Non-Arcane Intelligence Class

[Bulix]

Hi,
This may be hard to make or find.

I want a 3.5 character that is:

a-Level 4 Start (with starting gold)
b-Core Race + Subraces
c-Any book Class (Except if there is another that accomplishes all other perquisites)
d-Int. Based
e-No Spells (Arcane or Divine)
f-Usually outsmarts all
g-Fun (Not necessarily powerful)

Anything? :smallconfused:

Thanks. :smallbiggrin:

[CthulhuEatYou]

Factotum should do it (Dungeonscape)

[nedz]

The smart characters all cast spells.

But you could try rogue since Int boosts skill points.

[Randomguy]

Swashbucklers and Warblades both use Int as a secondary ability. I'm not sure if I would call them Int based though.

[Water_Bear]

Option A: Primordial Half-Giant Erudite 4*

Half-Giant is from Expanded Psionics Handbook, and thus Core, while the Primordial Giant template from Secrets of Xen'drik might be an issue.
Erudite, from Complete Psionics, is a Manifesting (not technically spellcasting) class which is the Wizard to the Psion's Sorcerer. With Spell-to-Power it is Tier 0, but as written it is near the bottom of Tier 1.
You'll have a lot of fun playing it and is very unconventional. Power Points and prepared Manifesting means that this will be the most flexible character you ever play.
*LA buyoff at Level 3, or just eat the +1 and only take three levels of Erudite.

Option B: Human Factotum 4

Humans are just better at everything, that's pretty much a given.
Factotum is an Intelligence-based skill-monkey class from Dungeonscape with no casting, but is still a solid Tier 3 and remarkably good in a fight.
This character will play like a 1930's Pulp Hero; able to use their brains, their fists and a dash of luck to defeat any challenge while still feeling like the underdog. Add Chameleon levels after level 8 to really get that "Renaissance Man" feel.

[Jeff the Green]

Factotum (Dng) is Intelligence-based, but gets SLAs.
Warblade (ToB) has Intelligence as a secondary.
Swashbuckler (CW) gets Intelligence to damage (go Daring Outlaw).
Psion is Intelligence based, but uses psionics.
Psychic rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) uses Intelligence for its minor psionics.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The smart characters all cast spells.

I was thinking the exact same thing. If he's so smart, then why isn't he casting spells?


Factotum is the go-to for using your Int bonus for everything you do.

(Feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue)) Rogue with three levels of Swashbuckler could be a strong choice, especially if you pick up Invisible Blade later on. You could also take Carmendine Monk or Kung Fu Genius and wear a Monk's Belt to get your Int bonus to unarmored AC, which would stack with Invisible Blade's Int-to-AC bonus.

[_flint_]

Human artificer 4 should be fun. Won't nescessarily cast spells, you could tank just as easily

[Wise Green Bean]

Factotum and artificer are kinda iffy. Spell-like-abilities and "infusions"(with effect that look an AWFUL lot like spells) might get you the hairy eyeball.

As mentioned already, carmendine monk, swashbuckler(daring outlaw, if you actually want to be good), warblade.

[Diovid]

The Master base class from Dragonlance: War of the Lance might be what you're looking for.

Alternatively you could go for a trapper. For example something like:

Earth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#earthKobolds) Kobold (www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm) Kobold Paragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060127a) 2 or 3 / Rogue 3 / Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) 1* / Trapsmith 5 / Combat Trapsmith 5 / Exemplar 3 or 4
*For Motivate Intelligence

Take the 1st Kobold Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060106a&page=3) substitution level and the Rogue's Quick Fingers variant ability from Dungeonscape.

Trapsmith is from Dungeonscape, Combat Trapsmith is from Complete Scoundrel and Exemplar is from Complete Adventurer. Technically Trapsmith has some minor spellcasting, you could replace the Trapsmith levels with more Rogue levels or more Exemplar levels.

Some nice feats for this build are:
Apprentice (Craftsman) - DMG II
Extraordinary Trapsmith - RotD
Craft Expertise - Dragon Magazine #339
Guerilla Trapsmith - Dragon Magazine #342
Combat Tinkering - Dungeonscape
Trap Sensitivity - Dungeonscape
Trap Engineer - Dungeonscape
Trap Mastery - Dragon Magazine #347

[Axier]

Factotum can really be played without the SLAs if you want. In fact, I think you could try to replace them with ToB manuvers with a little bit of homebrew. That would be great, and of course, you could just use the base progression similarly, only being able to get up to 6th level manuvers and stances.

