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View Full Version : Ten Boosts for BAB [3.5, Rule Change, PEACH]



Amechra
2012-10-11, 11:31 PM
Important Initial Note: In this post, any time BAB is referred to, it only applies to BAB gained naturally through a character's level progression, and not through class features, magic items, or other such effects.

Firstly, whenever a beneficial spell is being cast on a creature, they may expend an attack of opportunity to increase the caster level of the spell by 1, ignoring the normal maximum on caster level. This caster level increase only benefits that particular creature. Each time you gain the Advancement ability, the bonus from this ability increases by +1.

Example: A 1st level Cleric casts Cure Light Wounds on a 2nd level Fighter, healing him for 1d8+2 HP, due to an Attack of Opportunity spent by the Fighter.

Secondly, a creature may expend an attack of opportunity to be treated as if they had 1 more HD than they actually do for the purpose of any effects that either only affect creatures below a certain number of HD, or that can only affect a certain amount of HD worth of creatures. Each time a creature gains the Advancement ability, this bonus increases by 1 effective HD.

Example: A 4th level Fighter is effectively immune to the effects of the Sleep spell. A 2nd level Fighter counts as if he had 3 HD for the purposes of Sleep and similar effects.

Thirdly, all creatures that can use spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities uses their character level as their caster level. The only way to exceed this amount is through the use of the first ability mentioned here.

Fourthly, all iterative attacks due to BAB inflict a non-cumulative penalty to subsequent attacks of -5. This means that a character with BAB +20 would get an attack sequence of +20/+15/+15/+15.

Fifth, the Total Defense action is replaced by the effects of the Combat Expertise feat. Any character may use Power Attack, Stone Power, or Combat Expertise with a penalty of up to either their BAB or 5, whichever is lower, without taking a feat; taking any of the above feats allows you to take a penalty of up to your BAB, regardless of how high it is, with that particular feat's benefit only.

Sixth, any (Ex) ability that allows a save uses 10+1/2 BAB+relevant modifiers (does not include 1/2 or full class level) as it's DC, unless the normal method of deriving the DC would result in a higher DC.

Seventh, a creature gains an additional +1 to any physical ability score of their choice, just as if they had increased their ability score through gaining levels, every time they reach a VB value that is a multiple of 4.

Example: A 4th level Fighter gets a +2 to Strength, using both their bonus from VB and their bonus from gaining a level.

Eighth, for each time that a creature has the Advancement ability, increase the bonuses that they gain from masterwork armor, shields, and weapons gain due to being Masterwork by 1.

Ninth, a creature has 1/2 their BAB in attacks of opportunity, rounded down, minimum 1. Combat Expertise does not exist, and you may make a 5' step at any time by spending an Attack of Opportunity (you still gain one free 5' step each round, and still can't make 5' steps and move in the same round.)

Tenth, Combat Techniques. Glorious, Glorious Combat Techniques (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7688&sid=b109053ff75f8279aad7a481c5e504ba) (I'm still working on the ones in the second post.)

Amechra
2012-10-11, 11:32 PM
Why the changes?

Because this way, BAB represents your overall skill as a warrior, rather than just being "I add this to my attack bonus. Yay."

Can I please get people's opinions on each?

Der_DWSage
2012-10-12, 02:19 PM
Well, just like any other change to a system, it has its ups and downs. Let's start with the one that bugged me most...


Thirdly, all creatures that can use spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities has a caster level equal to 1/2 their character level plus the ability score modifier they use for bonus spells per day, up to a maximum of their character level. A character cannot have a caster level higher than their character level.

I say thee nay to this one. This is just going to increase the likelihood of gish builds, since a 5 Wizard/5 Fighter with a 20 intelligence is going to still cast as a 10th level Wizard (Note how you specified character level, not class level that gives them casting ability.) while also benefiting from all the bonuses to VB that you've given. It also penalizes pure casters, since they need an extra +2 in their casting stat per 3 levels to match their own level-not necessarily a bad thing in its own right, but I'm always against penalizing, when other classes could simply grow. And as a third thing, you're making GMs do more work, since they now have to recalculate every monster in the manual.

Moving on!


