Enjoying the game...

[Krazzman]

Hello again Playground,

I would like to seek advice on the grounds that my GF starts to not enjoy the Game at the moment. If you don't want to read all read the TL;DR at the end of my post.

When I DM she plays a Scout/Ranger mix and enjoys it. The round before she was a Cleric of Shauntea and enjoyed it. In our recent group she plays a Bardlock and she told me she feels a bit useless and would like to contribute better than only Inspiring Courage.

Her build is:
Starelf Warlock 1/Bard 1/Warlock 2 (we are currently 3rd level but we miss 240 Exp... so this is not that hard to get to)
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot.
Stats of note: Dex 14, Cha 20 (might be 19 and will be advanced to 20 or is it already).
Her plan is to get into eldritch Theurge as she thought that might be interesting but she is a bit bummed because she feels useless and would like to contribute better/more.

Her normal style of play is used to Barbarians, Ranger or Druids. Means either using Archery or smacking skulls in (sometimes with some spells too).

Our Party consists out of Human Warblade (with improved trip, me), Druid (pretty low OP, bad spell selection, hawk as AC [not using him] and going for stormcaster), Favoured Soul (not really sure what he aims for but is favoured by istishia). Now her options are a bit limited at the moment. Invocations she took are Dark Ones own luck and See the Unseen. She either Inspires competence or uses an EB for 1d6+1 (or in 240 exp 2d6+1).

At the moment she wants to give it another chance but I think this won't help and I think we (as in I help her build her characters) screwed up somewhere in our planning. She mentioned something about finding bards fun but getting tired of them pretty fast.

TL;DR:
Starelf Bardlock (Warlock 3/Bard 1) with Charisma 20 feels useless as a supporter due to being used to play Brutes/Druids/Archers.

I hope you can help me again as I'm running in circles finding a solution.

[Asheram]

To be completely frank, what else is there?
D&D isn't just about hack and slash so what other factors are in motion? What makes this campaign different than the others? Is she not having fun with the roleplaying aspect or is it just that she feels useless in combat?

[prufock]

What is it she specifically doesn't like about the character?

Snowflake Wardance and/or Slippers of Battledancing can help her bust some skulls, if that's what she wants. If she'd rather do ranged (which works better with her current feats) she can pick up a Bow of Songs or the Whirling Blade spell eventually. A level of Marshal can give her the Motivate Strength aura for trips (grab a whip and Improved Trip), disarms, bull rushes, sunders.

[Darius Kane]

Change the character to something she will enjoy.

[only1doug]

next level (if she takes more warlock) she'll be doing eldritch blasts for 2d6+1 vs flatfooted AC, would that feel more like contributing for her? reread OP, you covered this.

Would she be happier if she changed her invocations to Sickening or Frightful blast to add status modifiers to enemies?
Has she been blasting at all or just using Bard song for Inspire courage and not acting herself? you covered this too.

[Psyren]

Change the character to something she will enjoy.

This. Make her a sorceress instead, so she still gets the high Cha but has a lot more punch. You guys could use a primary arcanist anyway from the look of things.

[Krazzman]

This. Make her a sorceress instead, so she still gets the high Cha but has a lot more punch. You guys could use a primary arcanist anyway from the look of things.

Ah, there's a problem with that. She dislikes Sorcerers. She tried them out over a few one-shots with our old group and always had problems and started to dislike them because of that. She would rater play a barbarian with her stats now than playing a sorceress...:smalleek:

@Asheram:
She writes a "Book" about the Party. In Game she is our "Chronicler" / writes an epic about us.

From her point of view she said: "I don't like it that the only things I can do are: EB or Inspire Competence."
Inspire Competence was "downvoted" because the Favoured Soul aimed his Crossbow on her lute... (they were somehow in the mindset of! We have to sneak now and she sang (?) a song because she was bored... (we had no reason to sneak...).

[Darius Kane]

What does she not like about Sorcerers?
Maybe let her play a Paladin with Serenity and a Battle Dancer dip?

[only1doug]

From her point of view she said: "I don't like it that the only things I can do are: EB or Inspire Competence."
Inspire Competence was "downvoted" because the Favoured Soul aimed his Crossbow on her lute... (they were somehow in the mindset of! We have to sneak now and she sang (?) a song because she was bored... (we had no reason to sneak...).

So, would any of the other least invocations interest her? Baleful utterance, miasmic cloud, summon swarm? Is it the static nature of warlock invocations, with no adaptability?

I hate when people offer up their homebrew as the solution to every problem, so I'm only doing so reluctantly but here's my floating invocation feat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255369) which makes one least invocation changable on a daily basis.

[Rejakor]

Your group allow flaws?

