[PF] Sorcerer Advice

[Karoht]

I could use some help creating a level 12 Sorcerer
3.5 material is allowed under advisement, we are restricted by which books we can actually find access for, but otherwise 3.5 suggestions are acceptable.
Beyond that, it is a primarily Pathfinder campaign.

For anyone who recalls the party (Barbarian, Monk, Trapmaking Rogue/Ranger, Summoner) which was nearly decimated by Steve the Aboleth, I'm finally rejoining that group, in that storyline. And yes, Steve is still alive and at large, the party does business with him regularly. For now.
They have no arcane support so far and are mostly melee oriented, so I would like to make a Sorcerer.
Why Sorcerer and not Wizard is under the spoiler tab, because it isn't really all that relevant, but some might want the explanation.

1-Playstyle choice. I just prefer spontaneous spellcasting as I tend to be a reactive player. I would rather be able to spam Dispel magic if need be to protect the party rather than use it once and then be SOL.
2-I know both in character and out of character that I am up against some wizards and clerics in the near future. I don't feel I can out-prepare other prepared casters, especially as this DM will be playing prepared casters properly.
3-I will come out and say it. I suck with prepared casting.


Now, the character is a paranoid little nut. Item wise, I plan on building more for immunities and the like, and generally anything that gets me a variety of "no" buttons to employ. IE-Ring of Spell Battle from Magic Item Compendium

Spell selection so far is oriented towards Conjuration and Illusion, so I am going to stick with that, but any suggestions on spell selection is good. I have ready access to the Spell Compendium, suggestions from there are great as I don't really know that book and it's contents all that well.

Why Conjuration?
Orb spells are difficult to counter and provide reliable damage, Conjuration spells typically can't be removed from the battle and the group completely lacks battlefield control. Conjuration spells typically don't really care about Spell Resistance.
Conjuration = Summons, which opens up many doors. Yes, there is a summoner in the party but he relies almost exclusively on his Eidolon and rarely takes advantage of the combat options of summoning.
Ultimately, I feel I get a lot of bang for my buck via Conjuration.

Why Illusion?
The Illusion shell game is one I feel I can confidently make work for me to give myself a layer of survivablility (baring of course the hard counter of True Seeing), and Illusions give me options like the Shadow lines of spells for a bit more versatility if needed.

Other Spell Schools
I'll take them under advisement. Be aware that we are at the point of the game where most things can and will be immune to fear, mind affecting, and should have decent saves. But I will still take any and all spell selection suggestions under advisement. I would just prefer to keep my focus centered around Conjuration.

What do I need?
Archetype Selection (I'm considering the one that lets you use Int for casting instead of Charisma, thoughts?)
Race Selection (I'm looking to not be human, a strong arguement has been made for Gnome)
Familiar Selection (UMD + Familiar = Fun, so something which can do so would be great, but not required)
Skill Selection
Feat Selection-Still and Silent metamagic are rather important to me, Spell Focus Conjuration (and Greater) looks like a good pick, an arguement has been made for augment summoning but I'm unsure how much use I'll get out of that.
Spell Selection-Again, Spell Compendium is a resource we have access to, but not one I know well.
Item Selection (starting cash is standard WBL for a Level 12 character)
Consideration for future advancement-Presige classes and feats?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I would reconsider going human, as they have the best favored class bonus in all of Pathfinder (bonus spells known). Without shenanigans that would be 9 additional spells known for you. If you're going Gnome anyway, check out Eternal Hope and Pyromaniac alternate racial traits.

You should note that several conjurations were nerfed in Pathfinder. Glitterdust, Grease, Black Tentacles (indirectly), and especially Solid Fog are all less effective, though the first three still have uses. There are still good battlefield control spells out there, especially with 3.5 support, but you might end up summoning and blasting more than you thought. If you want to do some planar binding, note that PF bumped the HD of some convenient creatures. Some illusions were also nerfed (Mirror Image), but this school's effectiveness often really depends on your DM. As for other schools, Haste and Slow are still great.