Firstly, whenever a beneficial spell is being cast on a creature, the spell is treated as if it had a caster level of either the actual caster level, or the target creature's VB, whichever would be better at the time. This benefit also applies to any Spell Completion or Spell Trigger item used on a creature. If the spell affects multiple creatures, and the number of creatures affected is dependent on the caster level of the spell, the spell uses the caster's CL to determine the number of creatures, and then checks the creatures' VBs.

I'm...iffy on this one too. I'd be alright with this being applied to HD rather than VB, since that's still a global change, but as it stands? 'Hey, I'm going to cast Invisibility Sphere on Rogkar the Barbaric...because it'll last longer on him than it will if I maintain it myself.' It makes a system change that's larger than cure spells, and will result in in-game actions that make people wonder about the world. I'd suggest revising this one.


Fifth, Combat Expertise now grants the benefits of Improved Combat Expertise, and the base effects of the feat replace Defensive Fighting. Power Attack for up to 5 points of attack bonus (maximum) is now an option open to everyone, as is Stone Power up to 5 points of attack bonus (maximum); both of their respective feats change to simply remove this maximum amount.

I'd recommend just cutting down on the wording of this one. 'Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Stone Fist, and all similar feats no longer have a maximum bonus or maximum penalty.'


Eighth, once a creature has reached +5 VB, and every 4 points of VB after that, the benefits you gain from masterwork weapons, armor, and shields all increase by 1.

I assume that you meant this to be bonuses to hit and Armor Check penalties? A little bit of confirmation, please. Especially since magical weapons and armor are all, technically, masterwork.


Ninth, a creature has 1/2 their natural VB in attacks of opportunity, rounded down, minimum 1. Combat Reflexes does not exist, but Evasive Reflexes (you may 5' instead of taking an attack of opportunity) does exist.

...Why take out Combat Reflexes? Its use is lessened, but what if you have that low-level Ranger that's trained in fighting hordes and hordes of Goblins, cutting them down as they come? Or what about the Rogue, and his lower VB? He has to be level 6 before he gets his second attack of opportunity, whereas he could have the feat and have 2-4 right out the starting gate!



On the whole, I kinda like the idea, as it brings high-level warriors up to match high-level mages in the defensive departments, and the iterative attacks are nothing to sneeze at. However, it's still lacking a little bit offensively, as well as the more miscellaneous uses that typically come out of this type of fix. (Shields being boosted in usefulness, armor becoming less penalizing, becoming more defensive vs. magic and large damaging effects such as dragon breath, etc.)

In short:Good idea, a little wobbly in execution. But that's what PEACH is for, eh?

Amechra
2012-10-12, 02:49 PM
Have you taken a look at the Combat Techniques yet? The reason for removing Combat Reflexes is to balance those out; otherwise, dexterity become much, much, much better. They also supply some mobility boosts and the like.

The first part you had a problem with: I was originally just going to go with CL=Character Level, no pluses to that (penalties are possible, though), final destination, have a nice day.

Because, frankly, it's easier for multiclassing. And isn't imbalancing in the same sense that, say, giving everyone IL equal to their character level would be (CL only adjust the powers of spells; it doesn't affect the level of spell that you get.)

I'm... not sure why went for something more complicated. I'll change that after class.

As for the duration thing... yeah, that's a not-so-subtle way of making it worth a caster's time to buff their allied BSF; most of the really good buffs are self only, anyway.

And, if caster level is equal to level, then we can just go "hey, this just goes to show that combat prowess is awesome."

Fifth basically means:

"Anyone can Power Attack, use Combat Expertise, or use Stone Power up to a -5 penalty; it takes the feats to uncap that. Oh, and anything that referenced Defensive Fighting instead references Combat Expertise" (I'll have to revise War Devotion. Oh well.)

Eighth only applies to the +1 to hit, -1 ACP thing that being Masterwork supplies you. However, if you were, say, using Seerow's masterwork system, I would suggest just granting additional slots.

I'll do some feat rewrites later.

Quellian-dyrae
2012-10-12, 03:19 PM
I like most of these, and especially like the first, sixth, seventh, and eighth. I didn't read over all the combat techniques, but the ones I did look cool. I'll second that caster level change isn't so good (it's less a boost to BAB and more a nerf to casting, and the type of spell that really gets hit hardest is direct damage, which is the type in least need of a nerf), but setting CL equal to character level is a house rule I use myself, so I'd endorse that.

