Help with twf warblade

[Melnir]

Hi, I'm building my warblade/bloodclaw master of 10th level.
I can use core, ToB, CAdv, CArc, CD, UA (no flaws and traits and no buy-off), XPH, FF.
I was thinking on warblade 6/bcm 3/wb +1.
I rolled 18-17-14-14-12-12-10. Feats: imp. critical (kukri) for sure, then I don't know. What maneuvers/stances would you choose? And what feats?
Thanks.

[BowStreetRunner]

First Stance: Blood in the Water. I have a character that uses TWF with this stance right now and it can be awesome.

Wolf Fang Strike and Steel Wind (later upgrade to Mithral Tornado) get you multiple attacks when TWF isn't available. Follow up these or a full attack with Dancing Mongoose.

Weapon Focus / Weapon Specialization / Melee Weapon Mastery + Knowledge Devotion (with Collector of Stories skill trick) allow you to crank your attack and damage.

Weapons of Speed, Bracers of the Blinding Strike, or something else that gives you a Haste-like follow-up attack is great too.

Belt of Battle is a must.

[RFLS]

If (and ONLY if) your group is high-OP/able to deal with a little cheese, you can make them +1 Aptitude Kukris, and then take Lightning Maces from...CD, I think. That nets you a bunch of attacks every round; it's the first half of a trick for infinite attacks/round. You definitely need a good source of bonus damage, though; obviously high Strength, Knowledge Devotion (as mentioned above) does well for this, Two-Weapon Rend can be quite painful (not sure how viable it is).
You might consider a level of Rogue and the feat Craven; this depends on your fighting style, though. If you're front-lining it with no flankers, this will net you exactly zero benefit.
If you can swing it/have the prereqs, which you might, AND if retraining is on the table, you could always try to go Dervish. If I remember right, they get Dex to damage and some pretty solid abilities otherwise. This solves your bonus damage problem.

As always with TWF, you won't be doing a ton of damage any way you slice it. It's generally considered a better idea to get decent damage and then focus on applying status effects. If you hit a lot, it doesn't matter if your opponent is saving 3/4s the time; you're probably going to debuff him every round. Let me know which way you're leaning on this advice (or if you're leaning away from all of it) and I can give you more useful advice.

[Firechanter]

I'd say screw weapons of Speed, way overpriced for that one extra attack per round (and by level 10 you will hardly be able to afford two of them).
Of course your favourite discipline will be Tiger Claw, which has several nice TWF synergies.
Make both weapons Tiger Claw Discipline and if you like also Aptitude, it pays for itself because having Improved Crit means you get a "free" +1/+1 which _stacks_ with the enhancement bonus of GMW.
At level 10 you can have Dancing Mongoose and Pouncing Charge, though you can skip the latter if you can get Pounce any other way (such as a Spirit Lion dip).

You and Blood In The Water will be BFF, at full TWF plus extra Mongoose attacks you should quickly enter a en escalating chain reaction until nothing remains standing.

The only drawback about it is that since you will be using Tiger Claw maneuvers and stances all the time, adding a second Discipline property to your weapon is probably not worth it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Boots of speed are a pretty good way to get haste-effects on a non-caster; but if you have an arcane caster in your party, ask him not to be selfish and prepare one or two hastes per day (offer to buy him a pearl of power 3 if you need it to convince him/her).

[kitcik]

I agree w Firechanter.

Speed/Haste don't stack with Mongoose anyway.

[BowStreetRunner]

I agree w Firechanter.

Speed/Haste don't stack with Mongoose anyway.

First - Martial maneuvers are expended once used, at least until you can use your recovery method. An alternate way to achieve a similar effect can always be handy.

Second - The haste effect allows someone using a Full Attack to make one additional attack as part of that full attack. It does not stack with any other effect that allows someone to make an extra attack as part of a full attack, but Dancing Mongoose does not do that. Dancing Mongoose is a Swift action that allows someone to make one additional attack with each weapon they wield. This is a completely separate action from the full attack, and does not even require a full attack to use.

