I have no air and I must breathe

[Firechanter]

Scenario: some Undead BBEG has a hermetically sealed lair, maybe deep in a mountain or so. The only viable way in and out is by teleport.

Since he and all his minions are undead, there's no reason for him to keep the air breathable in this lair. On the contrary, he probably made sure that there is no oxygen left in there by burning a bunch of coal.

Now we have a bunch of (highlevel) heroes on his trail. They find out how to get in there, but they may not know in advance that they won't be able to breathe there. Even if they do find out beforehand, they only have little time to prepare.

Okay, your turn:
What ways (spells, items) are there that will allow them to act normally there, i.e. explore, fight and cast spells without suffocating?

[legomaster00156]

If we can use Pathfinder, there's a 1st-level spell called Air Bubble. It's normally used for underwater campaigns, but it would work here.

[Arcanist]

I'm assuming they can cast Veil of Undeath (8th) so I'm going to offer Veil of Undeath as an option :smalltongue:

[Deathkeeper]

There's an item called Bottle of air...obvious use.
Winds of Vengeance is also an option. A very over-the-top option.

[Jack_Simth]

Bottle of Air, Necklace of Adaptation, Polymorph and it's ilk (into something that doesn't need to breathe), persist a Deep Breath spell (Spell compendium), combine Drown with Water Breathing.

There's... no real shortage of methods.

[Knaight]

Polymorph Any Object is 100 cubic feet per level, meaning 1500 cubic feet at level 15. So, cast PaO on a wall you don't need and turn it into metallic oxygen. Given that the vaporization point of oxygen isn't exactly high, you should start getting breathable air almost immediately.

Now for the math: 100 cubic feet of oxygen is 2,831,784 cubic centimeters, at about 22 cubic centimeters per mole of solid oxygen, producing about 12900000 moles. Once converted to gas, this is 304 million cubic meters of oxygen, which approximates 75 billion gallons.

That enough air?

[Firechanter]

There's... no real shortage of methods.

I didn't expect there to be. =) It's just that I had a multi-month break from D&D and I could use a couple of refreshers now. ;)

Of course there are some obvious solutions (like the Necklace or Bottle of Air), but in threads like these people also tend to post hilarious and creative solutions, like the PaO spell in Knaight's post, which are what makes it really interesting. ^^

@Knaight: how many catgirls did you just kill? Good job! =D

[Togo]

They could hold their breath. The rules allow you to do that for long enough to fight an single encounter.

Bags of holding and similar would contain air, as would mordenkeinan's magnificent mansion.

Arguably, items like eversmoking bottle and spells like fog produce atmospheric effects that are breathable.

Most games wouldn't allow characters to turn things into metallic oxygen, any more than they'd allow them to turn it to gunpowder. You might get quite an explosive cooling effect if you managed it though. Flooding the area with liquid oxygen might be quite fun too. Sure undead are immune to cold, but they might still shatter?

[docnessuno]

Polymorph Any Object is 100 cubic feet per level, meaning 1500 cubic feet at level 15. So, cast PaO on a wall you don't need and turn it into metallic oxygen. Given that the vaporization point of oxygen isn't exactly high, you should start getting breathable air almost immediately.

Now for the math: 100 cubic feet of oxygen is 2,831,784 cubic centimeters, at about 22 cubic centimeters per mole of solid oxygen, producing about 12900000 moles. Once converted to gas, this is 304 million cubic meters of oxygen, which approximates 75 billion gallons.

That enough air?

I like it, too bad you can't breath anymore, considering the dungeon (and probably the whole mountain) just exploded.

[Jack_Simth]

I like it, too bad you can't breath anymore, considering the dungeon (and probably the whole mountain) just exploded.
Pretty much. Oh yes, and oxygen of that purity is ridiculously corrosive, especially in that kind of quantity. You don't even have any bodies left to be Resurrected from.

[karkus]

A certain Ioun Stone (the yellow one?) makes it so that you don't have to breathe. Because it takes up no room on the body, you can halve the price by turning it into a necklace or something that does. It should then only be about 4,000 GPs.

