Gestalt ultimate gish

[starship1]

check this build and provide comments please.

Paladin of Tyranny // Sorcerer
Favored Soul// Sorcerer
Favored Soul// Sorcerer
Favored Soul// Sorcerer
Favored Soul// Paladin of Tyranny
Paladin of Tyranny // Mystic Theurge
Paladin of Tyranny // Mystic Theurge
Paladin of Tyranny // Mystic Theurge
Blackguard// Mystic Theurge
Blackguard// Mystic Theurge
Blackguard// Mystic Theurge
Blackguard// Mystic Theurge
Shadow Dancer// Mystic Theurge
Blackguard// Mystic Theurge
Shadow Dancer// Mystic Theurge
Abjurant Champion// Thaumaturgist
Abjurant Champion// Thaumaturgist
Abjurant Champion// Thaumaturgist
Abjurant Champion// Thaumaturgist
Abjurant Champion// Thaumaturgist

Full BAB
Charisma casting
With a 20 in Cha you have +10 to saves

19th level Sorcerer and Favored Soul casting

2 special mounts, a mount and companion, or UBERmount

minor Blackguard spellcasting

HIPS and other Shadow Dancer goodies

other assorted goodies

What feats should i take?
races? spells from core known? skill point expendature?

[mregecko]

Dual progression classes like MT aren't usually permitted in gestalt, I believe?

[danzibr]

Dual progression classes like MT aren't usually permitted in gestalt, I believe?
Yeah... plus how do you get full BAB?

[Kumori]

You also can't advance two prestige classes at the same level.


A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you stop taking Paladin (of Tyranny) at any level, you can't go back to gaining levels in it later.

You're using a dual-progression prestige class, which is specifically not allowed for gestalt characters.

You're taking two prestige classes at the same level, which is specifically not allowed for gestalt characters.

For those wondering about the full BAB trick, if either class you take a a given level would give you +1 BAB, then your character gets +1 BAB for that level. Favored Soul 1// Sorcerer 2 gets +1 BAB from Sorcerer, Favored Soul 2// Sorcerer 3 gets +1 BAB from Favored Soul, etc. Something like a Fighter 1/ Wizard 19// Archivist 20 gets full BAB because of this, which is why most groups use the fractional BAB variant from UA with gestalt characters.

[starship1]

GM fiat on gestalt rules as well as paladin, it doesnt fit the setting and other major NPCs already presented. I get full BAb from care fully arranging levels like this

+1 from pally
+1 from sorc
+1 from fvd soul
+1 from fvd soul
+1 from pally
+1 from pally
+1 from pally
+1 from pally
+1 from Blackguard
+1 from Blackguard
+1 from Blackguard
+1 from Blackguard
+1 from Mystic Theurge
+1 from Blackguard
+1 from Shadow Dancer
+1 from Abjurant champ
+1 from Abjurant champ
+1 from Abjurant champ
+1 from Abjurant champ
+1 from Abjurant champ

[Fouredged Sword]

You cannot progress 2 PRC's by default gestalt rules, and duel progression classes are discouraged. If your DM has allowed this, and evil characters then this build looks fine.

Alternatively, ignoring the above restrictions, have you considered the following?

Wizard 5 // spell thief 5
wizard 1 // Trapsmith 1
Wizard 1 // Swiftblade 1
Trapsmith 2 // Swiftblade 2
Abjurent Champion 7 // swiftblade 7
Abjurent Champion 2 // trapsmith 2
Abjurent Champion 1 // Spellthief 1
Wizard 1 // Spellthief 1

three casting pools, timestop as a 6th level spell. 20th level wizard, 5th level trapsmith (really good stuff here), and a spattering of spellthief casting (fuel for arcane strike). Your caster level is something like 40 or so due and you can cast in light armor due to master spellthief. A free standard action each round. Get a cohort through leadership to be an archivist who's sole reason to live is as a pool of divine spells you can steal and cast (18th level gives you 9ths). Pick up craven to add to damage, as well as knowledge devotion for added giggles.

[eggs]

I don't think I've ever seen fractional base attack omitted from gestalt rules. Because 19/20 BA Commoner 1/Sorcerer 19//Wizard 20s are silly.

[starship1]

At eggs: huh? what is fractional BAB?

At sword: in my universe, all characters can only have levels in one class not in the SRD, in this case Abjurant Champion

[*.*.*.*]

I would ditch most of the blackguard levels for some levels in Hexblade for Mettle and Arcane Resistance. Getting some levels in arcane duelist for charisma to AC would be beneficial(and maybe a one level dip into Mystic Wanderer for it again).

