[3.5/PF] Vital Strike as a readied action

[Novawurmson]

A light came on for me in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14033071&postcount=38): Why not use Vital Strike when readying an attack for some extra damage. It'd be even better if you could pick up double damage using a brace weapon. Unfortunately, the rules seem to be unclear on how Vital Strike and brace interact (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14034449&postcount=48). I made a thread on the Paizo forums (http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz6n9k?Brace-and-Readying-a-Vital-Strike) for a developer ruling, for what it's worth.

Any other ideas for Vital Strike and its use as a readied action?

[rollforeigninit]

I can't imagine it would be unbalanced. Even without 3.5 material as far as chargers go, it'd be doing less damage than they would. I'd assume that you can use Power Attack (declared beforehand) to up your damage. It'd also make the spear formation pretty scary to charge with damage x3 or so on the table. Sad that the feat is for +6 BAB only ( I understand why tho).

I applaud your initiative on asking for a ruling but it only seems to make so much difference with some of the crowd here. (RAW RAW RAW!!!) Still, it never hurts to ask. This does run the risk of heading the direction of the Vital Strike + Spring Attack threads. I personally would allow both. Fun Spear fighter guy that might be effective moving or no.

[Blisstake]

Hmm, when you Ready an Action, don't you prepare a standard action on a certain condition? I would imagine that means Vital Strike actually interacts with it. Asmodeous knows it could stand to interact with a few other abilities (Spring Attack, I'm looking at you).

[Novawurmson]

I'm hoping the answer is "yes." The thing is, if does work, then brace might do more damage than a charge (assuming no pounce, as pounce is much less common in a pure-PF environment).

[ThiagoMartell]

Isn't Vital Strike a full-round action?

[Starbuck_II]

Isn't Vital Strike a full-round action?

Nope, it is a standard action like Martial Adept Manuevers in ToB.

[ThiagoMartell]

Nope, it is a standard action like Martial Adept Manuevers in ToB.

I misremembered, then.

EDIT: Funnily enough, the classes that would work better with Vital Strike due to bit damage die (Synthesist, Monk), don't usually take that as a feat, since they get multiple attacks.

[ericgrau]

Vital strike is a standard action. You may ready a standard action. What's the problem? Were you thinking you could only ready an attack action? Did PF change the readying rules?

Sounds fine to me. You can ready all kinds of things.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yup, you can ready any standard action.

If you have Vital Strike and no other standard action opton that's superior, you'd be a fool not to use it on all readied attacks.

That said, Vital Strike is a weak feat most of the time, so having it at all is the real sticking point.

(You can get a super big 2H weapon or natural weapon + strong jaw spell + Imp. Natural Attack feat and actually get decent bonus damage out of it, but using it with a smaller weapon in a skirmisher type build like the feat seems intended for it's utterly godawful)

[Novawurmson]

Well, Word of God (http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2u4o&page=475?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#23733) says it doesn't work. From James Jacobs:


Bracing a weapon is a specific action, and as such you can't combine it with a vital strike.

Doesn't mean a DM can't rule otherwise (as is fairly frequent, in the case of Vital Strike), but RAI, it doesn't appear to work.

[StreamOfTheSky]

JJ is not god.

He says flat out he does not write the rules. And he is frequently wrong, by plain and simple RAW, in his pronouncements.

JJ is like the 3E FAQ, except not blatantly wrong nearly as often (god, the 3E FAQ was horrible).

[ericgrau]

I missed that the OP was asking about brace. Oops. You may ready an action to vital strike. You may not ready an action to brace to vital strike. Bracing to vital strike does not exist. It's like magic missiling to spider climb, it makes no sense. Each one is a separate action. Or like using your trip to disarm to sunder. Just no.

Or you can think of it as being like combing rapid shot and many shot for an extra arrow. That one makes no sense because rapid shot is part of a full attack and many shot is a standard action.

[Novawurmson]

Or you can think of it as being like combing rapid shot and many shot for an extra arrow. That one makes no sense because rapid shot is part of a full attack and many shot is a standard action.

From the SRD...

Manyshot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/manyshot-combat---final):


When making a full-attack action with a bow...

Though JJ agrees with your view on vital strike/brace.

[Blisstake]

Yeah, James is the creative director of Paizo, not one of the rules guys. When asked a rules question, he responds how he would handle the situation as a DM, and not necesarily what the rules dictate.

Though I understand the reasoning, I was under the impression that bracing happens whenever you ready an action with the appropriate weapon, not that it was its own type of action.

Edit: Going over the "Brace" description, it looks like I may be wrong.

[ericgrau]

From the SRD...

Manyshot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/manyshot-combat---final):



Though JJ agrees with your view on vital strike/brace.

D'oh naturally I use a manyshot example and PF changes manyshot. In 3.5 it's different. Um <insert other example of an illegal attempt to use a standard action ability with an ability that only allows an attack>.

[Karoht]

Just a bit of a minor nitpick...

Bracing a Weapon as far as I understand doing so in real life, basically means you are digging in, bracing yourself for impact, and probably doing the same with the weapon. This can be done in a couple of ways, like bracing the weapon against the body, against the ground, or a combination of both.

Vital Strike, is first off a strike, which already sounds like the opposite of what you are doing with Bracing. Second, Vital Strike involves aiming for more of a vital area right?

It's hard to imagine combining the two actions together, just going by the description, not what the rules say. I guess one COULD potentially brace in such a way that the angle is going for a less armored or more vital area (with a polearm, that would be pointing it more for neck level rather than torso, or maybe below torso such as crotch/thigh/knee), but it sounds rather unlikely to work.
As a DM I would say maybe, and probably lean towards allowing it.

Side Question: Can you Power Attack on a Brace, or apply any other such feat to Bracing?
If yes, I would be more inclined to allow it (Vital Strike + Brace) than not, but that is just my personal opinion.

[Novawurmson]

This is how I imagine a Vital Strike+Brace would work (http://youtu.be/PD5Imb7vWSc).

The only fluff for Vital Strike is "You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal." Brace is a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal; they seem like a perfect match, fluff-wise anyway. You patiently wait until your opponent comes charging in, defenses down, and then impale him right in a lethal area.

[StreamOfTheSky]

In any case, the Vital Strike damage is bonus dice damage, so it wouldn't be multiplied. So I don't see the appeal of this combo anyway.

[Novawurmson]

::opens mouth::


Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.

::closes mouth::

Well, damn, not as good as I was thinking. Still, [vital strike damage + (regular damage)x2] is by definition better than just (regular damage)x2.