I think something like taking the base number of spells you can get from Arcane Dilitante, and then add a stance to it. You could then take feats to get the ones you want after testing them out!

If ToB isn't available, you could try to replace Arcane Dilitante with something like a couple of floating bonus feats (Similar to the Chameleon PrC), or extra skill points for ultimate skill-monkey fun time.

[Hikarizu]

Factotum/Iaijutsu master, with a skill working similarly to sneak attack you can do +9d6 dmg +CHA mod on every dice(or 2*9d6 with Iaijutsu Master 8) on flat-footed opponent. If that's the surprise round you get to do it again because you get INT and CHA to Initiative in addition to the normal DEX.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255763) I asked the playground for help. Take a look.

[Axier]

Factotum/Iaijutsu master, with a skill working similarly to sneak attack you can do +9d6 dmg +CHA mod on every dice(or 2*9d6 with Iaijutsu Master 8) on flat-footed opponent. If that's the surprise round you get to do it again because you get INT and CHA to Initiative in addition to the normal DEX.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255763) I asked the playground for help. Take a look.

Me likey...

BTW, you can pump a couple extra standard actions to do more of those double attacks with factotum. For three inspiration points you can do:
(4d10+[(STR*1.5)*4])+([#up to#9d6+CHA]*4), and then do the double strike on your really high initiative.

I would take maybe a dip in exemplar, so you could take-ten on Iaijutsu Focus checks.

[Hunter Noventa]

Factotum can really be played without the SLAs if you want. In fact, I think you could try to replace them with ToB manuvers with a little bit of homebrew. That would be great, and of course, you could just use the base progression similarly, only being able to get up to 6th level manuvers and stances.

I think something like taking the base number of spells you can get from Arcane Dilitante, and then add a stance to it. You could then take feats to get the ones you want after testing them out!

If ToB isn't available, you could try to replace Arcane Dilitante with something like a couple of floating bonus feats (Similar to the Chameleon PrC), or extra skill points for ultimate skill-monkey fun time.

Pretty much this. I think I still have a link to my homebrew factotum variants in my sig, one of which uses ToB to replace the spells. it's a very elegant solution.

[Hikarizu]

Me likey...

BTW, you can pump a couple extra standard actions to do more of those double attacks with factotum. For three inspiration points you can do:
(4d10+[(STR*1.5)*4])+([#up to#9d6+CHA]*4), and then do the double strike on your really high initiative.

I would take maybe a dip in exemplar, so you could take-ten on Iaijutsu Focus checks.
You get +CHA dmg on each one of the 1-9 die from iaijutsu strike. So with maxed Iaijutsu Focus it should be (1d10+STR*1.5+9d6+9*CHA)*(2+2+n*2)
1st "2" is from the surprise round, 2nd "2" is from when you win Initiative(which is DEX+CHA+INT+4(II)) and more "2's" for every 3 IP you spend for extra standard actions. And that's with just a standard katana.
Don't get me started with an enchanted one

[Zaq]

The Truenamer is INT-based, but I don't think I'd call it the best idea in your scenario.

Sorry. Contractual obligation, don'cha know.

[Axier]

You get +CHA dmg on each one of the 1-9 die from iaijutsu strike. So with maxed Iaijutsu Focus it should be (1d10+STR*1.5+9d6+9*CHA)*(2+2+n*2)
1st "2" is from the surprise round, 2nd "2" is from when you win Initiative(which is DEX+CHA+INT+4(II)) and more "2's" for every 3 IP you spend for extra standard actions. And that's with just a standard katana.
Don't get me started with an enchanted one

Yeah, I noticed the math was off on the charisma after I looked at the class in my books. Serious loads of damage, but the consistancy is only in the first few rounds. It is certianly a speed build, and might outpace some charger builds...

Iaijutsu Charger?

Speaking of enchantments, there is I think one enchantment that gives you a free flat-footed attack, either once on a target, or once a day.


The Truenamer is INT-based, but I don't think I'd call it the best idea in your scenario.

Sorry. Contractual obligation, don'cha know.

I love the dedication. Also, if there is a lack of (read: non existance) of other magic its not a HORRIBLE choice...

Just a lackluster one.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yeah, I noticed the math was off on the charisma after I looked at the class in my books. Serious loads of damage, but the consistancy is only in the first few rounds. It is certianly a speed build, and might outpace some charger builds...

Iaijutsu Charger?

Speaking of enchantments, there is I think one enchantment that gives you a free flat-footed attack, either once on a target, or once a day.



I love the dedication. Also, if there is a lack of (read: non existance) of other magic its not a HORRIBLE choice...