[starship1]

I need those levels for full BAB as well as an UBER mount. this character is designed to be a truly evil spell caster king who rose to power by slaughtering all other candidates in melee combat e.g. (no spells).

What feat and traits would you reccommend? he's human with 2 flaws

[mregecko]

At sword: in my universe, all characters can only have levels in one class not in the SRD, in this case Abjurant Champion

Just a suggestion, but it makes it a lot easier for us to give tips and critiques if we understand the parameters we're working in first.

These (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) are the rules for gestalt normally. Fractional BAB is a FAR more logical system for gestalt in general.

Fractional BAB is also from Unearthed Arcana, and is a variant rule. Each class or PrC grants either +1bab (like fighters), +2/3bab (like clerics), or +1/2 bab (like wizards).

So if you take 10 random wizardy-PrC's, your BAB isn't hosted to be +0, but instead is +5.

If you're doing Gestalt, you take the higher number of the two sides of your progression at each level.

-- G

[danzibr]

Man... this brings me back to some heated debates.

I think in the end we decided (like others have said) something like Fighter 1/Wizard 19//Psion 20 would indeed not have a BAB of +20. I'm not sure it's a "trick" to get to BAB +20 (no offense Biffoniacus_Furiou! That's just what I recall).

[blazinghand]

Man... this brings me back to some heated debates.

I think in the end we decided (like others have said) something like Fighter 1/Wizard 19//Psion 20 would indeed not have a BAB of +20. I'm not sure it's a "trick" to get to BAB +20 (no offense Biffoniacus_Furiou! That's just what I recall).

Yeah almost all Gestalt rules use "fractional BAB" where each level, you gain the stronger BAB but in fraction form, then round down.

So for example,
Fgt 1 / Psn 1 -> 1 BAB from fighter => 1 BAB total
Wiz 1 / Psn 1 -> 1/2 BAB from Wizard or Psion => 1.5 BAB total
Wiz 1 / Psn 1 -> 1/2 BAB from Wizard or Psion => 2 BAB total
Wiz 1 / Psn 1 -> 1/2 BAB from Wizard or Psion => 2.5 BAB total
Wiz 1 / Psn 1 -> 1/2 BAB from Wizard or Psion => 3 BAB total
Wiz 1 / Psn 1 -> 1/2 BAB from Wizard or Psion => 3.5 BAB total
Wiz 1 / Psn 1 -> 1/2 BAB from Wizard or Psion => 4 BAB total

this is how my group has always run gestalt

[Kumori]

I find a simpler way to do BAB and Saves fairly, other than fractional, is to determine at each level if you would get Good, Average, or Poor, and then total those up. In the OP's case, he'd get 15 levels of Good BAB (+15) and 5 levels of Average (+3), for a total BAB of 18.

edit And in the above post's example, 1 level of good and 6 levels of poor is +4 BAB. With BAB, it's pretty much the same as fractional, but with saves, it can be quite different.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Max Intimidate with the Never Outnumbered skill trick (CS) and the feat Imperious Command (DotU). Get armor with the Fearsome property (DotU) so you can demoralize as a move action instead of a standard action. If you go Human (or anything with the human subtype), pick up Dreadful Wrath (PGtF) and maybe also Able Learner (RoD). I'd also pick up Fell Frighten Spell (LM) and Easy/Practical Metamagic (Dragon 325/RotD) to help keep opponents scattered while he finishes them off one at a time. Fell Drain Spell (LM) is just amazing with Fire Shield (both versions) and Death Armor (SC), since opponents will receive negative levels every time they hit him.

I'd go Illumian (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a&page=2) with the Naenhoon runeword so he can spend turn attempts to Persist two of his arcane spells each day. Also include DMM: Persist with plenty of Night Sticks (LM). If you get enough of those you may want to consider Southern Magician (RoF), which allows some of your arcane spells to be cast as though they were divine spells, which in turn allows you to DMM: Persist some Sorcerer spells.

Take Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm), since intelligent items are treated as constructs it will remain functional in antimagic and dead magic areas and is not susceptible to dispelling or disjunction. The item can take actions every turn as a creature, and it can activate its own abilities so for example if you give it a special purpose and the at-will 10d6 Lightning Bolt the item can spam that every round independent of the wielder's actions. Also note that he can upgrade the item himself as though he possessed all the proper feats, so he can add as many intelligent item abilities to it as he can afford to pay for.

Definitely take Darkstalker (LoM) if you're going for some stealth capability. The spell Shadow Form (SC) is just amazing for that and has a few utility benefits as well. There are quite a few ambush feats in CS that trade sneak attack dice for inflicting debuffs on your attacks.