So it really depends on whether the DM rules Dancing Mongoose and Haste/Speed effects stack or not. I would suggest you approach your DM before this comes up in the game of course.

[Mando Knight]

First - Martial maneuvers are expended once used, at least until you can use your recovery method. An alternate way to achieve a similar effect can always be handy.
Warblades have a ridiculously easy recovery method. Swift Action + non-Maneuver Attack returns all of your expended maneuvers, IIRC.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sadly due this rule



Multiple Attacks
A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full attack action in order to get more than one attack.


unless otherwise stated (like in Wolf fang strike) you must indeed use a full attack for the dancing/raging mongoose maneuvers.

[Firechanter]

Let's look at the cost of Haste Effects:
Speed weapons: +3 bonus. That ramps up the weapon price from +3 (+1 Aptitude Discipline) to _+6_, and investment of an additional 54.000GP _per weapon_.

Boots of Speed are a lot cheaper and should be considered, though at level 10 you may still be a bit short of cash for them. The 10 rounds per day should suffice.

Also, consider a Belt of Battle, which effectively allows you to Move+Full Attack 3/day for 12K.

[RFLS]

I think perhaps we're a little off topic here; he was asking for feats and stances.

[Metahuman1]

I'd add a few Bard levels, and then tack on about 2 levels of seeker of the song. Then, land the Dragonfire Inspiration feat and extra music.


From there, focus mostly on Tiger Claw and Diamond mind to get mobility, counters, and lots of attacks for both weapons. This will hit it's peak when you get 8th and 9th lvl manuvers. For 8th, no matter what, get Raging Mongoose. For Ninth, get Time Stands Still. Combine with Dragon Fire Inspiration and Optimized Inspire Courage. Smile as everyone's Jaws drop.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Weapon focus and weapon specliazation (Possibly even the greater ones) are not that bad on a Warblade chassis, first if for some reason you change your primary weapo (Ie you found a pair of sweet handaxes) you can make those feats apply to the new weapons, two TWF is a force multiplier so instead of getting +2 damage you get +4 damage, which while not awesome does help with your overall DPR.

You also should get a pair of gloves of the master strategist and just bother with TWF, since the gloves gives you ITWF and GTWF is not worth a feat slot (at least in my opinion).

[Tvtyrant]

I'd add a few Bard levels, and then tack on about 2 levels of seeker of the song. Then, land the Dragonfire Inspiration feat and extra music.


From there, focus mostly on Tiger Claw and Diamond mind to get mobility, counters, and lots of attacks for both weapons. This will hit it's peak when you get 8th and 9th lvl manuvers. For 8th, no matter what, get Raging Mongoose. For Ninth, get Time Stands Still. Combine with Dragon Fire Inspiration and Optimized Inspire Courage. Smile as everyone's Jaws drop.

I was going to suggest something like this myself. DFI is the perfect extra damage source to make TWF relevant, especially if you can get the sonic version.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Incredibly Feat taxing though, you need SotWR (1), Dragontouched (2), Draconic Heritage (3) DFI (4) and Twf (5)at the very least... which would come online at level 9 the soonest without flaws... which considering the starting level isn't that bad...

Have you ever started a post and when you checked for some details you realized your post is stupid and you end up countering your own point? Well I just did.

[Firechanter]

I was going to suggest something like this myself. DFI is the perfect extra damage source to make TWF relevant, especially if you can get the sonic version.

If you do that, you should definitely also take the Song of White Raven feat to make your Warblade and Bard levels stack.

[RFLS]

The DFI suggestion is an excellent way to get bonus damage; however, it doesn't always go with the character. However, if you like the mechanics, I would talk to your DM about refluffing it (this is my preferred method when I have a mechanical need and a character need conflicting)

[Ammutseba]

If you're a TWFer, might Stormguard Warrior be a good choice for you? If you combine this with Lightning Mace and Aptitude kukris, your touch attacks that threaten critical hits should lead to additional (optional) touch attacks via Combat Rhythm, and a serious mess of extra damage with all of your attacks in the following round. If you're a PA warrior, then the Channel the Storm portion should also be useful for you, as I'm sure you can find a way to get your opponent to provoke at least one AoO from you, right?