The INT casting archetype is pretty good; if you're going to orb things to death, one of the many archetypes that adds +1 damage per die for a particular element works quite well. See if you can get Searing Spell (Sandstorm) into the game, and orb of fire becomes quite reliable.

I'm not sure which conjurations you'll be using whose primary effects involve saves, so I'm going to have to disagree on Spell Focus as a good choice. If you're using it to get Cloudy Conjuration (Complete Mage) I take that back.

[avr]

There's a trick which may be useful to you if you play a half-elf. Get Paragon Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge) as one of your 3rd level spells, then at the cost of a 3rd level spell & a standard action you have the Expanded Arcana (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-arcana) feat for 1 min/level. Spell diversity won't be such a problem for you any more.

[The Redwolf]

If you like parts of a couple different bloodlines Crossblooded archetype is good for picking and choosing what you want from each one, a friend used it to get a familiar from the arcane bloodline and then neglected the rest of it to get stuff from the dragon line.

[Ravenica]

the downside to crossblooded being that you are now 2 spell levels behind rather than 1 (but at least you can quicken the hell out of your lower level spells until you actually GAIN some of those higher level spells)

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

There's a trick which may be useful to you if you play a half-elf. Get Paragon Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge) as one of your 3rd level spells, then at the cost of a 3rd level spell & a standard action you have the Expanded Arcana (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-arcana) feat for 1 min/level. Spell diversity won't be such a problem for you any more.Wow. That is incredible utility, and it gets even better if you can quicken it and cast "just the right spell" in that round of combat. It appears half-elves have become the standard spontaneous-caster-race in PF now; humans are back on top if your DM removes the race restriction on Paragon Surge.

[Darth Grall]

There's a trick which may be useful to you if you play a half-elf. Get Paragon Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge) as one of your 3rd level spells, then at the cost of a 3rd level spell & a standard action you have the Expanded Arcana (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-arcana) feat for 1 min/level. Spell diversity won't be such a problem for you any more.That's... Just plain cool.

[masterjoda99]

Or you could just go human, take the Racial Heritage feat to count as half-elf for the purposes of picking up that spell, and also get the lovely favored class bonus spells.

[avr]

Or you could just go human, take the Racial Heritage feat to count as half-elf for the purposes of picking up that spell, and also get the lovely favored class bonus spells.
If you're starting at level 1, or even at level 6 when that trick first becomes available, sure. The OP is starting at level 12 and so the sorcerer knows 20 spells from level 1-6 plus 5 spells from the bloodline. The advantage of the trick is that the 1-2 spells chosen are chosen at the time they're needed.

A dozen extra HP have their uses too.

[Karoht]

Or you could just go human, take the Racial Heritage feat to count as half-elf for the purposes of picking up that spell, and also get the lovely favored class bonus spells.
...
That.
Is.
Brilliant.
I can and will squeeze a feat out of the build to make that work. Being able to pull ANY spell I want out of thin air, as many times per day as I have 3rd level spell slots? Sir yes sir.

Also, Sage Archetype + Arcane Bloodline are both looking solid. The Dex and Int bonus are looking really good to go with Sage.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/sage
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline


Silent and Still spell are going on the list.
Any thoughts on Disruptive Spell for annoying other casters? Concentration checks aren't that big a deal in Pathfinder (in my experience) but a +1 spell level isn't that big a hit.
Cloudy Conjuration?
Yeah, that sounds awesome. Thanks for that!
Retributive Spell
Nice potential counter to at least 1 melee attacker per day. And if I use a Conjuration effect, it would also potentially trigger Cloudy Conjuration.
Found a similar trick with Illusions which would justify having Spell Focus: Illusion for mostly the same reason. Not nearly as awesome though.
Dazzling Illusion.

My DM already cleared the Rapid Metamagic feat. No idea if Pathfinder Sorcerers still need it to cast Metamagic in short order or not.


Stuff I'm noting for my own research later, under spoiler cut.