Power Attack and Arcane Strike (CW) should be obvious choices, plus Divine Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineMight) and maybe Law Devotion (CC) and possibly other devotion feats. Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) is quite good, especially since you get an extra attack from Improved Trip when using it.

Get a custom Runestaff (MIC p224) with all of his long duration buffs on it so he doesn't have to waste any spells known on them. He can even put spells on there from other class spell lists and make a DC 20 UMD check when he attunes to it each day to cast them all day as though they were on his list.

Get a Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell and learn Energy Immunity (SC) and Superior Resistance (SC). Every other day cast Energy Immunity three times with the rod, so each lasts 48 hours. On the days in between cast Energy Immunity twice and Superior Resistance once with the rod, so each of those will last 48 hours. This gives him continual immunity to all five energy types and a +6 Enhancement bonus to saving throws for only the cost of that rod and three 6th level FS spell slots each day.

A Persistent Fell Drain Fell Frighten Thunderlance with Greater Magic Weapon +5 is an extremely strong primary melee weapon. However, a manufactured weapon with the Wrathful Healing property (Enemies and Allies) will heal him for half the total damage he deals with every hit. He can wear +X Twilight (PH2) Mithral Breastplate with a Thistledown Suit (RotW) for 0% arcane spell failure. Cast Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire (CM) every day for heavy fortification. Check this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) for effects he should have, but keep in mind that most of those can be replace with spell buffs.

[Arcanist]

in my universe, all characters can only have levels in one class not in the SRD, in this case Abjurant Champion

Well in my universe Karsus never casted Karsus' Avatar and the Netherese conquered all of Abier-Toril after killing all the Phaerimm and eventually fell due to everyone in the plane choosing to worship Archwizards instead of actual gods, causing Mystral to vanish and the weave failing permanently... Doesn't mean it actually happened though (no matter how awesome it would be...:smallfrown:)

[eggs]

Well in my universe Karsus never casted Karsus' Avatar and the Netherese conquered all of Abier-Toril after killing all the Phaerimm and eventually fell due to everyone in the plane choosing to worship Archwizards instead of actual gods, causing Mystral to vanish and the weave failing permanently... Doesn't mean it actually happened though (no matter how awesome it would be...:smallfrown:)
Am I misunderstanding this post if I interpret it to mean that game-specific rules and fiction are irrelevant if they don't occur in officially printed materials? (for whatever definition of "official" strikes your fancy)

Disregarding houserules means giving unusable advice. The OP's playing by a weird mix of overly permissive rules and prohibitive sources, but giving advice for strict rules/unlimited sources isn't going to help anybody.

But that raises the question: how are Favored Soul and Abjurant Champion legal in the same build? Is it by a rule that could be extrapolated further?

And bringing that all back onto topic, fractional BA isn't actually the default rule; I just brought it up because this is kind of silly.

When the OP says "UBERmount," what's going on there? This character should have a level 5 Paladin's mount, level 4 Sorcerer's familiar and an 11 HD Blackguard horse - none of which are particularly powerful or bear much resemblance to the ubermount build. (If you mean Thaumaturgist's Planar Cohort, that makes a bit more sense, but could you lay out what sort of cohort you've chosen?)

As far as the feats the OP should take, even with flaws and human race, aren't 8/10 feats committed to various prerequisites? I'd want to use the Paladin's rebuke on something - probably one of Travel Devotion, Law Devotion or Divine Spell Power - and to use the other feat on something that integrates melee and spellcasting - depending on Smiting Spell's implementation, either it (if it's not ruled to lose the usual extra attack for casting a touch spell) or Minor Shapeshift for its temp HP battery.

[Arcanist]

Am I misunderstanding this post if I interpret it to mean that game-specific rules and fiction are irrelevant if they don't occur in officially printed materials? (for whatever definition of "official" strikes your fancy)

Disregarding houserules means giving unusable advice. The OP's playing by a weird mix of overly permissive rules and prohibitive sources, but giving advice for strict rules/unlimited sources isn't going to help anybody.

But that raises the question: how are Favored Soul and Abjurant Champion legal in the same build? Is it by a rule that could be extrapolated further?

I'm stating that just because you disagree with the rules, doesn't mean they stop holding any value and that you can simply ignore them and move on. If you do intend to modify the rules, have the decency to at least stand up to the fact that you are creating a house rule.

I should have used a better example in all fairness :smalltongue:

[starship1]

I totally agree, this is a homebrew rule tailored to the wishes of everyone at my table. all eight of us agree that this rule allows a little bit of flexibility in a "Core only" game. You can have up to five levels in one non-core class. lots of feats are spent on Pre-reques, but I only feel one doesnt add to the build: improved sunder (Blackguard). To qualify for Abjurant Champ I'm usint the favored souls free weapon focus from he diety (a custom deity of evil and war that uses greatswords)



Why aren't Abjurant Champ and Favored soul legal in the same build?