Song of the Heart, Words of Creation, Mark of Valour, Inspirational Boost, all increase inspire courage bonus

Dragonfire Inspiration turns inspire courage from +1 hit/+1 damage to +1d6 elemental damage (or more damage if more bonus)

Song of the White Raven lets you start inspire courage (or dragonfire inspiration) as a swift action

Focused Performance allows you to double your inspire courage bonus for a single person

Crystal Echoblade is a sword from MiC that you could theoretically apply the effect of to any weapon you like, it adds half your bard level as sonic damage if you are using a bard song while wielding it

Slippers of Battledancing/Snowflake Wardance allow you to use your cha for hit and damage, with a one level dip in spirit lion totem barbarian or take the snow tiger berserker feat, you pounce with two weapons wearing Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (cha to damage) and then

You attack with 2 attacks with cha and str (or dex with feycraft weapons) to hit and your bardic music bonus, which should be somewhat equal to your level - then you do damage. You do your cha once for battledancing, you do your bardic music bonus in d6s for dragonfire inspiration, then you do your bardic music bonus for regular song, then you do your cha bonus in fire damage for gauntlets of heartfelt blows, then you do half your bard level for using an echoblade, then you do whatever the weapon damage is plus your strength or whatever (negligible).

And then you laugh at all the people who thought cha synergy wasn't strong.
\


EDIT: Alternatively, my advice for playing a warlock, is don't play a warlock at low levels.

Seriously.

Warlocks are great fun once you can do stuff with them, but you need Lesser Invocations to do stuff with them.

Like being able to Fly, or go Invisible.

Baleful Utterance, using it to Shatter enemy weapons, is kind of cute. As is Fog Cloud. Beguiling Influence etc.

But Walk Unseen, Black Wings, Chilling Tentacles...

Essentially the designers derped and made warlocks get the stuff that actually makes them a playable class around level 9.

Also, rogue sneak attack can be used on every attack in a full attack, even one with two weapon fighting and poisons and rapid shot and whatever else and it's not even considered strong. And it advances much faster than the 1/rnd Eldritch Blast.

Making Eldritch blast do 2d6/3 levels doesn't even make it worthwhile, but makes it a little bit more like a non-wasted-action, at least.

[Arcanist]

This. Make her a sorceress instead, so she still gets the high Cha but has a lot more punch. You guys could use a primary arcanist anyway from the look of things.

Adding Wizard/Sorcerer casting is actually a good idea, but I recommend going with Sublime Cord instead of just saying "That bard thing? Never happened..." because it just sticks of muchkinry.

In my eyes her build should look something like

Bard/4 Warlock/1 Eldritch Theurge/3 Sublime Cord/3 Eldritch+7 +1 Hellfire Warlock or Archmage or whatever that progresses you're Arcane of Invocations. Personally, I recommend advancing you're Invocations since adding a level to that would give you access to an 8th Invocations & an extra 2d6 to your Blast where as Archmage would give you access to High Arcane... Which as a "Sorcerer" would NOT help you to much.

This gives you access to 9th level Arcane casting and Greater Invocations :smallsigh:

EDIT: derp, found out you don't get an 8th Invocation as you only count as a 12th level Warlock regardless... Silly me... Still placing my chip on Hellfire Warlock :smalltongue:

EDIT: double derp, can't enter sublime cord till 10th level.

Bard/4 Warlock/1 Eldritch Theurge/5 Sublime Cord/5 Eldritch Theurge/5

Ah... Lame... Meh... -2d6 Blast damage... not to much of a minus :smallsigh: (still a minus though...)

[nedz]

I don't think you can get into SC before 11, Know(Arc) 13 pre-req.

Bard 1 is passive, and even the spells you get later are like a Sorcerer on mogadons. So if she doesn't like Sorcerer, Bard is probably not for her.

Her choice of Invocations are also passive. These would be good choices later, but not so good now.

I'm not surprised she is bored.

She should probably be playing something else.

[Arcanist]

I don't think you can get into SC before 11, Know(Arc) 13 pre-req.

Quite right, I'll edit my above post to show for that error :smallredface:

[_flint_]

Make her melee! Both bards and warlocks are slightly gishly, and by changing her feat and invocation selection, you could easily make her fill a striker role. You could also turn her bard level into a paladin level for more melee damage

[Alienist]

Every time I've seen someone play a bard it has always been part of an elaborate attempt to hijack the roleplaying, by claiming that only they can talk to the NPCs (because of better modifiers don't you know) and become the center of attention etc.

From your description, I'm guessing she doesn't want to do that.

Bard seems to me to be a poor class to theurge with, since you're not advancing their class features (the musical stuff), only their spell casting, which is pathetic anyway. Sublime chord doesn't fix that problem, because you totally gimp the Warlock side of the build in order to get 9s at level 19. Might as well have gone a proper spellcasting class.

Personally I'd recommend Warlock 5, Ur Priest 2, Eldritch Disciple all the rest of the way.
It does delay the lesser invocations by two levels, but has the advantage of not sucking.

Since you describe the character as a chronicler of sorts, thematically speaking, Archivist might be a better match:

Warlock 2, Archivist 3, Eldritch Disciple all the rest of the way.

Archivist also has a 'monster knowledge' check built in that does similar things to the bard, but it also contributes by (a) not being a bard and ergo (b) not sucking.
Unlike the bard, the monster knowledge checks will get better as you level up and get more ranks in the appropriate knowledge skills.

[Ravenica]

she could easily take that character and make a hell of an arcane archer out of it, might make her enjoy it alot more

[The Redwolf]

Things were totally said here.