Dimensional Jaunt-Free personal teleportation. It's in the 'Meh' pile though.
Energy Abjuration-Free resistances if I cast Dispel Magic, among other abjuration spells. Nice, but not amazing.
Toppling Spell-Free ranged trip attempts with magic missile. Why not?
Magic Disruption-Immediate action to mess with someone's casting. It's free, why not?
Metamagic School Focus-Cheaper access to metamagic
Retributive Spell-Nice potential counter to at least 1 melee attacker per day. And if I use a Conjuration effect, it would also potentially trigger Cloudy Conjuration.



Okay, this is all sounding completely awesome.
Lets start talking items. I remember hearing a starting gold value somewhere between 62000 and 108000. So lets get some ideas and see what happens.
Eternal Wand of Anticipate Teleporation seems like a wise purchase.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851
Lots of goodies from this thread seem appropriate.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Since we're looking to increase your spells known to the stratosphere, Runestaves (Magic Item Compendium) are great. Under your DM, any runestaff would require DM approval, so you might as well ask him for a custom one. MiC notes that custom runestaff spells should be tied by a theme, so why not make the most thematic runestaff ever and put all the Heart of [Element] spells from Complete Mage on it? Look them up and smile.

The Eternal Wand of Anticipate Teleportation cost is a bit high for at most two third level spell slots, but those spell slots are more tempting for you. It's a tough call. I'd still make a list of items I want and rank that one relatively low. Ernir's list has uses the reasonable base assumption that you don't have some other specific trick for X need, but a utility sorcerer indeed does. Keep that in mind when going through parts like Flying. Everyone still needs daze negation, though. Other good item links include Bunko's Bargain Basement (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=350.0) for big stuff, and Shax's Indispensable Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101) for small but fierce stuff.

[jmelesky]

Not familiar with Runestaves, but in PF's Ultimate Equipment, they have "Page of Spell Knowledge", which gives you a new spell known. They're priced like Pearls of Power (1k gp for a level 1 spell, 4k gp for a second level, etc).

[Karoht]

Not familiar with Runestaves, but in PF's Ultimate Equipment, they have "Page of Spell Knowledge", which gives you a new spell known. They're priced like Pearls of Power (1k gp for a level 1 spell, 4k gp for a second level, etc).Oooooooh. I'ma gonna have to look those up! Probably not going to be part of my starting cash unless I'm missing something critical. Still, AWESOME to know about. We don't have Ultimate Equipment, but as long as that's on the PFSRD I should be fine.


Taking Sage, I give up Arcane Bond, which means I lose my Familiar doesn't it?
I could just Planar Binding/Summon something and not worry too much about it. I was going to grab Improved Familiar, use a Mephit as a UMD platform. That is one less expense I have to worry about for a while.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

There is nothing wrong with Mephit as an improved familiar, but my favorite improved familiar is the Beguiler from Shining South. Constant true seeing and naturally awesome hide checks make for an incredible scout.

[Karoht]

There is nothing wrong with Mephit as an improved familiar, but my favorite improved familiar is the Beguiler from Shining South. Constant true seeing and naturally awesome hide checks make for an incredible scout.And True Seeing can be expensive to get (75000 out of my 108000) right now. That would last me a while. I'll have to look it up, see if I can find a resource on it.


EDIT: Update

Character creation went well. High Int means lots of skills, and potent ones to boot.
Ring of Spell Battle and a pretty high Spellcraft? Immediate action dispel magic any time I succeed on a Spellcraft check? Yes please.
+1 Buckler of Soulfire. I chose a buckler rather than armor because I can hand a buckler off to someone if need be. Like the Barbarian of the party.
I decided against the Eternal Wand of Anticipate Teleportation, partly because it was too meta, and partly because I want the party to pay for some of their own protection for a change. One player is sitting on 150K, keeps whining about being abushed when they rest, still refuses to buy a wand of rope trick. So I will worry about Anticipate Teleportation later. Same with Detect Scrying and Nondetection for the time being. But my first big cut of treasure will probably end up being spent on such things.

A Wand of Paragon Surge is a 'meh' priority for now, as I have plenty of 3rd level spell slots, but I would feel better about having more charges to draw upon if needed.

