So exactly how viable is an unarmed/touch attack psychic warrior? [Pathfinder]

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

So something occurred to me yesterday...

If you play a psychic warrior wearing armor, a shield, and using Improved Unarmed Strike, you can deliver all sorts of fun touch-range powers (hammer, dissipating touch). Just looking over it and comparing it to the monk I see these pros and cons.

Pros:

Able to cast as a standard action, move, and deliver an unarmed spell all in the same round.
Able to grapple anything Large-sized or smaller and dish out damage reliably with hammer. Excellent mage-killing ability. (Requires Improved Grapple.)
Able to alternate between touch attacks and delivering via unarmed strikes, depending on the target's touch AC and full AC.
Able to dish out at least 1d6 damage per level each round. Psionic Fist allows even more. Hold the charge if you miss.
In melee you have the leftover move action to regain focus. (Requires Psionic Meditation.)
Good AC from the shield and light/medium armor. Also able to spend more money on armor. Spiked shield makes a good backup weapon.
Can use expansion, animal affinity, and minor metamorphosis on self for buffs and utility. (The last one requires Expanded Knowledge).
Can stack offensive precognition and metaphysical claw on your unarmed strike for a very high to-hit bonus without being dependent on magic weapons.
Can duplicate many feats and other abilities with powers (prowess, hustle, evade burst). This also makes you a great support for the party rogue.
Can overcome damage reduction with psionic powers.
Take Belier's Bite for bleed damage and Hamatulatsu for other fun effects.


Cons:

Reliant on Power Attack and Strength for damage without spending power points.
Easy to run out of power points.
Low base damage and reliant on power points to make up for not having a weapon.
Reliant on psionic focus for flat bonuses from psychic warrior path.
Base damage can't overcome damage reduction.
Hard to use any power besides hammer reliably in melee.
Only one attack per round until high levels.


Is there anything severely wrong with my analysis of this build?

[eggs]

Have you calculated the number of these touch attacks you're going to be able to afford per day? The PP costs and pool are looking eerily reminiscent to the 3e Lurk, which is absolutely crippled by essentially being a blaster with a third of a blaster's PP pool.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Have you calculated the number of these touch attacks you're going to be able to afford per day? The PP costs and pool are looking eerily reminiscent to the 3e Lurk, which is absolutely crippled by essentially being a blaster with a third of a blaster's PP pool.

Oh, good point. At low levels it's 2 or 3. At level 20 it's at least 6. Not that impressive. However, Greater Psionic Fist (+4d6 damage) only costs focus.

I guess in that case the main focus of the build would be grappling for an extra 1d8 per attack (from hammer), plus the ability to meet any target on your own terms (melee attacks, touch attack, or grapple). Compared to King of Smack, this is looking rather poor.

[Psyren]

A better option with Hammer is to put it on a Psychic Rogue. 3.5 Hammer gets iteratives; combined with your sneak attack, you can dish out quite a bit of hurt. Use flanking/grease/marbles early on, then switch to a Ring of Blinking or similar toy later once you can afford that. Since Hammer doesn't benefit from strength and melee touch attacks can be finessed, this makes it ideal for a Dex-based attacker.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

A better option with Hammer is to put it on a Psychic Rogue. 3.5 Hammer gets iteratives; combined with your sneak attack, you can dish out quite a bit of hurt. Use flanking/grease/marbles early on, then switch to a Ring of Blinking or similar toy later once you can afford that. Since Hammer doesn't benefit from strength and melee touch attacks can be finessed, this makes it ideal for a Dex-based attacker.

That can be achieved with a 2,000 gp cattle prod of shocking grasp (1,800 gp if you only use it once per round). No need to put levels into psychic warrior at all.

[Psyren]

That can be achieved with a 2,000 gp cattle prod of shocking grasp (1,800 gp if you only use it once per round). No need to put levels into psychic warrior at all.

Who said anything about Psywar levels? Hidden Talent or EK will get Hammer onto your PR just fine.

Source on the cattle prod?

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Who said anything about Psywar levels? Hidden Talent or EK will get Hammer onto your PR just fine.

Source on the cattle prod?

2,000 gp is a continuous 1st-level spell at CL 1 according to the magic item guidelines. The balance of such a weapon having that market price in play is another issue entirely (I think it would be appropriate with a drawback like Exotic Weapon Proficiency, or "no +3 versus metal armor, in fact it only does half damage if the target isn't wearing metal armor", but this isn't such a big deal when you consider that a 1-level dip in Sorcerer grants any rogue the ability to do this with cantrips).

Anyways, looking back on this build I think a Wilder would work better (though with considerably less feats human might be a better pick).

[eggs]

You can get a good batch of PsyWar powers onto an Ardent - enough to stand up in melee with either Graft Weapon's weapon channeling or Tashalatora's unarmed channeling, plus many of the same buffs (probably using Hidden Talent to patch for one of the trickier useful powers like Expansion). There aren't a lot of great touch power disciplines, but Pain and Suffering has a couple good powers, and Destruction has some straightforward blasting that would qualify.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Looking a bit closer at it, I think that a wilder works better. The only thing you miss out on is medium armor proficiency, some bonus feats, and expansion. Wilder also gets surging bonuses, which are really nice for a melee character if you pick the warrior path.

[Psyren]

2,000 gp is a continuous 1st-level spell at CL 1 according to the magic item guidelines.

Yet on the other hand, your prod is almost strictly better than a shock dagger due to the touch attack, not to mention the bonus to hit against armored foes. So it should cost more than 2k according to those same guidelines.

In any event, this method requires your DM to be okay with custom items, which not all DMs are. My way works even with no items at all (a VoP Psyrogue for instance.)




Anyways, looking back on this build I think a Wilder would work better (though with considerably less feats human might be a better pick).