[Eldonauran]

A certain Ioun Stone (the yellow one?) makes it so that you don't have to breathe. Because it takes up no room on the body, you can halve the price by turning it into a necklace or something that does. It should then only be about 4,000 GPs.

Iridescent Ioun stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#iounStones), actually.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Necklace of Adaptation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#necklaceofAdaptation)
This necklace is a heavy chain with a platinum medallion. The magic of the necklace wraps the wearer in a shell of fresh air, making him immune to all harmful vapors and gases (such as cloudkill and stinking cloud effects, as well as inhaled poisons) and allowing him to breathe, even underwater or in a vacuum.

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, alter self; Price 9,000 gp.

[The Random NPC]

Cast Gust of Wind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gustOfWind.htm) a lot. It creates a severe blast of wind, so with the right reading, it creates wind aka air.

[toapat]

That enough air?

rough guestimate: That would deal 7.2 Million D6 damage in an area with a radius of 93000 miles. You wipe out an entire plane's population using that

[Firechanter]

I suppose it's just smart to have your Amulet of Natural Armour enhanced by the Adaptation property, even if it costs some 13500GP.

As for Polymorph Any Object application: the idea as such is good, just the metallic oxygen bit is going over the top.
Depending on the size of the room the party lands in, the caster could
- polymorph the used air/smoke into fresh air;
- polymorph the used air into pure oxygen (which then mixes with the rest of the used air, hopefully creating a more breathable mix)
- or even polymorph some solid material into _liquid_ oxygen, which can boil off less aggressively than metallic oxygen. Note: a human needs roughly 0,9kg / 2 pounds of oxygen per day.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I suppose it's just smart to have your Amulet of Natural Armour enhanced by the Adaptation property, even if it costs some 13500GP.

MIC p234, you can add +natural armor, +con, etc. to an existing neck slot item for no more than a standalone item that gives the same bonus.

[Firechanter]

Oh, Natural Armour, too? That had escaped my mind... see, that's why I need a refresh course. ;)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's also the spell Water Breathing which does what you'd expect. With a duration of 2 hours/level and Target of Creatures Touched (note the plural) it's a wonderful group buff.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, but it requires you to actually have water to breathe, right? Having a party of highlevel heroes stumble around with water-filled goldfish glasses on their heads would appear a bit... silly.

[Arcanist]

Yeah, but it requires you to actually have water to breathe, right? Having a party of highlevel heroes stumble around with water-filled goldfish glasses on their heads would appear a bit... silly.

I gotta be honest as a DM, if my players did that I would just let them win at everything for the entire day... :smalltongue:

[The Bushranger]

Maybe something like this (http://wiki.terrariaonline.com/Fish_Bowl). :smallwink:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's also the 'Applied Engineering' solution.. i.e. blow great heaping holes in the mountain until the hermetic seal is breached. Disintegrate is good for this.

Minecraft has taught me this: No matter where I need to go, as long as I have a method of removing obstacles, I can get there. And there's a surplus of tools which remove obstacles in D&D. They're called Mattock of the Titans, Horns of Blasting, and Sorcerers.

[Knaight]

I like it, too bad you can't breath anymore, considering the dungeon (and probably the whole mountain) just exploded.


Pretty much. Oh yes, and oxygen of that purity is ridiculously corrosive, especially in that kind of quantity. You don't even have any bodies left to be Resurrected from.

Granted, some amount of magic is also needed to prevent these issues. However, the rapid cooling in the area due to heat transfer into the oxygen might well be enough to prevent such energetic reactions*, and proper shaping of the area plus judicious use of other spells might well be enough to reduce the rate at which the oxygen evaporates.

This does introduce some new issues, starting with how rapid cooling in the area isn't necessarily a good thing for other areas, and containing the matter of putting a lot of gas in a volume that increases only marginally, with a significant pressure increase. The obvious solution here is just to hold back and not polymorph nearly that much oxygen, but what's the fun in that?

Plus, if the explosion ruling is used, then there's an effective way to end the BBEG for the low low price of 25,000 gp of diamond dust.


As for Polymorph Any Object application: the idea as such is good, just the metallic oxygen bit is going over the top.
I'm not even going to try to deny this.


*If anyone has a torch, all bets are off.

