Another Melee/Caster build

[Cranthis]

Hey everyone, I need some help with a build. Basically, I can't decide between a few builds. Its basically Fighter 4/ Battle sorcerer 1/ Abjurant champion 5/ Spellsword 10. But I could also go Knight instead of fighter, and the Spellsword part is entirely open to something else. I'm just looking for tips and suggestions. Thanks everyone.

[RFLS]

Inb4 Sorcadin.

Now that that's out of the way, you might try looking up a good Sorcadin build. The problem you'll run into with your Fighter 4/Sorc 1 build is 2 things- 1) Fighters suck. They're not generally worth 4 levels, and 2) you lose 4 caster levels, on a class that's already behind on when it gets its spells.

You could also try porting in the Magus from Pathfinder; they're a pretty good gish-in-a-can.

If you're set on what you've got, I would recommend taking your sorcerer levels first and minimizing your fighter levels.

Anyway; basic Sorcadin builds (if I remember correctly) generally go some mix up of Paladin 2/Sorcerer X/Abjurant Champion 5/Other stuff.

Something I've always wanted to try has been Crusader 2/Sorcerer 3/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage. Could be fun.

Okay, that's a lie- what I REALLY want to to try is Crusader 1/Sorcerer 2/Crusader 1/Runesmith 1/JPM 6/Deepstone Sentinel 4/JPM 4. Breaks all the rules of gish-OP, but who cares? It's a dwarf earth/fire bender!

[Cranthis]

Haha very nice. The only reason I'm doing either fighter or knight, is because I am a terrible Paladin, and I can't stand their restrictions. All of that sounds good, but I'm trying to get into Abjchamp as early as I can. By using the Battle Sorcerer variant, I can cast in light armor at least. All in all, I want to take Abjchamp at 6th level.

[BowStreetRunner]

Knight isn't really at its best as a 5-level dip. Test of Mettle (4th) has Save DCs based off your class level and they can end up too low to be useful if you multiclass as a Knight. Vigilant Defender (5th) is also based off of class level, so can be far less effective in high-level play.

Personally, I like Spellsword less than Eldritch Knight. The latter prestige class gives full BAB and 9/10 spellcasting. Spellsword only gives 5/10 BAB, and I don't feel the class abilities are worth a loss of 4 more spellcaster levels.

[Cranthis]

I agree BowStreetRunner, which is why i would do fighter. And the I'm only doing the fighter because of the feats from 1-4.

Edit: Argent savant is also looking pretty good for this build.

[Gray Mage]

If I remember correctly, the usual sorcadin build is Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Something Else X. Abjurant Champion comes online a bit later, but you have a bigger caster level and can cast spells of a higher level. You can change Paladin with Fighter (loses the cha synergy) without changing the rest of the build or/and Sorcerer with Wizard at this point.

Light armor probably won't be that usefull since you can cast abjuration spells that increase armor bonus with an increased AC bonus (or even Greater or regular Mage Armor) and those don't stack with armor bonus. Consider going regular sorcerer.

If you want to go Fighter 4/ (Battle) Sorcerer 1/ Abjurant Champion anyway, it'd be best to not go for more then 1 level of Spellsword. You lose too many caster levels that way.

[Namfuak]

I agree with BowStreetRunner as well - usually Spellsword is just taken for 1 level to get the 10% ASF reduction, +1 BAB and +1 spellcaster level, since after that the class features are fairly weak in exchange for 5 spellcasting levels. Edlritch Knight, on the other hand, is somewhat boring in itself (although 4 spellcasting levels are not really boring), but much more effective.

What feat do you get from fighter 4 that is worth 2 spellcasting levels?

[Cranthis]

I'm not sure yet. I usually only optimized stealthy classes, so doing a combat caster is new (and fun) to me. The whole point of me asking though, Is to have 5 bab at level 5, so I can take Abjchamp at 6, if its even possible.

[Gray Mage]

I'm not sure yet. I usually only optimized stealthy classes, so doing a combat caster is new (and fun) to me. The whole point of me asking though, Is to have 5 bab at level 5, so I can take Abjchamp at 6, if its even possible.

Well, as a rule of thumb, you want to lose as few caster levels as possible and (ideally) manage to cast 9th level spells by level 20. Now, it is possible to take Abj. Champ. at level 6 (your build is rules legal), but you lose a lot of spellcasting for (IMO) little gain.