Just a lackluster one.

Blurstike weapon +2 IIRC equivalent and makes your enemy flattfooted againdt the first attack you make on your round. Useful for rogues and Iajutsu user's alike.

[Mystral]

You could go rogue and play MacGuyver, crafting traps and gadgets, knowing everything you need to know, etc.. It is really dependent on your creativity as a player.

[Gavinfoxx]

You could go rogue and play MacGuyver, crafting traps and gadgets, knowing everything you need to know, etc.. It is really dependent on your creativity as a player.

Which is why you want a class that is better than Rogue at the skills thing, and intelligence thing. Like Factotum.

[nedz]

One I prepared earlier
Bit of an NPC this one, but could be amusing to RP


Professor (Geologist )
Lvl 15 Dwarf Expert

{table=head]||
Str|8|-1
Dex|10|0
Con|16|+3
Int|24|+7
Wis|12|+1
Cha|13|-2
[/table]

{table=head]Skilll|Ranks|Stat|Special|Total
Appraise|18|Int +7||25
Decipher Script|18|Int +7||25
Know (Arch/Eng)|18|Int +7||25
Know (Dungeoneering)|18|Int +7||25
Know (Geography)|18|Int +7||25
Know (Nature)|18|Int +7|Synergy +2|27
Profession ( Geologist)|18|Wis +1||19
Search|18|Int +7|+2 Secret door|25
Survival|18|Wis +1|+2 Underground|19
Spot|18|Wis +1||5
[/table]

Headband of Intellect +6

Easy to adapt to other concepts, though that's entirely academic.

[Mystral]

Which is why you want a class that is better than Rogue at the skills thing, and intelligence thing. Like Factotum.

Factotums have spells. He said that he specifically does not want spellcasting in his class. So the class Factotum is, great as it might be, not an option.

Of course you could homebrew them out for TOB maneuvers, as you suggested. But it's not known if the DM will allow that. (This would make the factotum really more of a swordsage/warblade with a few more tricks)

[Water_Bear]

What about Psychic Rogue? They're Intelligence-based and don't have spells; they are a manifesting class.

[Mystral]

If you really, really want to challenge yourself and your creativity, you could of course play an expert. Doesn't get more intelligent dependent then that, you would literally only have your wits to rely upon, both IG and OG.

[Draz74]

Factotums have spells. He said that he specifically does not want spellcasting in his class. So the class Factotum is, great as it might be, not an option.

We don't have enough information to be sure of that, for at least four reasons:

Homebrew, like you acknowledged
The RAW angle: technically, Factotums do not cast spells; they only have Spell-Like Abilities.
The Flavor angle: if he just doesn't want the flavor of spellcasting, it's not too hard for a Factotum to pick subtle SLAs and re-fluff them as nonspellcasting abilities.
The Desperation angle: at low levels, a Factotum who just completely ignores/bans his Arcane Dilettante feature might still be one of the better options that's been mentioned in this thread.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Warblade was mentioned, but has not been mentioned enough. :smallsmile:

Adds int to a ton of stuff, no casting at all (unless you're REALLY squeamish about non-casters doing cool stuff; Warblade's disciplines offer almost no supernatual abilities), and is hella fun to play.

[Axier]

Commenting on Warblade, you could combine Warblade and Factotum levels, ignore your Arcane Dilitante, and still be pretty solid.

For that matter, I think I saw yet another Link build that involved Fire Elf Factotum 3 Warblade 8 Eternal Blade (however many), that seemed pretty cool.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Entering Eternal blade late means you loose the awesomeness of Island in Time; I am not sure if I would do that.

[Axier]

Its just the flavor of the blade spirit being navi. Its not really optimal.

In gestalt its pretty fun. Factotum 20//Warblade 10/Eternal Blade 10
You get tons of Font of Inspiration to get extra standards, and take actions whenever you want. Combine with Time Stands Still, for full attacks on your full attacks.

[Twilightwyrm]

The smart characters all cast spells.

I resent this particular conceit. Yes, spell casting provides many options, that much is obvious, but that's not a matter of intelligence, it is a matter of chosen strategy for problem-solving. Yes, in theory spellcasters can make short work of most encounters. In practice this is rarely the case, whether because the spellcaster simply cannot be specifically prepared for the specific challenge to be overcome, and thus is forced to generalize to be effective, or because the spellcaster misapplies their magic in a tactically unsound manner, or even if they avoid these other two pitfalls, because now their enemies have contingencies to to take care of their spell casting (which do, in fact, exist). This can, of course, be said for most any other class, but this end up highlighting my point: that is is a choice of problem solving strategy, not something to be taken as given.