This is completely off-topic, but in your sig should that say Tome of Battle or is Tomb of Battle like the Tomb of Unknown Horrors and a specific thing?

[danzibr]

I'm actually playing a DFI IC maximized Bard in a campaign. I was having little fun until I took my first level of Sublime Chord to get some good spells. Honestly I would suggest rerolling.

[Krazzman]

Personally I'd recommend Warlock 5, Ur Priest 2, Eldritch Disciple all the rest of the way.
It does delay the lesser invocations by two levels, but has the advantage of not sucking.

Since you describe the character as a chronicler of sorts, thematically speaking, Archivist might be a better match:

Warlock 2, Archivist 3, Eldritch Disciple all the rest of the way.

Archivist also has a 'monster knowledge' check built in that does similar things to the bard, but it also contributes by (a) not being a bard and ergo (b) not sucking.
Unlike the bard, the monster knowledge checks will get better as you level up and get more ranks in the appropriate knowledge skills.

Hmmm Archivist... wasn't that a Divine Caster? I'm going to ask her tonight (and the DM tomorrow) about this... in what book can I find the Archivist?

@Ravenica:
How? Does EB count as an archery attack for the +1d6 Elemental Damage and so on?

@flint:
How(in terms of which feats)? I'm AFB but I don't think Snowflake Wardance is available at level 1...or is it?

[TuggyNE]

Hmmm Archivist... wasn't that a Divine Caster? I'm going to ask her tonight (and the DM tomorrow) about this... in what book can I find the Archivist?

I want to say it's in Heroes of Horror. And yes, it's a spellbook-based divine caster with Int as the casting stat.

[eggs]

Also Archivist can be found here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3)

[Rejakor]

The character is currently level 3, nearly level 4.


Ergo, a build (warlock 5/ur-priest 2/eldritch disciple X) that leaves the character a warlock 4, i.e. the thing she is bored with right now, is probably a terrible idea.

And if the player dislikes casters, making them play a caster (archivist) is probably a terrible idea.


Bard gishes work from level 3. They're fast melee blenders which sounds a lot like what the player has enjoyed in the past (melee druids, barbarians). They work via bardic self-buffing and cha-focus, which is different from strength focused barbarian/druid, but still similar enough to be understandable and fun.

Alternatively, duskblades are considerably lower op, and in my mind less fun, but the player might like them as they are simpler to play.

Alternatively alternatively, clawlocks or glaivelocks kind of work from level 1, if you increase eldritch blast progression to something that doesn't suck hard. Eldritch Glaive is a least invocation from Complete Mage, and Eldritch Claws is a least invocation from Dragon Mag. Both let you use your EB as a melee full attack as a full round action.

[_flint_]

Here's a great guide I found (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8898052)

What I was thinking initially was that you want to have the hideous blow invocation, and melee focused feats rather than ranged ones (a.k.a. power attack)

And here's how to be bardly (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/21106285/Cruel_Lullabies:_The_Bard_Handbook?pg=1 )

Take whatever you like from both handbooks, mix and match.

Be sure to advance warlock invocation level in PRCs instead of bard level and work up to Bladesinger. It's a simple, not exactly optimized build, but it still has some damage and fun potential

[JKTrickster]

Can you ask her what she would like to play first? What does she want to do in combat? What does she like to do outside of combat?

You mention that she plays Druids and Clerics right? She might enjoy playing an Archivist Archer - that would be a rather enjoyable take on the game.

[Ravenica]

@Ravenica:
How? Does EB count as an archery attack for the +1d6 Elemental Damage and so on?


DM approval may be necessary but the arcane archers second ability to imbue area effects into arrows should be usable with eldretch blast provided you use an invocation or metamagic to turn it into an area effect. Minimum bard level needed would be 4 (I'd go with archeaologist archetype if available) And fill out the remaining level taking warlock up to 4, then it is Arcane archer from then on, dishing out the pain. If it goes beyond 18 you could throw some levels into dragon disciple or elderitch knight somewhere in there to buff up melee ability.

Disclaimer: I play pathfinder now, so my 3.5 is rusty
edit: I just looked at 3.5's Elderitch knight, it's useless, use the pathfinder one if you can :smalleek:

[Krazzman]

DM approval may be necessary but the arcane archers second ability to imbue area effects into arrows should be usable with eldretch blast provided you use an invocation or metamagic to turn it into an area effect. Minimum bard level needed would be 4 (I'd go with archeaologist archetype if available) And fill out the remaining level taking warlock up to 4, then it is Arcane archer from then on, dishing out the pain. If it goes beyond 18 you could throw some levels into dragon disciple or elderitch knight somewhere in there to buff up melee ability.


Ehm Bard Level she needs is 2 for level 1 spells. The entry req's for it are pretty low... Level 1 Spells, Elf/Half-Elf and BaB 6 + 3 feats.
The "bad" part is Arcane Archer doesn't advance EB/Invocations anymore, but she seems to be pretty fond of that Idea. Maybe we can swing that by our DM to get the PF Arcane Archer, which would advance it but would need higher spells.

Furthermore she doesn't want to engage in melee.

[Ravenica]

heh was thinking 4 of each for the bab req not spell req