Realms of Chaos
2012-10-12, 04:43 PM
So this is the rewrite for the combat system I've heard you mention (or at least some piece of it). Let's see what we've got here.


Important Initial Note: In this post, I'll be referring to a creature's "Veteran Bonus." Your Veteran Bonus (henceforth VB) is equal to your BAB from HD only. If you were to later boost your BAB through spells, items, or other effects, your Veteran Bonus would not increase to match.

A negative level penalizes you by 1 point of VB, much like how a caster is penalized a point of CL.

Hmmm... I don't have a problem with the end results of this fix but the way in which they are presented seems incredibly weird to me. The thing about randomly creating a new bonus like "veteran bonus", in addition to loading the game with more jargon, is that PCs are going to turn around and ask their DMs if they can craft items to boost their veteran bonus.

At the end of the day, what it seems that you want to get across is that BAB can only be acquired through your HD and can't be improved through magic, items, feats, class features, and similar sources. If you're already listing fixes for BAB, why not explicitly list the previous sentence as fix #11? The change would remove a small number of spells that you seem to have a lot of trouble with but would otherwise lead to the same result without adding more jargon or having players try to render the change moot.



Firstly, whenever a beneficial spell is being cast on a creature, the spell is treated as if it had a caster level of either the actual caster level, or the target creature's VB, whichever would be better at the time. This benefit also applies to any Spell Completion or Spell Trigger item used on a creature. If the spell affects multiple creatures, and the number of creatures affected is dependent on the caster level of the spell, the spell uses the caster's CL to determine the number of creatures, and then checks the creatures' VBs.

Example: A 1st level Cleric casts Cure Light Wounds on a 2nd level Fighter, healing him for 1d8+2 HP.

This boost seems more weird than anything else. I can see that it was made so a warriors could subsist on normally low-CL potions (which grow with them) in absence of a real spellcaster but I'm not seeing any particular logic behind it. I'm not saying that it's not nice but it seems kind of out there when you think about it and I wouldn't have nailed it as one of the things BAB needed to have in order to seem useful.


Secondly, a creature adds their VB minus one-half of their character level (rounded down) to their HD for the purposes of determining the efficacy of effects such as Sleep or an Aura of Fear which alter their effects based on HD.

Example: A 4th level Fighter is immune to the effects of the Sleep spell. A 2nd level Fighter counts as if he had 3 HD for the purposes of Sleep and similar effects.

Um... this makes those types of effects pretty much pointless at higher levels (even those with lowest BAB), when enemies with access to blasphemy or similar effects have a CL at most equal to its CR + 2.

At low levels, meanwhile, the effects seem a bit too subtle. As you pointed out, even a full-BAB fighter only gains immunity to Sleep 1 level earlier than normal.

Maybe there's a couple of spells with a nice middle ground like the 10 HD of Deep Slumber but those things are awfully few in number so this ability seems more weird than anything else.


Thirdly, all creatures that can use spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities has a caster level equal to 1/2 their character level plus the ability score modifier they use for bonus spells per day, up to a maximum of their character level. A character cannot have a caster level higher than their character level.

Example: A 12th level Cleric with a Wisdom of 20 would have a caster level of 11.

Boosting BAB by comparison, eh? I hear ya, I hear ya. :smallwink:

As others have pointed out, however, this may be a bit too much of a nerf even when you consider that your second change will let all of your buffs on tanks act at "full CL" (something that I only just realized).

For that matter, I'm honestly confused at why this restriction was brought in at all. Caster level isn't tied to the vast versatility of spells or save DCs so all that you're really doing is hurting Gishes (who can't invest heavily enough in both physical and mental stats) and Blasters (who rely very heavily on CL).


Fourthly, all iterative attacks due to BAB inflict a non-cumulative penalty to subsequent attacks of -5. This means that a character with BAB +20 would get an attack sequence of +20/+15/+15/+15.

No problems here.


Fifth, Combat Expertise now grants the benefits of Improved Combat Expertise, and the base effects of the feat replace Defensive Fighting. Power Attack for up to 5 points of attack bonus (maximum) is now an option open to everyone, as is Stone Power up to 5 points of attack bonus (maximum); both of their respective feats change to simply remove this maximum amount.