[Metahuman1]

Factotum/Iaijutsu master, with a skill working similarly to sneak attack you can do +9d6 dmg +CHA mod on every dice(or 2*9d6 with Iaijutsu Master 8) on flat-footed opponent. If that's the surprise round you get to do it again because you get INT and CHA to Initiative in addition to the normal DEX.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255763) I asked the playground for help. Take a look.

Two weapon fight with Gnome Quick Razors and double this for a couple of feats.

[Hikarizu]

It get's too cheesy for me to use the Gnomish Quickrazor. It's pretty solid build even when played "as intended", and I am fan of katana swords too.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I resent this particular conceit. Yes, spell casting provides many options, that much is obvious, but that's not a matter of intelligence, it is a matter of chosen strategy for problem-solving. Yes, in theory spellcasters can make short work of most encounters. In practice this is rarely the case, whether because the spellcaster simply cannot be specifically prepared for the specific challenge to be overcome, and thus is forced to generalize to be effective, or because the spellcaster misapplies their magic in a tactically unsound manner, or even if they avoid these other two pitfalls, because now their enemies have contingencies to to take care of their spell casting (which do, in fact, exist). This can, of course, be said for most any other class, but this end up highlighting my point: that is is a choice of problem solving strategy, not something to be taken as given.

There's also a fluff concern. Who's to say that intelligence is the only requirement for learning arcane magic IC? Perhaps there also needs to be a spark of magic in the blood of the would-be caster. Perhaps wizards are the same as sorcerers and are descended from magical creatures, but unlike sorcerers they have to tease the magic out of their blood through study, rather than have it boiling over so much that they start spontaneously creating magical effects.

True, that's not RAW. It is, however, a rather common trope attached to magic in various media.

[nedz]

I resent this particular conceit. Yes, spell casting provides many options, that much is obvious, but that's not a matter of intelligence, it is a matter of chosen strategy for problem-solving. Yes, in theory spellcasters can make short work of most encounters. In practice this is rarely the case, whether because the spellcaster simply cannot be specifically prepared for the specific challenge to be overcome, and thus is forced to generalize to be effective, or because the spellcaster misapplies their magic in a tactically unsound manner, or even if they avoid these other two pitfalls, because now their enemies have contingencies to to take care of their spell casting (which do, in fact, exist). This can, of course, be said for most any other class, but this end up highlighting my point: that is is a choice of problem solving strategy, not something to be taken as given.

In other words: Not all casters are smart, which doesn't contradict my original statement; which is more a reflection on the system.

[Kelb_Panthera]

In other words: Not all casters are smart, which doesn't contradict my original statement; which is more a reflection on the system.

It still doesn't necessarily follow that all smart characters should be wizards. The fluff concern of my last post not withstanding, a smart character has to find someone to teach him how actually read arcane formulae, or for that matter to read at all.

All PC classes, with noted exceptions, and several npc classes are literate by default, but they weren't born with that knowledge. Someone has to teach the character to read at some point, and its only natural that arcanists would also have to learn to read arcane notation from someone or somewhere.

With wizards being typically portrayed (at least around here) as being mostly absurdly paranoid misanthropes who'd never let a spell-book out of hand, much less out of sight; where's a smart, young, soon-to-be PC supposed to actually pick this stuff up?

Even if the above portrait is a bit skewed, DMG's demographics only give one wizard for roughly every thousand or so people, accounting for wizards of all levels. In a standard* campaign, wizards just aren't that common.


*I realize it's somewhat ludicrous to apply the words standard or normal to something as subjective as a D&D campaign world, but roll with it here.

[Gavinfoxx]

It still doesn't necessarily follow that all smart characters should be wizards.

Smart characters, if they have the chance, should be Archivists, Wizards, Psions, Warblades, Binders, Psychic Rogues, Duskblades, Shadowcasters, Factotums, Spellthiefs, Savants... generally (except for warblade), characters that are able to do some sort of magic. If they don't have the chance, I suppose some will have to settle for Expert or Rogue or Aristocrat or Noble or Master or Magewright or something.

[Water_Bear]

Smart characters, if they have the chance, should be Archivists, Wizards, Psions, Warblades, Binders, Psychic Rogues, Duskblades, Shadowcasters, Factotums, Spellthiefs, Savants... generally (except for warblade), characters that are able to do some sort of magic. If they don't have the chance, I suppose some will have to settle for Expert or Rogue or Aristocrat or Noble or Master or Magewright or something.