[Ubercaledor]

Granted, some amount of magic is also needed to prevent these issues. However, the rapid cooling in the area due to heat transfer into the oxygen might well be enough to prevent such energetic reactions*, and proper shaping of the area plus judicious use of other spells might well be enough to reduce the rate at which the oxygen evaporates.

This does introduce some new issues, starting with how rapid cooling in the area isn't necessarily a good thing for other areas, and containing the matter of putting a lot of gas in a volume that increases only marginally, with a significant pressure increase. The obvious solution here is just to hold back and not poly-morph nearly that much oxygen, but what's the fun in that?

Plus, if the explosion ruling is used, then there's an effective way to end the BBEG for the low low price of 25,000 gp of diamond dust.


I'm not even going to try to deny this.


*If anyone has a torch, all bets are off.

Even without ignition/explosion, you've just suddenly created a billion litres of gas in an enclosed space (you said totally sealed right?) So your options would be:

a) pressure builds up to the point that everything is crushed
b) even if things survive, the V=k/p, Volume constant, k=pV, as pressure goes up so does temperature, to the point that the whole thing becomes plasma and boils everything to death.
c)The seals burst open, instantly dropping the pressure, oxygen precipitates in blood and you all die of air embolism.

Maybe just convert a small (grain-sized) amount?

[Slipperychicken]

Polymorph Any Object is 100 cubic feet per level, meaning 1500 cubic feet at level 15. So, cast PaO on a wall you don't need and turn it into metallic oxygen. Given that the vaporization point of oxygen isn't exactly high, you should start getting breathable air almost immediately.

Now for the math: 100 cubic feet of oxygen is 2,831,784 cubic centimeters, at about 22 cubic centimeters per mole of solid oxygen, producing about 12900000 moles. Once converted to gas, this is 304 million cubic meters of oxygen, which approximates 75 billion gallons.

That enough air?

Isn't pure oxygen unhealthy to breathe? Probably want some nitrogen and stuff in there so it's more like the air we're used to.

[The Bushranger]

No, 100% oxygen is perfectly healthy to breathe - it was used in early spacecraft. It can be conducive to causing the bends though, IIRC.

[Forrestfire]

There's also the 'Applied Engineering' solution.. i.e. blow great heaping holes in the mountain until the hermetic seal is breached. Disintegrate is good for this.

Minecraft has taught me this: No matter where I need to go, as long as I have a method of removing obstacles, I can get there. And there's a surplus of tools which remove obstacles in D&D. They're called Mattock of the Titans, Horns of Blasting, and Sorcerers.

Depending on the size of the hole, you may end up getting a situation like this (http://what-if.xkcd.com/6/).

[Agent 451]

No, 100% oxygen is perfectly healthy to breathe - it was used in early spacecraft.

Some of which turned into towering infernos... Not to mention that, like over consumption of water, breathing extremely elevated levels of oxygen can be toxic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity).

[Firechanter]

No, 100% oxygen is perfectly healthy to breathe - it was used in early spacecraft. It can be conducive to causing the bends though, IIRC.

That depends solely on partial oxygen pressure. Those early spacecraft worked with about 0.3 atmospheres of pure oxygen, which means there was about 50% more oxygen per volume as on sea level. So of course there are some tolerances. But more than about 0.6 atm of pure oxygen would be unsafe.

OTOH, if you're just going to blow the entire place up by means of PAO, you might just settle with transforming stuff to Fluorine, which is even more aggressive than oxygen.

However, one problem with PAO is that it says nothing about changing pressure or temperature. In fact it would be more sensible to assume that the product must be attuned to the current environmental conditions. Also, it might be argued that things like pure chemicals in weird forms (such as liquid or metallic oxygen) are instrinsically valuable and thus outside the ability of PAO to create.

[Killer Angel]

A certain Ioun Stone (the yellow one?) makes it so that you don't have to breathe. Because it takes up no room on the body, you can halve the price by turning it into a necklace or something that does. It should then only be about 4,000 GPs.

I don't need to waste my precious neck slot for this. Let the stone fly around my head...

[The Bushranger]

Heck, if we're going to PAO all the way, just change it into U-235 and watch the boom from a safe distance...