[gorfnab]

Duskblade (Skilled City Dweller (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) ACF to get Tumble as a class skill) 2/ Knight 4/ Suel Archanamach 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Spellsword or Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 7

[Cranthis]

Well, I intend it to be mostly a melee character, who uses protection spells to help him out. And possibly force spells if I go Argent savant after Abjchamp.

[Randomguy]

Don't use battle sorcerer: the benefits only apply to that single sorcerer level, but the drawbacks apply to your casting, which is carried over with your prestige classes. It's just not worth it.

Spellsword isn't really that great after the first level. Half casting PrC's in general sort of suck. Some other options: Eldritch knight, swiftblade, knight phantom and maybe sacred exorcist.

Sacred exorcist is the only one of those options that gives 8th level spells, with all the rest you're down to 7th and with swiftblade you're down to 6th.

[BowStreetRunner]

Entry into any sort of a Gish build is all about the Caster Level and Base Attack Bonus math - I will give an example here with just Fighter, Wizard, Abjurant Champion, Spellsword, and Eldritch Knight considered.

Wizard is used because it can achieve the spell level requirements earlier than sorcerer. For every level of wizard you gain one caster level, but the BAB advancement is only 1/2 your levels.

Fighter is used for this example because it easily fulfills the martial requirements for all three prestige classes. While you gain no caster levels it has full BAB advancement.

Abjurant Champion requires BAB+5, Combat Casting, 1st level arcane spells, one abjuration spell, and one martial weapon proficiency. It has full BAB and full caster progression over 5 levels. The casting requirement can be met with 1 level of Wizard. Since the 2nd level of Wizard nets you +1 BAB you might as well take it. You then need 4 levels of fighter to qualify after that. AC gets you to 11th level before you dip into Eldritch Knight for 9 levels. Wiz 2 / Ftr 4 / AC 5 / EK 9 = CL 15 and BAB +19.

Spellsword requires BAB+4, Knowledge (arcana) 6, proficiency with all simple and martial weapons and with light, medium and heavy armor, and 2nd level arcane spells, plus some fluff. While it has full BAB it only gets 1/2 caster progression. Luckily, the first level gives +1 BAB and +1 caster level, so Spellsword 1 makes a nice one-level dip priot to Abjurant Champion. Wizard can meet the spell requirement by 3rd level - since a 4th level in wizard grants +1 BAB there is no reason not to take it. That means Wizard 4 / Fighter 2 could enter SS, and next level you can qualify for AC. This will get you to 12th level and then you finish with Eldritch Knight 8. Wiz 4 / Ftr 2 / SS 1 / AC 5 / EK 8 = CL 17 and BAB +18.

Eldritch Knight requires proficiency with all martial weapons and 3rd level arcane spells. It has full BAB and 9/10 caster progression. Wizard can meet the spell requirement by 5th level, which means Wizard 5 / Fighter 1 could enter. This gets you to 16th level, but you will honestly want to take all 5 levels of AC as soon as you become eligible before returning to finish EK. Wiz 5 / Ftr 1 / EK 2 / AC 5 / EK +7 = CL 18, BAB +17

Note that any BAB of 16 or greater gets you your 4th iterative attack before you hit Epic levels. Wizards begin to cast 9th level spells at 17th level.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's quite easy to get 9th level spells and a +16 BAB by 20th level, but if you cut your spellcasting short early on it will never catch back up.

Paladin or Fighter 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8 gets 9th level spells and a +16 BAB at 20th. Fighter is actually useful if you get the Dungeoncrasher ACF from Dungeonscape and cast Melf's Unicorn Arrow in PH2. If you're not doing that then there's no reason to use Fighter over Paladin or one of its variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny), but you'll need a good alignment for Sacred Exorcist.

[Cranthis]

Again, its meant to be mainly a melee build, using spells for support. I'm ok with not having maximized caster level. And as a rule I personally do not play paladins.

[Hirax]

Martial wizard6 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard)/swiftblade9 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)/abjurant champ5 is a classic, it gets 9th level spells and +16 BAB. If you play with fractional BAB stacking, you can pick something else for level 6. You're held out of swiftblade until 6 because of its BAB requirement. An elf of some sort (racial weapon proficiencies), neraph (proficiences due to outsider type), or other race with automatic weapon proficiencies is recommended so you don't need to burn a feat to meat the weapon proficiency requirement.

[Fable Wright]

Again, its meant to be mainly a melee build, using spells for support. I'm ok with not having maximized caster level. And as a rule I personally do not play paladins.