What is the "Master" class and where is it from? I don't recall ever seeing it, and Google is being particularly useless today.

But yeah, I agree with the sentiment; Intelligence (and to a lesser extent, Wisdom) is fundamentally about finding the shortest and safest path from A to B. In D&D 3.5, that path is found through a spell. Even mundane Skillmonkeys are going to spend a lot of time rolling UMD checks if they're playing effectively.

[Gavinfoxx]

Master - Dragonlance, War of the Lance
Savant - Dragon Compendium
Mlar - Polyhedron 159

[Kelb_Panthera]

Smart characters, if they have the chance, should be Archivists, Wizards, Psions, Warblades, Binders, Psychic Rogues, Duskblades, Shadowcasters, Factotums, Spellthiefs, Savants... generally (except for warblade), characters that are able to do some sort of magic. If they don't have the chance, I suppose some will have to settle for Expert or Rogue or Aristocrat or Noble or Master or Magewright or something.

That's exactly my point though. If they have the chance. That chance is far from guaranteed, and as a result a number of highly intelligent characters will be non-casters.

I think we're running into an issue where you're talking more about smart players deciding to play casters and I'm talking about smart characters not necessarily having the option.

[Gavinfoxx]

That's exactly my point though. If they have the chance. That chance is far from guaranteed, and as a result a number of highly intelligent characters will be non-casters.

I think we're running into an issue where you're talking more about smart players deciding to play casters and I'm talking about smart characters not necessarily having the option.

Well, I'm also talking about smart characters doing the logical things in world to get the sorts of training or life experiences that help them achieve their goals... cause, in any D&D setting, magic > *, and smart people will realize that.

[nedz]

It still doesn't necessarily follow that all smart characters should be wizards. The fluff concern of my last post not withstanding, a smart character has to find someone to teach him how actually read arcane formulae, or for that matter to read at all.

With wizards being typically portrayed (at least around here) as being mostly absurdly paranoid misanthropes who'd never let a spell-book out of hand, much less out of sight; where's a smart, young, soon-to-be PC supposed to actually pick this stuff up?

*I realize it's somewhat ludicrous to apply the words standard or normal to something as subjective as a D&D campaign world, but roll with it here.

Well this is setting / game dependant.


That's exactly my point though. If they have the chance. That chance is far from guaranteed, and as a result a number of highly intelligent characters will be non-casters.

I did give an example of an int based character based on the Expert class.


I think we're running into an issue where you're talking more about smart players deciding to play casters and I'm talking about smart characters not necessarily having the option.

Sure: I've seen Wizards played at Tier 5 level of flexibility. e.g. Always casting Magic Missile even if high level, and it wasn't lack of experience.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well, I'm also talking about smart characters doing the logical things in world to get the sorts of training or life experiences that help them achieve their goals... cause, in any D&D setting, magic > *, and smart people will realize that.

That assumes that they can find the necessary info, and that they have zero prejudices or misconceptions to hamper them in looking or even wanting to look for that information. Nevermind things like racial barriers, language barriers (common not withstanding), and actuall physical barriers standing between them and that information.

Players can decide when writing their background that a perfect storm of circumstance led their character to his PC class, but random chance is going to be more of a hindrance than it's usually given credit for when talking about an average character in the game world. Becoming a spellcaster is a metric crap-ton harder than just being smart enough if you actually think about everything that can get in the way.

[gorfnab]

Here's and Int/Dex based build I came up with awhile ago.

Human or Strongheart Halfling
1. Cobra Strike (UA) Deceptive Strike (PHBII) Monk - Camendine Monk, Combat Expertise, B: Dodge
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - B: Mobility
3. Swashbuckler - Deadly Defense, B: Weapon Finesse
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Combat Reflexes
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander
10. Thief Acrobat
11. Warblade
12. Warblade or Duelist - Ironheart Aura
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Stormgaurd Warrior
19. Duelist
20. Duelist

Levels 10 through 12 can be rearranged depending on your needs. The current setup gives you Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at these levels. However if you don't need Improved Evasion take one less level of Thief Acrobat and move the first level of Warblade to level 10. If you don't need Uncanny Dodge don't take the 2nd level of Warblade and instead go into Duelist a level early. If you don't need either abilities take Warblade at level 10 and enter Duelist at level 11.

If flaws are available pick up EWP: Broadblade Shortsword (pre-errata version if possible) or Versatile Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick (may need to rearrange later feats). If traits are available pick up Cautious.

The Monk and Swashbuckler levels (levels 1 through 5) can be switched around to taste. I personally like Swash 1/ Monk 2/ Swash 2