[starship1]

Disregarding houserules means giving unusable advice. The OP's playing by a weird mix of overly permissive rules and prohibitive sources, but giving advice for strict rules/unlimited sources isn't going to help anybody.

But that raises the question: how are Favored Soul and Abjurant Champion legal in the same build? Is it by a rule that could be extrapolated further?



When the OP says "UBERmount," what's going on there? This character should have a level 5 Paladin's mount, level 4 Sorcerer's familiar and an 11 HD Blackguard horse - none of which are particularly powerful or bear much resemblance to the ubermount build. (If you mean Thaumaturgist's Planar Cohort, that makes a bit more sense, but could you lay out what sort of cohort you've chosen?)

As far as the feats the OP should take, even with flaws and human race, aren't 8/10 feats committed to various prerequisites? I'd want to use the Paladin's rebuke on something - probably one of Travel Devotion, Law Devotion or Divine Spell Power - and to use the other feat on something that integrates melee and spellcasting - depending on Smiting Spell's implementation, either it (if it's not ruled to lose the usual extra attack for casting a touch spell) or Minor Shapeshift for its temp HP battery.

thanks for the advice and I wonder if you were allowed to stack black guard and pally's horses. in the OP i specified that you could have two mounts, a mount and companion, or possibly an UBER-Mount. the familiar is nice, agreed.

How do you think this build would stand up to a party of 6 level 14 mid op gestalt chars?

we have:
Swift hunter//swift ambusher for level 30 some sneak attack and other goodies. role: skillmonkey and ranged destroyer. counter: use windwall liberally. exception to the core only rule.

Druid//cleric can we say spontanious casting of any thing you need? libberally applies heals and summons to any fight, as well as being our information gatherer. uses the cloistered cleric and druid variant that gets Wis to AC in exchange for wild shape. domains: summoner, knowledge and oracle

Uber charger: feat rogue// fighter: is half giant on one side, has bunches of psionic feats. this combo plays like Anime

Warlock//binder exception to the core only rule. hellfire claw-lock

tibbet beguiler: hold over from previous campaign, no gestalt or core only rules apply.

mini-batman wizard//archivist: sigh... he tries, but has the worst rolls ever, ive never seen him roll above a 7 on anything other than a d%

[Heliomance]

GM fiat on gestalt rules as well as paladin, it doesnt fit the setting and other major NPCs already presented. I get full BAb from care fully arranging levels like this

+1 from pally
+1 from sorc
+1 from fvd soul
+1 from fvd soul
+1 from pally
+1 from pally
+1 from pally
+1 from pally
+1 from Blackguard
+1 from Blackguard
+1 from Blackguard
+1 from Blackguard
+1 from Mystic Theurge
+1 from Blackguard
+1 from Shadow Dancer
+1 from Abjurant champ
+1 from Abjurant champ
+1 from Abjurant champ
+1 from Abjurant champ
+1 from Abjurant champ

Yeah, that's not how gestalt BAB works. If you're not using fractional BAB, you tot up the BAB from the two sides independently, then use whichever one's better, I'm pretty sure.

[eggs]

Why aren't Abjurant Champ and Favored soul legal in the same build?
I ask because of the statement, "At sword: in my universe, all characters can only have levels in one class not in the SRD, in this case Abjurant Champion, " while Favored Soul is also a class from outside the SRD.

If there are more nuances to that houserule than that, they would be very useful to know.

I wonder if you were allowed to stack black guard and pally's horses. in the OP i specified that you could have two mounts, a mount and companion, or possibly an UBER-Mount.
There's nothing allowing Paladin or Blackguard mounts to stack. I believe there's a feat in one of the dragon magazines that stacks Mount and Familiar benefits, but that doesn't really make the familiar any better, even with the gestalt.

Unless there's a houserule going on (and those would be relevant to mention), this isn't going to have the possibility of being an ubermount build in the way people normally mean.

Yeah, that's not how gestalt BAB works. If you're not using fractional BAB, you tot up the BAB from the two sides independently, then use whichever one's better, I'm pretty sure.
Gestalt doesn't actually have "sides"; they're just an easy way to model things. I don't think the OP's wrong as far as the written rules, even if they are silly.

(Many of the Gestalt rules stop making any sense as soon as multiclassing is thrown into the mix, so pretty much any implementation of multiclass rules is just making things up - there's a lot of room to put weird rules into place without being demonstrably incorrect.)