Not exactly a BAB boost but I like it. :smallsmile:


Sixth, any (Ex) ability that allows a save that has some sort of offensive effect may use a creature's VB instead of their class level for the purposes of calculating the DC (the DC therefor becoming 10+1/2 VB+relevant ability score.)

You can probably remove the requirement about needing to be an offensive effect. If an extraordinary effect requires a saving throw that the target doesn't voluntarily fail, being offensive is kind of implied.

As for the fix itself, I'm not sure how I feel about it. :smallconfused:


Seventh, a creature gains an additional +1 to any physical ability score of their choice, just as if they had increased their ability score through gaining levels, every time they reach a VB value that is a multiple of 4.

Example: A 4th level Fighter gets a +2 to Strength, using both their bonus from VB and their bonus from gaining a level.

Still not quite sure what to think about this but I think that I like it. It makes sense and doesn't hurt anything too badly.


Eighth, once a creature has reached +5 VB, and every 4 points of VB after that, the benefits you gain from masterwork weapons, armor, and shields all increase by 1.

This one seems a bit random but after creating a combat technique along a similar vein, who am I to complain. For armor and shields, is this improving the AC bonus or the ACP reduction from being masterwork?


Ninth, a creature has 1/2 their natural VB in attacks of opportunity, rounded down, minimum 1. Combat Reflexes does not exist, but Evasive Reflexes (you may 5' instead of taking an attack of opportunity) does exist.

I can see why this change was made. Incidentally, is evasive reflexes still a feat or is it something for everyone now? After the power attack/combat expertise thing, it doesn't hurt to check.


Tenth, Combat Techniques. Glorious, Glorious Combat Techniques (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7688&sid=b109053ff75f8279aad7a481c5e504ba) (I'm still working on the ones in the second post.) All references to BAB in that document should be replaced by VB.

Well everything seems to be in order. :smallbiggrin:

Amechra
2012-10-12, 09:20 PM
I'll go through and start fixin' things up.

I fully realize that the CL nerf is silliness, and needs to be changed to CL=character level.

To go over each...

Important Note: Eh, I really just made up the term so that I would have to do more typing. I'll do a find and replace.

First: Yeah, it is wonky, but I still like the idea of a quick boost to stuff that makes it a good idea to use the buffs on the frontliners (instead of stacking them on yourself, and thus making the frontliners sad); I accept that this is not a very good idea. Maybe everyone gets the ability to "help out" casters, spending an AoO to give any buff cast on you a boost of +2 (or higher, even; scaling it from +1 at first level and then +1 each time you get Advancement might be a nice idea, since that's +5 CL (unrestricted by the level cap) that you can use to buff yourself.)

Second: This one is wonky as well; maybe go with a similar solution to the above, and let you spend an attack of opportunity to boost your effective HD by 1+1 for every 4 levels thereafter?

Third: Caster Level=character level. Monsters that have uber amounts of HD but cast like a spellcaster of X level do not get this boost (last thing we need is dragons with something like CL 26 when you have CL 12.)

Fifth: Technically it is a boost, since it let's you have a few meaningful options without having to spend feats on them (plus Defensive Fighting sucked. A lot. This consolidates it and Combat Expertise, which I feel is a pretty nice deal.)

Sixth: This exists because of, for example, the Knight, whose schtick (Knight's Challenge) becomes awful because nothing advances it. This also helps out a lot of PrCs in that the save for their effects, which otherwise just stop progressing once you leave the PrC; it's like smoothing things down a bit, for streamlining.

Eighth: The idea is that as you get better at fighting, you get better at using the tools of your trade. Armor and Shields, at their base, only increase the ACP reduction; however, for example, in Dragon there are a set of feats where you can increase the damage of a weapon, lower weight, and that kind of thing. If you used those, this would progress those too.

That's not even talking about some homebrewed masterwork systems... Where you might want to drop this rule.

Ninth: It's still a feat; it isn't a general enough "thing" that I can feel completely right handing it out to everyone. Though...

Eh, what could it hurt? You can't make a regular move action, which includes stuff like Charging (I'm fixing up the Combat Technique for that one :smallbiggrin:) and your AoOs are competing for resources...

Now, I have some stuff on the document that I need to fix up, so I'll step out for a bit, and...

Amechra
2012-10-12, 11:17 PM
Updating has been done. And it is glorious.

Thoughts? Also, any thoughts on any of the combat techniques?