[Firechanter]

Heck, if we're going to PAO all the way, just change it into U-235 and watch the boom from a safe distance...

In a world where they know what U-235 _is_, it is worth more than a million $ per pound, so PAO can never create it.

[kitcik]

I gotta be honest as a DM, if my players did that I would just let them win at everything for the entire day... :smalltongue:

Just did it. Went into a location with no breathable air. Drank my potion of Water Breathing and used my waterskin as a gas mask. DM loved it.

[Kansaschaser]

I think the problem is going to be the characters figuring out that there is no oxygen in the atmosphere. Do people in your universe even know what oxygen is and that it's needed for breathing? Most people in that time would just assume "air is air".

Here is what I see in my head.

1. Characters teleport in.
2. Characters lungs start to burn and they feel like they are choaking.
3. Druid/Priest tries to cast a spell to neutralize poison (since they assume it's an airborn poison).
4. The spell has no effect. Most characters at this point are starting to be affected by the "Drowning Rule".

I think most parties that need oxygen would be killed by this "trap".

On the other hand, if characters in your world know what oxygen is and that it's needed for breathing and burning fire, then they might have a chance.

1. Chracters teleport in.
2. Any character carrying a torch or lantern sees the flames snuff out almost immediatly after teleport and are given an Intelligence check to realize there is no oxygen.
3. With a successful intelligence check, the Rogue explains that there is no oxygen and everyone will die in short order.
4. Rogue then plunges his head into his own bag of holding (since there is about 20 minutes of breathable air in there.)
5. Other characters take care of their need for oxygen or the person that teleported them in will then teleport everyone back out.

[Axier]

Everyone take a 1 level dip in alchemist, "Internal Alchemist"

Everyon hold their breath for hours equal to their constitution score.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Relying on a hermetic seal is overly complicated and unnecessary, just have the mountain its built into be volcanic and you can justify and endless supply of toxic fumes venting into the complex.

Or you could just make it extraplanar and put it on the negative energy plane.


Depending on the size of the hole, you may end up getting a situation like this (http://what-if.xkcd.com/6/).That take care of the bad guy fairly efficently. That aside we aren't dealing with a vacuum, the lair is sealed but it just be filled with toxic fumes and little oxygen. And if it was a vacuum all the liches spells would need to be silent spells.
I think the problem is going to be the characters figuring out that there is no oxygen in the atmosphere. Do people in your universe even know what oxygen is and that it's needed for breathing? Most people in that time would just assume "air is air".A multitude of spells are designed to allow people to breath in different enviroments be it underwater, in toxic clouds or in a vacuum. Adventures regularly go into underground dungeons and dwarves make underground their primary lifestyle. So people must have a concept more accurate then air is air.

Additionally in real life miners took Canaries underground because the birds were much more sensitve to toxic gases then humans and would kill the bird before affecting the miners.

[Slipperychicken]

Savage Species has these air-mask things that let you breathe for like an hour.

Everyone could just, you know, hold their breath for the <1 round it takes to teleport back out. Not such a big deal. If you impose a 20% failure chance for Verbal spells, it might be kind of stressful.

Hermetically sealing the place is kind of extreme. Wouldn't the BBEG still need to get supplies into his lair, and waste products out? I mean things like desks, paper, writing utensils, weapons, armor, cleaning supplies, first aid, ink, lantern oil/candles, servants/employees, components (both crafting and spell components), fire-extinguishment, replacement locks/doors/hinges, and so on. And is the BBEG personally teleporting all the garbage out with him, too?

Personally teleporting all that stuff in constitutes a massive waste of resources, including the BBEG/hedge-Wizard's time and spell slots.

[Firechanter]

@Kansaschaser
I disagree; people don't need to know what oxygen actually is to realize that the air is "bad" or "foul" or "burnt up" or whatever. Glass lanterns and suchlike were built long before 1771, and these had to be built so as to allow fresh air to be sucked in to feed the flame.

So, in the worst case, they'd teleport in, notice they can't breathe, and figure out they need to get outta there with all speed. Or they'd immediately proceed to enact their carefully prepared contingency plan, which might involve any of the aforementioned spells or items.

edit:
don't get too hung up on the "hermetic seal", it's not important. I just wanted to clarify you can't just open the front door or next best window to solve the situation.