If you're using Wilder you may as well just be a regular blaster instead of staying in touch range to deal less damage. Or be a regular gish rather than trying to fight unarmed.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

If you're using Wilder you may as well just be a regular blaster instead of staying in touch range to deal less damage. Or be a regular gish rather than trying to fight unarmed.

Melee wilders in 3.5 have been considered viable (if less optimal than blasters). You also get good AC and free Toughness, so surviving melee shouldn't be an issue. The only problem is damage output, and I don't think that's a big problem if you're consistent through many encounters.

If you manage to land a punch with dissipating touch you'll take out at least half the hp of anything appropriate for your encounter level. A dissipating touch crit with duodimensional claw is a viable "fish for crits" build, and it comes many levels before Improved Critical (ray). The best part of trying to land unarmed strike touch powers is that you can hold the charge if you miss, which makes you more efficient than energy ray and not subject to saves like any of the AOE effects (you can take the AOE effects too if you want the option, but they'll cost you more power points). You also have the liberty of choosing between your target's AC and touch AC, which makes you more effective against agile, unarmored enemies without resorting to anything that requires a saving throw. The difference between d8 and d3 is (4.5 - 2) only 2.5 points of damage on average, and you can skip the Improved Unarmed Strike feat entirely if you get your hands on a monk's belt. I don't see how it's less offense-oriented than a cleric once you get expansion or metamorphosis up.

Unlike a melee cleric/druid build, you can also dish out those arcane-caliber AOE spells if you really really need to. But when the party doesn't need you to be blowing all of your power points this encounter you can still jump into combat and spend a few power points to land hammers for the entire fight. I know that the philosophy behind the wilder is to specialize, but I think this is an efficient and versatile build. It's especially noteworthy that this build can go through four encounters per day without exhausting itself, since you're not manifesting every round because you have to hold the charge on your power if you miss. And, if you really have to, you can break out the blaster powers for a boss fight.

This has nothing to do with optimization, but I would also try to get my GM to let the character do some non-core things (energy ray modified to be energy touch, a +2 gauntlet that lets you make your single-handed non-monk unarmed strikes as +2 weapons while still delivering the touch attacks, etc).

The real question is, "how does it work in practice?" I don't know, I haven't done it yet.

[Psyren]

Melee wilders in 3.5 have been considered viable (if less optimal than blasters). You also get good AC and free Toughness, so surviving melee shouldn't be an issue. The only problem is damage output, and I don't think that's a big problem if you're consistent through many encounters.

Oh, I know they're viable, I just consider it a square-peg-round-hole situation. Surviving melee isn't as much of a problem as casting in melee, even in 3.5 - the resources you pour into a Wilder to do that reliably and effectively could instead be used to make its ranged blasting beyond reproach, imo.

As for Hammer - The 3.5 version doesn't scale damage-wise, but as a sneak attack vector it has crucial benefits:

- Swift action, so you don't spend a round turning it on
- Doesn't provoke AoO
- Lasts long enough to full-attack
- Doesn't discharge on hit

Dissipating Touch does more damage, but doesn't have any of the other advantages above.

The PF version of Hammer is a standard action; however, you can charge it up for multiple full-attacks, and the damage per hit can now be scaled as well. So that's a great option to go with for a melee Wilder.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Surviving melee isn't as much of a problem as casting in melee...

Yeah, that's a pretty serious issue. It's mitigated by the ability to expend psionic focus, but focus is used for a lot of important things. As long as you start your round outside of anyone's reach you can cast and then move to attack all in the same round. Perhaps it's better to look at how a melee wilder can synergize with other characters. It might still be interesting if you're playing a Suli.

So I guess this is a pretty lackluster build at the end of things. It's just not completely optimized for any one role.

[Rubik]

A monk/psywar using Metamorphosis (see: psychoactive skin) can use Hammer to deal quite a lot of damage as touch attacks. Three unarmed strikes, twelve bite attacks, and two claws (via Claws of the Beast) can lead to 17d8 bludgeoning damage on touch attacks on a full attack action for a mere 1 pp.

You can also add in things like Dissolving Touch to improve your damage, and Dissolving Weapon for a buff that lasts for multiple days. Is there a weapon that allows you to augment a natural attack that works with bites, claws, and unarmed strikes?

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

A monk/psywar using Metamorphosis (see: psychoactive skin) can use Hammer to deal quite a lot of damage as touch attacks. Three unarmed strikes, twelve bite attacks, and two claws (via Claws of the Beast) can lead to 17d8 bludgeoning damage on touch attacks on a full attack action for a mere 1 pp.
Not in Pathfinder. It's treated like a normal touch attack, but with an augment for multiple charges.


You can also add in things like Dissolving Touch to improve your damage, and Dissolving Weapon for a buff that lasts for multiple days. Is there a weapon that allows you to augment a natural attack that works with bites, claws, and unarmed strikes?
Also a touch attack in Pathfinder.

[Metahuman1]

One could always fall back on the Incarnum Recharge Trick to not have to worry nearly as much about PP.

[Rubik]

Not in Pathfinder. It's treated like a normal touch attack, but with an augment for multiple charges.


Also a touch attack in Pathfinder.That sucks. Hammer was actually usable in 3.5, unlike 3.0 and Pathfinder.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

One could always fall back on the Incarnum Recharge Trick to not have to worry nearly as much about PP.
Bestow power was patched in Pathfinder. You have to use actual power points for all of its cost.


That sucks. Hammer was actually usable in 3.5, unlike 3.0 and Pathfinder.

The way it's set up now, hammer is a buff that lasts all combat (at least, it will last all combat at higher manifester levels). You can also cast it from 30' away, then walk up and deliver it in the same round, so that's nice.