Come to think of it, I think I had a whole murderous tripper build that went something like this, at some point. But that was a very different build, and not for this topic.

[BowStreetRunner]

There is another way to get Dragonfire Inspiration for the cost of only one feat...

Leadership.

I was amused with the mention of DFI because I can attest to the fact it really does do wonders with this build. However, in my case the TWF character I mentioned in the above post is in a party that already has a bard that uses this. If your party doesn't have a bard doing this for you, you could always pick up a cohort.

[Firechanter]

Lightning Mace + Aptitude Kukri is hilariously broken, btw, but if the group's optimization level is high enough, sure, go for it.

(If you ask me, odds are that if the ToB had ever been errataed, that feat's wording would have been changed to apply only to weapons defined exactly in the feat's title.)

However... here's some food for thought: at level 11 and with Dancing Mongoose, a Full Attack is likely to produce about 3 extra attacks, so that will be 11 attacks in one round plus a possible Haste attack. At level 16+ with Raging Mongoose, this increases to up to 18 attacks per round, every other round, and a bunch of Crits to confirm.

My problem with this is: are you sure everyone else at the table is going to have as much fun waiting for their turn as it is for you making up to 40 rolls for attacks, confirmations and damage?

For all I know and have experienced, waiting for a super-multi-attacker to pull through their Full Attack sequence is terribly tedious, especially if it happens all the time. It's also likely your DM is going to be annoyed sooner or later.

It's a rather nasty dilemma because TWF lives off making as many attacks as possible, but doing so annoys everyone else. Which is basically why I prefer THF even when using Tiger Claw stuff.

[Metahuman1]

Yeah, a Leadershipped Bard is a good way to go. That way they can do the music and support casting and not complain, and since the whole party is getting buffs and support casting they won't hate you for hogging it.

And in the mean time, you can rely mostly on those Tiger Claw Manuvers that let you attack with a Jump check once with each weapon, then every once in a blue moon, bust out with Dancing Mongoose or Raging Mongoose + Time Stands Still.

That way your only doing something they'll find annoying often enough for the impact of "I can't believe he just did that, holy crap!" not to wear off. Thus meaning there less likely to veto doing it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

There is another way to get Dragonfire Inspiration for the cost of only one feat...

Leadership.

I was amused with the mention of DFI because I can attest to the fact it really does do wonders with this build. However, in my case the TWF character I mentioned in the above post is in a party that already has a bard that uses this. If your party doesn't have a bard doing this for you, you could always pick up a cohort.

Actually an optimized Inspire Courage bard without DFI can be a decent addition to any multi-weapon fighter, since it gives an accuracy and damage bonus (which I do agree won't be as high as the DFI) so in less optimized parties will probably work better (it also lowers the amount of die rolled which can be good or bad depending on your tastes).

The problem with Leadership is that is hilariously broken, it is the single most powerful in the game bar none (who thought a feat was worth an extra character?) and in many tables it will probably be banned.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Definitely Stormguard Warrior. You may or may not want Leap of the Heavens (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/leap-of-the-heavens--1742/) to help with your standing jump checks for Sudden Leap. If you pick up Leaping Dragon Stance, you wouldn't benefit much from this feat, of course.

I guess you don't need maneuver choosing help? You basically want all of the non-single attack (usually with jumping) strikes of Tiger Claw. Except Swooping Dragon Strike. That's so insanely good, even a TWF Warblade should get it.