[Axier]

Auran Mask, I think it is in the planar handbook.

Also, bottles of air are fairly affordable. Especially if you have a hyper gimp bargan basement artificer on your team.

Multipliers on money are multiplicitive!

[mattie_p]

Bonus points if the BBEG has set up Dimensional Lock traps, triggered on teleporting in.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Depending on the size of the hole, you may end up getting a situation like this (http://what-if.xkcd.com/6/).

Even better, saves me the trouble of having to go in and squish him, now to excavate the treasure room and call it a day!

[AnnShadow]

OK ... Too many things wrong with this.

1) An atmosphere with more than 21.5% Oxygen is an Oxygen-Rich environment. Above 30% and the friction from normal activities such as walking in cloth (ie normal) clothing can/will cause a spontaneous explosion.
2) For Most people (some cannot tolerate breathing pure gaseous oxygen) it is safe to breath oxygen ABOVE 60' of water (2 Atmospheres [3 atmospheres counting the surface pressure]) Below 60' and you run into the partial pressure that he was referencing or more likely get O2 Toxicity.

Above/less than 1 atmosphere it is safe to breath because, the partial pressure of O2 is not an issue.

So, if you did produce that much oxygen in a area and drew a sword - or even took a step in armor or moved your head (Friction of your hair)

KA-Bluey!

[Gildedragon]

Another possible solution is Prestidigitation or somesuch. An effect similar to create water, but just air. Cantrip level power but no cantrip covers it.
Alternatively: the Creation spells.
Also PaO just turn the stone to non-metallic oxygen. You get less oxy but no explosion.

[JaronK]

As a note, with a high damage melee hitter who's got adamantium weapons or stone dragon maneuvers, there's ALWAYS a window to open. It's called a wall, and you can open it.

JaronK

[Amidus Drexel]

OTOH, if you're just going to blow the entire place up by means of PAO, you might just settle with transforming stuff to Fluorine, which is even more aggressive than oxygen.


Hey, if we're going for things that are volatile in water, PAO it into Francium. :smallamused:

[docnessuno]

https://forums.playfire.com/_proxy/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbattlenations.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F05%2Fthread-necromancy.png&hmac=b1e5422a59ec7651342fd46da255ffa1u

Check dates before posting guys.

[TuggyNE]

OK ... Too many things wrong with this.

1) An atmosphere with more than 21.5% Oxygen is an Oxygen-Rich environment. Above 30% and the friction from normal activities such as walking in cloth (ie normal) clothing can/will cause a spontaneous explosion.

Um. First, you're referring to percentages, not partial pressure, which is going to be wrong. (5 torr of 100% oxygen will not spontaneously explode terribly well.) Secondly, while high concentrations of oxygen are indeed dangerous, they aren't anywhere near that dangerous: Apollo 1 caught on fire in a 100% oxygen atmosphere only because there was a fair amount of extremely flammable attachment cloth exposed and, if memory serves, a hot bare wire right nearby. Notably, it did not explode, nor did it ignite merely upon the astronauts moving around inside; also, similar arrangements (minus the flammable materials) had been used safely in the past. (Subsequent Apollos, for obvious reasons, used lower partial pressures of oxygen as well as eliminating the flammable cloth and checking for exposed wires.)

[van luke]

There is a spell calles deep breath . if you get a magic item made its a lvl 1 spell witch would cost 2000 gp to make too work continues

[Quertus]

Hermetically sealing the place is kind of extreme. Wouldn't the BBEG still need to get supplies into his lair, and waste products out? I mean things like desks, paper, writing utensils, weapons, armor, cleaning supplies, first aid, ink, lantern oil/candles, servants/employees, components (both crafting and spell components), fire-extinguishment, replacement locks/doors/hinges, and so on. And is the BBEG personally teleporting all the garbage out with him, too?

Personally teleporting all that stuff in constitutes a massive waste of resources, including the BBEG/hedge-Wizard's time and spell slots.