[zlefin]

some of the blackguard / pally of tyranny stuff won't stack.
2 auras of despair won't stack since they have the same name;
it really shoudln't give cha to saves twice, while the names may be different, taht's probably because they didn't bother to have the evil pally variants rename divine grace to dark blessing; because they weren't worried abotu obscure cases like this. It's really the same ability so it wouldn't stack.


as for facing the party - it should be fine as long as you only build mid-op, or maybe low op; having dual 9 casting is awfully easy to maek quite powerful even fi your'e not trying to.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Heck, with those houserules, you could have a 9/9/9 (arcane/divine/psionic) caster using Mystic Theurge, UrPriest (as your one out-of-SRD source) and Cerebramancer.

With DMM Persist (using the same source as UrPriest, Complete Divine, and SRD materials for Persist Spell), you still have full BAB (from Divine Power), better combat ability (Righteous Might), insanely powerful effectively-epic weapons and armor (purchase equipment with an effective +10, but only have a static of +1 with +9 in enhancements... then GMW/MV), and access to just about any effect you'd ever want.

Edit: Actually, you could get Dark invocations with Warlock and Eldritch Disciple too, if you could get an exception to the 'one our of SRD source' as most of the listed examples have.

[starship1]

heh, i forgot favored soul wasnt on there, good catch.
(waves hand) gm fiated away.

thats actually the build of the BBEG of this campaign. but with a couple other prestiges thrown in.

its been talked about around the table and the palidan and blackguard stuff stacks.

[Snowbluff]

You know, if you have Gestalt... Swiftblade could help you make use of anything really... What's the point of Triple 9s if you can't cast 3 spells/round?

Are you allowed Web Material?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You know, if you have Gestalt... Swiftblade could help you make use of anything really... What's the point of Triple 9s if you can't cast 3 spells/round?

Using them for different things. Having literally all the tools in the game available to you. And being able to come up with silly combos.

Plus, being a triple9 caster kinda comes with being able to completely break the action economy. Psion is particularly good at getting multiple turns per turn. Temporal Acceleration, Fission, Schism... fun times. Toss in Celerity and you've got plenty of turns per turn to do whatever you like.

Also, a lot of it can be buffing as well, layering protectives upon protectives, with Dispelling Buffers on top of those. Cleric is particularly good at that, making you an effective Gish build without needing to worry about BAB and such. Buffing is good action economy because it happens before the fight starts.

So yea... that's the point of being a triple nine caster.

[Snowbluff]

Using them for different things. Having literally all the tools in the game available to you. And being able to come up with silly combos.

Plus, being a triple9 caster kinda comes with being able to completely break the action economy. Psion is particularly good at getting multiple turns per turn. Temporal Acceleration, Fission, Schism... fun times. Toss in Celerity and you've got plenty of turns per turn to do whatever you like.

Also, a lot of it can be buffing as well, layering protectives upon protectives, with Dispelling Buffers on top of those. Cleric is particularly good at that, making you an effective Gish build without needing to worry about BAB and such. Buffing is good action economy because it happens before the fight starts.

So yea... that's the point of being a triple nine caster.

Valid, but Wishes and Miracles (as well as similiar spells) can be use to replicate spells between lists, and Erudite can be used to cast Arcane Spells.

Where can I find Dispelling Buffer?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Valid, but Wishes and Miracles (as well as similiar spells) can be use to replicate spells between lists, and Erudite can be used to cast Arcane Spells.

Where can I find Dispelling Buffer?

Dispelling Buffer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispellingBuffer.htm). Hence why I throw in psionics. Depending on your specialization, may cost you a feat to pick up, but preventing buffs from being dispelled is always handy.

Wishes cost lots of xp and miracles can always be declined, and neither one of them can access psionic powers. Furthermore, triple 9's lets you get access to everything at once without needing to expend 9th level spell slots on 4th level effects from a different spell list.

[Snowbluff]

Dispelling Buffer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispellingBuffer.htm). Hence why I throw in psionics. Depending on your specialization, may cost you a feat to pick up, but preventing buffs from being dispelled is always handy.

Nice. It's only a +5, but +5 is a lot in the realm o' Dispels, especially considering the harsh caps on Dispel and Greater Dispel.


Wishes cost lots of xp and miracles can always be declined, and neither one of them can access psionic powers. Furthermore, triple 9's lets you get access to everything at once without needing to expend 9th level spell slots on 4th level effects from a different spell list.

Granted, as I said. There are other spells that help like Anyspell, as well. I personally think a Cleric does a better job making Wizard buffs redundant rather than vice versa.

I would just like to have some other things going for taking actions in-combat.