or the Extraordinary Spell Aim feat in CA, but that's not as strong as some may think. Per the Rules Compendium, AMF doesn't block Line of Effect for spells or other magical effects, so if you're standing in a square that's not included in the AMF and an opponent casts from a square that's not included in the AMF, the AMF may as well not exist.

[Urpriest]

Nonabilities don't get increased by anything, including templates. A nonability means there's nowhere for that bonus to go, it just doesn't get added.


Just to point out, while this is completely true, Celestial and Fiendish do not give a bonus to Intelligence, they reset it to 3. So a Celestial/Fiendish Vermin has Int 3, but any other template will not raise Int.

[realbombchu]

Nonabilities don't get increased by anything, including templates. A nonability means there's nowhere for that bonus to go, it just doesn't get added.

Yeah, I would normally agree, but the template's intelligence increase isn't a bonus, per se, but rather the minimum intelligence of that kind of creature. At least, that's how I read it. I've been wrong before.

Edit: Oops, um, yeah, what we said.

[blazinghand]

Nonabilities don't get increased by anything, including templates. A nonability means there's nowhere for that bonus to go, it just doesn't get added.


This isn't how the Celestial Template works.

From the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm)

Same as the base creature, but Intelligence is at least 3.

In any case, Ur-Priest is correct. "Animals or vermin with this template become magical beasts" according to the SRD, so use Magical Beast traits rather than vermin traits.

EDIT: ah, it would appear I have been double swordsaged

[realbombchu]

Cool, I'm going to check out that guide, then. Thanks Urpriest and everyone. I look forward to all this making sense.

[realbombchu]

Per the Rules Compendium, AMF doesn't block Line of Effect for spells or other magical effects, so if you're standing in a square that's not included in the AMF and an opponent casts from a square that's not included in the AMF, the AMF may as well not exist.

Going back to this, for a second, yeah, I think you're right, but if I was standing in an antimagic field, and I was unaffected, all of my magic (item or otherwise) would continue to function, right?

So if a fighter charges into the field with a magic greatsword and tried to attack my character, all of his magic, including enhancements to the sword, would cease functioning, I think.

He could still harm my character, because he still has a sword, but it wouldn't resume its +5 unholy enhancement just because he swung it into my (unaffected) square to strike my character, right?

[Jack_Simth]

Going back to this, for a second, yeah, I think you're right, but if I was standing in an antimagic field, and I was unaffected, all of my magic (item or otherwise) would continue to function, right?

So if a fighter charges into the field with a magic greatsword and tried to attack my character, all of his magic, including enhancements to the sword, would cease functioning, I think.

He could still harm my character, because he still has a sword, but it wouldn't resume its +5 unholy enhancement just because he swung it into my (unaffected) square to strike my character, right?

Using Extraordinary Spell Aim, or the Archmage Ability, perchance?

The closest you'll get to a pure RAW answer is at the end of the Antimagic Field spell:
Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.

So if the square you're in is unaffected, then potentially the sword becomes +5 Unholy again as it's hitting you... but he's still minus his Belt of Giant Strength.

[realbombchu]

I just looked up extraordianry spell aim in Complete Adventurer. Here's a thought. It says that you make one creature unaffected, not his or her current square. So, my character wouldn't be in an unaffected bubble of magic, he would just not be affected, including belongings, unless this was changed since the book was published.

I guess my point is that the sword in question would not reactivate then. At least, I don't think so. Check the source if you can, but I think I might be on to something.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field."

"Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you"

The only time this would apply is if a creature's space is greater than the AMF's area. Otherwise, you default to the general rule on area spells: any creature who is even partially within the area of a spell is just as affected by it as a creature who is completely within the area. The sword would remain suppressed by the AMF as long as the space the wielder occupies is within the area of the AMF, as it's one of his attended items which are just as affected as his person. Throw on Starmantle (BoED, spell or item) and weapons that strike your character will be automatically destroyed, even natural weapons.