Did you just suggest that the BBEG who removed all the oxygen from the air... should be worried about his supplies of lantern oil, candles, and fire extinguishers?

[Necroticplague]

Step 1: Flood dungeon. Possibly using a whole bunch Decanters of Endless Water.
step 2: Water breathing spell, or turning into something aquatic.

[Aleolus]

Ok, majorly necrothreading, but I have an idea.

1) Teleport one person into a remote region that the resident undead are unlikely to visit/approach very closely, using any reasonable breathing method.

2) Spread around a bunch of soil.

3) Plant a bunch of seeds for plants with little to no scents

4) Cast a Permanenced Daylight in the area

5) Set an item enchanted with Create Water so it keeps the soil moist at all times, without flooding the area

6) Teleport out and wait

[Half-Wizard]

Polymorph Any Object is 100 cubic feet per level, meaning 1500 cubic feet at level 15. So, cast PaO on a wall you don't need and turn it into metallic oxygen. Given that the vaporization point of oxygen isn't exactly high, you should start getting breathable air almost immediately.

Now for the math: 100 cubic feet of oxygen is 2,831,784 cubic centimeters, at about 22 cubic centimeters per mole of solid oxygen, producing about 12900000 moles. Once converted to gas, this is 304 million cubic meters of oxygen, which approximates 75 billion gallons.

That enough air?

You got your math backwards. If it's 22 cubic centimeters per mole of metallic oxygen, then you've got 128,717 moles of oxygen. This would be about 4,530 imperial tons of oxygen, and only about 817 million gallons. Even so, you're still dead. Metallic oxygen at STP will violently expand at a pressure of at least 96 GPa. This is twice as powerful as the most powerful explosive in mass production (CL-20). Since Polymorph any Object uses close range and you're 15th level, you'd be standing within 60 feet of this stuff. Essentially, you're standing within 60 feet of an actively detonating tactical nuclear warhead with a yield in excess of 4.53 kilotons. Hope you've got a contingent teleport.

By the way, thanks for creating antimagic sickness. Now one in one hundred million atoms of oxygen will turn into rock in an antimagic field. This includes atoms already inside your body, even those making up your DNA. People who walk into and out of antimagic fields on a regular basis will still be getting cancer thousands of years from now thanks to you.

[SangoProduction]

Polymorph Any Object is 100 cubic feet per level, meaning 1500 cubic feet at level 15. So, cast PaO on a wall you don't need and turn it into metallic oxygen. Given that the vaporization point of oxygen isn't exactly high, you should start getting breathable air almost immediately.

Now for the math: 100 cubic feet of oxygen is 2,831,784 cubic centimeters, at about 22 cubic centimeters per mole of solid oxygen, producing about 12900000 moles. Once converted to gas, this is 304 million cubic meters of oxygen, which approximates 75 billion gallons.

That enough air?

Likely so much more than enough that you die of oxygen poisoning, even assuming structural stability and like...fire...and pressure... not being an issue...

[Jack_Simth]

Likely so much more than enough that you die of oxygen poisoning, even assuming structural stability and like...fire...and pressure... not being an issue...

Well, FIRE wouldn't be an issue, at least not at first, due to the ideal gas law (PV=nRT) - that level of decompression would reduce the temperature to minus a few hundred... which... might also help in reducing the pressure wave to something below nuclear blastfront levels. Maybe.

[edwin1993]

amulet of adaptation dmg

[Alex12]

Cast Gust of Wind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gustOfWind.htm) a lot. It creates a severe blast of wind, so with the right reading, it creates wind aka air.

Only works if it's in a vacuum (which has other problems). If it's just non-oxygenated air (carbon dioxide or monoxide, nitrogen, dephlogistonated air, or even just poison gas) I'm not sure it'd work, since there's still air there for there to be wind, it's just not air you can breathe)

[The Random NPC]

Only works if it's in a vacuum (which has other problems). If it's just non-oxygenated air (carbon dioxide or monoxide, nitrogen, dephlogistonated air, or even just poison gas) I'm not sure it'd work, since there's still air there for there to be wind, it's just not air you can breathe)

That wasn't meant to be taken seriously; by the time I'd gotten to it there were many more likely methods.

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Thread Necromancy.