Unfortunately, Spells happen to be better at making you a fighter than BAB does. If you don't want to go with a Sorcadin build, I recommend going with a Wizard one. Something like Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist or Eldritch Knight 8 is probably along the lines of what you're looking for, that doesn't sacrifice too much power for melee proficiency. You get Abjurant Champion 1 level later than your original build did, and in exchange you get two more caster levels, meaning an additional spell level. And an additional spell level makes a big difference.

Alternatively, just scrap Fighter altogether. Just go Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 20, possibly taking 5 levels of Abjurant Champion. You get what amounts to a d12 HD from Stalwart, a decent enough spell progression, and it's an extremely simple build to work with.

A third possibility is Duskblade, for the awesome factor, but that's more magic and melee combined than a melee character splashing a bit of magic on the side.

If you don't particularly care about maximizing your caster level, then we as the Playground probably can't help to much. The first of the Ten Commandments of Optimization is "Thou shalt not give up caster levels." If you're asking for optimization help... you're going to get people who are going to push the caster levels on you. They are, in the game, better than just about anything that isn't caster levels at doing anything you choose to do, if you know how to use them. If you're giving them up, what you get has to be worth it. In the case of PrCs, there's only one prestige class that really justifies giving up more than one Caster Level, and that's Swiftblade, which, while an awesome class, doesn't fit that well with the Knight dipping into magic thing.

[LTwerewolf]

It's not exactly what you're looking for, but straight cleric might be up your alley. Heavy armor, decent weapons, excellent buff spells (such as divine power). That already makes them better than fighters even without considering all the other awesome things they get access to.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Again, its meant to be mainly a melee build, using spells for support. I'm ok with not having maximized caster level. And as a rule I personally do not play paladins.

A Focused Specialist Wizard gets just as many spells per day as a Sorcerer. The only reason to use Sorcerer over Wizard is for Cha synergy, but you're not going to use any version of Paladin. That means you're better off with Wizard over Sorcerer by a long shot.

You can go Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) or Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#elfParagon) 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ Human or Elf Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5 as an extremely strong base. That loses only two points of BAB and two levels of spellcasting in twelve levels, and it gets 6d10+4d8+2d4 HP. Your final eight levels can afford to lose two more BAB and one more level of spellcasting and still make it to 9ths and +16 BAB by 20th, so pick those levels to make your character as strong as possible.

For example, finishing with Incantatrix 4/ Eldritch Knight 4 gets you tons of persistent buffs that make your character virtually invincible, and a god of melee damage as well. If you don't want something quite that powerful, Divine Oracle instead of Incantatrix gets you Evasion and Uncanny Dodge. You could instead use Paragnostic Apostle for the Spatial Awareness and Mind Over Matter tricks, and fill the rest of your levels with Eldritch Knight. You can even pick up four Master Specialist Transmuter followed by four Eldritch Knight, if your DM throws a lot of dispels at you and/or you can pick up the Ability Enhancer feat from Dragon Magic. Finishing off the build with eight Eldritch Knight levels will also work, but you won't have any class features so that's one of the weakest choices.

[only1doug]

I sort of like Duskblade for the BAB entry to Abjurant champion, 2 levels of Duskblade gives you free combat casting feat, you get a whole bunch of cantrips and a few 1st level spells to go with your martial weapon proficiencies.

Duskblade 2 / Wizard 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant champion 5 (advancing Wizard Casting)
is a nice start IMO or if you prefer a more Martial Gish you can go with
Duskblade 5 / wizard 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 (advancing Wizard Casting)
which is much weaker with Wizard spells but might suit your particular needs (especially if playing in a less optomised group).

[A_S]

A Focused Specialist Wizard gets just as many spells per day as a Sorcerer. The only reason to use Sorcerer over Wizard is for Cha synergy, but you're not going to use any version of Paladin. That means you're better off with Wizard over Sorcerer by a long shot.

You can go Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) or Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#elfParagon) 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ Human or Elf Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5 as an extremely strong base. That loses only two points of BAB and two levels of spellcasting in twelve levels, and it gets 6d10+4d8+2d4 HP. Your final eight levels can afford to lose two more BAB and one more level of spellcasting and still make it to 9ths and +16 BAB by 20th, so pick those levels to make your character as strong as possible.

If you like being sneaky, you can also take stealth skills with your Human Paragon levels, use the Sneak Attack Fighter ACF, and finish this build off with Unseen Seer 8, which lets you grab some cool non-wizard divination spells (I like Hunter's Eye, Listening Lorecall, and one of the "bypass sneak immunity" spells like Gravestrike).