Stances: Punishing Stance will be +1d6 to each weapon, which is nice. Press the Advantage, aside from the obvious benefits of being able to "10 ft step" might open up full attacks in some situations, too. Leading the Charge stance once you obtain Pouncing Charge maneuver can be pretty devastating (and then you add in raging mongoose or the like and it's even better). Leaping Dragon stance, since by RAW it adds 10 feet to your jump, makes Sudden Leap for moving into full attack position much easier. Tactics of the Wolf is just a straight damage bonus against flanked foes to stack with your int to damage. For your level 8 stance, Wolf Pack Tactics will let you gradually move from foe to foe as you full attack.

EDIT: Oh, you do want maneuver help.

Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose, Pouncing Charge, and Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip. And every Warblade should grab IH Surge and WR Tactics. Less useful for TWF, but I also deeply love Lightning Recovery. Crushing Vise + 5 ft stepping away doesn't boost offense, but screws an equal reach foe out of retaliating against your full attack w/o a save to resist, so it's still quite nice espesially since the maneuver has no pre-requisites to learn. Lion's Roar is only a swift and will boost your remaining attacks' damage by +5 as well as allies'. Clarion Call is also a swift and is a nice group buff, though it doesn't really help you directly.
If you get to 9th level maneuvers, Time Stands Still (plus Raging Mongoose!) is obviously the cream of the crop. Problem is meeting the maneuver known pre-reqs since so few diamond mind maneuvers up to then benefit TWF much, or at all. Only one that really does is Quicksilver Motion, and that's basically just "Sudden Leap, 12 character levels later," for the purposes you'd use it for.

[Melnir]

First of all: thank you, I really appreciate your help.
Second: it's not an high OP party, so no aptitude+lightning mace (I love it, but my GM would kill me).
Third: unfortunately no gloves of balanced hand (no MIC at all), so I have to get ITWF by having dex 17.

I was thinking about this build, I'd like some more advices/changes :smallsmile:

Human warblade 6/bloodclaw master 3/warblade +1

Str 20 (18+2 lvl)
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 10

Feats:
human) martial study (burning blade)
1st) TWF
3rd) ?
warblade bonus) improved initiative ?
6th) ITWF
9th) Improved critical (kukri)

Maneuvers by PC level
1) moment of perfect mind, wolf fang strike, sudden leap, burning blade (martial study)
2) leading the attack
3) wall of blades
4) tactical strike (change with sudden leap)
5) iron heart surge
6) white raven tactics (change with leading the attack)
7) death from above
9) pouncing charge
10) dancing mongoose

Stances: blood in the water, leading the charge

Burning blade should be good to increase damage output, leading the charge+pouncing charge+dancing mongoose means 6 attacks dealing 1d4+15 each (not bad).

I would like to get stormguard warrior, but I can't do it now. What feat at lvl 3? Is ms for burning blade a good choice or would you take something else? Warblade bonus feat? Maneuvers choice?

EDIT: @RFLS debuffing would be nice, what's your advice about it?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Definitely Stormguard Warrior. You may or may not want Leap of the Heavens (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/leap-of-the-heavens--1742/) to help with your standing jump checks for Sudden Leap. If you pick up Leaping Dragon Stance, you wouldn't benefit much from this feat, of course.

I guess you don't need maneuver choosing help? You basically want all of the non-single attack (usually with jumping) strikes of Tiger Claw. Except Swooping Dragon Strike. That's so insanely good, even a TWF Warblade should get it.

Stances: Punishing Stance will be +1d6 to each weapon, which is nice. Press the Advantage, aside from the obvious benefits of being able to "10 ft step" might open up full attacks in some situations, too. Leading the Charge stance once you obtain Pouncing Charge maneuver can be pretty devastating (and then you add in raging mongoose or the like and it's even better). Leaping Dragon stance, since by RAW it adds 10 feet to your jump, makes Sudden Leap for moving into full attack position much easier. Tactics of the Wolf is just a straight damage bonus against flanked foes to stack with your int to damage. For your level 8 stance, Wolf Pack Tactics will let you gradually move from foe to foe as you full attack.

EDIT: Oh, you do want maneuver help.

Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose, Pouncing Charge, and Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip. And every Warblade should grab IH Surge and WR Tactics. Less useful for TWF, but I also deeply love Lightning Recovery. Crushing Vise + 5 ft stepping away doesn't boost offense, but screws an equal reach foe out of retaliating against your full attack w/o a save to resist, so it's still quite nice espesially since the maneuver has no pre-requisites to learn. Lion's Roar is only a swift and will boost your remaining attacks' damage by +5 as well as allies'. Clarion Call is also a swift and is a nice group buff, though it doesn't really help you directly.
If you get to 9th level maneuvers, Time Stands Still (plus Raging Mongoose!) is obviously the cream of the crop. Problem is meeting the maneuver known pre-reqs since so few diamond mind maneuvers up to then benefit TWF much, or at all. Only one that really does is Quicksilver Motion, and that's basically just "Sudden Leap, 12 character levels later," for the purposes you'd use it for.

Getting Moment of Perfect Mind and maybe Action before thought is a good option and it helps you with the pre-requisites for Time Stands Still, getting Greater Insightful Strike or Ruby Nightmare Blade is also a good option for the times when you can't full attack.

Grabbing a few of the maneuver granting items will help a lot, and for both Action before thought and Moment of the perfect mind quite cheap.

[BowStreetRunner]

What feat at lvl 3?

You may want to take a serious look at Adaptive Style - particularly if you pick up some fairly situational maneuvers that you don't want to have readied by default.

[Melnir]

You may want to take a serious look at Adaptive Style - particularly if you pick up some fairly situational maneuvers that you don't want to have readied by default.

In this game if you change your set of maneuvers with adaptive style, you will have a number of readied maneuvers equal to the numer of readied ones you had before using adaptive style. Should I take it anyway?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I am not sure, it still does give some utility and as a Warblade you can recover your maneuver quite easily.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Adaptive Style gets much better if you should dip another adept class, as it would apply to both.

You may want to dip, to help shore up pre-reqs for Time Stands Still and/or get some unique maneuvers not available to warblades.

Swordsage in particular has some TWF-friendly exclusive stuff, though in general I think crusader dip is more synergistic with warblade, just because of the recovery not taking any actions.

EDIT: Wait, didn't realize what you were saying here....


In this game if you change your set of maneuvers with adaptive style, you will have a number of readied maneuvers equal to the numer of readied ones you had before using adaptive style. Should I take it anyway?

Wow, that's terrible! I feel awful for any swordsages in that game, that basically shuts down their entire class!

No, Adaptive Style is not worth taking, then. Ever.

What a terrible houserule...

[Dusk Eclipse]

Adaptive Style gets much better if you should dip another adept class, as it would apply to both.

You may want to dip, to help shore up pre-reqs for Time Stands Still and/or get some unique maneuvers not available to warblades.

Swordsage in particular has some TWF-friendly exclusive stuff, though in general I think crusader dip is more synergistic with warblade, just because of the recovery not taking any actions.

Could be worthwhile to pick up some Burning blade (1d6+IL fire damage is pretty good if you have multiple attacks).

A single level dip at Character level 9 will get you the 3 save replacing manevuers, Burning blade, counter charge Baffling Defence (only if you invest a little in sense motive) and another maneuver of your choice, plus a stance. Pretty good deal IMO

[StreamOfTheSky]

*snip*

I don't think burning blade is worth spending a feat on.
Do not get rid of sudden leap! It is golden for ensuring full attacks! And Tactical Strike is pretty meh for you anyway.
Death From Above isn't very good, especially for a TWF.

Looking at Bloodclaw Master...I'm really not sure it's worth advancing past level 2. Using the misleadingly named Pouncing Strike is most likely inferior to using a strike maneuver or just sudden leaping or pouncing charging into a full attack. Sudden Leap and Pouncing Charge = 2 times each combat to full attack when you otherwise couldn't. Quicksilver motion later on makes it 3. That should be enough, most combats. And it's not hard to recover maneuvers, either.

I'd use the WB bonus feat on IH Aura to set up for Stormguard Warrior.