I am missing a means of being immune to poison and petrification, my Dex needs a boost, my +2 Cloak of Resistance will have to last for a while. After that, Mind Blank is my next big priority, while resistances/immunities are a minor priority.

Gloves of the Master Strategist (Gloves of Storing + True Strike 1/Day) are cheap, and would be cheaper than boosting my Dex for the (few) ranged touch AC spells I have. I might back that up with a Ring of True Strike just to be on the safe side. For the cost it is rather worth it.
Third Eye Clarity or Third Eye Reveal are both cheap, so I might pick up one of those. Clarity is a handy panic button.

As for feats, Cloudy Conjuration, Invisible Spell, Snowsight, and a few other fun tricks. Still Silent Invisible Grease, and a Cloud that sickens someone or provides me cover appears. Invisible Summons. Invisible Orb of Sound/Force/Fire/Cold/Electricity. Invisible Resilient Sphere. Invisible Wall of Stone to turn my enemies into MIMES! Invisible Cloudkill-Silent But Deadly!

[Karoht]

Okie Dokie.
So the first session went down without a hitch. Big thanks to everyone who helped me.


I decided to also add on the template Razmiran Priest for some extra versitility, and bought some Divine scrolls.
Due to the trickster/paranoid nature of the character, he fooled the party completely into thinking that I'm a Neutral Cleric of a Cause (Survival). I saved a party member only for him to pick a fight with another party member and die shortly afterwards.

I was invisible, flying, and nondetectable a good 30 feet outside the room, so I used my cantrip Open/Close to close the door. I was then readying an action to throw up an illusion of a Wall of Stone when they opened the door. But, it resolved itself neatly enough.

I haven't had to utilize Paragon Surge yet. I'm really waiting for the party to call out cheese when I pull that stunt.


So, the future. Feats. Someone recommended the Trickery Devotion feat to back up my Illusions. Any thoughts?

[grarrrg]

Granted, the op is well past this point now, but I just needed to chime in.


If you like parts of a couple different bloodlines Crossblooded archetype is good for picking and choosing what you want from each one, a friend used it to get a familiar from the arcane bloodline and then neglected the rest of it to get stuff from the dragon line.

the downside to crossblooded being that you are now 2 spell levels behind rather than 1 (but at least you can quicken the hell out of your lower level spells until you actually GAIN some of those higher level spells)

I like Crossblooded for making a "Gish-ish" Dragon Disciple, and then ignoring most of the Draconic bits.
There is a fair amount of overlap with the Bloodline and the PrC. So being able to swap out some of the extra stuff is handy. Example: The Bloodline has ALL THREE Form of Dragon spells as bonuses, and the PrC lets you Form of Dragon II twice per day. That is WAY too much "form of" for my taste.

My (current) favorite is pairing Draconic with Orc (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/orc-bloodline).
All of your damage spells do +2 damage per die (only +1 if NOT of your 'dragon energy type').
The Energy Resist at level 3 of Drac. is replaced by the level 20 of Drac. And the Orc 3 ability removes the Light Sensativity, and still gives a Nat Armor bonus.
9th level is Orc all the way, as it grants an Inherent STR bonus. Between Orc blood and Dragon Disciple, you'll get _+10_ STR.
15th level is again a 'doubling' of Dragon-ness, so we'll go with the Orc ability for "super" Enlarge Person.
20th level is Dragon again (finally), as the Immunities are pretty good.

[Karoht]

In our other campaign, another player plays a Sorcerer, pretty much with a similar build. But, he only plays blasty casters, ever. If a spell doesn't roll dice, he probably doesn't learn it. I think he said that he is currently getting +3 per damage die rolled. We're a level 14 party. His Scorching Ray alone is pretty impressive, so long as the thing he's fighting isn't resistant/immune.

[Malroth]

Invisible Spell + Obscuring mist/Fog cloud/Stinking Cloud etc Hard counter for See invisible/True seeing units, Blind the people who can see invisible stuff while getting everybody else slightly damp

[Karoht]

So basically give them the catch 22. Be screwed by True Seeing, or be screwed without it?
I like it.